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Re: HT-37 transformer failure due to rapid STBY-->OFF-->STBY
Hi all, What about combining a zero crossing switch with a soft start circuit giving a lower input voltage to the transformer for a handful of cycles before switching to fill voltage? Regards Lou VK3ALB On Wed, Jul 10, 2024 at 6:28?AM don Root via <drootofallevil=[email protected]> wrote:
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Re: HT-37 transformer failure due to rapid STBY-->OFF-->STBY
开云体育Halden, now that everybody has been silent, ??? I looked around and can’t find just how much magnetism is normally left in good transformer steel. Sketches in tutorials are not to scale and deceiving IMO. ?I recall real hysteresis curves from years ago, and ?there was a only a small amount of magnetization left.? Restoring it to zero is a tall order. ??The idea of removing magnetism is best displayed in tape head demagnetizers and such where the AC magnetizing force is gradually reduced. ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jim Whartenby via groups.io
Sent: Friday, July 5, 2024 2:54 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] HT-37 transformer failure due to rapid STBY-->OFF-->STBY ? Halden? I can't answer your question.? I don't know all of the pitfalls of using an SSR in place of a mechanical switch.? I don't know if there are any unintended consequences.? The SSR will turn ON and OFF at approximately the same part of the AC cycle every time so there may be an accumulative effect.? The random nature of a mechanical switch that has contact bounce would be very hard to repeat exactly and would be spread over a greater portion of the AC cycle.? ? Regards, Jim ? Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy ? ? On Thursday, July 4, 2024 at 03:48:33 PM CDT, HF via groups.io <incorridge@...> wrote: ? ? Hi Jim, -- don??? va3drl |
Re: SR-400 REPAIR MANUAL
开云体育Thank you, Walt!!? You are amazing with a ton of knowledge! ? Thank you, ? Mike W5CUL ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of waltcates
Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2024 10:40 AM To: HALLI IO GROUP <[email protected]> Subject: [HallicraftersRadios] SR-400 REPAIR MANUAL ? Just completed a rewrite of the SR-400 series repair manual. This update fills some holes in the transmitter fault analysis which includes a transmitter troubleshooting flow chart. Go to wd0gof.com for no cost download.?? ? ? Walt Cates, WD0GOF ? A majority of acceptance is not proof of correctness. ? |
SR-400 REPAIR MANUAL
开云体育
Just completed a rewrite of the SR-400 series repair manual. This update fills some holes in the transmitter fault analysis which includes a transmitter troubleshooting flow chart. Go to wd0gof.com for no cost download.??
Walt Cates, WD0GOF
?
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Re: Halicrafters SX17 transformer
John Download the Stancor transformer catalog from? Check top of page 12 for a formula to calculate the turns ratio for the interstage transformer. The values I used were: P = 0.15 watts to drive P-P 6V6s??bottom graph page 3 ????????????? ? 15 volts @ 0.01 amps Z sub L = 10k ohms,? E sub S = 38 volts I get 2.91:1 so it seems that a 3:1 voltage ratio is what is needed.? A-4723 seems to fit the bill.? YMMV! The center wire on the secondary winding is indeed a center tap and not a shield. Jim Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy
On Monday, July 8, 2024 at 03:13:25 PM CDT, John via groups.io <siloam@...> wrote:
[Edited Message Follows] A little more detain on this transformer. I found the code A-4931* on its side. I found some Standcor catalogs online with A-47xx numbers, but not A-49xx.* corrected. original post erroneously stated A-4932 I can also add that the DC resistance of the secondary is around 3.9k. Unfortunately with the primary being open and having no center tap, it is not possible to ascertain the turns ratio. There is a center wire, but since it connects to the chassis and there is no indication of a center ground on the circuit diagram, I am assuming that this connects to a shield. |
Re: Halicrafters SX17 transformer
开云体育John, if the existing one has been declared “grabage” you might assume that the failure is very near ?the coil end[s] and see if you can find the break and measure the ohms. And maybe be lucky and fix the connection. If nothing else, it is education. ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John via groups.io
Sent: Monday, July 8, 2024 4:13 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] Halicrafters SX17 transformer ? [Edited Message Follows] A little more detain on this transformer. I found the code A-4931* on its side. I found some Standcor catalogs online with A-47xx numbers, but not A-49xx. _._,_._,_ -- don??? va3drl |
Re: Halicrafters SX17 transformer
A little more detain on this transformer. I found the code A-4931* on its side. I found some Standcor catalogs online with A-47xx numbers, but not A-49xx.
* corrected. original post erroneously stated A-4932 I can also add that the DC resistance of the secondary is around 3.9k. Unfortunately with the primary being open and having no center tap, it is not possible to ascertain the turns ratio. There is a center wire, but since it connects to the chassis and there is no indication of a center ground on the circuit diagram, I am assuming that this connects to a shield. |
Re: Halicrafters SX17 transformer
I have not posted for a little while for various reasons but have returned to the SX17 project in the last few days and followed up on the previous suggestions. I am reasonably certain that the mains transformer is fine. I did some work in making the mains inlet wiring and transformer connections safe by adding in a couple of tag strips and terminating the wires on those rather than having a number of connections where the wires had been twisted together and in some cases rather poorly soldered.
Further investigation showed that the two Electrolytics in the cans were leaky. One of them was dragging the supply down by some 20%. The other failed shortly after the first was substituted. Once both were substituted, the correct voltages were present on the supply rails. There is no static or audio, but I have since established that the final 6V6 stage is working fine as it produces a clear tone when a signal is injected into one of the grids. There is also nothing much on headphones which are driven directly from the detector except for a slight mains buzz, indicating a problem prior to the audio stage. Further investigation revealed that the primary of transformer T5 is open. A 4.7k resistor had been placed across the contacts to provide the anode supply to the other valves. While that will have got the radio working and provided something of a workaround, the audio output from the receiver must have been compromised and weak. Of course, if the operator used the headphone jack, then that would have been unaffected. I am also curious why the DC supply to the anodes of the RF and IF stages was run through the transformer and not separately via a resistor, and the signal from the detector fed to the transformer via a suitable decoupling capacitor? Would this have been a cost decision? Looking further, the oscillator is working and voltages around valves in the RF and IF stages appear to be correct, but those around the detector and silencer are not and need further investigation. Lots of waxies in there so there is a strong possibility of a leaky capacitors somewhere in there. Incidentally, the tube voltages table, in the data for the 2nd RF amp and the 2nd IF amp show two voltages (2nd RF = 0 / 50; 2nd IF = .5 / 50). So I have a question: what needs to be On or Off? I get approximately 3V on both and tried turning various functions (AVC, ANL, Crystal, Receive/Send etc) on or off but it made no difference? The service information I have been able to download does not specify the characteristics of any of the transformers, including those in the audio stage, i.e TR5 and TR6. Might this this information available somewhere, specifically for T5? Or would anyone know what might be a suitable replacement? Alternatively, is there another way to work around the problem? |
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Re: HT-37 transformer failure due to rapid STBY-->OFF-->STBY
As far as I know, the inrush current problem was due to the limitations of vacuum tube rectifiers then in use.? Filter capacitors just do not care about the initial charging current.? At the instant of turn ON, the uncharged capacitor is modeled as a short circuit.? The only thing that limits this initial current flow is the copper resistance of the primary and secondary transformer windings and any intentional series resistance in the rectifier circuit.?? There is also the inductive reactance of the power transformer and of any filter inductors that want to keep the present current flow constant.? At turn ON, there is no current so the magnetic field rapidly builds up and creates a counter EMF to oppose the current change.? At turn OFF, that magnetic field then collapses and generates as high a voltage as is needed to keep the current flow constant.? This results in the high voltage arcing that one notices when a mechanical switch opens. Those that are really curious about what is happening in power supplies would benefit from the Radiotron Designers Handbook, 4th Edition.? It contains a wealth of information on this and other topics and will demystify the process.? A searchable PDF document can be found at the World Radio History site. Regards, Jim Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy
On Thursday, July 4, 2024 at 03:16:04 PM CDT, Scott Petersen <s-petersen@...> wrote:
I wonder if a MOV could be somehow used to soften the inrush, if not one perhaps 2 in some kind of toggle arrangement.
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of don Root <drootofallevil@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2024 2:56 PM To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] HT-37 transformer failure due to rapid STBY-->OFF-->STBY ?
Halden, your investigation is interesting and detailed. IMO, the DC [resistance only case, ignoring all inductances] is the extreme limit which won’t be reached. Inductance does not go away, especially in the wiring; and it is still there in the transformer, albeit quite reduced IF it reaches saturation. ?Core steel used in 60 Hz “power ” transformers is chosen to have soft magnetic steel, a low magnetic remnance, and a B-H curve with low hysteresis, so a fair bit of inductance remains, even IF the transformer is driven into saturation; like it most likely is when energizing at zero voltage crossovers. ?But there are some more recent high temperature cheapie transformers that have less steel, drive the flux into saturation, get hot with no load and tend to blow normal fuses when turns on, so old “typical” maximum inrush currents are not cast in stone any more. ? I don’t see how the stuff about “already be in positive saturation” that has be floating around ?has anything to do with any realistic enegization or re enegization of? a realistic power transformer, as the steel has little remnance. ? Yes it seems that the?? ?“STBY-->OFF-->STBY” failure mode has been overtaken by the SSR stuff, yet what caused circuit condition causes the failure has not been refined. Is ihr failure triggered when closing the power switch contacts, or opening them. Seems to me the old Halli warning was related to opening the switch, not closing! How much voltage spiking and or arcing takes place in the switch when it is opened under load as opposed to under standby? In the event that this is the problem, the solution might be to open the switch only near zero current--- so …….. ?don ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of HF via groups.io ? Thanks, all, for the comments and lessons!?
-- don??? va3drl |
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Re: HT-37 transformer failure due to rapid STBY-->OFF-->STBY
Halden? I can't answer your question.? I don't know all of the pitfalls of using an SSR in place of a mechanical switch.? I don't know if there are any unintended consequences.? The SSR will turn ON and OFF at approximately the same part of the AC cycle every time so there may be an accumulative effect.? The random nature of a mechanical switch that has contact bounce would be very hard to repeat exactly and would be spread over a greater portion of the AC cycle.? ? Regards, Jim Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy
On Thursday, July 4, 2024 at 03:48:33 PM CDT, HF via groups.io <incorridge@...> wrote:
Hi Jim, Thanks!? So, would an SSR that turns on at zero voltage and turns off at zero current put the core back to zero every time and prevent current surges at turn-on? Halden |
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Re: HT-37 transformer failure due to rapid STBY-->OFF-->STBY
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I usually work on tube audio, so we as a group have been installing movs to lessen the shock to transformers and filaments for a while, and filter caps when converted to s/s rectifiers
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of David Balma <balma.d@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2024 4:41 PM To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] HT-37 transformer failure due to rapid STBY-->OFF-->STBY ?
Scott, ? I worked on three phase power supplies that had some premature transformer failures. ? The engineers had us install MOVs across the primary windings for all three phases. ? Never seen another transformer failure afterwards. ? Dave W9HF ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Scott Petersen ? I wonder if a MOV could be somehow used to soften the inrush, if not one perhaps 2 in some kind of toggle arrangement. ? |
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Re: HT-37 transformer failure due to rapid STBY-->OFF-->STBY
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From:[email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Rick W4XA <myr748@...>
Sent:?Thursday, July 4, 2024 4:41 PM To:[email protected] <[email protected]> Subject:?Re: [HallicraftersRadios] HT-37 transformer failure due to rapid STBY-->OFF-->STBY ?
On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 11:56 AM, don Root wrote:
It appears that some experimentation could? in order. If you have a dual trace scope, you can easily measure the input voltage & current on the transformer primary and observe the phase difference between the 2 in real time and during switching events ?Also, since an SSR turns on & off @ zero voltage & current, It (if properly rated)? seems well suited for switching a transformer on and off.? Also, (with the exception of the Viking Valiant PTT circuit [AM Mode] and certain others) you almost never switch a transmitters transformer OFF when operating at rated current (max transmitter output) .? They're likely going to be operating at some median current like you might see in a receiver power supply or specifically in the HT-37 at only that current required to maintain filament current and bleeder-resistor current etc. From -page 2 of the OPTO22 data sheet? I have found them to work so well, that I am planning to replace the PTT relay in my Viking Valiant with one. (The Valiant PTT circuit "keys" it by literally keying 120AC on the plate transformer primary with a very "clanky" electro-mechanical relay).....? The plate voltage transformer/rectifier/filter circuit is switched on and off every time the PTT is pressed/released Halden, You mentioned using a Triac SSR's seem to have that covered. From the OPTO22 datasheet: ? -- 73/Rick W4XA __________________________________ All posts are created using OpenSuSE Leap 15.5 x64 Linux |
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Re: HT-37 transformer failure due to rapid STBY-->OFF-->STBY
开云体育Halden, that is common and in many forms you always see the reference It is easy here if you use email and indent [what I normally do] , I used to be able to do it on line, but my secret does not work any more. It can still be done using some copy and paste It seems that a snippet of what you are replying to often does the job…don ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of HF via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2024 5:17 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] HT-37 transformer failure due to rapid STBY-->OFF-->STBY ? FYI, in case my posts don't seem to be in logical order, it's because they aren't.? My messages appear on the forum in a sequence different from that in which I submitted them for posting.? Maybe I'm posting too often. -- don??? va3drl |
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Re: HT-37 transformer failure due to rapid STBY-->OFF-->STBY
开云体育Halden, very interesting and ?thoughtful comments getting into the nitty-gritty. Re the turning off part: The switch needs to? break any current and open the conduction path enough to withstand the voltage. Long-winded ..if there is no inductance, it is easy. If there lots of inductance and lots of amps, there is lots of energy stored in the inductance, and you have to dump the energy somewhere, usually into I?R and arcing and waiting for current to die to zero[very tough for DC switching] ????I have run on…? but energy in an inductance varies with the square of current, so at high current it is tough to break the circuit, or maybe it is tough on the switch. ? And going on to your wording/thinking, I am not much help, but as I recall, there is a hopefully small magnetizing current ?and flux that depends on the ac voltage, almost no matter the current. ??The primary MMF and current fight ?very hard to cancel the secondary MMF and current keeping the net flux in the core small [effective negative feedback].? All this is to say that ?your idea is tempting, but it gets more complex, ..for another future day , so? I have to stick with what’s at the top. ?don ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of HF via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2024 4:09 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] HT-37 transformer failure due to rapid STBY-->OFF-->STBY ? Hi Don, _._,_._,_ -- don??? va3drl |
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Re: HT-37 transformer failure due to rapid STBY-->OFF-->STBY
开云体育Rick , so have you or anyone looked at switch-off transients of the original switches? And also contact bounce on closing for other reasons? Re some SSRs see ?? ? pdf???? 3? -----?? Later they call for peak switching for transformers don ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Rick W4XA ? ………….It appears that some experimentation could? in order. -- don??? va3drl |
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Re: HT-37 transformer failure due to rapid STBY-->OFF-->STBY
FYI, in case my posts don't seem to be in logical order, it's because they aren't.? My messages appear on the forum in a sequence different from that in which I submitted them for posting.? Maybe I'm posting too often.
Halden VE7UTS |
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Re: HT-37 transformer failure due to rapid STBY-->OFF-->STBY
Hi Jim,
Thanks!? So, would an SSR that turns on at zero voltage and turns off at zero current put the core back to zero every time and prevent current surges at turn-on? Halden |
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Re: HT-37 transformer failure due to rapid STBY-->OFF-->STBY
Hi Don,
Thanks for bringing us back to the original question and for mentioning one of the options I hadn't listed!? Turning the transformer OFF at a particular time relative to the AC voltage cycle might cause a voltage spike as the flux collapses faster than during a regular cycle!? If that's what causes this failure, how would a pause in STBY mode mitigate it? Your point about low magnetic remanance interests me.? If low remanance means the amount of magnetization still present after removing voltage at the primary is low but persists indefinitely, then the timing for opening the switch might not affect inrush current next turn-on.? If low remanance means that the magnetization remains for a short time after power removal, then simply waiting a little while before turning the switch back on could avoid a heavy inrush current but probably not affect a turn-on HV spike at the secondary. Here's another idea about the possibility of a turn-on timing causing a voltage spike at the secondary.? If the remanent magnetic field has one polarization and the voltage at the moment of turn-on moves it towards the other polarity, then there's even more room for a fast change in flux, and the accompanying voltage spike. I think it's time to hook this transformer up to the storage 'scope and try a few things. Contemplating that setup (how shall I simulate loads on the secondaries?) raises another idea.? When filament secondaries are connected to cold filaments, the heavy current draw on those windings might load down the rapidly rising flux at turn-on, reducing the turn-on voltage spike magnitude.? Turn-on immediately after turn-off means no cold filaments would be available to do this. Cheers, Halden VE7UTS |
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Re: HT-37 transformer failure due to rapid STBY-->OFF-->STBY
开云体育Scott, ? I worked on three phase power supplies that had some premature transformer failures. ? The engineers had us install MOVs across the primary windings for all three phases. ? Never seen another transformer failure afterwards. ? Dave W9HF ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Scott Petersen
Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2024 3:16 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] HT-37 transformer failure due to rapid STBY-->OFF-->STBY ? I wonder if a MOV could be somehow used to soften the inrush, if not one perhaps 2 in some kind of toggle arrangement. ? |
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Re: HT-37 transformer failure due to rapid STBY-->OFF-->STBY
On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 11:56 AM, don Root wrote:
It appears that some experimentation could? in order. If you have a dual trace scope, you can easily measure the input voltage & current on the transformer primary and observe the phase difference between the 2 in real time and during switching events ?Also, since an SSR turns on & off @ zero voltage & current, It (if properly rated)? seems well suited for switching a transformer on and off.? Also, (with the exception of the Viking Valiant PTT circuit [AM Mode] and certain others) you almost never switch a transmitters transformer OFF when operating at rated current (max transmitter output) .? They're likely going to be operating at some median current like you might see in a receiver power supply or specifically in the HT-37 at only that current required to maintain filament current and bleeder-resistor current etc. From -page 2 of the OPTO22 data sheet? I have found them to work so well, that I am planning to replace the PTT relay in my Viking Valiant with one. (The Valiant PTT circuit "keys" it by literally keying 120AC on the plate transformer primary with a very "clanky" electro-mechanical relay).....? The plate voltage transformer/rectifier/filter circuit is switched on and off every time the PTT is pressed/released Halden, You mentioned using a Triac SSR's seem to have that covered. From the OPTO22 datasheet: ? -- 73/Rick W4XA __________________________________ All posts are created using OpenSuSE Leap 15.5 x64 Linux |