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"Irrational" outbursts of a 4yr old
#siblings
#partnership
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My 4 yr old DD is delightfully dramatic, excited about life, and open about her moment to moment feelings.
This is completely opposite of her dad, 11yr old brother and myself. Which makes it a joyful wonder to us. It also perplexes us when the feelings are jealousy and rage. She can't keep it together and she tries to hurt the offending person/animal. For instance, at dinner she may not want her dad to sit by her, she so will spit at him. My response is to remove her from the table and either take her outside where she can freely spit and scream and release the anger. Or if she doesn't want to do that, I will sit at the couch with her until she calms down. Lately, she doesn't want to go in to an alternate space, she tries to hit, spit, and jump on whomever she is upset at. I physically restrain her, as gently as I can, to keep her from hurting anyone. Understandably, this further enrages her and it takes the whole mealtime to calm down. Another example is in regards to jealousy of my DS. He and I play chess together at the table and my DD climbs up on to one of us and tries to take the pieces or clear the board off the table. When we stop the game because of the interference, my son feels upset at being pushed aside because of his sister. I have tried incorporating her into the game: setting up the board, moving the pieces for me, etc. But she says she doesn't want me to play with him at all. This is just a recent example. Something similar happens when I spend time with DS or even the dogs. Things I have tried: -Playing with her first to fill her attention bucket -Waiting until she is asleep (it is late and my sleepiness frustrates my son- he feels like he's getting my leftover time) -Teaching her to play so she can have a real turn (she doesn't want to /possibly can't yet learn) -Distracting her with tablet, show, playing with Dad. No joy there. Any ideas? What am I missing? |
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I remember the frustration from the mom's angle, but I was the older child, so I'm sympathetic to your son. :-) I don't have all the ideas you need, but I have a couple.? One, about chess, would be to wait until your daughter is fully out of the house, with her dad, or with another family to play at their house, or on an outing with friends.?? There is an episode of "Bluey," about chess, and it is super sweet.? It might help to watch that show with her, and find some pretty chess pieces she can keep as toys, to play with.? She won't know or care, probably, if it's not a full set.? Where I live, it's on Disney+.? OH!? Here are some of the good parts. :-)?? And another way to play chess with both of them might be to find a chess game for the computer or tablet, and you and the older child could collaborate on beating the game, while you play "real chess" (with the board and the pieces) with your daughter, letting her make up whatever rules she wants, or using them weird and wild other ways, without pressure to "do it right."? ?The bluey video might help. :-)? The full episode is only 15 minutes? [Eleventh?episode?of Season 3, I have googled up]. My other idea is the reminder that she will not be four years old for over a year.? Every day, she knows more.? Every day, her emotions are more mature. I hope you get lots of other ideas.? This group.... I wish you could all see it as busy as it used to be!! Sandra On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 3:04 PM Lollizah <Art@...> wrote: My 4 yr old DD is delightfully dramatic, excited about life, and open about her moment to moment feelings. |
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýHi Lolizah, I¡¯ve never felt like one of the ¡°wise people who offer their thoughts¡± on here, but I have something to contribute to the discussion! I have a 4 year old, a 7 year old, and an 11 year old. I haven¡¯t had quite the challenges you have with the hitting/spitting jealousy behaviour, but in general I¡¯ve been finding that unless it matters to someone else, giving her what she wants is more pleasant for everyone than NOT giving her what she wants and then dealing with huge meltdown.? Connecting it to your dinner example: If my family sits down to eat dinner together (which is honestly somewhat rare, maybe a weekly thing), and our 4yo might have an issue with the seat arrangement based on past experience, here are some ideas I have : - invite her to decide the seating arrangement - if she announces she doesn¡¯t want to sit next to daddy, I can say ¡°well *I* definitely want to sit beside daddy, so can I trade with you? (Easier in a group of 5, I realize, than 4, since there is only one spot at your table that is not beside daddy).? - feed her first then let her watch a show somewhere else while the rest of you eat.? - invite her to eat somewhere else nearby (we have a counter with barstools, you might have a coffee table or something) The other thing I might try if some of my child¡¯s behaviours-when-upset were really not ok with me (E.g., the spitting is something I find personally quite gross) is to find a time when I have recently connected with her over a game or a show, and ask her about ways she shows me she is angry, maybe share that it¡¯s not ever ok to spit on people or hit them, even if she¡¯s really REALLY mad about something. And then make a list together of things she can do when she¡¯s mad that are safe for everyone: - shout ¡°I¡¯m so angry!¡± - hit a pillow - Stomp feet - spit into a tissue (Daniel Tiger has an episode and song about being so mad that you want to roar and taking a deep breath and counting to 4) Then practice them while she¡¯s not angry.? Later, and for a little while after (weeks maybe), try as much as you can to anticipate the anger coming and be ready with a cushion for hitting, or a tissue for spitting in.? In the moment, remind lovingly: ¡°I can¡¯t let you spit on daddy, here is a tissue for spitting¡±, etc.? Hopefully this gives you some ideas. It sounds very stressful! Kate ====================== Sent from my phone - typos are unintentional!!On Dec 17, 2022, at 12:14 AM, Sandra Dodd <aelflaed@...> wrote:
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Four is a really intense age.? My fifth child is currently four years old.? What helps me is remembering that five years is MUCH easier, trying to help him get enough sleep, enough big muscle playing, and then setting up situations to be as pleasant as possible for everyone ahead of time as I can.??
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This might be things like setting up seats at the table how they usually prefer (that's a common issue here too), putting his car seat away from the siblings he tends to fight with, having lots of duplicates in favorite toys, having his dad or a favorite big sister play with him when I need to focus on another kid.? Sometimes when an older kid needs attention it's better to completely leave the house.? Younger kids might be upset for just a minute before dad pulls out something fun that's distracting and older sibling gets uninterrupted mom time.? For something like playing chess, the library could be a good place to go. On Monday, December 12, 2022, Lollizah <Art@...> wrote:
My 4 yr old DD is delightfully dramatic, excited about life, and open about her moment to moment feelings. |
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On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 08:42 AM, Katie Robles wrote:
What helps me is remembering that five years is MUCH easier, trying to help him get enough sleep, enough big muscle playing Katie, thanks.? You meant take the older kid and leave the house with just him, right?? :-) Sometimes I didn't have the dad to stay home, and leaving the house (with everyone) could still break an impasse and change a mood. Where I am, it's super cold this week.? I know there? are people here from other hemispheres, and more equatorial places, but when it's cold enough, "big muscle playing" can be difficult too.? We're planning to take some of our grandkids to a big museum that's "too old" for them, in general, mostly to give them space to move, stairs to climb, in a warm place that's not our same old house. I have a collection (not that I wrote, but that I'm hosting :-) ) of large-muscle activities for indoors: It will work on a phone, now.? (For years it was wide and 'decorative.') Sandra ? ? ? |
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Yes, getting out with just the older child when possible.? Although having someone come take out the younger child works too, and sometimes even just putting on music in the car and driving everyone around can change the mood or lead to a younger kid napping.?
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We are in Texas, so we're finally able to go outside more now, after hiding from the heat a lot.? Although it's been cold lately.? Our living room is a big rug with only a couple "real" chairs, and some bean bag chairs which are great for flopping and jumping.? There's enough room for tossing balls, building box houses, a couple ride on cars, dance parties, etc.? The younger kids' bedroom has their mattresses on the floor for jumping and rough housing.? I have other chairs tucked away in quiet corners of the house and my bedroom that are more set up for the teens to use their tablets, read a book,? or play a board game without younger siblings around.? My 13 year hangs out a lot in the large walk in pantry I've made a nook in, which is nice because I can talk with her from the kitchen while younger ones do playdough or art at the kitchen table.? On Saturday, December 17, 2022, Sandra Dodd <aelflaed@...> wrote: On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 08:42 AM, Katie Robles wrote: |
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Hi Lollizah,
I¡¯ve been reading and learning from this wonderful group for many years, but this is my first post. My kids are older now (17 and 15), but here are my thoughts. The simple things, like who she wants to sit next to at dinner, might be great opportunities to loan her some of your power. Young kids have very little power to control their lives, so as an adult with much more power, you can share some of yours with her by allowing her to control things that are safe and reasonable. Arrange the chairs however she likes, make a game out of it (she could play ¡°duck duck goose¡± behind the chairs to show who she wants to sit next to, or musical chairs and she stops the music). Share your creativity and power to show her there are so many little ways to make things better and easier. I¡¯m also wondering if the super angry outbursts (i.e. spitting and hitting) come immediately, or is there a ramp-up? In my personal experience, people usually turn up the volume only when they don¡¯t feel heard. When my kids were very young they would usually start softly with a request, then escalate if I was busy with something else. By the time they were hitting and spitting, it ¡°felt¡± to me like it had come out of nowhere, when in reality they had been asking in many different ways and slowly ramping up the volume of the requests. So, maybe looking for cues and paying attention earlier, also looking for things like hunger and fatigue that can exacerbate emotional responses. She might also be asking in ways that don¡¯t seem like asking to you, like playfully poking her dad, or a grumpy face, to indicate she doesn¡¯t like the seating arrangement. I also found it very helpful to empathize and reflect when my kids were super angry. Reflecting, ¡°Wow, I can see how angry you are!¡± lets them know that you see them. It can be scary to feel out-of-control anger, so it¡¯s important to have someone let you know that it¡¯s OK, this is normal, it will pass soon, I¡¯m here with you. Validating is also important. Try to understand why she is so upset, then reflect that to her: ¡°It is SO frustrating when¡¡±. It¡¯s also important for kids to have models of what healthy anger expression looks like. You mentioned that she is more emotionally expressive than the rest of your family, so she might not know what to do with her huge feelings. Anger can come with incredible energy that needs somewhere to go. It might help if you could be more open with your own process around anger, so she can see you being angry and what you do with it. In addition to the other helpful tips that were offered about what to do with anger, maybe have some crayons and paper for her to furiously scribble angry colors or playdough to angrily smoosh around. Also, grounding techniques might be helpful - i.e. holding ice, having different textures for her to feel, hide a stuffed animal she has to look for, etc. When my kids were young and they were really angry, any attempt I made to control, calm, or soothe ended up backfiring and making them feel powerless, thus even more angry. What helped was when I ¡°joined them¡± and saw their anger and frustration and helped give it a voice and give them tools to move through it. Learning about emotional expression is messy and uncomfortable. Having the time and space for this is one of the best parts of unschooling. Finally, orchestrate times for you and your son to spend time together. Schedule a regular time for your daughter to go to the park with her dad, or go to a playdate, or take her to a sitter to have a pedicure and special playtime. Make it a fun time that your daughter looks forward to, and lets your son know he can count on that regular time with you. If it¡¯s easier for your daughter, try having her stay home with a sitter or dad, while you and your son play chess at a local coffee shop, park, or library. Also maybe try scheduling regular one-on-one time with your daughter, so you have a special date to do just what she wants, especially since she is feeling jealousy at this stage. Kids that age seem to need all of our attention all of the time. Showing them how special they are, while finding ways to soften the impact of the times we are unavailable, can be helpful. I wish I could go back to when my kids were 4, with what I know now, but I¡¯m not sure I¡¯d have the energy! I kept learning and growing along the way, so did my kids, and now we¡¯re in a pretty sweet place. Cara |
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I also have a 15 yr old and a 17 yr old, and one of them is extrovert and has high emotional reactivity and struggled with rage and jealousy and feeling powerless when young.
? And then all I¡¯d be left with was the thought of how unloveable I was and how shameful my (uncontrollable) behaviour was. And that would be added to the emotional pile inside of me I was already struggling with. The one thing I didn¡¯t hear in what you shared, that Cara mentioned, but I think it¡¯s so important I¡¯m repeating it, is empathy. Empathy and validation are powerful soothers and can help her, even at 4, to slow down, feel seen, understood, cared about, and so have a better chance of managing herself over time. And, as others have said, she won¡¯t be 4 forever. Empathy and validation don¡¯t include explaining what her brother needs, or what you want, or why what she wants is wrong, or rationalising anything that¡¯s happening. That can come later when she¡¯s regulated again. Active listening skills can help, also something like Non-Violent Communication as long as you don¡¯t end up swamping her with words. She sounds like the less words the better by the time she¡¯s hit the point of blowing up. But maybe more listening earlier?
If she¡¯s behaving like that, she (something inside of her) has a very good reason for it. And is doing the best it can with whatever it knows, to keep her safe or to help her get the love or attention she needs right there and then. If she is very different from you (and everyone in the family, as you described), it can not only be very overwhelming for all of you (and maybe even be breeding resentment), but it can also be very hard to see what that something in her could be or what its ultimately benevolent goal is despite it¡¯s challenging ¡®not terribly good strategy¡¯ to get her there!
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In a recent session with parents, which I facilitate online, one mum shared how her 8 year old is showing aggression. When I probed a bit about instances when he shows aggression, she mentioned they were times when she nagged him to eat, rest, wash up, after he came back from outside play or chess classes. He didn't even want her to ask if he needed her at those time. She mentioned how he wanted to be left alone a bit when he returned home. The mum took it all personally; as in her son was lashing out at her. She could see after the session, and after other parents shared, what she was labelling as aggression was her inability to listen to his needs for solitude and downtime, or his need to unwind after interaction with other children and intensity of a chess class.? Rage and anger are usually the face of other unmet needs. Young children often find it hard to articulate complex feelings, then they might react?outwardly in ways that look like aggression. I have found adults too express with aggression when the feelings are complex and overwhelming or there is shame or guilt attached to those feelings due to social conditioning they have imbibed. There is very little acceptance and validation for difficult emotions and feelings or for what are percieved as negative feelings of jealousy and envy. Dola On Mon, 19 Dec 2022, 1:58 am Natalie Chalmers, <natalie@...> wrote:
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¿ªÔÆÌåÓýI wonder how she would respond to either you or her sibling playing a second game of chess with her (with whatever rules she wants) while you play with the older child.?I have never used it, but i have heard great things about StoryChess as a way to teach younger children how to play chess.? On Dec 17, 2022, at 12:14 AM, Sandra Dodd <aelflaed@...> wrote:
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What you said about processing my own anger in an outward way so that she can see how to do it- that is a great point! Here everyone around her are internal processors and she probably just thinks we don't feel what she feels.
You all ask such wonderful questions; this really helps me to see it from different perspectives. Before I found unschooling, I read a lot of Magda Gerber/RIE parenting. Which is great compared to punitive parenting, but I don't know what to do in certain situations. I.E. if she is going after her brother hitting at him, I don't see a way to keep him safe without him having to leave (which isn't fair to him) or to restrain her so she can't hit. It doesn't feel right restraining her even though my touch is as gentle as possible. You all have given me great things to try. Proactive observation and connection. My sweet DS has wonderful patience with his sister, but I see it wearing thin in a way that is causing him to avoid her. I feel sad about this. There have been rare occasions where he has retaliated physically and that has always ended in (unprompted) apologies and hugs. Any thoughts on how to help him express his frustration to her?? Thank you all! |
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He should not be hit, especially to the point where he feels like he has to protect himself.
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If you haven't been able to proactively prevent the situations where she starts hitting, a firm "No hitting" and moving the four year old away from their sibling protects BOTH children. On Tuesday, December 20, 2022, Lollizah <Art@...> wrote:
What you said about processing my own anger in an outward way so that she can see how to do it- that is a great point! Here everyone around her are internal processors and she probably just thinks we don't feel what she feels. |
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I didn't realize I hadn't mentioned empathy with DD until Cara pointed it out. I do empathize.
When DD is angry to the point of rage, I will tell her "I know it's hard to feel out of control and I will ride this wave with you."? Or things like "I see you are angry and I will help you through this." Or "I feel jealousy sometimes too. I will be here with you." I think I am missing many less triggered times to empathize.? She often snubs dad or brother (because they are boys!). She will roll her eyes at DH if he speaks to her. When he complements her or asks about something she's doing, then she will growl and bear her teeth at him like a puppy. He and I just brush this off- ignore it. I see now that this is probably the time to probe more about this. I am not sure how to do this. What kinds of questions should I be asking in these mild interchanges? She has always had a strong preference for me, and honestly, I just don't see why she can't accept love from both of us! Help me see this. My husband is definitely has better parenting instincts. Like the dinner seating. When he remembers, he always asks her, "Where would you like me to sit, Sweetie?" I am the one who has this gut reaction that it is ridiculous to ask a preschooler where to sit. He is humble and doesn't care about controlling his chair. It takes me a breath or two to get to that place. (Religious, punitive upbringing baggage, I am sure.) Am I the reason she "doesn't like" him? Lollizah |
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I'm working on a page on my site that has a quote from me, in? this group. :-)? ? "It's not so important to talk to a child about those things as to respond to the child with the awareness that eventually he or she (and you) might understand better what his patterns and ranges are, and to accept that is IS normal for that child, and it does no good to advise him to be like you if he's not naturally like you." ? Four is too young for such discussions or descriptions, but parenthood is not too soon to learn more about the range of normal human response, and to take into consideration each child's temperament as the parent makes decisions. ? If those things describe the parent, even a little, more self-awareness might help to keep situations safer (socially and emotionally, at least) for all involved. ? That quote is from this post: /g/AlwaysLearning/message/73413 ? Thanks for being here, everyone, for reading, considering, and applying some of these ideas to your life.? Thanks for the contributions of ideas, those who have written lately, or in any year back to the beginning of the group! ? Sandra ? |
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On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 08:07 AM, Lollizah wrote:
What kinds of questions should I be asking in these mild interchanges? None; she's four years old.
Way too many words.? A mountain of words too many, for a four year old.? Too many for an adult who hasn't paid you for counseling. I despise those "active listening" speeches.? They are for therapists to use, not for parents, friends or partners to use.
She is four.? She's barely out of infancy.? It is natural for young children to prefer their mothers.??
The word "ridiculous" inspires me to point out to people how strong a term it is, and how damaging and dismissive. You not only thought it, but you wrote it down and shared it (probably without conscious awareness that you were doing so, or what it means)¡ªdon't feel too bad, but do try to catch yourself next time, earlier.? And someday, catch yourself before you even think it. Maybe read this in small installments, but if you DO want help seeing what could be confusing you, try to work through it over a few days or a week.? If it makes you defensive, breathe. :-)? Think about why you would prefer to keep "ridiculous" even if it could be harming real lives and relationships. Sandra |
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On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 08:07 AM, Lollizah wrote:
My husband is definitely has better parenting instincts. Like the dinner seating. When he remembers, he always asks her, "Where would you like me to sit, Sweetie?" I am the one who has this gut reaction that it is ridiculous to ask a preschooler where to sit. He is humble and doesn't care about controlling his chair. It takes me a breath or two to get to that place. (Religious, punitive upbringing baggage, I am sure.) I doubt you're the reason she prefers you to her dad right now.?? Lots of people have baggage from their childhoods. Somewhere between most and all.? Learning to notice "the voices in your head," and then to consciously counter them with newer, better ideas, is a way to heal your own inner child and current self, and to create a better nest and environment for your current children. ? But look at the section you wrote, that I quoted above.? You say your husband has better parenting instincts, but that your gut reaction is that it's ridiculous, what he's doing. :-) ? If your own glares and growls and facial expressions could be picked up by your children as being critical or belittling of their dad, don't do that!? (If you're not doing it, peachy, but you did ask if it could be your fault, so I'm fishing for the fish in your own fishbowl here. :-) ) ? Sandra ? |
Sandra, I am so grateful that you have pointed this out! After reading the link (?) I am horrified to think I could have gone my whole marriage with this attitude and disregard for my husband. I have used this word so flippantly and I am so sorry to the whole group as well, for my cavalier use of something so hurtful. It stings and my mind was flooded with defensive scripts, but oh my, how glad I am to start recovering from and removing ridicule, in all its forms, from my thoughts and words.**She is four.? She's barely out of infancy.? It is natural for young children to prefer their mothers.**Yes, of course! It is easy to loose sight of this because of how capable she is. |
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-=-....?flooded with defensive scripts-=- I forgot to include the link to ideas about sorting through those repeating loops¡ªsometimes in our own voices, but very often in voices of older relatives or friends or enemies. I don't think any person ever clears out all the old tapes, but being aware that they ARE the mental recordings of messages is a step toward not being controlled by them, and not passing them on unexamined.?? My kids probably have my voice telling them one thing or another that I wish I could go back and edit. :-) No one's getting perfect, but "better" is easily doable! Sandra |
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Approximation of Sandra¡¯s words from a decade or more ago (paraphrased): if you can pause long enough to make two choices before you react, then choose the better of those two options, that¡¯s how you start ¡°doing better¡±.? For me, I try to do this with the loops in my head that criticize and berate me - and it helps me try to deactivate some of them and choose nicer things to say to myself.? It was intended in a different context I think (don¡¯t have to search it right now but maybe someone will bring a more accurate quote or link) - essentially about the path to making ¡°better¡± (kinder, less reflexive, more reflective) choices in parenting.? I find helps me re-parent myself, though, since the voices in my head are usually those of my own parents, who weren¡¯t perfect either.? Kate ====================== Sent from my phone - typos are unintentional!!On Dec 21, 2022, at 1:36 PM, Sandra Dodd <aelflaed@...> wrote:
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Sandra Dodd