Keyboard Shortcuts
Likes
- S1S2euroS3LotusEspritOwners
- Messages
Search
Re: Camshafts and/or Pulleys for sale
Ian,
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I don't have either an E-cam or 110 pulleys for you, but... What is your preference for how the engine will run? Do you prefer higher performance at the top of the rev range, or milder manners/ easier driveability/ better low end torque? You can't have both stronger top-end power and better low-end torque. You must choose, and one comes at the expense of the other. If you're going to spend money to sort this out, then you should at least get what you want in the end. The pre-1974 Lotus cars (Coventy-Climax, Lotus-Ford Twin Cam... etc) were meant to be flogged, and their owners were boy-racers rat-racing through the countryside. I think they would have loved the early 907. But I think Lotus failed to realize that buyers for the Jensen-Healey, and for the new 4-seat Elite 'Executive Express' were not going to be members of the previous crowd. And Lotus got a lot of complaints from early owners about the 907 being too high-strung, having to be driven hard in order to perform, and not having enough torque at low rpm. In the 2nd & 3rd years of production, Lotus made some relatively minor carb changes aimed at taming the 907. But it wasn't until later that they actually made an internal change. The E-cam was Lotus first attempt to de-tune the 907. It helped, but the silk scarf & wicker basket crowd still complained. Next, Lotus introduced the 107 cam... more of the same (milder). If the E-cam was one step toward milder, then the 107 cam was two steps milder. So, what do you prefer? More low-end torque and easier driveability? Or full-throttle, top-end performance? C & D cams are biased more toward top end performance. They're at their best at full throttle above 4000 rpm. Not 'racey', but not mild-mannered either. The 107 cam leans heavily toward the low-end torque part of the spectrum. Given time, it will eventually pull redline, but you have to wait for it. It's pretty much all done by 4500-5000 rpm, then it's pretty lazy the rest of the way to redline. The E-cam is somewhere between the above two. It's specific target was low-end driveability and torque, but it didn't go as low as the 107 cam. The 'street-hot' 104 cam targets top end performance. It doesn't really wake-up until 4500 rpm, then it will scream right past redline. It's up to you to lift off, because the engine will just keep going. So, which personality do you want your car to have? Both/ All aren't options. Pick the appropriate cam, then install the correct MOP pulleys for the cam's used. C & D Cams = 110 MOP = Red dot E Cam = 102.5 MOP = Yellow dot. 104 & 107 Cams = 104 MOP = Green dot. The stock C-cam and the later, street-hot 104 cam both have 272 duration. The difference is in the 104 lobe's very aggressive opening & closing ramps banging the valves open & closed, and the greater valve lift. Plus the stock C-cam runs milder 110 MOP pulleys, and the 104 cam runs hotter 104 MOP pulleys. "IF" you put the 104 MOP pulleys on the stock C-cam, it will have the same event-timing as the 104-cam, but not the aggressive lobes and lift. If you wished to autocross in a STOCK class, but want to 'sneak in' a little more top-end performance ("If you don't get caught, it's not cheatin"), then the 104 MOP pulleys on the stock C-cams would give you sort of a baby 104 cam set-up. It would produce more top-end power at the expense of low-end torque and driveability... just not as much as the 'street-hot' 104-cam would). Either plan on spending most of your time above 4500 rpm during an autocross run, or don't bother with the 104 MOP 'cheat'. Running the 102.5 MOP, yellow-dot pulleys on the C-cam is 1.5 degrees further down that 'stockish-cheat' path. Even stronger top-end performance even higher up the rev range, and at greater expense to low end torque and driveability. If you prefer driving your Esprit with your foot on the floor, you might like the result. If you prefer taking your lady for a drive through the park, then you're probably not going to like it. None of those combinations are going to bend valves... that's not the issue. The difference will be in the engine's personality (milquetoast, or bonkers) and performance (down low, or bouncing off redline) verses what you like. "Dissapointment is a function of expectations". Choose. *~*~* I don't know which vender has a supply of all the pulley MOPs, but there are some parts suppliers who are selling incorrect pulleys. Some owners have received pulleys from Kent-Cams that have one MOP, but are marked as another. And some of the 'Lotus' vendors are getting their pulleys from Kent-Cams. You need to be careful. Adjustable pulleys are an option... they are what you make them during installation. The problem is that they are much more complicated to set-up, and you need to KNOW what you're doing. It's easy to make mistakes, and bad mistakes can bend valves. If you don't know how to set-up adjustable pulleys, or don't have a knowledgeable fried who can look over your shoulder on your first attempt, then adjustables probably come with too much risk for a beginner. So, first question first... what do you want your engine to be? Low-end torque and easy driveability, or top-end performance. "Both" isn't an answer. Later, Tim 07/22/2022, 11:35AM, Ian Munro, <webdudeca@...> wrote: Folks, |
||
Re: Is the timing belt an engine-out procedure?
开云体育EXCELLENT to see the shop Flat Rate hours. Thanks Tim. ? I think someone in the UK bragged that they could do the timing belt in 20 minutes from underneath. Sounds like a really professional job…. NOT! ? Bill ? From: [email protected] <> On Behalf Of Tim Engel ? The engine DOES NOT have to come out in order to replace the timing belt and tensioner bearing.? ?In my Esprit S2, I could replace both the belt & bearing in 3.0 hours with the engine IN the Esprit.? ?My record in a front-engined Eclat is 45 minutes for the timing belt only.? ?In general, replacing the tensioner bearing adds about 15 minutes to the task. |
||
Re: Is the timing belt an engine-out procedure?
The engine DOES NOT have to come out in order to replace the timing belt and tensioner bearing.? ?In my Esprit S2, I could replace both the belt & bearing in 3.0 hours with the engine IN the Esprit.? ?My record in a front-engined Eclat is 45 minutes for the timing belt only.? ?In general, replacing the tensioner bearing adds about 15 minutes to the task.
According to Lotus' Flat Rate Labor Manual, the time to accomplish the following tasks is... ADJUST Timing Belt Tension (including setting cam timing): 0.8 hr = Esprit S1,? ?or? ?1.1 hr = Esprit S2 REPLACE Timing Belt (including setting cam timing & tensioning): 2.8 hr = Esprit S1 & S2 REPLACE (plug & play) Timing Belt Tensioner (eccentric). 2.5 hr = Esprit S1 & S2 REPLACE (plug & play) Timing Belt Tensioner (semi-automatic). 3.0 hr = Esprit S1 & S2 ADD the following time to both of the above IF the tensioner bearing is replaced 0.3 hr?= Esprit S1 & S2 CHECK Valve Clearances: 1.1 hr = Esprit S1 & S2 ADJUST (ie, shim) Valve Clearances: 4.0 hr = Esprit S1 & S2 Remove & Replace Engine & Gearbox Ass'y: 9.0 hr = Esprit S1 & S2 My experience is that it takes about 3.5 hours to put the engine on the floor, and... 5.5 hours to install the engine. 9.0 billable hoiurs, and they have not yet accomplished one single thing that was on your work order. My best advice... do NOT do business with that shop.? ?They're scamming you/ padding the bill.? ?Removing the engine first is only easier/ faster 'IF' you ignore the amount of time and effort required to remove & replace the engine.? ?In general, you (or the mechanic) CAN NOT save enough time doing the above tasks on the engine out of the car to offset the time and effort (grief, pain, etc) required to remove & replace the engine !! What is the name and address of the shop that insists upon removing the engine first.? ?Every Lotus owner living near you should be aware. Regards, Tim Engel |
||
Re: Is the timing belt an engine-out procedure?
开云体育If they aren’t sure what they’re doing then removing the engine is a straight forward but time consuming way to make sure they do the job right. Your paying extra for their desire to do it right but also for their ignorance in not knowing how to do it in the first place. That said, adding the fuel tanks and I would seriously consider removing the engine. With the engine out then all of the other engine service items do become easier while its out. ?The S1/S2 is much harder to work on than the later Turbo cars. The early chassis has horrible access to the front of the engine from underneath so seeing and reaching up in there is hard and and that adds to the desire to remove it so you can see what your doing but you can certainly do the belt in the car.?I’d like to see the detailed estimate of what they’re going to do for $10k though. Is that just a shoot from the hip estimate or a thought out detailed estimate? Mostly it sounds like you should try someone else. For that money you could ship it to someone who really knows what they’re doing and still come out ahead.? Dave C On Jul 23, 2022, at 10:12 AM, Bill Galbraith <Lotus@...> wrote:
|
||
Re: Is the timing belt an engine-out procedure?
开云体育Toaph, ? There is a video on my web site () that shows how to get the belt on. It is very doable with the engine in place. The shop manual tells you the steps to follow. This shop shouldn’t be trusted with the job, since they don’t know how to do it. $10k is absurd. ? If you look on SJ Sportscar’s web site, you will see that a “C” service, which includes the timing belt, is $1500, but also covers oil change, spark plugs, adjusting the valves, new gearbox oil, and brake fluid flush. Their shop rate is $66/hr, and they have 14 hours in there. Shop rates in this country are 2-3 times that, so adjust the amount accordingly, ? There are too many horror stories form Esprit owners where a shop undertakes something like this. They keep the car for a year or two, don’t finish the job, then you have to fight to get the car out of them, and find someone else to do the work. Save yourself the grief, They don’t really want the work, thus the high price, ir they have no idea what they are doing. ? Used to have a friend with a Ferrari Testarosa which required the engine to be removed for a timing belt change, every two years. It was $20k, but that was a huge job. Engine removal isn’t that hard in these cars, and definitely not $10k, and not needed for the timing belt. Now, if you are replacing fuel tanks, I understand that it is almost required, difficult to accomplish with them in place. ? Bill ? ? ? From: [email protected] <> On Behalf Of Toaph via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2022 9:37 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [S1S2euroS3LotusEspritOwners] Is the timing belt an engine-out procedure? ? I took my S1 to an experienced Euro shop for some maintenance items, not the least of which is a nice new timing belt.? They said it's an engine-out procedure, and with some additional things like fixing oil leaks and installing new gas tanks while the engine is out, the estimate came to $10,000.00.? I practically fainted on the spot.? I want to treat this car right, and I'm sick of fixing things one-by-one, but I hadn't planned on investing nearly that kind of money into this car.? Any thoughts? ? -- Toaph |
||
Re: Is the timing belt an engine-out procedure?
开云体育
I have a G-body Turbo with a/c. Even on this car it can be done without pulling the engine.
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Toaph via groups.io <toaph@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2022 8:36 AM To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: [S1S2euroS3LotusEspritOwners] Is the timing belt an engine-out procedure? ?
I took my S1 to an experienced Euro shop for some maintenance items, not the least of which is a nice new timing belt.? They said it's an engine-out procedure, and with some additional things like fixing oil leaks and installing new gas tanks
while the engine is out, the estimate came to $10,000.00.? I practically fainted on the spot.? I want to treat this car right, and I'm sick of fixing things one-by-one, but I hadn't planned on investing nearly that kind of money into this car.? Any thoughts?
-- Toaph
|
||
Re: Is the timing belt an engine-out procedure?
TAKE IT TO ANOTHER SHOP!
On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 10:16:50 AM AST, Murray Graham <murraygraham1961@...> wrote:
My mechanic was able to change the timing belt on my S2 without removing the motor - they used some mirrors to help see what they were doing. Sounds like they haven’t tried that. Murray Graham On Jul 23, 2022, at 10:02 AM, Toaph via groups.io <toaph@...> wrote:
|
||
Re: Is the timing belt an engine-out procedure?
Toaph, I changed the timing belt in my garage.? All the problems I had were directly related to my inexperience.? Bring the engine to TDC and double check the timing marks on the camshaft pulleys.? All three marks must line up.? Releasing the tensioner CORRECTLY and being sure it is released was my toughest problem.? New belt will slide on with just a small bit of pressure.? Removing the fuel tank IS a major job.? Lots of time there.? Don't think it is necessary to remove the engine to do it.? If you do remove the engine, have the top and bottom renewed while it's out.? I removed the head on my 907.? Had it rebuilt in Batavia.? Reinstalled it with guidance from Tim Engel.? Seems way too high but......... Lyn
On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 10:02:14 AM EDT, Toaph via groups.io <toaph@...> wrote:
I took my S1 to an experienced Euro shop for some maintenance items, not the least of which is a nice new timing belt.? They said it's an engine-out procedure, and with some additional things like fixing oil leaks and installing new gas tanks while the engine is out, the estimate came to $10,000.00.? I practically fainted on the spot.? I want to treat this car right, and I'm sick of fixing things one-by-one, but I hadn't planned on investing nearly that kind of money into this car.? Any thoughts? -- Toaph |
||
Re: Is the timing belt an engine-out procedure?
开云体育My mechanic was able to change the timing belt on my S2 without removing the motor - they used some mirrors to help see what they were doing. Sounds like they haven’t tried that.Murray Graham On Jul 23, 2022, at 10:02 AM, Toaph via groups.io <toaph@...> wrote:
|
||
Is the timing belt an engine-out procedure?
I took my S1 to an experienced Euro shop for some maintenance items, not the least of which is a nice new timing belt.? They said it's an engine-out procedure, and with some additional things like fixing oil leaks and installing new gas tanks while the engine is out, the estimate came to $10,000.00.? I practically fainted on the spot.? I want to treat this car right, and I'm sick of fixing things one-by-one, but I hadn't planned on investing nearly that kind of money into this car.? Any thoughts? -- Toaph |
||
Camshafts and/or Pulleys for sale
Folks,
I have recently rebuilt my engine following what I now believe to have been an oil delivery problem to my exhaust camshaft.? I purchased a used cam carrier and a used camshaft to replace the failed ones but failed to notice my replacement camshaft was a "C" version while my original one was an "E" version.? As you all likely know (and I have now learned) they use different pulleys which are keyed to provide different MOP degrees. I have at least three options to sort this out.? One is to obtain a replacement "E" camshaft and return everything to stock using my existing pulleys.? Two is to purchase a "red dot" pulley for the "C" camshaft and operate the engine with a mix of camshafts (Tim advises this is workable.)? Three is to purchase two "red dot" pulleys and convert the engine to full "C" camshaft spec (I actually already have two "C" camshafts.) My question to the group is do any of you have any of these items (qty 1 "E" camshaft and/or qty 1 or 2 "red dot" pulleys) available for sale? Thanks. Ian Munro JPS commemorative #32 |
||
Re: 79 s2 fuel pump
开云体育Rich,I took my car for a serious test yesterday (two hours out and two hours back).? My fuel pump worked flawlessly with no issues.? It is probably just my imagination but it "sounded" more enthusiastic to my ears than it had for years so I am hoping the fuel pump issues are sorted for now. Ian Munro JPS Commemorative #32 |
||
Re: Info on how to assemble sjs sportscar new radiator and shroud
SO i tookm my old radiator apart, and the stuyds are wleded to it. This new one has none , the new lwoe rbracket has the bolts for a bolt to go through the shroud but no bolts were provided, and it isnt mounted as the photos show. So its different than the orignal. Ill email Steve as well to see what he says. I figured someone has to have ordered a new aluminum rad from sjsportscars on here. or i hope X_X
Sent with secure email.
------- Original Message ------- On Saturday, July 16th, 2022 at 5:55 PM, Bill Galbraith <Lotus@...> wrote:
|
||
Re: Info on how to assemble sjs sportscar new radiator and shroud
开云体育I looked through my pictures, but didn’t see any great pictures showing the mounting tabs. I seem to remember that they were triangular at the top, and bolted to top of the radiator frame, and to the bottom of the frunk. The yellow thing is just a piece of padding that I was using to keep the radiator and condenser from backing together as I was installing them, as I lowered the car down onto the radiator. ?
? ? ? ? In the attached picture, you can see ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Here, you can see the studs on the A/C condenser that stick through the lower valance, and the holes for the holes that hold the radiator in place. ? ? I think I’ll be putting my car up in the air tomorrow. I don’t thin kI’ll be able to get any better pictures because the lower pan is in the way, but I’ll try. ? Bill ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? From: [email protected] <> On Behalf Of ZenHorizon via groups.io ? Hey all, my radiator, shroud and parts are finally here and im stumped. So i have here my old radiator and shroud. A complete prepared by claudious radiaor/fan/shroud setup ( that didnt fit after buying, so now its sueless as the radiator was too long to fit under the car. Due to this i orderted a new radiator, shroud, and upper and lower mounting brackets as well as foam from sjssportscars. Sadly it has no assembly insctructions. Im using the old one as a templater. The shroud has holes has dimples you can see where to drill the new mounting holes so that s no issue. The issue I am having is how do you attatch the bottom bracket to the radiator itself. Its the same size as the bracket on the bottom of the radiator. The bottom bracket has 2 bolt holes so you can mount the radiator to the shroud and besides the top that mounts it to the car, this is all that holds it on. I cannot see how the bracket goes on. I assumed it would slide in but it appears it does not. Has anyone bought and installed or done one of these? photos for reference |
||
Info on how to assemble sjs sportscar new radiator and shroud
Hey all, my radiator, shroud and parts are finally here and im stumped. So i have here my old radiator and shroud. A complete prepared by claudious radiaor/fan/shroud setup ( that didnt fit after buying, so now its sueless as the radiator was too long to fit under the car. Due to this i orderted a new radiator, shroud, and upper and lower mounting brackets as well as foam from sjssportscars. Sadly it has no assembly insctructions. Im using the old one as a templater. The shroud has holes has dimples you can see where to drill the new mounting holes so that s no issue. The issue I am having is how do you attatch the bottom bracket to the radiator itself. Its the same size as the bracket on the bottom of the radiator. The bottom bracket has 2 bolt holes so you can mount the radiator to the shroud and besides the top that mounts it to the car, this is all that holds it on. I cannot see how the bracket goes on. I assumed it would slide in but it appears it does not. Has anyone bought and installed or done one of these? photos for reference
|
||
Re: 79 s2 fuel pump
开云体育Hi, I had the same and after the second time,It refused to work, ?I decided it would just be better to change the old pump anyway. Move on and forget about it. Anyway, If you do not have acces to SJ sportscars to buy a new SU, google SU AZX1308EN.? This is the right pump with electronic contacts instead of points and it is available from different sources. ? Geert Esprit S2.2 ? Van: [email protected] <[email protected]> Namens webdudeca via groups.io
Verzonden: vrijdag 15 juli 2022 3:22 Aan: [email protected] Onderwerp: Re: [S1S2euroS3LotusEspritOwners] 79 s2 fuel pump ? Rich, ?
|