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To elucidate, my son and I have always been very close. He is very loving still, but in growing up, he is changing. I applaud his ability to grow and experiment with new beliefs and ideas. Unfortunately, for me, he gets very angry if I express an idea that is different.? He is amazing in that, though he gets very upset and insulting, he is over it very quickly and hold no grudges at all. In addition, he always apologizes on his own, and he specially tells me he doesn't mean the very cruel things he says when he is upset.
As you may surmise. I am not as good as he. His comments really hurt, and I allow his words to upset me. I have told myself that I will choose not to let what he says hurt me, but in all candor,? I have not been successful to date. He is wonderful to apologize. Unfortunately, he does the same thing over and over.
We talk when things are calmer, and he always tells me he wants to work together. I ask him if there are things I can do to do better? Alternatively, is there something I can avoid doing? Or Does he want anything from me? His answer is that there is nothing I am doing that I need to change and that he wants to work together. He says that the next time when something comes up, he will talk about it if he disagrees with my thoughts. Alas, it is perpetually?"ground hogs day " in our home, as this repeats at least several times a day.
I want a healthy and honest relationship with my son, and i want to be someone my son can get along with.
Thank you for this opportunity to reach out to you. I want to do something soon before I ruin the incredible relationship we have/had.
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Yes.
Listen more, talk less and only give your opinion if asked.
Ask questions if you want to learn why he thinks that way, listen, see it from his point if view but unless he asks you do t need to tell him he is wrong because you think differently .
Are you talking to him the same way you would to a dear friend that holds different opinions and ideas?
Alex P - who wishes she listened more and talked less but doing much better at being mindful abs working on it-
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On Nov 3, 2020, at 6:23 PM, M Person via groups.io <mypersonalmessages1@...> wrote:
? To elucidate, my son and I have always been very close. He is very loving still, but in growing up, he is changing. I applaud his ability to grow and experiment with new beliefs and ideas. Unfortunately, for me, he gets very angry if I express an idea that is different.? He is amazing in that, though he gets very upset and insulting, he is over it very quickly and hold no grudges at all. In addition, he always apologizes on his own, and he specially tells me he doesn't mean the very cruel things he says when he is upset.
As you may surmise. I am not as good as he. His comments really hurt, and I allow his words to upset me. I have told myself that I will choose not to let what he says hurt me, but in all candor,? I have not been successful to date. He is wonderful to apologize. Unfortunately, he does the same thing over and over.
We talk when things are calmer, and he always tells me he wants to work together. I ask him if there are things I can do to do better? Alternatively, is there something I can avoid doing? Or Does he want anything from me? His answer is that there is nothing I am doing that I need to change and that he wants to work together. He says that the next time when something comes up, he will talk about it if he disagrees with my thoughts. Alas, it is perpetually?"ground hogs day " in our home, as this repeats at least several times a day.
I want a healthy and honest relationship with my son, and i want to be someone my son can get along with.
Thank you for this opportunity to reach out to you. I want to do something soon before I ruin the incredible relationship we have/had.
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I go through the same thing with both of my children. They are older now, and the dynamic is always changing. When I try to do better at something, it seems like I have to learn again and again what I should do.?
I agree with Alex. Listen more, and talk less. As my two are older, it seems even more I can say the wrong thing very easily, and I have had my feelings hurt too. Just today, I thought again I just need to hear what they're saying when they want to talk. I don't have to give my opinion or try to get them to think something different. When I saw my older daughter today, she had a lot to say. I mostly just listened. I said a few words, maybe too many still, but really focused on just listening to her.?
I was so glad to have that time with her to connect. That's what I really want. Thanks to this group I have this perspective, and I'm so glad.
On Tuesday, November 3, 2020, M Person via <mypersonalmessages1= [email protected]> wrote: To elucidate, my son and I have always been very close. He is very loving still, but in growing up, he is changing. I applaud his ability to grow and experiment with new beliefs and ideas. Unfortunately, for me, he gets very angry if I express an idea that is different.? He is amazing in that, though he gets very upset and insulting, he is over it very quickly and hold no grudges at all. In addition, he always apologizes on his own, and he specially tells me he doesn't mean the very cruel things he says when he is upset.
As you may surmise. I am not as good as he. His comments really hurt, and I allow his words to upset me. I have told myself that I will choose not to let what he says hurt me, but in all candor,? I have not been successful to date. He is wonderful to apologize. Unfortunately, he does the same thing over and over.
We talk when things are calmer, and he always tells me he wants to work together. I ask him if there are things I can do to do better? Alternatively, is there something I can avoid doing? Or Does he want anything from me? His answer is that there is nothing I am doing that I need to change and that he wants to work together. He says that the next time when something comes up, he will talk about it if he disagrees with my thoughts. Alas, it is perpetually?"ground hogs day " in our home, as this repeats at least several times a day.
I want a healthy and honest relationship with my son, and i want to be someone my son can get along with.
Thank you for this opportunity to reach out to you. I want to do something soon before I ruin the incredible relationship we have/had.
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The book Teen/Parent Breakthrough the Relationship Approach was incredibly helpful for us. I wish I would have had it long ago!
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Some quotes and a link, about becoming the voice in your child's head.??
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"Be their support system. I want so much for my kids to grow up and hear that mommy voice in their head saying positive supportive things, not tearing them down, but encouraging them¡ªand especially not a voice to be resisted."?
¡ªPam Sorooshian
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I wrote (or maybe said in a podcast so it's not available to cut and paste) something about being careful about what of you gets embedded in your child's subconscious.? Can't find it; maybe someone will remember.
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I have this, though, from Just Add Light:
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Someone once wrote:
"In the past my kids have tended to expect to be waited on hand and foot."
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I responded:
If you use phrases like "to be waited on hand and foot," you're quoting other people. That usually means the other person's voice is in your head, shaming you. Or it means you've adopted some anti-kid attitudes without really examining them. If you're having a feeling, translate it into your own words. It's a little freaky how people can channel their parents and grandparents by going on automatic and letting those archaic phrases flow through us. Anything you haven't personally examined in the light of your current beliefs shouldn't be uttered, in my opinion. Anything I can't say in my own words hasn't really been internalized by me. As long as I'm simply quoting others, I can bypass conscious, careful thought.
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photo by Sandra Dodd_________ ?
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Sue Sullivan had responded:??
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I think this is a brilliant framing to help catch automatic, unquestioned thinking. I'd never really thought about phraseology as authentic or implanted but of course, 98 percent of it is learned from others (we've accrued some silly family memes, punchlines and code phrases over the years.)
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Even if in any given sentence you don't catch yourself uttering other people's words (people you really wouldn't want to emulate, if you sat down and examined it closely) you will still become much more aware of what you are saying. Excellent.
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Lots of people's ideas here, and links to more:??
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Sandra
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Found that quote! ?I don't know where I wrote it, but there's a link below to where I left it. :-)
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Your children are developing a holographic internal image of you, complete with voice and emotion. The things you do and say are being recorded for posterity; make them sweet and good. What you choose to say and do now will affect what your children say to their children, and what your great grandchildren will hear after you're long gone.
Live like you're their last hope.
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Sandra
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Around the age of 15, Ethan started strongly opposing a lot of my ways and opinions.? He even refused?my hugs!? We were so in sync when he was young.? He was always so cuddly--always so close.? This change surprised me--hurt me a little, if I'm honest.? It worried me too.? I began to doubt myself--to wonder if we were ever as close as I had thought we were.??
I noticed something one day when he was adamantly arguing about something that seemed kind of trivial to me.? I was starting to feel a bit weary, wondering why this was suddenly happening so much. Instead of judging what he was doing, however, I looked more closely at *him* and considered what he might be needing.? I noticed in that moment, that he was still looking to me for love and acceptance, even as he pushed himself in this other direction.?
A lightbulb went off, brightening things up for me a bit,?thankfully.? I could see that this was really just another opportunity for him to learn something more about himself.? So,?I engaged.? For the next year or so, we argued a lot (in my mind, I called it debating :D), but I made sure not to make it about me as much as possible.? I saw it more as an opportunity for him to learn to make sound (and increasingly calmer, I noticed) arguments as he defined his own ideas and beliefs and place in the world.? I was a bit sad because I knew this meant that he was really growing up, but I allowed myself to become the board he leapt from.? I wanted to be as solid as I could for him, so that he could leap with momentum and grace into this next big phase of his life.
I love unschooling for this.? I love that it has challenged me over and over again, as he grows and changes, to look at *him* to find what he is needing from me and from the world around him.? Ethan will be 18 this month.? We argue a lot less these?days over little things, but we still have some in-depth discussions.? I love talking with him.? He's such an interesting person.? Lately, he's become affectionate again too.? He gives me a side hug now, wrapping his arm around my neck and pulling me in.? He's 6' 3" so he rests his?chin on my head.? Interestingly, I have a photo of my dad giving his mom a similar hug when he was around Ethan's age.? I've never thought about that before.? Ethan's personality is a lot like my dad's was, so that's kind of a cool and beautiful connection for me to realize just now.? <3
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Karen, if you want me to enshrine the two photos you've mentioned, I would be glad to keep them here:
I quoted you, there.? This isn't a page that comes up often, but I'm glad I have it.??
Thanks for sharing that story about Ethan.? The peaceful parts are very peaceful, and the "rough" parts aren't very rough. :-)
When my kids were young, Keith complained that I "let them talk back."? I said we were having discussions, and arguments.? ?What I didn't tell him was that if I wasn't controlling and commanding, then "talking back" didn't apply.? What I did say was that it was good practice for them, and that if they could win an argument with me, they could hold their own with anyone. :-)
Truly, it WAS good practice, and it was conversational.? If learned more about them, their thoughts, and fears, beliefs, confusions, and they learned more about me.? None of that hurt any of us. :-)
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Sandra
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On Wed, Nov 4, 2020 at 11:35 AM, janellewrock wrote:
When I try to do better at something, it seems like I have to learn again and again what I should do.?
I got really good at being an unschooling mom to a six year old, and I got to repeat my tricks another couple of times, though each child was different.? I didn't know ANYthing about having a twelve year old, though.? And stuff like that kept on happening!! :-)
Living by principles is what helps us keep moving smoothly even though the terrain is new. :-)
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Sandra, I don't really have a good photo of the way Ethan comes up and hugs me.? I'll see if Doug can maybe take one some time.? The closest I have is one from a month or two ago when the three of us went for a drive and stopped to check out the view.? I'll attach that one.
The photo of my dad and his mom is attached.? It's not a great quality photo, but I love it still.? ??
Karen
On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 8:15 PM Sandra Dodd < Sandra@...> wrote: Karen, if you want me to enshrine the two photos you've mentioned, I would be glad to keep them here:
I quoted you, there.? This isn't a page that comes up often, but I'm glad I have it.??
Thanks for sharing that story about Ethan.? The peaceful parts are very peaceful, and the "rough" parts aren't very rough. :-)
When my kids were young, Keith complained that I "let them talk back."? I said we were having discussions, and arguments.? ?What I didn't tell him was that if I wasn't controlling and commanding, "talking back" didn't apply.? What I did say was that it was good practice for them, and that if they could win an argument with me, they could hold their own with anyone. :-)
Truly, it WAS good practice, and it was conversational.? If learned more about them, their thoughts, and fears, beliefs, confusions, and they learned more about me.? None of that hurt any of us. :-)
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Sandra
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On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 08:15 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
Truly, it WAS good practice, and it was conversational.
A kind of humourous?aside...
This past week, Ethan came up to me wanting to do some writing.? I don't know why.? I didn't ask and it doesn't really matter to me why.? I said, "Sure."? I asked him what he wants to write about and he came up with a couple of ideas.? We each wrote a bit on those.??
I'm a person who likes to set goals.? I've been jogging (lightly) every weekday for just over a month.? I give myself a happy face on a printed calendar each day.? I look forward to those happy faces.? My goal is to see no gaps in the week.? I do this kind of thing a lot for myself.? It makes things fun for me.? I don't always complete whatever it was I set out to do, but it sparkles things up for me.?
Ethan is not like this at all.? Never has been.? He doesn't like the pressure of deadlines or arbitrarily set goals.? He's motivated privately and simply by his own desire to do things and do them well.?
Anyway, on our first day of writing together, I said, "Let's try to fill the page!"? Mistake!? I should have kept that to myself--made it my own goal, and left him out of it.? He wrote a few sentences and stopped.? He looked up at me and said something very close to, "I try not to ramble, and this just feels like I'm rambling.? I've said everything I want to say in these few sentences."? I said, "Good!? Then stop!" I had already rambled most of my page anyway.? We both laughed about that.
In our year (or so) of arguing, one of the things I noticed was that he tried very hard to make his point as clear as possible--to not go on, to not ramble.? :)? I think that's where some of the urgency and frustration he was expressing came from, maybe.? He did get very good at it!? He became more confident and a better listener, himself, too, in time.?
He is a precise person, very thoughtful--way more so than me.? He chooses his words carefully and succinctly.? He doesn't mind not saying anything if he doesn't have anything of value (in his mind) to say.? Interestingly, he used to talk nonstop when he was young--so much so that sometimes I thought I might be?going cross eyed, trying to pay attention to all of the information he?was sharing.? I'd often tell him I needed a bit of a break from listening.? :D Interesting how things (and people) change and evolve if given the space and opportunity to do so.??
I said what I love about unschooling--that it has challenged me to look at *him* for the information I needed to move forward in my parenting of him.? I love that about parenting too--that it challenged me to get out of my own head a bit, to think of someone other than myself and my own feelings and needs as I made decisions about what I wanted to do, and about who I wanted to be.? It's been fun.? Sometimes very challenging, but I've loved it so much.? ? ?
And, there, I've rambled again!? :D
Karen James
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Respect, regard, consideration...
I wanted to, and I have shown these to my son when he talks and tells me his thoughts, his ideas. Like you, Karen and others,? I support his thoughts, even if they are different than mine, and like you also, sometimes I try to share additional ideas that maybe I could have kept to myself and let him work it through, being his sounding board.
He likes to talk and tell me his ideas and does so.? And I like to listen.
The problem that I experience is when I express an independent idea. He gets very upset.?
In calmer moments, he has explained that when I suggest something...even if he has never ventured his ideas on the subject...he gets upset because now he wants to do what I want, to bring me happiness,? but it is not how he wants yo do it. I have reassured him that it is just an idea,? and we can discuss and work it out.
This can be something innocuous, such as which order we are going to do errands. Most every tine, I gladly go the way he wants. The problem is when I express an independent idea,? again wherein he has not expressed a suggestion, he gets very upset and says very cruel things. I would like to find a way to not get so hurt. I have worked on it but failed miserably.
P.s. in this interest in brevity, I am not discussing yet the other scenario that I believe I eluded to earlier.? I am hoping I will have the opportunity subsequent to this.
I will keep listening and reading and learning and am grateful to be able to do so.
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Respond with questions. He said, ¡°I want to go to x first, then go to y.¡±?
Don¡¯t respond with your independent idea. Be interested in why he has that preference. If he has a good reason, do that. If you can do it his way, do it. If you have a good and significant reason not to, just give him brief information. For example say, ¡°Y will be closed by 4.¡± Let him conclude that it may better to go there first.?
You are describing power struggles. You stop them by you stopping them. Don¡¯t contradict. Offer information.?
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 7:12 PM M Person via <mypersonalmessages1= [email protected]> wrote: Respect, regard, consideration...
I wanted to, and I have shown these to my son when he talks and tells me his thoughts, his ideas. Like you, Karen and others,? I support his thoughts, even if they are different than mine, and like you also, sometimes I try to share additional ideas that maybe I could have kept to myself and let him work it through, being his sounding board.
He likes to talk and tell me his ideas and does so.? And I like to listen.
The problem that I experience is when I express an independent idea. He gets very upset.?
In calmer moments, he has explained that when I suggest something...even if he has never ventured his ideas on the subject...he gets upset because now he wants to do what I want, to bring me happiness,? but it is not how he wants yo do it. I have reassured him that it is just an idea,? and we can discuss and work it out.
This can be something innocuous, such as which order we are going to do errands. Most every tine, I gladly go the way he wants. The problem is when I express an independent idea,? again wherein he has not expressed a suggestion, he gets very upset and says very cruel things. I would like to find a way to not get so hurt. I have worked on it but failed miserably.
P.s. in this interest in brevity, I am not discussing yet the other scenario that I believe I eluded to earlier.? I am hoping I will have the opportunity subsequent to this.
I will keep listening and reading and learning and am grateful to be able to do so.
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-=-Respect, regard, consideration...
I wanted to, and I have shown these to my son when he talks and tells me his thoughts, his ideas.?-=-
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I hope you mean that you try to be respectful and considerate, not that you show him a list of virtues or principles.
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From your writing, and your accounts, I think you're using too many words.? Try just smiling, agreeing, bringing him food, doing things that benefit you and the family, the house, him, but without needing to announce that you've done it, or wanting credit for doing it.??
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Be there, be helpful, be considerate of his current feeling of being crowded and "told" too much.? He's communicating something that you're then reporting to us, but not responding to.??
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You could be in the same room with him, benefiting him, being a good example, and not crowd him with ideas or sound or pressure.
I'm not great at being quiet, but when I can pull it off, it's usually helpful. :-)
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Many kids try to get many parents to talk less.
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Sandra
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***he gets upset because now he wants to do what I want, to bring me happiness,? but it is not how he wants yo do it.***
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?***I would like to find a way to not get so hurt. I have worked on it but failed miserably.***
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It seems like perhaps he feels defensive because, for him, there might be a difficult choice for him to make between making you happy and satisfying his own needs.??
Maybe he hasn't "expressed a suggestion" as you have written, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have an opinion.? Ask him.? Let him know that his opinion matters to you even when he hasn't offered it.? Seek it out.? Intuit it when you can.? ? ??
Our son *always* wanted to be first.? First to the front door of the house.? First in a store.? First in the car.? First on an elevator.? First to use a new tool.? First to be served dinner.? If he wasn't first, he was a little impatient and cranky.? Not with others so much, but with me.? I gave him that position as often as I (reasonably) could.? I knew that it was in my power to do so, and I could tell that it was important to him.? I thought of it as a gift.? He never told me, explicitly, that he wanted to be first.? I knew it by watching him, playing with him, talking with him, walking with him, listening to him, getting to know him well.? It wasn't about entitlement.? It was about being seen.
I assumed that eventually he'd get filled up on being first.? He did.? I remember the day that he stood back and gestured to me to go first into the car.? I simply smiled and said, "Thanks."? Now he often stands aside and lets other go before him.? Sometimes he still likes to lead the way.?
Karen
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>>>>>In calmer moments, he has explained that when I suggest something...even if he has never ventured his ideas on the subject...he gets upset because now he wants to do what I want, to bring me happiness,? but it is not how he wants yo do it. <<<<<
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>>>>>This can be something innocuous, such as which order we are going to do errands. Most every tine, I gladly go the way he wants. The problem is when I express an independent idea,? again wherein he has not expressed a suggestion, he gets very upset and says very cruel things. I would like to find a way to not get so hurt. I have worked on it but failed miserably.<<<<<
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It sounds like you don't see it as reasonable, that he is frustrated by that situation. But he's telling you that when he hears your ideas he can't do his ideas anymore. He might not even be able to hear or figure out his own ideas. You're (unintentionally) messing up his process. He really *wants* to try his ideas, and that's important, developmentally, in learning, in life. So he's frustrated.?
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So maybe try not to make suggestions, as much as possible. Or maybe there's something else a few steps back that you haven't noticed yet.?
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>>>>> he gets very upset and says very cruel things. I would like to find a way to not get so hurt. I have worked on it but failed miserably.<<<<<
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I guess I'd be wondering why it's so cruel. Maybe he's emotionally intense at those times and doesn't really mean it, but then it probably wouldn't hurt so much, I think. Or maybe he does mean it, or there's other things going on that are bothering him. Or maybe it's not that cruel but it's affecting you a lot because of some other reason.?
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>>>> failed miserably<<<<<
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I think that's a phrase in your head from something else, maybe.?
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¡ª he gets upset because now he wants to do what I want, to bring me happiness,? but it is not how he wants yo do it. ¡ª
My daughter has expressed her desire to make things my way so it will make me happy.?
I¡¯ve had conversations with her about that. This can be so heavy on a child. I am the adult here and while it is nice that she wants to see me happy, I am still the adult in the relationship and I am the one responsible for her and not the other way around.?
Sometimes parents forget how guilty a child can feel about small and big things in a house and within their parents feelings. Children don¡¯t have experience in separating their feelings from the adults around them and can feel overwhelmed by the feeling that if they walk their own path, they will make their parents miserable (or even more miserable, if the parents are already unhappy).?
On Tue, 10 Nov 2020 at 00:12 M Person via <mypersonalmessages1= [email protected]> wrote: Respect, regard, consideration...
I wanted to, and I have shown these to my son when he talks and tells me his thoughts, his ideas. Like you, Karen and others,? I support his thoughts, even if they are different than mine, and like you also, sometimes I try to share additional ideas that maybe I could have kept to myself and let him work it through, being his sounding board.
He likes to talk and tell me his ideas and does so.? And I like to listen.
The problem that I experience is when I express an independent idea. He gets very upset.?
In calmer moments, he has explained that when I suggest something...even if he has never ventured his ideas on the subject...he gets upset because now he wants to do what I want, to bring me happiness,? but it is not how he wants yo do it. I have reassured him that it is just an idea,? and we can discuss and work it out.
This can be something innocuous, such as which order we are going to do errands. Most every tine, I gladly go the way he wants. The problem is when I express an independent idea,? again wherein he has not expressed a suggestion, he gets very upset and says very cruel things. I would like to find a way to not get so hurt. I have worked on it but failed miserably.
P.s. in this interest in brevity, I am not discussing yet the other scenario that I believe I eluded to earlier.? I am hoping I will have the opportunity subsequent to this.
I will keep listening and reading and learning and am grateful to be able to do so.
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Someone sent a message recommending this book:
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Faber & Mazlish "How to talk so kids will listen & listen so kids will talk"
?She wrote that it "came to mind in?connection with giving teenagers space for their ideas, that it's?full
of simple practical things to try and has cartoons."
(There were two recommendations, but the other book is by an author who has proven to be problematical (in my world, anyway) for being dishonest about her credentials, and then dishonest about her dishonesty.? Some people don't mind that as much as I do, but since it's my group, I'm unwilling to help promote people whose integrity is in question that way.)
I learned tricks and tools from?"How to talk so kids will listen & listen so kids will talk"?when my kids were little, before I knew I was going to unschool.? Once when Joyce and I were defending that book, some unschooling parents from France went a bit ballistic about it.? For some reason (maybe related to the translation?? Something cultural that we miss?) they condemn that book as a tool in France.? Maybe there are newer, younger, French parents who missed that and who don't hate the book.? Maybe there are some here who understand what the objection was.? Feel free to share that if you want to.
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
Karen James
