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Hello all, thought i'd post this and see if any interest comes back, seeing as the groups now closed, this would be a good time to see about migration. If anyone is interested at the end of the month, providing there is enough support and some help with regular funding, i am willing to register a domain name (as yet undecided) and host a package that will give the group a wider remit in regards to postings, pictures etc etc using perhaps PhP BBS or something similar, can I have a straw poll to see who is in favour of this, the initial costs will be borne by myself, the server will be US located but the domain will be my property and registered here in the UK. Any ideas for domain name please float then, i have a few myself.

I would also need a moderator aside from myself, so if anyone is up for the job stateside let me know.

regards to all,

John

I have two tubes running now, and each emits a high pitch whine when a digit is lit. I looked around, and I think this is called singing. right? Any way to fix this?

Thanks

Shane

Does anyone know who made these IN-18 PCB sockets which were once sold by Moses at All Spectrum Electronics? They are oval shaped and allow close placement of the tubes. I asked Moses but he does not know.




I need the masks to get 18 made up.

Thanks

Dan

On 03/09/2010, at 6:57 AM, Quixotic Nixotic wrote:

On 2 Sep 2010, at 16:06, Peter Gammie wrote:

I'd prefer a consensus that everyone is happy with, but our
previous discussions got bogged down and now it seems that Google
Groups is a fait accompli. So be it. I can't help but wonder if
there's any alternatives worth contemplating though.

It's a little unfair.

What is unfair?

I meant /technical/ alternatives, if that was ambiguous.

Nick de Smith has mirrored the group for a
while on Google, understanding what a precipitous situation the group
has been in, with an owner who owes bucks to members and is mostly
absent. He could pull the plug any time he chooses. The group is also
at the mercy of any changes Yahoo might throw at it, although I have
not been able to see for myself what crazy thing Yahoo did to push AJ
over the edge. I'd like to have done because I moderate another Yahoo
group.

Nick's pre-emptive activity has been purely pragmatic.

AJ no longer wishes to moderate the group and I understand his view.
I thank him for his wonderful job in being group nanny to date and
wish him a peaceful retirement from running a group about glass
bottles that glow orange if you treat them right, although I hope he
will continue to benefit us by his wisdom in future.

I know Nicko does not relish the idea of being saddled with hosting/
moderating a new group - he has many other fish to fry in the real
world, of way more importance.

Some people like the idea of a forum-style scenario and I say fine,
Mr Stuck Key has being trying to get some interest on his forum for a
while over at , but the interest has been
rather underwhelming, IMHO. You like fora? Then go there and make it
into something. It already exists and will only ever be as good as
people make it.

Some people like better being emailed messages, without the hassle of
logging in to any fora or any of that nonsense. The two things are in
reality different animals. Remember: "It's never a case of either or,
but always a case of both - and more."

We are in violent agreement, as I have indicated in my many previous posts on this topic. That does not make the decision to go to Google Groups any less of a fait accompli. :-)

cheers
peter

--

On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 3:57 PM, Quixotic Nixotic
<nixotic1@...> wrote:

Some people like better being emailed messages, without the hassle of
logging in to any fora or any of that nonsense. The two things are in
reality different animals. Remember: "It's never a case of either or,
but always a case of both - and more."

I personally have a strong preference for email lists over fora. I
have good tools for dealing with email already and fora generally trap
the data in the back end database which I find problematic. Also,
most of the fora I've looked at have a huge amount of visual noise
which detracts for reading the actual content.

I also think the move to Google Groups is just fine. It may not be an
optimal solution but I think that it is sufficient for our needs, it
largely done already and can be easily handed off to a new
administrator/moderator without going through all the work of changing
servers, etc. I, too, have a machine I could easily host this on but
I don't see a significant advantage to doing so.

My $0.02,

Jon

On 2 Sep 2010, at 16:06, Peter Gammie wrote:

I'd prefer a consensus that everyone is happy with, but our previous discussions got bogged down and now it seems that Google Groups is a fait accompli. So be it. I can't help but wonder if there's any alternatives worth contemplating though.

It's a little unfair. Nick de Smith has mirrored the group for a while on Google, understanding what a precipitous situation the group has been in, with an owner who owes bucks to members and is mostly absent. He could pull the plug any time he chooses. The group is also at the mercy of any changes Yahoo might throw at it, although I have not been able to see for myself what crazy thing Yahoo did to push AJ over the edge. I'd like to have done because I moderate another Yahoo group.

Nick's pre-emptive activity has been purely pragmatic.

AJ no longer wishes to moderate the group and I understand his view. I thank him for his wonderful job in being group nanny to date and wish him a peaceful retirement from running a group about glass bottles that glow orange if you treat them right, although I hope he will continue to benefit us by his wisdom in future.

I know Nicko does not relish the idea of being saddled with hosting/ moderating a new group - he has many other fish to fry in the real world, of way more importance.

Some people like the idea of a forum-style scenario and I say fine, Mr Stuck Key has being trying to get some interest on his forum for a while over at , but the interest has been rather underwhelming, IMHO. You like fora? Then go there and make it into something. It already exists and will only ever be as good as people make it.

Some people like better being emailed messages, without the hassle of logging in to any fora or any of that nonsense. The two things are in reality different animals. Remember: "It's never a case of either or, but always a case of both - and more."

My tuppence,

John S

Greetings,

Personally, I am happy with any solution which works. Google seems to work for now. However, if there is a problem with google is there any possibility of hosting the list at a university? For example there is a SCI-FI group in north carolina which has used UNC-CH Listserv for over 10 years.

Thank You,

Keith
aka
Dante

John,

On 02/09/2010, at 10:05 PM, NeonJohn wrote:

On 09/01/2010 10:22 PM, Peter Gammie wrote:

The problem with the private model is that we're at the mercy of an
individual. If you look at the archives at the Yahoo group you will
see that AJ has been the sole moderator precisely because the group
is privately owned, and the owner vanished. The solution is to spread
ownership a bit wider, which Nick seems open to.

Gotta correct a mis-conception here. This concept of owner vs moderator
is uniquely Yahoo. In MailMan there is a an administrative login.
Period. If I were to host this list I'd have the admin password, of
course, but so would every other moderator. If I lost interest in
neonixie, the other mods would still have full access rights and powers.
Hosting a list costs me nothing and neon-john.com is going to be around
for a long long time.

There are no shortage of offers for other hosts - indeed, I was planning to make one too. MailMan would suit me, and it is trivial to set up on my cooperative host (hcoop.net). I'd buy a domain, etc. and wear the cost. The sysadmins there might be persuaded to host it in perpetuity if it came to that.

However it is a non-starter due to the private ownership problem and also that people do want web forums, which is fair enough.

I'd prefer a consensus that everyone is happy with, but our previous discussions got bogged down and now it seems that Google Groups is a fait accompli. So be it. I can't help but wonder if there's any alternatives worth contemplating though.

cheers
peter

--

Bill, if Nick had not already replied;
There is a problem with a google registry, please toss your cookies, restart the browser, and all will be well again :)

/Barrett

On 09/01/2010 10:22 PM, Peter Gammie wrote:

The problem with the private model is that we're at the mercy of an
individual. If you look at the archives at the Yahoo group you will
see that AJ has been the sole moderator precisely because the group
is privately owned, and the owner vanished. The solution is to spread
ownership a bit wider, which Nick seems open to.

Gotta correct a mis-conception here. This concept of owner vs moderator
is uniquely Yahoo. In MailMan there is a an administrative login.
Period. If I were to host this list I'd have the admin password, of
course, but so would every other moderator. If I lost interest in
neonixie, the other mods would still have full access rights and powers.
Hosting a list costs me nothing and neon-john.com is going to be around
for a long long time.

Note that this is not a campaign on my part to get the list. I have
more than enough to do. It's me clarifying a misunderstanding and
offering a resource to the group.

That out of the way...

I'd also strongly advocate that we do not move to a web forum. To me
neonixie-l at Yahoo is a mailing list.

I agree in the strongest possible way. I HATE fora with a passion. IF
this list went forum, I'd be outta here.

John


--
John DeArmond
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
<-- email from here
<-- Best damned Blog on the net
PGP key: wwwkeys.pgp.net: BCB68D77

--- In NEONIXIE-L@..., "Derryck" <derryck@...> wrote:
...>

Same problem here as reported by others - attempted to join the new list, but was told that there was a problem with my subscription. Individual emails wanted.

Join using the digest option, then change it later by editing your preferences.

Cheers

Nick

--- In NEONIXIE-L@..., "Nick" <nick@...> wrote:

--- In NEONIXIE-L@..., "Terry" <tschw10117@> wrote:

I "applied" for membership with the google group. Not sure who has to approve me.

Here's the link again.



Terry.

At the moment its just me - if AJ gives me a list of all the email addresses of the members, I'll add them in bulk.

Same problem here as reported by others - attempted to join the new list, but was told that there was a problem with my subscription. Individual emails wanted.

Thanks for setting this up.

Cheers

Derryck

--- In NEONIXIE-L@..., "A.J." <a.j.franzman@...> wrote:

... (long post!)

Well, as I see it, Google Groups may well be a stop-gap for a while. It has several advantages (free, pretty reliable, reasonable features, allows attachments, can hold our historical data) and several disadvantages (flat file structure, no polls, no database etc.) and some things that are just the same (100Mb file limit etc.).

Whatever GG is, its not a panacea - it doesn't have the features of a phpBB or one of the other PHP-based fora.

To be fair, some of my reservations may be that I simply don't know enough about GG and its capabilities...

I'm completely open to ideas - to move all the Yahoo forum data will be a lot of work which, to be frank, I'm not keen on doing myself. Also, if you suck data from Yahoo!, they block your IP address for a while in case you're a bot making difficult to retrieve the historical data...

For the moment, I'm just waiting to see how this all pans out when the dust settles... no rushing around...

Cheers

Nick

--- In NEONIXIE-L@..., Adam Jacobs <jacobs.adam@...> wrote:

I can provide physical hosting on the Sun in my garage (5mbit
upstream), if that is of use to anyone at all.

--- In NEONIXIE-L@..., "Nick" <nick@...> wrote:

I have been quietly automatically shadowing neonixie-l since January
at: - anyone can join
(subject to the usual caveats to prevent spamming).

Others have done similar. AJ - If you want the Google Group, you are
welcome...

As I believe I said in another post, I want to take a break from administrating for a while, though I would be honored to be a moderator or co-owner of the Google group, or its successor (if there is to be one). Regarding technical aspects of server management, web hosting, mailservers, domain registration, copying content, replicating features, adding new features, etc., and otherwise acting as a webmaster -- I'm not well-versed in the IT and webforum/mailserver world, so I would much rather leave that stuff up to those who are. Anything within reason I can do to help from my current position, I will, but I don't want to get involved in the rest of it. I have copies here of the Yahoo NEONIXIE-L member lists in several formats, which I made immediately after my announcement the other night, and which I expect to be sending to Nicko soon for the purpose of inviting those who aren't yet aware of the situation to join the Google group.


--- In NEONIXIE-L@..., "Nick" <nick@...> wrote:

...should also have pointed at the topic list:



...and also to point out that I have absolutely no desire to run
this on my own, or even at all - the group was created 6 years ago
in case it was needed - it update[d] automatically from Yahoo every
few minutes, and is otherwise pretty much as per here.

Not having participated in a Google Group before now, I notice that yours does not (yet?) have a Photos section, but there are (only) several photos in the Files section. Do Google Groups offer a Photos section? If so, does it allow the feature that Yahoo trashed on us a few years ago, the ability to create nested albums? It sure would be nice to restore our Photos to that format.

The files section has not been moved, but that could be done
reasonably easily... (I think!).

As I mentioned, others have done similar things - the Google groups
are pretty much identical in format & facilities to the Yahoo ones

Does "pretty much" include the all of the features we've made use of (Web and Email forum with archive, Files, Photos, Links, Database, Polls, Calendar) and those we haven't (such as Chat and all of the Yahoo Applications -- Address Book, Birthdays, Favorites, For Sale, Give Away, Group Profile, How To, Jobs, People Map, Places Map, Questions & Answers, Quote Me, RSVP, Rate My Pics, Recipes, Reviews)? I realize that some of those would be rather pointless, but one never knows what the membership might want. What options does Google Groups offer for handling email attachments?


--- In NEONIXIE-L@..., "jensboos" <neuss.boos@...> wrote:

I turned on my omputer today and found these mails, and I am a
little surprised, my Yahoo looks the same as it has ever looked,
frankly I see no difference.

But in case the "crap" returns, what should we do? The Google group
from Nick seems a good option, but weren't there discussions about
a "real" forum lately given all the disadvantages of mailing lists?

I think this could be the time that we settle a whole new system,
i.e. a PHP based forum, they are really easy to create, the only
problem is webspace.

Per my earlier comments, PHP is over my head. If that's what is decided upon, someone else will have to handle it.


--- In NEONIXIE-L@..., "fixitsan2" <fixitsan@...> wrote:

There are no changes evident here too. I run two other groups and
they look the same as they ever have.

Perhaps it's being done country by country, or has anyone else in
the UK already experienced a change ?

--- In NEONIXIE-L@..., Quixotic Nixotic <nixotic1@...> wrote:

Same as it ever was for me too, in the UK. What were/are they doing?

They had completely re-skinned (not sure if that's the correct terminology) the home page and the message viewing pages in a "modern" black on gray, gray and more gray scheme (which made no use of the custom colors I selected for this group long ago). Many of the nice little features that we've become accustomed to being available by links or buttons were gone. Viewing messages was a nightmare, as there was very limited ability to sort (only by topic or in order of posting, with no ascending/descending option) and many messages were truncated with no obvious means to show their entirety. Absolutely all indications of what was quoted (vs. original material) in posts were stripped away: no rows of dashes, no ">"s, no indentation, no header lines identifying the prior posters, etc. Someone had to have worked very hard to screw that up so royally (no offense intended to the monarchophiles among us). I didn't see any option to view a single post at a time either -- there was always a stack of several onscreen no matter which options I chose.

Upon following the homepage link to the "Groups Blog" < >, I saw that the change was reportedly being rolled out only in the U.S. There was also a note that "You might notice that your Group might switch between versions as we complete all of the group migrations." So, I noticed that later that night that the 'upgrade' had been reverted. There's no telling when it will return, but I'm certain that it will.


--- In NEONIXIE-L@..., "Terry" <tschw10117@...> wrote:
<snip>

Is there any reason to stay with Yahoo? Limited space for files
might be an issue.

It appears to me that Google Groups has the same limit as Yahoo; 100 MB per group for Files.


--- In NEONIXIE-L@..., NeonJohn <jgd@...> wrote:

Not so quick, grasshopper! Before making any sort of move, I think that
we need to discuss whether we want to be at the mercy of another large
corp, in this case Google. Google is well known for dropping services
(such as Google Answers) that it doesn't like anymore. Groups could
disappear at any time.

Well, that was always a possibility at Yahoo too. I don't know whether, even now, anyone (or any combination of people!) has a complete backup of NEONIXIE-L.

Groups is also a spam magnet. I read somewhere (wired?) within the last
couple of days that Google has admitted the problem exists and is going
to do something about it Real Soon Now.

If you've checked out more than a handful of Yahoo Groups, you've probably noticed that spam is epidemic here too. Blame it on Yahoo's not clarifying to group owners and moderators the difference between the posting permissions options "everyone", and "members". I think "everyone" may even be the default!

The alternative, and in my opinion the way to go, is to move the list to
a privately operated server such as the several that have volunteered
including myself. A private server that has been there for awhile is
not likely to go away and is probably going to be better managed. I
like the MailMan system which is why I use it for my mailing lists.

--- In NEONIXIE-L@..., NeonJohn <jgd@...> wrote:

Assuming you'll continue to moderate, I can host the list on my MailMan
system. Just say the word and I can have it set up in a few minutes.
One good thing about neon-john.com, it'll be there as long as I'm living
which will hopefully be a few more decades.

--- In NEONIXIE-L@..., Bjorn Again <mimewar@...> wrote:

If someone can do the web design, I will gladly pay the hosting
fees for a web forum. I have learned a lot from this group, and I
want to keep it as good if not better than it was.

--- In NEONIXIE-L@..., Peter Gammie <peteg42@...> wrote:

Firstly, thanks AJ for your efforts with this group.

John,

On 01/09/2010, at 10:45 PM, NeonJohn wrote:

The alternative, and in my opinion the way to go, is to move the list to
a privately operated server such as the several that have volunteered
including myself. A private server that has been there for awhile is
not likely to go away and is probably going to be better managed. I
like the MailMan system which is why I use it for my mailing lists.

The problem with the private model is that we're at the mercy of an
individual. If you look at the archives at the Yahoo group you will
see that AJ has been the sole moderator precisely because the group
is privately owned, and the owner vanished. The solution is to
spread ownership a bit wider, which Nick seems open to.

If you're worried about Google groups going away, then by all means
mirror the group on your private server, like Nick was doing at
Google Groups before this recent upheaval. You could even make that
archive public.

I'd also strongly advocate that we do not move to a web forum. To
me neonixie-l at Yahoo is a mailing list. It may be something else
to others, but to me that is a critical feature - I can process
email much more flexibly than yet another web forum that requires
me to visit it, that can disappear at any moment, etc.

Which is not to say that we can't have both: Google Groups is the
future, I humbly suggest.

As I wrote above, most of this technical stuff is over my head and I don't really want to get involved with it. However, having the group on a private server could be problematic. Even some of the younger among us, are unfortunately destined to depart this world too soon and suddenly, as Michael Gray did early last year. Similarly, I wouldn't want just one person to be responsible for paying hosting and/or domain registration fees, so something more perpetual would need to be set up (non-profit corporation?)

I also agree with Peter that NEONIXIE-L is different things to different people. Many prefer it to be a mailing list, while others such as myself regard it as a web forum. I would hope that whatever form the group morphs into, it continues to support both of those aspects at the very least.

A.J.

--- In NEONIXIE-L@..., Bill S <wls@...> wrote:

Nick,
I tried to join the google group but when I sign in I get a redirect
that doesn't seem to end. Has there been a problem?
Bill S

No real problems I know of, except a steep learning curve!

It may be the browser/OS you are using - what is your environment like?

Cheers

Nick

--- In NEONIXIE-L@..., "Jonathan Peakall" <jpeakall@...> wrote:

AJ, All,

Are you moving to the new group? Are you going to moderate? This list is well kept, and I know as you had to straighten me out about snipping post to a minimum :-0

Anyway, I'm all for the move if AJ is going to keep moderating, or at least some other grownup. (Which rules me out :-0 )

And in any case, thanks for all the effort AJ!

Jonathan,

I have joined the Google group. Nick has invited me to be a moderator there, but I'd like to take a break from administrating for a while. In addition to Nick I can think of several members here whom I would support as moderators of a replacement group, whether it stays at Google or moves elsewhere.

You're (all) welcome, and thank you very much for the compliments and support!

A.J.

--- In NEONIXIE-L@..., "Barrett" <linuxratz@...> wrote:

One item to remember is that the existing yahoo forum can be deleted
by it's owner -Ray So it might be wise to copy all files/photo/etc
contents now.

...which I highly recommend that anyone with the desire and capability to do so with a minimum of effort, to undertake with all practical speed.

About the only area I wouldn't bother saving, would be the Calendar. It hasn't worked properly or been updated for several years. The only item in there that I know of that's worth preserving is the (still ongoing) monthly W6TRW Amateur Radio Club swap meet held at the Northrop/Grumman facility in Redondo Beach, California. If anyone wants to search back through the past events for any others that are still valid, you're welcome to do so, but I believe it will be something of an arduous and thankless (possibly fruitless) task.

If at all possible, I would like to see the photos preserved at what Yahoo calls "original" size, and the associated uploader credit & captions info to also be saved. A while back, Yahoo's code was such that anytime a moderator edited a photo's caption, the upload credit was changed to that of the moderator. As soon as I noticed that lunacy, I started providing the original uploader credit in the edited captions -- so whomever undertakes this project should be aware, that there is also some editing to be done, by examining all photo upload credits attributed to me, and checking the captions to see if the photos actually belong to someone else, and if so making appropriate changes to both the uploader credit and the caption.

Taking it even further:
Although I'd never think the Google group might be lost, perhaps
someone could propose a way to ensure it couldn't be?

I can't think of any way to absolutely ensure that it wouldn't, though having multiple mirrors would be a strong step in the right direction. Also, a way to help avoid problems such as we now face, would be for the new group to have more than one trusted active owner with full privileges at all times. That way, if one of the owners turns absentee or otherwise ceases participation, the one(s) that remain can appoint a replacement. Having mirrors would ensure that if one of the owners were to turn rogue and attempt to sabotage the group, it could easily be restored. If possible, NO ONE should have the ability to delete the group, even including its creator.

A.J.

--- In NEONIXIE-L@..., Ian Martin <ianmartinphotography@...> wrote:

I'd respectfully suggest that AJ or another moderator make everything on the
Yahoo forum public so that anyone can access its information rich archive; I
can't imagine that there is anything on there that's very private that no
one else would want seen by the general public? Then, turn off the
synchronization making the Yahoo group a research library/museum...

I've made as much public as I can.

BTW, there is no "other moderator", aside from absentee owner Ray Weisling -- which is one of the big reasons for this shake-up.

A.J.

--- In NEONIXIE-L@..., Joe Croft <joe@...> wrote:

it seems when I post a message to the new list it gets sent to the yahoo
list which then barfs it back because it doesn't recognize my gmail address.

That's probably because your email address on the Yahoo list is given as joe [at] croftj.net. Any attempt to post to the Yahoo group from an email address that isn't associated with a user in the Yahoo member list will be rejected, because we allow posts only from members (groups that allow posts by "anyone" have a huge spam problem).

A.J.