Jim,
The signal systems used by signal mast logic (SML) are usually based on prototype rule books. ?The quality of the implementation does vary. ?SML implements ABS. ?APB and CTC are then implemented with other logic such as LogixNG.
Dave Sand
----- Original message -----
Subject: Re: [jmriusers] LogixNG vs Jython performance #jython #logixng
Date: Saturday, March 22, 2025 5:01 AM
Regarding George's question about efficiency and the observations that followed, I'll add some of my own perhaps practical observations.? I'm addressing the larger aspects of developing a signal system.?
?
I'm finally close to having a finished switchable ABS/CTC LogixNG layout control application, that has five controlled sidings, a dozen intermediate signals, and at least a hundred occupancy sensors.? It is controlled by a JMRI-graphics CTC lever panel that properly emulates a Western Pacific office machine, including all the panel lamps and levers and working US&S 506 Time-Code code lamps and recorded relay audio, with proper time delays doing field I/O.? This covers half our club layout, and I'll finish the other half in the next year or so.? I'm using CMRI hardware on a 56Kbaud serial bus to several cpNode controllers in the "field" (layout room) for I/O.? The turnout controllers are custom, and can emulate both Dual Control and Electric Locked switches;? each have 6 I/O pins for control and position/lock feedback.? There are several hundred items in the JMRI sensor and turnout tables, and many in the Heads, Masts and audio tables.? All the signal logic is done in LogixNG (vs. SML, SSL, CTC, etc).? In other words, I did everything with LogixNG.? There are two large graphics panels (the CTC office panel and a "field" monitor panel) and a couple minor ones.
?
So, how big is the software?? The XML file is 12MB, which has 250K lines of code in the file (all generated with PanelPro).? I don't know how this compares to other large layouts.? I'm guessing the final build-out will be 50% larger.? I'm using the latest production release of PanelPro and JAVA 17.? I'm developing this on my newer Windows laptop (in SIM mode), and running the layout-connected app on a newer modest Windows desktop machine, both on Win11.?
?
How does it run?? It starts on both platforms very rapidly (a few seconds), and runs below 10% of the CPU.? I'm not seeing any real-time lags in doing anything.? I haven't seen any odd behavior in the aspects of the ~50 signal masts over several hours of use during ops, nor seen any lockups or odd System Console errors being thrown.? Not sure why I'd want or need to make it more efficient.? I'm not seeing anything that's a problem, and those I've issues I've reported get fixed pretty quick (other than my request for a feature to clear the clipboard... bump).
?
How about ability to maintain this monster app??? That's perhaps the big challenge, even for the developer (me).? While I'm actively working on it and have the full context in my brain, it's easy to do.? On the other hand, if months go by I do forget a lot of how things are being done and where.? To mitigate that I've maintained WORD, EXCEL, and VISIO docs as I've gone along that covers tables, contents, functions, strategies and flows that get me back up to speed.? It also has notes on how LogixNG does things (not always intuitive or well documented online).? As always, a straight-forward elegant design is always going to be easier to learn/maintain than a chaotic undocumented design.? I've tried to be clear and consistent doing things vs. clever and inconsistent.? I think I've used almost all the LogixNG features except for Modules, Sensor Groups and Servers.? Regarding others doing the maintaining?? That's going to be a big lift.?
?
Even if a club has programing members, few are going to be experienced in LogixNG.? I've talked to a lot of guys, some railroad signalmen, that learned and are using the original Logix and consider the jump to LogixNG would be difficult, and that the older Logix is closer to the railroad relay logic they know well.? Knowing both (relay logic and programming languages), I'm not so sure the latter is true, but LogixNG does have more "stuff" it can do and has more to learn to get that power.? It has taken months to figure out how to use the "new" features I needed, so they have a point.? BUT, no way would I want to try to do everything I'm doing with Logix.? In the end, learning the features paid off but it was a lift.? Makes a lot of us wish there were classes on this stuff, but in their absence we have this GIO group.? *Lots* of times the regulars on this forum got me unstuck, and I'm not sure what the alternative is.
?
Long term viability?? The older versions of JMRI and JAVA stick around, so I don't see big risk in letting a production machine run for years without updating.? This is more like a machine controller application that will work fine for a long time once solid and left alone, vs. something that's dynamically being pushed along over time.? Now, if the layout changes, then that's a functionally driven change.? Our layout computer is strictly offline (standalone) so that I don't have to worry about Microsoft updating and breaking something, which is a real thing.? We also have strict change control since operations is a key part of the club.?
?
Nor do I think the JMRI team is at risk of going away any time soon.? The team is strong from what I can see, and use good procedures.
?
Alternative JMRI approaches?? I don't know anything about the "packaged" signal solutions to comment.? I do know I'm approaching the signal control points and signal aspects the way the railroad signal department does, regarding input factors and control outputs.? I also have a prototype in mind and want to emulate that operation precisely, both in the field (layout) and in the DS office (CTC control panel).? I'm doing route signaling so don't have a huge set of aspects.? My goal was to have the flexibility to do what I wanted vs. take what the "package" provides (and assuming it has tradeoffs I don't want).? No doubt these "packaged" solutions will get better and perhaps at some point overtake the complex if-then-else digital formulas approach I'm doing.? Lots (most?) layout owners probably don't feel a need for precise control and are happy for all the help they can get with signals... they *are* hard.? From what I've seen, the JMRI team knows railroad signaling, so I'm assuming the "packaged" solutions are going to be pretty good, albeit generic else slanted to certain prototypes.?
?
Like everything about a hobby, there are tradeoffs... what makes you happy, and how much time/money you have for a task.? Signals are a big task no matter how you do them and not quick.? JMRI LogixNG is a safe and effective choice small or large, and I suspect the "packaged" signaling solutions will also work fine.
?
--
Jim Moomaw
Portland, OR
- Willamette Model Railroad Club (WMRC)
- NMRA, Pacific NW
|
Bob,
There is a comment that I did not copy:
// infer a background icon from its size
This occurs when "dropping" an icon on the CPE panel.
Dave Sand
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
----- Original message ----- From: "Bob Jacobsen via groups.io" <rgj1927@...> To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [jmriusers] How is the default layer assigned to resource folder icons used with the panel editors? Date: Saturday, March 22, 2025 9:38 AM I think that code dates back to when there wasn’t a way to change the level of something on a panel. It was probably meant to make sure that large, background images _stayed_ in the background. Maybe that’s no longer important? Bob On Mar 22, 2025, at 10:33?AM, Dave Sand via groups.io <ds@...> wrote:
Jim,
I suspect this answers the question.
if (icon.getIconHeight() > 500 || icon.getIconWidth() > 600) {
ni.setDisplayLevel(BKG); BKG is defined as level 1.
— Bob Jacobsen rgj1927@...
|
I think that code dates back to when there wasn’t a way to change the level of something on a panel. It was probably meant to make sure that large, background images _stayed_ in the background. Maybe that’s no longer important? Bob On Mar 22, 2025, at 10:33?AM, Dave Sand via groups.io <ds@...> wrote:
Jim,
I suspect this answers the question.
if (icon.getIconHeight() > 500 || icon.getIconWidth() > 600) {
ni.setDisplayLevel(BKG); BKG is defined as level 1.
— Bob Jacobsen rgj1927@...
|
Panel selection doesn't work
#rpi
Pi 5 with bookworm, Java 17 and JMRI 5.10.? JMRI Panels have an item called Windows in the title bar.? When clicking on this item a drop own opens listing all the active JMRI panels.? Clicking on a panel name should bring that Panel to the foreground and mark it as the active panel but in the configuration listed nothing happens when clicking on a panel name.? There are? no messages in the system log.
Dale Gloer
Jack of all trades at home and Southern Alberta Model Railway
|
Linking labels not working
Running a Pi5 with bookworm, Java 17 and JMRI 5.10.? I have several panels with linking labels that link to other panels.? These have worked for years over many releases of the OS and JMRI but in the current one described they do not work.? When clicking on a label nothing happens and there are no errors in the system log.
--
Dale Gloer
Jack of all trades at home and Southern Alberta Model Railway
|
Jim,
I suspect this answers the question.
??????????????? if (icon.getIconHeight() > 500 || icon.getIconWidth() > 600) {
??????????????????? ni.setDisplayLevel(BKG);
BKG is defined as level 1.
Dave Sand
----- Original message -----
Subject: [jmriusers] How is the default layer assigned to resource folder icons used with the PanelPro panel editors?
Date: Saturday, March 22, 2025 6:47 AM
Normally GIF objects I create and add using CPE are higher than 1.? I recently created a large transparent GIF to cover a panel, and which I wanted to set to a level # above background objects and lamps I don't want to change with mouse-clicks, and below controls I do want to operate.? However, when I added the icon I couldn't manipulate it with CPE.? It dragged over but then disappeared.? By jumping to PE I could see it was set to layer 1 like CTC plates, and where I could set it higher than 1 so I can manipulate it with CPE which I normally use.
?
Which raises the question... how is the layer number assigned to icons placed in resource icon folders?? Why was this GIF set at 1 while the others are not?? Is this something I can change when creating GIF or after loaded in folder?
?
--
Jim Moomaw
Portland, OR
- Willamette Model Railroad Club (WMRC)
- NMRA, Pacific NW
|
Locked
Re: Best Command Station to use with Decoder Pro
John,?
It's not RailCommunity that has a problem it's the NMRA and that was one of the reasons why RailComunity started issuing their own specifications in the first place was because the NMRA was not keeping on top of things!
?
Michael?
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Locked
Re: Best Command Station to use with Decoder Pro
Michael,
?
I admire the work you put in for MERG members in translation. It would seem maybe the railcommunity may need to come to terms and have their documents in English rather than just German. Then perhaps the main player will adopt them sooner than later.
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Locked
Re: Best Command Station to use with Decoder Pro
Since TCS and now MRC are going into RailCom, I think the understanding and interest in RailCom is going to grow in the US. But just like the adoption of LCC, it will take a while. As more products becomes available in the US, more users will get more understanding etc.… ? At some point that will include some willing AND able to help keep the NMRA involved. Right now, I suspect the number of people who feel comfortable with the technology are way too busy with what they are doing either with RailCom or other technology. ? -Ken Cameron, Member JMRI Dev Team
? ?
|
There's another approach...
The one area where the DecoderPro/Lok programming goes into the weeds is the sound slots. They aren't always the same. If there's a listed project it's documentation contains the list of the sound in what slot, then it's easy (well easier) to use the stock Lok programming in JMRI.
Hard to explain without the programmer open...
I have a wide screen display might be interesting to see how the two app approach would work with both up on the screen... no note taking...
Jim Albanowski
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Locked
Re: Best Command Station to use with Decoder Pro
Dick,
It was not a cheap shot at the NMRA as you put it. The fact that the RailCommunity’s RailCom spec. RCN-217 is the fastest changing and largest spec. out of all the DCC specifications and needs updating for the user’s sake. For your information I was contacted some time back by a NMRA member apparently part of the team updating the NMRA’s version of the RailCom spec., he requested a copy of the latest English version of RCN-217 which I duly provided him with (so they have an English copy) and was told they would keep in contact, never heard from him since.
?
To clarify my position in all this, I’m a member of Merg and have taken ALL the RailCommunity’s ??DCC specifications and translated them into English, and keep them up to date. I’m a totally non-paid volunteer and have made all these DCC specs. available to the Merg membership only through their website. So, if Merg can do it the NMRA should be able to as well. If you wish to read the latest DCC specs. join Merg.
?
I’m not sure that it’s a problem of unpaid manpower more the interest in RailCom. I have been involved in the bidirectional element of DCC for quite sometime now and it seems that the North American market doesn’t want to know about RailCom. Digitrax has quite a large hold on the DCC market over there and promote their own Transponding system which is not NMRA compliant and is incompatible with RailCom which is compliant.
?
jmri is the poorer without RailCom and the required hardware is cheap, simple and many decoder have the option built in already. ???
|
Normally GIF objects I create and add using CPE are higher than 1.? I recently created a large transparent GIF to cover a panel, and which I wanted to set to a level # above background objects and lamps I don't want to change with mouse-clicks, and below controls I do want to operate.? However, when I added the icon I couldn't manipulate it with CPE.? It dragged over but then disappeared.? By jumping to PE I could see it was set to layer 1 like CTC plates, and where I could set it higher than 1 so I can manipulate it with CPE which I normally use.
?
Which raises the question... how is the layer number assigned to icons placed in resource icon folders?? Why was this GIF set at 1 while the others are not?? Is this something I can change when creating GIF or after loaded in folder?
?
--
Jim Moomaw
Portland, OR
- Willamette Model Railroad Club (WMRC)
- NMRA, Pacific NW
|
Download ESU Lok Programmer Software. Its free,
?
Load which ever sound file you are working with. Make which ever changes you need then
go to Tools and click on Show Changed CV's.
?
It gives you a list of changed CV's. You can then Use Decoder Pro to make the appropriate changes.? ? ?
?
?
?
|
I would like to know how to set faded sound levels using JMRI with ESU decoders.
Is there a definitive guide anywhere I could see - either video or text based - that explains the sound settings in detail?
Thanks in advance.
Chris
|
Regarding George's question about efficiency and the observations that followed, I'll add some of my own perhaps practical observations.? I'm addressing the larger aspects of developing a signal system.?
?
I'm finally close to having a finished switchable ABS/CTC LogixNG layout control application, that has five controlled sidings, a dozen intermediate signals, and at least a hundred occupancy sensors.? It is controlled by a JMRI-graphics CTC lever panel that properly emulates a Western Pacific office machine, including all the panel lamps and levers and working US&S 506 Time-Code code lamps and recorded relay audio, with proper time delays doing field I/O.? This covers half our club layout, and I'll finish the other half in the next year or so.? I'm using CMRI hardware on a 56Kbaud serial bus to several cpNode controllers in the "field" (layout room) for I/O.? The turnout controllers are custom, and can emulate both Dual Control and Electric Locked switches;? each have 6 I/O pins for control and position/lock feedback.? There are several hundred items in the JMRI sensor and turnout tables, and many in the Heads, Masts and audio tables.? All the signal logic is done in LogixNG (vs. SML, SSL, CTC, etc).? In other words, I did everything with LogixNG.? There are two large graphics panels (the CTC office panel and a "field" monitor panel) and a couple minor ones.
?
So, how big is the software?? The XML file is 12MB, which has 250K lines of code in the file (all generated with PanelPro).? I don't know how this compares to other large layouts.? I'm guessing the final build-out will be 50% larger.? I'm using the latest production release of PanelPro and JAVA 17.? I'm developing this on my newer Windows laptop (in SIM mode), and running the layout-connected app on a newer modest Windows desktop machine, both on Win11.?
?
How does it run?? It starts on both platforms very rapidly (a few seconds), and runs below 10% of the CPU.? I'm not seeing any real-time lags in doing anything.? I haven't seen any odd behavior in the aspects of the ~50 signal masts over several hours of use during ops, nor seen any lockups or odd System Console errors being thrown.? Not sure why I'd want or need to make it more efficient.? I'm not seeing anything that's a problem, and those I've issues I've reported get fixed pretty quick (other than my request for a feature to clear the clipboard... bump).
?
How about ability to maintain this monster app??? That's perhaps the big challenge, even for the developer (me).? While I'm actively working on it and have the full context in my brain, it's easy to do.? On the other hand, if months go by I do forget a lot of how things are being done and where.? To mitigate that I've maintained WORD, EXCEL, and VISIO docs as I've gone along that covers tables, contents, functions, strategies and flows that get me back up to speed.? It also has notes on how LogixNG does things (not always intuitive or well documented online).? As always, a straight-forward elegant design is always going to be easier to learn/maintain than a chaotic undocumented design.? I've tried to be clear and consistent doing things vs. clever and inconsistent.? I think I've used almost all the LogixNG features except for Modules, Sensor Groups and Servers.? Regarding others doing the maintaining?? That's going to be a big lift.?
?
Even if a club has programing members, few are going to be experienced in LogixNG.? I've talked to a lot of guys, some railroad signalmen, that learned and are using the original Logix and consider the jump to LogixNG would be difficult, and that the older Logix is closer to the railroad relay logic they know well.? Knowing both (relay logic and programming languages), I'm not so sure the latter is true, but LogixNG does have more "stuff" it can do and has more to learn to get that power.? It has taken months to figure out how to use the "new" features I needed, so they have a point.? BUT, no way would I want to try to do everything I'm doing with Logix.? In the end, learning the features paid off but it was a lift.? Makes a lot of us wish there were classes on this stuff, but in their absence we have this GIO group.? *Lots* of times the regulars on this forum got me unstuck, and I'm not sure what the alternative is.
?
Long term viability?? The older versions of JMRI and JAVA stick around, so I don't see big risk in letting a production machine run for years without updating.? This is more like a machine controller application that will work fine for a long time once solid and left alone, vs. something that's dynamically being pushed along over time.? Now, if the layout changes, then that's a functionally driven change.? Our layout computer is strictly offline (standalone) so that I don't have to worry about Microsoft updating and breaking something, which is a real thing.? We also have strict change control since operations is a key part of the club.?
?
Nor do I think the JMRI team is at risk of going away any time soon.? The team is strong from what I can see, and use good procedures.
?
Alternative JMRI approaches?? I don't know anything about the "packaged" signal solutions to comment.? I do know I'm approaching the signal control points and signal aspects the way the railroad signal department does, regarding input factors and control outputs.? I also have a prototype in mind and want to emulate that operation precisely, both in the field (layout) and in the DS office (CTC control panel).? I'm doing route signaling so don't have a huge set of aspects.? My goal was to have the flexibility to do what I wanted vs. take what the "package" provides (and assuming it has tradeoffs I don't want).? No doubt these "packaged" solutions will get better and perhaps at some point overtake the complex if-then-else digital formulas approach I'm doing.? Lots (most?) layout owners probably don't feel a need for precise control and are happy for all the help they can get with signals... they *are* hard.? From what I've seen, the JMRI team knows railroad signaling, so I'm assuming the "packaged" solutions are going to be pretty good, albeit generic else slanted to certain prototypes.?
?
Like everything about a hobby, there are tradeoffs... what makes you happy, and how much time/money you have for a task.? Signals are a big task no matter how you do them and not quick.? JMRI LogixNG is a safe and effective choice small or large, and I suspect the "packaged" signaling solutions will also work fine.
?
--
Jim Moomaw
Portland, OR
- Willamette Model Railroad Club (WMRC)
- NMRA, Pacific NW
|
Locked
Re: Best Command Station to use with Decoder Pro
Back to the topic? "Best Command Station to use with Decoder Pro
?
I have a Z21 command station from Roco. This works wonderfully with DecoderPro and reads even complex ESU decoders in a few minutes via PoM (Railcom as feedback). The speed advantage over the DCC programming track method with ACK pulses is about 1:15.
?
Uli
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Locked
PERMITTED TOPICS - A general reminder for everyone
#admin
We would like to point out that this list is for discussions related to JMRI, and is intended to be a place that people, particularly beginners, can turn to for help with their JMRI problems from more experienced JMRI users.
General DCC and model railroading topics should be taken to a more appropriate forum and NOT be posted here. SPAM of any kind, politics, legal issues, and other off-topic matters should NOT be posted to the list and will be subject to deletion by the moderators, as will any responses to such off-topic matters. New members still on moderated status will find that off-topic posts will not be approved for posting, and old members making such posts may find themselves back on moderated status.
BUY / SELL and ADVERTISING is NOT PERMITTED
Let's keep things simple for all of us, and keep the discussion here on-topic.
Your moderators
|
Re: Anyone Have a Schedule Strategy to Put Long Train Into Multiple Staging Cassettes?
#operationspro
What the software thinks and what the operator does are two different things.
I think I will set one cassette at double capacity and keep one as "overflow".
I'll leave the other cassettes at configured length.
If OpsPro builds a train destined for that long cassette, it will be the yardmaster to put the extras on the overflow cassette.
When a build must use the "big" cassette, the yardmaster will need to pull both cassettes.
The "shorter" cassettes will add a bit of variety to the local freight.
--
Ken NYNH&H, Old Colony Division, Cape Cod Branch (1949-1959) Loconet * JMRI 5.11.1 * OSX,Win10,Ubuntu
Blog: ?
Youtube:
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Tony
If you do not see a column you want,? such as ghost, right click the column header to show or hide columns. Works on most a y table (or should).
Steve G.
?
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Re: Functions above F12 not working using Digitrax PR4
#digitrax
Or buy a SPROG and do your programming and testing with that
That’s what I diss when I needed a stand-alone test system
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 21 Mar 2025, at 21:46, Semms via groups.io <mnsamp@...> wrote:
?
Thanks for the info.? I figured it was a limitation of the PR4.? I'm going to connect it to the DB150 and create another profile for decoder pro to run it with that and see if i can send functions above 12 that way.? I guess the ultimate goal is going
to be using a DTDP switch to either have it in standalone mode or through the command station so i can program and then test the functions on the same programming track.
?
?
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Bob Jacobsen
Dale Gloer
Ken Cameron
@_Uli_
Ken Heywood