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Re: Panel Pro - looking for up to date Tutorial for CPE
John,
Using CPE and SML is fine. Doing so DOES change how the SML is created.
¡°Automatic" generation of SML is based on the block topology defined by the Layout Editor track plan.
"Manual" creation of the SML does not require any panel of any type. The signal mast pairs, turnout positions and block states are entered directly into the SML definition screen.
Some people create a LE panel to provide the block topology and then create a CPE (or PE) panel for running the layout. The LE panel is either hidden or sits behind the CPE panel.
Dave Sand
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On Dec 4, 2018, at 2:41 AM, John Pearson <pearsonjohn99@...> wrote:
Dick
Thanks you for the EXCELLENT reply dated Dec 2nd it has opened my eyes to the differences in the different JMRI design systems. I agree with Alan B Pearce¡¯s comments ¡° it should be in FAQ¡± As a newby JMRI bless it is akin to drinking from a full bore fire hydrant !
To your note it is apparent that I should be using (CPE ). Control Panel Editor
My layout is quite small and caters around an interlocking controlled by a CTC machine. there are several back to back crossovers and a flat crossing with 4 90 degree diamonds, many of the signals are eye candy with of stage virtuals.
I have no room for ABS or long stretches of track.
Signal Masts are obviously the way to go ( thanks again for the explanation )
What I need now more than anything is a JMRI tutorial covering CPE & SML
BTW I have some of your SM LEDs ( RR-CirKits ) the Colors are excellent
Many thanks
John Pearson
On 3 Dec 2018, at 11:55, Alan B. Pearce <alan.b.pearce@...> wrote:
This needs to be in an FAQ somewhere. Thanks to Dick for a clear definition of the differences.
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of dick bronson
Sent: 02 December 2018 23:47
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [jmriusers] Panel Pro - Layout Editor - looking for up to date Tutorial
John,
I'll make some (many) comments based on my personal opinions.
a) Layout editor (LE) is a vector view of your layout. I.e. the toe bone connects to the foot bone, the foot bone, connects to the ankle bone, .... It is designed to document and edit the connectedness of the layout. It only allow for one definition of each chunk of the layout. (vector) As soon as you have two turnouts that operate as one (e.g. crossover) or two detectors that operate as one you need to fight the system to figure out how to defeat its basic nature. (typically by making an internal shadow to define the duplicate item) It was never designed to make a CTC panel drawing in the first place. Doing so is sort of like trying to use a CAD program to paint a landscape.
b) The Control Panel Editor (CPE) is designed to create a pictorial CTC machine (Control Panel) view of your layout. It consists of various icons and images that allow you to recreate either a classic or modern CTC panel with surprising fidelity. It neither knows nor cares how one image or icon connects to another. The disadvantage of that of course is that you need to manual define the items and how they fit together or what they control. The advantage of that is that it will not try to force you into its own way of doing things.
c) The Panel Editor (PE) is the original JMRI panel editor which has been superseded by the Control Panel Editor which has many new features and ease of use advantages over the original. PE should have been depreciated years ago, but JMRI seldom does that for anything.
d) Signal heads refers to the class of hardware that can only control a signal one set of lights at a time. Typically it controls R, Y, and G lamps.
e) Signal Masts refers to an entire signal, be it one head or many heads, 3 lights per head or 7, etc. Typically it operates by sending aspect messages, not individual light commands. However if your hardware doesn't understand aspects, then JMRI can create signal aspects out of multiple heads.
f) SSL stands for Simple Signal Logic. Think 'Simple' as in 'Simple minded', not simple as in 'Easy'. It does basic ABS on single track fairly well. However as soon as you add a crossover or anything more complex you need to cross your eyes and stand on one leg to figure out how to make it work correctly. (mostly done by adding invisible signals and calling them 'distant')
g) SML Signal Mast Logic. IMHO This is the way signal logic should always be done. It treats signaling as aspects (per the prototype). It calculates aspects as they relate to pairs of signals, i.e. the signal you are facing paired with the next signal along the path you will be taking. It has built in rules for a growing number of prototype railroads. This saves you a lot of research into how signaling should be done on your railroad. It takes the most complex trackage in its stride. For each signal pair you simply list the correct turnout positions along that route and list all the blocks between this signal and the next.
h) NEVER mix SSL and SML unless you enjoy cat fights and detective mysteries. They do not play at all nicely with one another and you will be left wondering just why in the world your signals behave the way they do.
i) Crossovers in CTC territory are two blocks. When calculating any block requirements always think about how many different trains can occupy any given area at the same time. That is the number of block detectors required. For single track it is one, unless the track is long, then it may be several so one train can follow another. For a single turnout it is one. For a crossover it is two, one on each side if they are passing. For a yard ladder it is ........ one. (unless you can switch two parts of the ladder at the same time somehow) Of course a yard ladder is not usually signaled, but it makes a nice example. <G>
Dick :)
._,_._,_
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Ops: "Percentage of custom loads generated by staging"
I am a little confused by this option on the Schedules page.
1) Does it only apply to the current spur, current schedule, or universally?
2) If it applies to the current, does it apply to all of the custom loads listed in the schedule?
3) Do I assume that the 'generate load' options for the staging track control which custom loads are actually built?
Thanks in advance,
Jon
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Re: Initial setting of sensors in Layout Editor
Thanks Steve & Ken.
Thats my first visit to Routes.
Works a treat? !
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Scott....all that makes sense and helps me a lot. I understand how the second train works as long as it is moving in the same direction following the first train. How about if the two trains are moving in opposite directions at the same time. Example....you have 10 locations with one train starting at one end and the other starting at the other end at the same time. Both will visit each location but in opposite order. Does that make a mess of the picks and drops? How does the train build handle that since the cars at a location toward the tail end of a route may change vs what the build was expecting.
Even more things to consider...but I am learning.
Paul D
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Re: Initial setting of sensors in Layout Editor
There is a script called SetAllUnknownSensorsToInactive that is part of JMRI.? I use it for my testing.? You can have it run at start up by defining it in the Start Up section of the Preferences.
Dale Gloer
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Raspberry Pi 3 Horse Power?
Does the RPi 3 or 3+ have enough horse power to run a large HO layout with automated trains?
Say there are two large independent loops with staging yards, one with 2-4 trains and the other with 4-6 trains. No Bidirectional trains at this time.
Also looking at LCC.
Would like to run headless with the RPi and not worry about mechanical Failures with hard drives, etc.
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Re: Initial setting of sensors in Layout Editor
You have a few options. For Internal sensors, there is an option to set them
to initialize to INACTIVE. But for 'real' sensors, the issue is getting the
status from the layout. Here it depends on the type of hardware you have.
Many systems have a way to be 'polled' which forces the hardware to tell you
the current status. Some hardware unfortunately does not have that option,
some only report when they change state. Here you could fake the initial
state, like using a route to set the status, but that is only a guess in
that case.
Now when I'm working on a simulated layout, I use scripts to set the various
systems of sensors and turnouts to INACTIVE or CLOSED as part of my startup.
Here since there is no layout, I'm doing this to make testing simpler.
-Ken Cameron, Member JMRI Dev Team
www.jmri.org
www.fingerlakeslivesteamers.org
www.cnymod.com
www.syracusemodelrr.org
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Re: Packet Delays and Timeout - SPROG3 and JMRI 4.12
Hi All,
No Sprog hardware but in an earlier message Rockpro says "Thinking all this might be endemic to some of the other warnings and things".
What warnings are these?
Is there any weird activity in the main JMRI console when this behaviour occurs?
If so, please post here, would make it much easier for people to track down issues,
Steve.
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Re: Initial setting of sensors in Layout Editor
Hi Paul, create a new route,
PanelPro > Tools > Tables > Routes > Add
Select any turnouts / sensors you'd like setting and their states and save the route.
then go to?
PanelPro > Edit > Preferences > Startup > Add > Route > Select Route to activate on startup,
Steve.
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Re: Packet Delays and Timeout - SPROG3 and JMRI 4.12
Same here.?? Pi-Sprog (just got it the other day).??? Using Steve Todd's image on a Raspberry 3 B+.?? Everything works great except track power goes off automatically goes off randomly for no apparent reason, especially when programming locos.?? Have to check the Power Control applet all the time to ensure track power is really on or not.
More of an annoyance than anything else.?? Happy with the purchase and glad that I don't need to mess with service mode programming using the Digitrax DCC system ayout any longer.??
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Initial setting of sensors in Layout Editor
At start up sensors are set to condition "Unknown".
Is it possible to set them to "Inactive" at start up?
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Re: Defining a Departure Track
Hi Jon,?
Thanks very much.? I've no idea how I missed that.??
Chris
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Re: Panel Pro - looking for up to date Tutorial for CPE
Dick Thanks you for the EXCELLENT reply dated Dec 2nd it has opened my eyes to the differences in the different JMRI design systems. ?I agree with Alan B Pearce¡¯s comments ¡° it should be in FAQ¡± ? As a newby JMRI bless it is akin to drinking from a full bore fire hydrant !?
To your note it is apparent that I should be using (CPE ). Control Panel Editor? My layout is quite small and caters around an interlocking controlled by a CTC machine. ?there are several back to back crossovers and a flat crossing with 4 90 degree diamonds, many of the signals are eye candy with of stage virtuals. I have no room for ABS or long stretches of track.
Signal Masts are obviously the way to go ( thanks again for the explanation )
What I need now more than anything is a JMRI tutorial covering ?CPE & SML ?
BTW ?I have some of your SM LEDs ?( RR-CirKits ) the Colors are excellent? Many thanks? John Pearson?
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Show quoted text
On 3 Dec 2018, at 11:55, Alan B. Pearce < alan.b.pearce@...> wrote:
This needs to be in an FAQ somewhere. Thanks to Dick for a clear definition of the differences.
?
?
John,
I'll make some (many) comments based on my personal opinions.
a) Layout editor (LE) is a vector view of your layout. I.e. the toe bone connects to the foot bone, the foot bone, connects to the ankle bone, .... It is designed to document
and edit the connectedness of the layout. It only allow for one definition of each chunk of the layout. (vector) As soon as you have two turnouts that operate as one (e.g. crossover) or two detectors that operate as one you need to fight the system to figure
out how to defeat its basic nature. (typically by making an internal shadow to define the duplicate item) It was never designed to make a CTC panel drawing in the first place. Doing so is sort of like trying to use a CAD program to paint a landscape.
b) The Control Panel Editor (CPE) is designed to create a pictorial CTC machine (Control Panel) view of your layout. It consists of various icons and images that allow you
to recreate either a classic or modern CTC panel with surprising fidelity. It neither knows nor cares how one image or icon connects to another. The disadvantage of that of course is that you need to manual define the items and how they fit together or what
they control. The advantage of that is that it will not try to force you into its own way of doing things.
c) The Panel Editor (PE) is the original JMRI panel editor which has been superseded by the Control Panel Editor which has many new features and ease of use advantages over
the original. PE should have been depreciated years ago, but JMRI seldom does that for anything.
d) Signal heads refers to the class of hardware that can only control a signal one set of lights at a time. Typically it controls R, Y, and G lamps.
e) Signal Masts refers to an entire signal, be it one head or many heads, 3 lights per head or 7, etc. Typically it operates by sending aspect messages, not individual light
commands. However if your hardware doesn't understand aspects, then JMRI can create signal aspects out of multiple heads.
f) SSL stands for Simple Signal Logic. Think 'Simple' as in 'Simple minded', not simple as in 'Easy'. It does basic ABS on single track fairly well. However as soon as you
add a crossover or anything more complex you need to cross your eyes and stand on one leg to figure out how to make it work correctly. (mostly done by adding invisible signals and calling them 'distant')
g) SML Signal Mast Logic. IMHO This is the way signal logic should always be done. It treats signaling as aspects (per the prototype). It calculates aspects as they relate
to pairs of signals, i.e. the signal you are facing paired with the next signal along the path you will be taking. It has built in rules for a growing number of prototype railroads. This saves you a lot of research into how signaling should be done on your
railroad. It takes the most complex trackage in its stride. For each signal pair you simply list the correct turnout positions along that route and list all the blocks between this signal and the next.
h) NEVER mix SSL and SML unless you enjoy cat fights and detective mysteries. They do not play at all nicely with one another and you will be left wondering just why in the
world your signals behave the way they do.
i) Crossovers in CTC territory are two blocks. When calculating any block requirements always think about how many different trains can occupy any given area at the same time.
That is the number of block detectors required. For single track it is one, unless the track is long, then it may be several so one train can follow another. For a single turnout it is one. For a crossover it is two, one on each side if they are passing. For
a yard ladder it is ........ one. (unless you can switch two parts of the ladder at the same time somehow) Of course a yard ladder is not usually signaled, but it makes a nice example. <G>
Dick :)
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Hi Paul,
Fundamentally JMRI is setup to move a railcar once per session.??A person would?Build all the Trains at once then print out the Manifests and Switchlists for the Trains and Locations (the ones that have a Local Switch crew).? At the end of the session they would then Terminate all trains.? The program is then ready to start over again for the next session.?
You can move a car more than once during a session and some people do this by Building and Terminating trains in sequence as the session progresses (similar to what you are doing).? The "problem" they run into is that?1 person?is stuck at the computer doing this instead of having a throttle in hand running trains. I?achieve this a little differently.
For a little more insight into how I Build, Print,?and Terminate trains in JMRI_OPS to move a car multiple time during a session read through post #146888 and its associated messages.
Even more things to consider!
-Scott-
(aardtechus)
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Hi Paul,
Sorry for talking so long to reply.? Sometimes work gets in the way of trains? :)
Looks like you took care of #1.
For #2 - yes, if you want the?next train to pick up the cars the previous train left.? Now if you don't, or maybe you have more Spurs at City-C than Train-B can handle then you can run a second train (Train-E) without terminating Train-B.?The program will just pick the cars not already assigned to Train-B and assign them to Train-E.? To do this, Build both trains at the same time, ?then?print?the Switchlist for City-C.? On the Switchlist?there will be?2 sets of cars to be picked up/dropped off;?1 set?for Train-B and 1 set for Train-E.
For #3 the Switch crew doesn't have to be "just in time".? When you print off the Manifest for Train-B and the Switchlist for City-C, you hand out the paper work. to the respective crews at the same time. The City-C switch crew just needs to have the pickups ready for Train-B by the time it arrives at City-C.? In Route-B for Train-B you will notice there is a "Time" column for each location.? If you put a "Departure Time" (look at lower right under Display)? for City-C in that column then that time will also show up on the Switchlist when printed.? The City-C switch crew will then know what time Train-B will be at City-C and will need?to have the cars ready for pickup by that time.? This part of JMRI_Ops works with the Timetable for your railroad.
More things to try
-Scott
(aardtechus)
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Re: Unable to launch JMRI version 4.12
Dave
Thanks - that fixed the problem.
Regards
Roger
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Show quoted text
On 04/12/18 4:59 AM, Dave Sand wrote: Roger,
It is possible that the JMRI installer did not remove old versions of some components.
Try doing a clean install: Use the Windows Control Panel to remove any JMRI versions. Manually check C:\Program Files and C:\Program Files (x86) for residual JMRI directories and delete them. Your data is at C:\Users\<username>\JMRI. It will not be affected. A good backup is always recommended.
Dave Sand
On Dec 3, 2018, at 5:22 AM, rlloyd1941@... wrote:
I am unable to launch this latest version of JMRI Decoder Pro.
I downloaded the latest version and it seems to install OK. I have also installed the latest version of Java. I am running Windows 10 on a 64 bit system.
When I launch Decoder pro, I get the following error response.
"Unrecoverable error encountered.
This application will quit.
java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: javax.help.SwingHelpUtilities.setContentViewerUI(Ljava/lang/String:v
at apps.jui3.Apps3.initialiazerHelpSytem(Apps3.java:141
at apps.jui3.Apps3.<init>(Apps3.java98)
at apps.jui3.dp3.DecoderPro3.<init>(DecoderPro3.java:27)
at apps.jui3.dp3.DecoderPro3.main(DecoderPro3.java:96)"
So this seems like a Java problem. I had previously installed Decoder Pro version 4.6 and this worked OK. Can anyone help?
Roger Lloyd
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Re: infinite loop with logix
For what it might be worth, a trick that I have used is to insert a print command into a questionable Logix item. One example snippet, copied from the "Browse" feature of the Logix Table window, looks like:
INITIALIZE_COLFAX_IHC1 Startup Colfax Signal Heads
[x] R1 IF NOT Sensor "Init all Colfax Signal Heads" state is "Sensor Active"
THEN
On Change, Execute Jython Command Jython Command print "Startup Colfax Now".
On Change To True, Run Script from file, preference:jython\SignalHeadFromSensors.py.
...
Will print Into the "Script Output" window a message unique to that event. In this case, the relevant result looks like:
>>> print "Startup Colfax Now"
Startup Colfax Now
Please be advised that it has been a long time since I used this trick and a lot of cobwebs needed to be scraped off to recover the above example. In some cases the instructions to Execute Jython Command will cause the print, but I have not been able to figure out why some do not. It is not my intent to change the topic of this thread. A workaround was devised. The ambiguity has long since been forgotten.
Cliff in Baja SoCal
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Re: How to define a signal system in adding signal masts
Thanks Dave, I get it now.
Clay
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Re: How to define a signal system in adding signal masts
Clay,
The JMRI help system includes summaries of the signal systems. For Basic:
The generated SML results in ABS signaling. APB signaling can be implemented by adding Logix controlled direction (internal) sensors to the SML.
Dave Sand
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On Dec 3, 2018, at 4:24 PM, Clay <claysmith44@...> wrote:
I model the L&N circa 1974, however when I look at all of the signal definitions there isn't one that I recognize for the L&N so I picked Basic Model Signals.
From them I'm not sure to choose in the next two windows. In mask type I think the chooses were single search light low signal, single search light high signal, double search light low signal, and double search light high signal. I don't know the differences here. I'm fairly adapt at SSL, however I think SML is more like what I want based on I like to operate without a dispatcher.
Using SML, does the logic recognize the direction of travel?
I tried reading the help files, but I could not find anything that addresses the above question. If there is something that I missed, please point me in the right direction.
Thanks.
Clay Smith
Hopkinsville KY
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Re: infinite loop with logix
Balazs,
I usually resort to going to a back rev of the panel or disabling different
Logix until find it. I've never found a quick method.
-Ken Cameron, Member JMRI Dev Team
www.jmri.org
www.fingerlakeslivesteamers.org
www.cnymod.com
www.syracusemodelrr.org
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Paul Davidson
Dale Gloer
Ken Cameron
Bob Morningstar