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Locked Re: JMRI - NCE Block Detection

 

Sorry! You are going to need to explain how an AC meter and a DC meter can get the same reading. AC, sine or square wave will read zero volts with a dc meter. DC can be constant, a sine wave or pulsing, either way an AC meter will not read the same as a DC meter..

If thats no true, please explain.

Walt


Locked Re: JMRI - NCE Block Detection

Martin Ozolins
 

That would be true according to my Electronics 101 instructor. He
calculation describes the observation.



Martin Ozolins



"Fortune favors the prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur



From: jmriusers@... [mailto:jmriusers@...]
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 08:22
To: jmriusers@...
Subject: [jmriusers] Re: JMRI - NCE Block Detection





Paul:
This sis your statement that I question.
" If you measure the output voltage of a BD20 using a meter set to AC and a
meter set to DC, you should get the same voltage value if the meter does
true RMS calculations."
Walt


Locked Re: JMRI - NCE Block Detection

 

Paul:
This sis your statement that I question.
" If you measure the output voltage of a BD20 using a meter set to AC and a meter set to DC, you should get the same voltage value if the meter does true RMS calculations."
Walt


Locked Re: JMRI - NCE Block Detection

 

Walt,

On Jun 9, 2014, at 9:22 AM, "walter.stanley.thompson.3@... [jmriusers]"<jmriusers@...> wrote:
I suggest you test your theory by trying to read the track voltage. with a meter set to DC voltage I think you will get zero. An AC voltage switches the polarity back and forth so one rail is positive to the other and then negative to other . So a DC meter will see this as Zero volts.
You are correct, but I was never mentioned reading the track voltage with the meter set to DC. I was talking about reading the tack voltage with the meter set to AC.

When set to AC, a meter that does not do true RMS calculations will read the DCC track voltage as either too high or too low because of the assumptions made by the designers. As I said in my last message, DCC IS an AC wave form, but it is a bi-polar square wave, not a sine wave like wall outlets are.

Paul


Locked Re: JMRI - NCE Block Detection

 

Paul:
I suggest you test your theory by trying to read the track voltage. with a meter set to DC voltage I think you will get zero. An AC voltage switches the polarity back and forth so one rail is positive to the other and then negative to other . So a DC meter will see this as Zero volts.
Walt


Locked Re: JMRI - NCE Block Detection

 

On Jun 9, 2014, at 2:28 AM, "Martin Ozolins mdozolins@... [jmriusers]"<jmriusers@...> wrote:
a DC measurement of 9-11 VAC should calculate as RMS (Root Mean Square) of
the AC sinewave at 4-6VDC.
The problem here is that a BD20 does not produce an AC output. If you measure the output voltage of a BD20 using a meter set to AC and a meter set to DC, you should get the same voltage value if the meter does true RMS calculations. Most inexpensive meters don't do the RMS calculations.

Meters that don't do the RMS calculation make certain assumptions about the shape ( the sine wave ) and frequency ( in the US, 60Hz ) of the wall outlet, which makes them virtually useless for measuring any other type of signal in AC mode.

Incidentally, this is the same reason that most meters don't read the track voltage on a DCC system correctly. DCC is a bi-polar AC signal with a nominal period of somewhere around 8000Hz ( the true period varies based on a number of factors ). Bi-polar in this case means that the two rails switch between Vmin and Vmax instantaneously ( in other words, one rail is always Vmin and the other is always Vmax. ) The true voltage is simply the difference between Vmax and Vmin.

Paul


Locked Re: JMRI with NCE Pro Cab, but without PTB-100

 

What you describe is a "preferences" issue.

There are numerous options for the programmer windows within JMRI. It
sounds like your brother has "basic" as the chosen preference, whereas
"comprehensive" or "advanced" is what you are using. I recommend you
select "comprehensive" and use the "DP3" (otherwise known as DecoderPro3)
roster view of your locomotive fleet.


Answering your other question, no JMRI cannot detect the presence of a
PTB-100, so there is no possible mechanism where JMRI could make automatic
decisions around this.


Take care programming LokSound decoders. The code does work, but its still
"work in progress" and for those you MUST use the latest test release of
JMRI (3.7.6 at present), that contains code which fixes issues around both
the decoder (the most complex manufactured to date, by a considerable
margin) AND issues around the NCE Command Station and its programming
abilities. Using an older version, even the production 3.6 release, is NOT
going to work reliably.
For a beginner, I recommend you don't start learning JMRI/DecoderPro on
LokSound locos, but learn on some others where things aren't at the edge of
software developments.



- Nigel

-----Original Message-----
From: jmriusers@... [mailto:jmriusers@...]
Sent: 09 June 2014 12:27
To: jmriusers@...
Subject: [jmriusers] JMRI with NCE Pro Cab, but without PTB-100

I have just driven the 900 klm back from Narrandera (NSW, Australia) to
visit
my brother. He has a NCE Procab layout which I set him up with last year.
I've
just spent 3 days there working on his layout.


This year I went there armed with a small laptop computer, with the
object
being to set him up with Decoderpro. I had pre-loaded the computer with
the JMRI program and had connected it to my own NCE Procab layout, and
tested the Decoderpro by starting a roster by adding 2 of my own
locos.....all
went well.


I should note that I am not all that good with computers, but my brother
is
100 times worse......he wouldn't even know how to turn a computer on!!!


Anyway, when I connected the little laptop to his Command Station and
fired it up, I managed to get them to "talk" to each other okay. However,
when trying to add some of his Union Pacific locos to the roster so I
could
make some alterations to CVs and to perform some speed matching etc, I
found that there were only 2 panels coming up..."Roster Entry" and
"Basic".
Even the locos of my own which I had added to his computer here at home
(and had all the usual tabs available such as Speed Table, CVs Lighting,
Sound,
Advanced, Equaliser etc) would not show up on the computer screen, except
for those 2 basic tabs.


I am wondering if this was caused by the fact that whilst my system is
equipped with a PTB-100, my brother's layout doesn't have one fitted? Does
Decoderpro "know" that there isn't one provided between the Command
Station and the computer and limits the available tabs accordingly?


The locos I tried to program for him included a Loksound-equipped Big Boy
(Trix), a Genesis Challenger (factory-fitted Tsunami sound decoder) and an
Altas 4 axle diesel switcher (factory fitted decoder, but not sure if it
has
sound?).


I am loathe to spend any more money on DCC side of my brother's layout,
given his total lack of ability to understand what it's all about....but I
also want
him to be able to get the best out of his layout....especially as far as
speed
matching etc.


Anyway, I'm guessing that the reason I wasn't getting the full suite of
tabs at
the top of the screen was the lack of a PTB-100.


Regards,


Bill Roach,
Kadina, Australia






------------------------------------
Posted by: broa7042@...
------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links



Locked Re: JMRI with NCE Pro Cab, but without PTB-100

 

My comments in-line;
--
Dave in Australia (also 900km from Narrandera, but in the opposite direction)

On 09/06/2014, at 9:26 PM, "broa7042@... [jmriusers]" <jmriusers@...> wrote:

Anyway, when I connected the little laptop to his Command Station and fired it up, I managed to get them to "talk" to each other okay. However, when trying to add some of his Union Pacific locos to the roster so I could make some alterations to CVs and to perform some speed matching etc, I found that there were only 2 panels coming up..."Roster Entry" and "Basic". Even the locos of my own which I had added to his computer here at home (and had all the usual tabs available such as Speed Table, CVs Lighting, Sound, Advanced, Equaliser etc) would not show up on the computer screen, except for those 2 basic tabs.
Preferences->Roster->Format->Advanced will solve that. His JMRI probably had "Basic".

I am wondering if this was caused by the fact that whilst my system is equipped with a PTB-100, my brother's layout doesn't have one fitted? Does Decoderpro "know" that there isn't one provided between the Command Station and the computer and limits the available tabs accordingly?
No, but he will not be able to read his sound locos (Loksound and Tsunami) without it. He can write but not read. Inadvisable except for the most basic operations (set address), particularly with a decoder as complex as a LokSound, where there are hundreds of possible default value sets (depending on sound project loaded) and JMRI cannot know about them at this stage. Maybe one day, but this will require a feed from ESU, among other things...

Dave


Locked Re: JMRI with NCE Pro Cab, but without PTB-100

 

Bill,



You said:



"I am wondering if this was caused by the fact that whilst my system is
equipped with a PTB-100, my brother's layout doesn't have one fitted? Does
Decoderpro "know" that there isn't one provided between the Command Station
and the computer and limits the available tabs accordingly? "



But the PTB-100 goes between the command station and the programming track.
So I suspect you just typed bad after your long trip.



Anyway an older PowerPro system (9 pin serial port) generally needs a
PTB-100 to boost the power on the programming track for modern sound locos.
And the ones you mentioned are clearly those modern types.



Did you have any 'dumb' decoder locos available to test things with?? To
test that everything is setup right using something with a simple NCE or
Digitrax decoder (couple of functions for lights and the motor only) is the
best step. Trying those fancy ones have many other issues, like how new of a
copy of JMRI were you using?? If not 3.7.5, the LokSound would not work
right due to programming changes. Even the Atlas is suspect unless we knew
the decoder model.



Most of what you are saying about the tabs makes me suspect you were not
successful in reading the id of the decoder and it was not picking the right
mapping for the decoder. Again if those decoders needed the PTB-100 to work
right, you would not have read the right id correctly.



So yes he likely needs the PTB-100 (or a modification inside the PowerPro
command station) for it to work right with these fancy decoders.



-Ken Cameron, Member JMRI Dev Team

www.jmri.org

www.fingerlakeslivesteamers.org

www.cnymod.com

www.syracusemodelrr.org


Locked JMRI with NCE Pro Cab, but without PTB-100

 

I have just driven the 900 klm back from Narrandera (NSW, Australia) to visit my brother. He has a NCE Procab layout which I set him up with last year. I've just spent 3 days there working on his layout.


This year I went there armed with a small laptop computer, with the object being to set him up with Decoderpro. I had pre-loaded the computer with the JMRI program and had connected it to my own NCE Procab layout, and tested the Decoderpro by starting a roster by adding 2 of my own locos.....all went well.


I should note that I am not all that good with computers, but my brother is 100 times worse......he wouldn't even know how to turn a computer on!!!


Anyway, when I connected the little laptop to his Command Station and fired it up, I managed to get them to "talk" to each other okay. However, when trying to add some of his Union Pacific locos to the roster so I could make some alterations to CVs and to perform some speed matching etc, I found that there were only 2 panels coming up..."Roster Entry" and "Basic". Even the locos of my own which I had added to his computer here at home (and had all the usual tabs available such as Speed Table, CVs Lighting, Sound, Advanced, Equaliser etc) would not show up on the computer screen, except for those 2 basic tabs.


I am wondering if this was caused by the fact that whilst my system is equipped with a PTB-100, my brother's layout doesn't have one fitted? Does Decoderpro "know" that there isn't one provided between the Command Station and the computer and limits the available tabs accordingly?


The locos I tried to program for him included a Loksound-equipped Big Boy (Trix), a Genesis Challenger (factory-fitted Tsunami sound decoder) and an Altas 4 axle diesel switcher (factory fitted decoder, but not sure if it has sound?).


I am loathe to spend any more money on DCC side of my brother's layout, given his total lack of ability to understand what it's all about....but I also want him to be able to get the best out of his layout....especially as far as speed matching etc.


Anyway, I'm guessing that the reason I wasn't getting the full suite of tabs at the top of the screen was the lack of a PTB-100.


Regards,


Bill Roach,
Kadina, Australia


Locked Re: JMRI - NCE Block Detection

 

Glad to be able to solve your problem. An easy mistake to make, given the BD20 manual does not have a diagram.
--
Dave in Australia

On 09/06/2014, at 5:45 PM, "Martin Ozolins mdozolins@... [jmriusers]"<jmriusers@...> wrote:

Solution found. I put only one leg of he Feed through the coil now the
light stays on.

Martin Ozolins

"Fortune favors the prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur

From: jmriusers@... [mailto:jmriusers@...]
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 00:22
To: jmriusers@...
Subject: Re: [jmriusers] Re: JMRI - NCE Block Detection
...
The BD20s seem to be acting more like a pulse transformer than a current
transformer.

One really wild theory is that Martin has threaded both feeders for a
section through the BD20. That would account for the strange behaviour as
there would likely be a current imbalance as the loco transitioned the gaps.
The imbalance would disappear while the loco is entirely in the section and
reappear briefly as it transitioned the exit gap.
...
--
Dave in Australia


Locked Re: JMRI - NCE Block Detection

Martin Ozolins
 

Solution found. I put only one leg of he Feed through the coil now the
light stays on.



Martin Ozolins



"Fortune favors the prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur



From: jmriusers@... [mailto:jmriusers@...]
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 00:22
To: jmriusers@...
Subject: Re: [jmriusers] Re: JMRI - NCE Block Detection





The AIU input circuit on page 3 of the manual indicates the inputs are
pulled up to 5V. The inputs are connected to a 74HC14 and a microprocessor,
both of which have a 5V limit.

(The AC readings are irrelevant as this is a DC circuit.)

The DC transition is correct. What is not correct is that the level is not
maintained. Since two BD20s returned the same symptom, one has to assume a
wiring problem.

The BD20s seem to be acting more like a pulse transformer than a current
transformer.

One really wild theory is that Martin has threaded both feeders for a
section through the BD20. That would account for the strange behaviour as
there would likely be a current imbalance as the loco transitioned the gaps.
The imbalance would disappear while the loco is entirely in the section and
reappear briefly as it transitioned the exit gap.

I have asked Martin to clarify this very possibility, but so far no
response. The AIU manual does not show this distinction, just a text
reference to "one wire". Easy to miss if you are not an electrical expert.
--
Dave in Australia

On 09/06/2014, at 5:04 PM, "walshrd@... [jmriusers]
<mailto:walshrd@...%20[jmriusers]> " <jmriusers@...> wrote:

Im wondering about the measurement of "DC = 4V nominal." That "high"
voltage comes from
the cab bus and that voltage ought to be around 12 VDC (or a bit higher).

David Richardson
Tucson

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Ozolins mdozolins@... [jmriusers]
<jmriusers@...>
To: jmriusers <jmriusers@...>
Sent: Sun, Jun 8, 2014 9:47 pm
Subject: RE: [jmriusers] Re: JMRI - NCE Block Detection

Ken

I measured AC voltage at the output of the DC20, 9V unoccupied, drops to 9
Volt triggerd, then Immediately returns to 9V.

DC is about 4V nominal, drops to .3 volts, then back to 4v immediately.

Confirmed from two differend BD20s.


Locked Re: JMRI - NCE Block Detection

Martin Ozolins
 

Or the BD 20's/AIU are defective. NCE had to send me three of the powercab
panels before I got one that was actually complete and would work. The
defective ones are making good cab bus interface extenders as long as they
don't get the 19v needed to run powercab.



Martin Ozolins



From: jmriusers@... [mailto:jmriusers@...]
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 00:22
To: jmriusers@...
Subject: Re: [jmriusers] Re: JMRI - NCE Block Detection





The AIU input circuit on page 3 of the manual indicates the inputs are
pulled up to 5V. The inputs are connected to a 74HC14 and a microprocessor,
both of which have a 5V limit.

(The AC readings are irrelevant as this is a DC circuit.)

The DC transition is correct. What is not correct is that the level is not
maintained. Since two BD20s returned the same symptom, one has to assume a
wiring problem.

The BD20s seem to be acting more like a pulse transformer than a current
transformer.

One really wild theory is that Martin has threaded both feeders for a
section through the BD20. That would account for the strange behaviour as
there would likely be a current imbalance as the loco transitioned the gaps.
The imbalance would disappear while the loco is entirely in the section and
reappear briefly as it transitioned the exit gap.

I have asked Martin to clarify this very possibility, but so far no
response. The AIU manual does not show this distinction, just a text
reference to "one wire". Easy to miss if you are not an electrical expert.
--
Dave in Australia

On 09/06/2014, at 5:04 PM, "walshrd@... [jmriusers]
<mailto:walshrd@...%20[jmriusers]> " <jmriusers@...> wrote:

Im wondering about the measurement of "DC = 4V nominal." That "high"
voltage comes from
the cab bus and that voltage ought to be around 12 VDC (or a bit higher).

David Richardson
Tucson

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Ozolins mdozolins@... [jmriusers]
<jmriusers@...>
To: jmriusers <jmriusers@...>
Sent: Sun, Jun 8, 2014 9:47 pm
Subject: RE: [jmriusers] Re: JMRI - NCE Block Detection

Ken

I measured AC voltage at the output of the DC20, 9V unoccupied, drops to 9
Volt triggerd, then Immediately returns to 9V.

DC is about 4V nominal, drops to .3 volts, then back to 4v immediately.

Confirmed from two differend BD20s.


Locked Re: JMRI - NCE Block Detection

Martin Ozolins
 

Voltages were measured at the output of the BD20 while connected to the AIU
and while disconnected.



Track Voltage is a comfortable 17VAC.



The BD20 isn't connected to the CabBus which should be 12V



I have a 5A booster on the layout.



a DC measurement of 9-11 VAC should calculate as RMS (Root Mean Square) of
the AC sinewave at 4-6VDC.







Martin Ozolins

<mailto:mdozolins@...> mdozolins@...

(760)405 4812



"Fortune favors the prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur



From: jmriusers@... [mailto:jmriusers@...]
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 00:05
To: jmriusers@...
Subject: Re: [jmriusers] Re: JMRI - NCE Block Detection





This appears to be an answer that I wanted. If the block is solely powered
by a feeder
thru the BD20, then the BD20 will activate (DC volts = low) as long as your
loco, lighted
cars etc are in the block. If the BD20 does not behave in this way, you have
a wiring
problem. Some other connection is feeding the block (or the BD20 isnt
connected properly).
Could you have additional connections thru any switches (turnouts) in the
block depending
on their point positions? Power routing switches could feed the block as
well.

Im wondering about the measurement of "DC = 4V nominal." That "high" voltage
comes from
the cab bus and that voltage ought to be around 12 VDC (or a bit higher).

David Richardson
Tucson

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Ozolins mdozolins@... [jmriusers]
<jmriusers@...>
To: jmriusers <jmriusers@...>
Sent: Sun, Jun 8, 2014 9:47 pm
Subject: RE: [jmriusers] Re: JMRI - NCE Block Detection

Ken

I measured AC voltage at the output of the DC20, 9V unoccupied, drops to 9
Volt triggerd, then Immediately returns to 9V.

DC is about 4V nominal, drops to .3 volts, then back to 4v immediately.

Confirmed from two differend BD20s.

Martin Ozolins


Locked Re: JMRI - NCE Block Detection

 

The AIU input circuit on page 3 of the manual indicates the inputs are pulled up to 5V. The inputs are connected to a 74HC14 and a microprocessor, both of which have a 5V limit.

(The AC readings are irrelevant as this is a DC circuit.)

The DC transition is correct. What is not correct is that the level is not maintained. Since two BD20s returned the same symptom, one has to assume a wiring problem.

The BD20s seem to be acting more like a pulse transformer than a current transformer.

One really wild theory is that Martin has threaded both feeders for a section through the BD20. That would account for the strange behaviour as there would likely be a current imbalance as the loco transitioned the gaps. The imbalance would disappear while the loco is entirely in the section and reappear briefly as it transitioned the exit gap.

I have asked Martin to clarify this very possibility, but so far no response. The AIU manual does not show this distinction, just a text reference to "one wire". Easy to miss if you are not an electrical expert.
--
Dave in Australia

On 09/06/2014, at 5:04 PM, "walshrd@... [jmriusers]" <jmriusers@...> wrote:

Im wondering about the measurement of "DC = 4V nominal." That "high" voltage comes from
the cab bus and that voltage ought to be around 12 VDC (or a bit higher).

David Richardson
Tucson

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Ozolins mdozolins@... [jmriusers] <jmriusers@...>
To: jmriusers <jmriusers@...>
Sent: Sun, Jun 8, 2014 9:47 pm
Subject: RE: [jmriusers] Re: JMRI - NCE Block Detection

Ken

I measured AC voltage at the output of the DC20, 9V unoccupied, drops to 9
Volt triggerd, then Immediately returns to 9V.

DC is about 4V nominal, drops to .3 volts, then back to 4v immediately.

Confirmed from two differend BD20s.


Locked Re: JMRI - NCE Block Detection

Martin Ozolins
 

Sensitivity and other technical stuff:

Detector sensitivity may increased by putting more "turns" through the hole
in the current

transformer. There is a limit to the number of turns based on the output
current of the

system booster (sometomes called 'power station'). If you put too many turns
through the

hole for the capacity of the booster you may damage the detector module.
Table 1 lists

various popular booster sizes. Areas where the detector limits will be OK
have an "X" in

the table.

For example: putting 3 turns through the transformer is not allowed with a
10 Amp

booster.



From NCE's Documentation. The table is in the screen shot.



Martin Ozolins

<mailto:mdozolins@...> mdozolins@...

(760)405 4812



"Fortune favors the prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur



From: jmriusers@... [mailto:jmriusers@...]
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2014 23:47
To: jmriusers@...
Subject: Re: [jmriusers] Re: JMRI - NCE Block Detection





Nobody is trying to exercise "their superiority" here. It appears that
several very well-informed
members of this group have taken your questions seriously and are making a
good effort to
give you some help.

I asked you early on if the output of the BD20 remained activated while the
locos, cars etc
were in the detection block. I got no answer to that other than you revealed
that you dont possess
a meter to determine the answer. So, as far as I know, a hardware or a
wiring failure of some sort
is possible/likely. In addition, Im not aware that you will ever need 3
loops thru the BD20 core. Why
would such sensitivity be needed? Many users (including me) find 1 loop good
enough.

David Richardson
Tucson

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Ozolins mdozolins@... [jmriusers]
<jmriusers@...>
To: jmriusers <jmriusers@...>
Sent: Sun, Jun 8, 2014 9:39 pm
Subject: RE: [jmriusers] Re: JMRI - NCE Block Detection

If you had read my initial post instead of trying to prove your superiority
you would know the answer.

Flashes momentarily, just like the JMRI sensors that flash momentarily. As
the trains cross the block gaps.

Martin Ozolins

<mailto:mdozolins@...> mdozolins@...

(760)405 4812

"Fortune favors the prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur

From: jmriusers@... [mailto:jmriusers@...]
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2014 19:39
To: jmriusers@...
Subject: Re: [jmriusers] Re: JMRI - NCE Block Detection

You still have not answered the question! I'll ask it again:

With JMRI not running, do the indicator lights on the AIU come on and stay
on when the train enters a block section, or do they just flash as you enter
and leave?

There are only two possible answers:

1) The indicator light on the AIU comes on and stays on until the train
leaves the block section.

2) The indicator light on the AIU does not stay on all the time the train is
in the block section.

What is your answer? Is it 1) or 2)?
--
Dave in Australia

On 09/06/2014, at 12:10 PM, "Martin Ozolins mdozolins@...
[jmriusers]"<jmriusers@...> wrote:

There is no difference either way hence there results were the same.

--- Original Message ---

From: "Dave Heap dgheap@... [jmriusers]" <jmriusers@...>
Sent: June 8, 2014 6:20 PM
To: jmriusers@...
Subject: Re: [jmriusers] Re: JMRI - NCE Block Detection

We still don't know the answer to this vital question; With JMRI not
running, do the indicator lights on the AIU come on and stay on when the
train enters a block section, or do they just flash as you enter and leave?


Locked Re: JMRI - NCE Block Detection

 

This appears to be an answer that I wanted. If the block is solely powered by a feeder
thru the BD20, then the BD20 will activate (DC volts = low) as long as your loco, lighted
cars etc are in the block. If the BD20 does not behave in this way, you have a wiring
problem. Some other connection is feeding the block (or the BD20 isnt connected properly).
Could you have additional connections thru any switches (turnouts) in the block depending
on their point positions? Power routing switches could feed the block as well.


Im wondering about the measurement of "DC = 4V nominal." That "high" voltage comes from
the cab bus and that voltage ought to be around 12 VDC (or a bit higher).


David Richardson
Tucson

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Ozolins mdozolins@... [jmriusers] <jmriusers@...>
To: jmriusers <jmriusers@...>
Sent: Sun, Jun 8, 2014 9:47 pm
Subject: RE: [jmriusers] Re: JMRI - NCE Block Detection


Ken



I measured AC voltage at the output of the DC20, 9V unoccupied, drops to 9
Volt triggerd, then Immediately returns to 9V.

DC is about 4V nominal, drops to .3 volts, then back to 4v immediately.



Confirmed from two differend BD20s.



Martin Ozolins


Locked Re: JMRI - NCE Block Detection

 

Nobody is trying to exercise "their superiority" here. It appears that several very well-informed
members of this group have taken your questions seriously and are making a good effort to
give you some help.


I asked you early on if the output of the BD20 remained activated while the locos, cars etc
were in the detection block. I got no answer to that other than you revealed that you dont possess
a meter to determine the answer. So, as far as I know, a hardware or a wiring failure of some sort
is possible/likely. In addition, Im not aware that you will ever need 3 loops thru the BD20 core. Why
would such sensitivity be needed? Many users (including me) find 1 loop good enough.


David Richardson
Tucson

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Ozolins mdozolins@... [jmriusers] <jmriusers@...>
To: jmriusers <jmriusers@...>
Sent: Sun, Jun 8, 2014 9:39 pm
Subject: RE: [jmriusers] Re: JMRI - NCE Block Detection


If you had read my initial post instead of trying to prove your superiority
you would know the answer.



Flashes momentarily, just like the JMRI sensors that flash momentarily. As
the trains cross the block gaps.





Martin Ozolins

<mailto:mdozolins@...> mdozolins@...

(760)405 4812



"Fortune favors the prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur



From: jmriusers@... [mailto:jmriusers@...]
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2014 19:39
To: jmriusers@...
Subject: Re: [jmriusers] Re: JMRI - NCE Block Detection





You still have not answered the question! I'll ask it again:

With JMRI not running, do the indicator lights on the AIU come on and stay
on when the train enters a block section, or do they just flash as you enter
and leave?

There are only two possible answers:

1) The indicator light on the AIU comes on and stays on until the train
leaves the block section.

2) The indicator light on the AIU does not stay on all the time the train is
in the block section.

What is your answer? Is it 1) or 2)?
--
Dave in Australia

On 09/06/2014, at 12:10 PM, "Martin Ozolins mdozolins@...
[jmriusers]"<jmriusers@...> wrote:

There is no difference either way hence there results were the same.

--- Original Message ---

From: "Dave Heap dgheap@... [jmriusers]" <jmriusers@...>
Sent: June 8, 2014 6:20 PM
To: jmriusers@...
Subject: Re: [jmriusers] Re: JMRI - NCE Block Detection

We still don't know the answer to this vital question; With JMRI not
running, do the indicator lights on the AIU come on and stay on when the
train enters a block section, or do they just flash as you enter and leave?


Locked Re: JMRI - NCE Block Detection

Martin Ozolins
 

The answer is 1 both,2 both

To: jmriusers@...
From: jmriusers@...
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2014 14:14:10 +1000
Subject: Re: [jmriusers] Re: JMRI - NCE Block Detection


























I have just re-read your initial post and it is by no means clear that the answer is there. I have attached a copy below.



I am not trying to be superior. I am just a modeller who happens to have become a JMRI developer and a moderator of the NCE group, where you have also started a thread on this topic. I spend my hobby time helping others, but do not appreciate abuse for my trouble. I also happen to know a lot more about NCE products than you do.



I have checked both threads and people on both threads have asked the question I asked, and in no case have you given a straightforward answer.



We now know beyond doubt that the problem is a detection problem, not a JMRI problem.



I am going to ask some basic questions, some of which seem stupid or obvious. Do not take offence at them, just answer directly and truthfully, and we will get to the cause of this problem.



1) For each block, did you feed one of the feeder wires through the BD20, or both feeder wires? (Answer one or both).



2) Are both rails gapped at every section between feeders? (answer yes or no).



Once we have the answer to these two questions, we can ask further questions.
--

Dave in Australia



On 09/06/2014, at 1:39 PM, "Martin Ozolins mdozolins@... [jmriusers]"<jmriusers@...> wrote:



If you had read my initial post instead of trying to prove your superiority
you would know the answer.
Flashes momentarily, just like the JMRI sensors that flash momentarily. As
the trains cross the block gaps.


On 08/06/2014, at 9:31 AM, "Martin Ozolins mdozolins@... [jmriusers]"<jmriusers@...> wrote:



Hi All
I just spent a couple of days going through Robert Bucklew's Quaker Valley
Lines Panel Pro tutorial (Very well done) parts one and two. After sticking
to the tutorial I paused at the end of Part 2 and figured I'd repeat part 1
and part 2 on a portion of my Living Room Layout. Then I ran into a block
detection issue, the block sensors seem to flash on when a train enters and
again when it exits, but isn't persistent so I've been unable to mark the
block occupied on the panel.
My Layout is NCE SB5, via the USB Interface, My sensors are BD20's connected
to an AUI01. My firmware is of the proper version (7.3.3) and my sensors are
being read from the AUI by JMRI. The JMRI is Version 3.6-r24520 running on
Centos 6.5 and Java 1.7 (60).
The USB interface is CAB 8
The AUI interface is CAB9 (per the SB5 Documentation)
The indications are that the sensors are triggering on entry and exit of a
block, each train passage the correct block transitions are lighting up. Is
this proper behavior for these devices? If yes how do I capture the entry
and exit of a train from each block? This will necessarily need to be
direction agnostic.
I've attached the Panel XML files as a zip archive so virus scanners won't
delete the XML and will be greatful for your advice.
Thanks in advance.
Martin Ozolins

























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Locked Re: JMRI - NCE Block Detection

 

I have just re-read your initial post and it is by no means clear that the answer is there. I have attached a copy below.

I am not trying to be superior. I am just a modeller who happens to have become a JMRI developer and a moderator of the NCE group, where you have also started a thread on this topic. I spend my hobby time helping others, but do not appreciate abuse for my trouble. I also happen to know a lot more about NCE products than you do.

I have checked both threads and people on both threads have asked the question I asked, and in no case have you given a straightforward answer.

We now know beyond doubt that the problem is a detection problem, not a JMRI problem.

I am going to ask some basic questions, some of which seem stupid or obvious. Do not take offence at them, just answer directly and truthfully, and we will get to the cause of this problem.

1) For each block, did you feed one of the feeder wires through the BD20, or both feeder wires? (Answer one or both).

2) Are both rails gapped at every section between feeders? (answer yes or no).

Once we have the answer to these two questions, we can ask further questions.
--
Dave in Australia

On 09/06/2014, at 1:39 PM, "Martin Ozolins mdozolins@... [jmriusers]"<jmriusers@...> wrote:

If you had read my initial post instead of trying to prove your superiority
you would know the answer.

Flashes momentarily, just like the JMRI sensors that flash momentarily. As
the trains cross the block gaps.

On 08/06/2014, at 9:31 AM, "Martin Ozolins mdozolins@... [jmriusers]"<jmriusers@...> wrote:

Hi All

I just spent a couple of days going through Robert Bucklew's Quaker Valley
Lines Panel Pro tutorial (Very well done) parts one and two. After sticking
to the tutorial I paused at the end of Part 2 and figured I'd repeat part 1
and part 2 on a portion of my Living Room Layout. Then I ran into a block
detection issue, the block sensors seem to flash on when a train enters and
again when it exits, but isn't persistent so I've been unable to mark the
block occupied on the panel.

My Layout is NCE SB5, via the USB Interface, My sensors are BD20's connected
to an AUI01. My firmware is of the proper version (7.3.3) and my sensors are
being read from the AUI by JMRI. The JMRI is Version 3.6-r24520 running on
Centos 6.5 and Java 1.7 (60).

The USB interface is CAB 8

The AUI interface is CAB9 (per the SB5 Documentation)

The indications are that the sensors are triggering on entry and exit of a
block, each train passage the correct block transitions are lighting up. Is
this proper behavior for these devices? If yes how do I capture the entry
and exit of a train from each block? This will necessarily need to be
direction agnostic.

I've attached the Panel XML files as a zip archive so virus scanners won't
delete the XML and will be greatful for your advice.

Thanks in advance.

Martin Ozolins