But if everyone were covered under a single payer, then practices go out of business if they refuse to accept payment from single payers, correct? Or, the prices would be so low that they cannot continue to pay for their liabilities such as homes, cars and expenses. This is the part where very good doctors with lower financial expectations from places like the Philippines and India set up shop in the usa...ACA (regrettably not single payer) will probably necessitate this anyway due to high demand. They would be here now except for the arbitrarily protective visa limitations that could be liberalized, probably by executive order.

ColleaguesI think you are dreaming if you think that ACA or a single payer will be the answer to the healthcare. The first thing is Medicare and Medicaid is a single payer for many of us who have retired.? It is reasonably price. The issue is not the cost, but finding a doctor who accepts Medicare / Medicaid Patients. The law cannot force a doctor to work at a specified price. Otherwise it is slavery. So he can legally refuse to accept patients as long as he does not discriminate. A doctor determines what he is willing to accept in payment for his service. There are not enough doctors to treat everyone.Today, a doctor now asks "Do you have insurance and with whom?" before he is willing to even accept you as a patient. Some will advise you upfront that they expect payment when services are render and they post such a sign in their office. There are many who will pay upfront to be treated by the doctor of their choice and who has an excellent reputation.Many doctors, in the New York City and Westchester County are not accepting Medicare / Medicaid patients.? The reason is that the government reimbursement is to low. If a doctor accepts a Medicare patient, he must also take Medicaid patients.? A medicaid patient pays nothing, not even the 20% a Medicare patient pays. A doctor receives about 65% of the reimbursement he gets for treating Medicare patients - so he refuses to treat either. The reimbursement the doctor receives from the government does not cover his costs especially his malpractice insurance so why accept Medicare or Medicaid patients.In Westchester, a nearby hospital closed because a majority of their patients where under Medicaid and they went bankrupt. There also have been some hospital closing in New York City and the wait in emergency room has increase in the other hospitals.Even if you have private or company insurance, like my daughter who has a healthcare insurance policy from her company listed on the New York Stock Exchange, was told by her doctor, he does not accept any insurance.? She had to pay his fees with a credit card and when the doctor received payment from the insurance company (three months later), he gave her the amount he received. Her out of pocket costs was 40% of the fee.? This is not the case with the Hospital but with the doctors.As you can see, it does not matter what insurance you have, if no doctor, other than a hospital, is willing to accept it, what good is insurance. So dream on about ACA and a single payer. You may have the reasonably priced insurance you want but it won't by you medical services if a doctor does not accept it.From a retiree who is under Medicare----- Original Message -----From: Danny Baptista Date: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 12:40 pmSubject: Re: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive Consequences From ObamacareTo: ibmpensionissues@...














?












Rick, thank you. I've also been fed up
with the misinformed reactionary rhetoric from this site that I
find in my inbox often these days. An FYI to you all: I'm looking
forward to increased access to health care that is not quite as
expensive and not quite as much a rip-off, and I welcome the ACA
as an incremental and progressive step towards single payer.


?


Sorry. Not me.

However, you did prove my point.

--- In ibmpensionissues@...,
buckwildbeemer <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> OK, now tell us what ya did at IBM!
>
>
>
> --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
"Rick b Cool" <rickboehme@> wrote:
> >
> > Perhaps this thread can get back on topic
without the radical reactionary rhetoric firmly grounded
in delusions.
> >
> > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
"Rick b Cool" <rickboehme@> wrote:
> > >
> > > WOW.
> > >
> > > This forum has turned into just another
radical reactionary shithole. Completely off topic. Yet
another internet place for delusions, distortions, and
lies.
> > >
> > > Fact: The full text of the ACA was
available almost the whole time. Obviously less the
changes currently being proposed and discussed.
> > >
> > > Fact: The people who do this kind of
whining are exclusively completely self centered
anti-social morons who don't consider all the benefits
they receive at others expense, or the great benefits of
have a great society that supports all the people, grows
the economy, and increases the standard of living. They
simply dream of how good it would be if they retained
everything they have and get and somehow didn't have to
pay for any of it. All the advances of society and
technology, the vast bulk of which they had nothing to do
with. I am quite sure they use words like socialist and
communist and have no idea what either term actually
means. They certainly have no idea what the term
capitalist actually means now what Adam Smith was trying
to achieve.
> > >
> > > All they do is whine and hope that someone
will give them everything they desire while not giving to
others they feel are undeserving. All while deceiving
themselves that they are independent individuals
supporting themselves outside all that exists and all that
has gone before.
> > >
> > > Back to the good old days when only white
male protestants who own landed estates have any rights or
benefits of the wealth society and all the people create.
> > >
> > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
pawnedmyrolex <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Reminds me of the new Lib movie
remake: "Dependence Day"
> > > >
> > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
"zimowski@" <zimowski@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Those who re-elected Obama now
need to eat his dog food.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
spitzerisnoweiner <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Soooo glad I never joined a
union...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is a bad
re-distribution of wealth for sure.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
























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There was something in the news today about a Senate hearing on drug prices. How generic manufacturers are forbidden to use cheaper formulations and that in the USA, we pay the difference to the tune of many billions of dollars in extra medical expenses. One thing that is also true is that many of the generic manufacturers are also offshore so the drug companies increased their profits through the elimination of American jobs already. That not being nearly enough, they force generic manufacturers to stick to more expensive formulations. American corporations robbing the middle-class of their jobs while sticking them with higher medical costs.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., "Rick b Cool" <rickb_cool@> wrote:

Very good. Thanks for the analysis. However, none of what you said has anything at all to do with ACA. Yes, some doctors refuse Medicare. Some refuse all insurance. They have done so for an extremely long time. Some demand cash payment in advance and them reimburse when insurance pays them. They have done so for a very long time.

No ACA is far, far from a perfect plan. It is something which was never wanted by those who believe in universal health care. It was a proposal that was proposed by conservative Republicans and only abandoned as a political maneuver against a President they wanted to fail at any cost to the people of the United States. The one strategy which the modern Republican leadership has carries out extremely consistently at great cost to the American people.

Also, from a purely social perspective. It clearly looks as if you said that we need to have access to good health care severely limited to more wealthy individuals because their is a shortage of doctors. People do reveal their self centered nature while entirely ignoring the fact that most doctors are educated at the expense of the people of the United States through grants, subsidies, and delayed low interest loans. No one pays the full free market capitalist price of their healthcare. Though, one must admit that in some arenas, such a patent drugs, they do pay monopolistic prices.

Healthcare in this country is a highly complex system with many interdependencies. The idiotic perspective is that some of us deserve good healthcare more than others of us.

Now as I said previously. The real issue on this forum is getting back on topic. We don't need the political bullshit of the loud mouthed Obama haters who will say anything true or false or irrelevant.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., KenSP@ wrote:

ColleaguesI think you are dreaming if you think that ACA or a single payer will be the answer to the healthcare. The first thing is Medicare and Medicaid is a single payer for many of us who have retired.? It is reasonably price. The issue is not the cost, but finding a doctor who accepts Medicare / Medicaid Patients. The law cannot force a doctor to work at a specified price. Otherwise it is slavery. So he can legally refuse to accept patients as long as he does not discriminate. A doctor determines what he is willing to accept in payment for his service. There are not enough doctors to treat everyone.Today, a doctor now asks "Do you have insurance and with whom?" before he is willing to even accept you as a patient. Some will advise you upfront that they expect payment when services are render and they post such a sign in their office. There are many who will pay upfront to be treated by the doctor of their choice and who has an excellent reputation.Many doctors, in the New York City and Westchester County are not accepting Medicare / Medicaid patients.? The reason is that the government reimbursement is to low. If a doctor accepts a Medicare patient, he must also take Medicaid patients.? A medicaid patient pays nothing, not even the 20% a Medicare patient pays. A doctor receives about 65% of the reimbursement he gets for treating Medicare patients - so he refuses to treat either. The reimbursement the doctor receives from the government does not cover his costs especially his malpractice insurance so why accept Medicare or Medicaid patients.In Westchester, a nearby hospital closed because a majority of their patients where under Medicaid and they went bankrupt. There also have been some hospital closing in New York City and the wait in emergency room has increase in the other hospitals.Even if you have private or company insurance, like my daughter who has a healthcare insurance policy from her company listed on the New York Stock Exchange, was told by her doctor, he does not accept any insurance.? She had to pay his fees with a credit card and when the doctor received payment from the insurance company (three months later), he gave her the amount he received. Her out of pocket costs was 40% of the fee.? This is not the case with the Hospital but with the doctors.As you can see, it does not matter what insurance you have, if no doctor, other than a hospital, is willing to accept it, what good is insurance. So dream on about ACA and a single payer. You may have the reasonably priced insurance you want but it won't by you medical services if a doctor does not accept it.From a retiree who is under Medicare----- Original Message -----From: Danny Baptista Date: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 12:40 pmSubject: Re: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive Consequences From ObamacareTo: ibmpensionissues@...














?












Rick, thank you. I've also been fed up
with the misinformed reactionary rhetoric from this site that I
find in my inbox often these days. An FYI to you all: I'm looking
forward to increased access to health care that is not quite as
expensive and not quite as much a rip-off, and I welcome the ACA
as an incremental and progressive step towards single payer.


?


Sorry. Not me.

However, you did prove my point.

--- In ibmpensionissues@...,
buckwildbeemer <no_reply@> wrote:
>
> OK, now tell us what ya did at IBM!
>
>
>
> --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
"Rick b Cool" <rickboehme@> wrote:
> >
> > Perhaps this thread can get back on topic
without the radical reactionary rhetoric firmly grounded
in delusions.
> >
> > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
"Rick b Cool" <rickboehme@> wrote:
> > >
> > > WOW.
> > >
> > > This forum has turned into just another
radical reactionary shithole. Completely off topic. Yet
another internet place for delusions, distortions, and
lies.
> > >
> > > Fact: The full text of the ACA was
available almost the whole time. Obviously less the
changes currently being proposed and discussed.
> > >
> > > Fact: The people who do this kind of
whining are exclusively completely self centered
anti-social morons who don't consider all the benefits
they receive at others expense, or the great benefits of
have a great society that supports all the people, grows
the economy, and increases the standard of living. They
simply dream of how good it would be if they retained
everything they have and get and somehow didn't have to
pay for any of it. All the advances of society and
technology, the vast bulk of which they had nothing to do
with. I am quite sure they use words like socialist and
communist and have no idea what either term actually
means. They certainly have no idea what the term
capitalist actually means now what Adam Smith was trying
to achieve.
> > >
> > > All they do is whine and hope that someone
will give them everything they desire while not giving to
others they feel are undeserving. All while deceiving
themselves that they are independent individuals
supporting themselves outside all that exists and all that
has gone before.
> > >
> > > Back to the good old days when only white
male protestants who own landed estates have any rights or
benefits of the wealth society and all the people create.
> > >
> > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
pawnedmyrolex <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Reminds me of the new Lib movie
remake: "Dependence Day"
> > > >
> > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
"zimowski@" <zimowski@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Those who re-elected Obama now
need to eat his dog food.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
spitzerisnoweiner <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Soooo glad I never joined a
union...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is a bad
re-distribution of wealth for sure.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
























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Very good. Thanks for the analysis. However, none of what you said has anything at all to do with ACA. Yes, some doctors refuse Medicare. Some refuse all insurance. They have done so for an extremely long time. Some demand cash payment in advance and them reimburse when insurance pays them. They have done so for a very long time.

No ACA is far, far from a perfect plan. It is something which was never wanted by those who believe in universal health care. It was a proposal that was proposed by conservative Republicans and only abandoned as a political maneuver against a President they wanted to fail at any cost to the people of the United States. The one strategy which the modern Republican leadership has carries out extremely consistently at great cost to the American people.

Also, from a purely social perspective. It clearly looks as if you said that we need to have access to good health care severely limited to more wealthy individuals because their is a shortage of doctors. People do reveal their self centered nature while entirely ignoring the fact that most doctors are educated at the expense of the people of the United States through grants, subsidies, and delayed low interest loans. No one pays the full free market capitalist price of their healthcare. Though, one must admit that in some arenas, such a patent drugs, they do pay monopolistic prices.

Healthcare in this country is a highly complex system with many interdependencies. The idiotic perspective is that some of us deserve good healthcare more than others of us.

Now as I said previously. The real issue on this forum is getting back on topic. We don't need the political bullshit of the loud mouthed Obama haters who will say anything true or false or irrelevant.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., KenSP@ wrote:

ColleaguesI think you are dreaming if you think that ACA or a single payer will be the answer to the healthcare. The first thing is Medicare and Medicaid is a single payer for many of us who have retired.? It is reasonably price. The issue is not the cost, but finding a doctor who accepts Medicare / Medicaid Patients. The law cannot force a doctor to work at a specified price. Otherwise it is slavery. So he can legally refuse to accept patients as long as he does not discriminate. A doctor determines what he is willing to accept in payment for his service. There are not enough doctors to treat everyone.Today, a doctor now asks "Do you have insurance and with whom?" before he is willing to even accept you as a patient. Some will advise you upfront that they expect payment when services are render and they post such a sign in their office. There are many who will pay upfront to be treated by the doctor of their choice and who has an excellent reputation.Many doctors, in the New York City and Westchester County are not accepting Medicare / Medicaid patients.? The reason is that the government reimbursement is to low. If a doctor accepts a Medicare patient, he must also take Medicaid patients.? A medicaid patient pays nothing, not even the 20% a Medicare patient pays. A doctor receives about 65% of the reimbursement he gets for treating Medicare patients - so he refuses to treat either. The reimbursement the doctor receives from the government does not cover his costs especially his malpractice insurance so why accept Medicare or Medicaid patients.In Westchester, a nearby hospital closed because a majority of their patients where under Medicaid and they went bankrupt. There also have been some hospital closing in New York City and the wait in emergency room has increase in the other hospitals.Even if you have private or company insurance, like my daughter who has a healthcare insurance policy from her company listed on the New York Stock Exchange, was told by her doctor, he does not accept any insurance.? She had to pay his fees with a credit card and when the doctor received payment from the insurance company (three months later), he gave her the amount he received. Her out of pocket costs was 40% of the fee.? This is not the case with the Hospital but with the doctors.As you can see, it does not matter what insurance you have, if no doctor, other than a hospital, is willing to accept it, what good is insurance. So dream on about ACA and a single payer. You may have the reasonably priced insurance you want but it won't by you medical services if a doctor does not accept it.From a retiree who is under Medicare----- Original Message -----From: Danny Baptista Date: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 12:40 pmSubject: Re: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive Consequences From ObamacareTo: ibmpensionissues@...














?












Rick, thank you. I've also been fed up
with the misinformed reactionary rhetoric from this site that I
find in my inbox often these days. An FYI to you all: I'm looking
forward to increased access to health care that is not quite as
expensive and not quite as much a rip-off, and I welcome the ACA
as an incremental and progressive step towards single payer.


?


Sorry. Not me.

However, you did prove my point.

--- In ibmpensionissues@...,
buckwildbeemer <no_reply@> wrote:
>
> OK, now tell us what ya did at IBM!
>
>
>
> --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
"Rick b Cool" <rickboehme@> wrote:
> >
> > Perhaps this thread can get back on topic
without the radical reactionary rhetoric firmly grounded
in delusions.
> >
> > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
"Rick b Cool" <rickboehme@> wrote:
> > >
> > > WOW.
> > >
> > > This forum has turned into just another
radical reactionary shithole. Completely off topic. Yet
another internet place for delusions, distortions, and
lies.
> > >
> > > Fact: The full text of the ACA was
available almost the whole time. Obviously less the
changes currently being proposed and discussed.
> > >
> > > Fact: The people who do this kind of
whining are exclusively completely self centered
anti-social morons who don't consider all the benefits
they receive at others expense, or the great benefits of
have a great society that supports all the people, grows
the economy, and increases the standard of living. They
simply dream of how good it would be if they retained
everything they have and get and somehow didn't have to
pay for any of it. All the advances of society and
technology, the vast bulk of which they had nothing to do
with. I am quite sure they use words like socialist and
communist and have no idea what either term actually
means. They certainly have no idea what the term
capitalist actually means now what Adam Smith was trying
to achieve.
> > >
> > > All they do is whine and hope that someone
will give them everything they desire while not giving to
others they feel are undeserving. All while deceiving
themselves that they are independent individuals
supporting themselves outside all that exists and all that
has gone before.
> > >
> > > Back to the good old days when only white
male protestants who own landed estates have any rights or
benefits of the wealth society and all the people create.
> > >
> > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
pawnedmyrolex <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Reminds me of the new Lib movie
remake: "Dependence Day"
> > > >
> > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
"zimowski@" <zimowski@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Those who re-elected Obama now
need to eat his dog food.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
spitzerisnoweiner <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Soooo glad I never joined a
union...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is a bad
re-distribution of wealth for sure.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
























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ColleaguesI think you are dreaming if you think that ACA or a single payer will be the answer to the healthcare. The first thing is Medicare and Medicaid is a single payer for many of us who have retired.? It is reasonably price. The issue is not the cost, but finding a doctor who accepts Medicare / Medicaid Patients. The law cannot force a doctor to work at a specified price. Otherwise it is slavery. So he can legally refuse to accept patients as long as he does not discriminate. A doctor determines what he is willing to accept in payment for his service. There are not enough doctors to treat everyone.Today, a doctor now asks "Do you have insurance and with whom?" before he is willing to even accept you as a patient. Some will advise you upfront that they expect payment when services are render and they post such a sign in their office. There are many who will pay upfront to be treated by the doctor of their choice and who has an excellent reputation.Many doctors, in the New York City and Westchester County are not accepting Medicare / Medicaid patients.? The reason is that the government reimbursement is to low. If a doctor accepts a Medicare patient, he must also take Medicaid patients.? A medicaid patient pays nothing, not even the 20% a Medicare patient pays. A doctor receives about 65% of the reimbursement he gets for treating Medicare patients - so he refuses to treat either. The reimbursement the doctor receives from the government does not cover his costs especially his malpractice insurance so why accept Medicare or Medicaid patients.In Westchester, a nearby hospital closed because a majority of their patients where under Medicaid and they went bankrupt. There also have been some hospital closing in New York City and the wait in emergency room has increase in the other hospitals.Even if you have private or company insurance, like my daughter who has a healthcare insurance policy from her company listed on the New York Stock Exchange, was told by her doctor, he does not accept any insurance.? She had to pay his fees with a credit card and when the doctor received payment from the insurance company (three months later), he gave her the amount he received. Her out of pocket costs was 40% of the fee.? This is not the case with the Hospital but with the doctors.As you can see, it does not matter what insurance you have, if no doctor, other than a hospital, is willing to accept it, what good is insurance. So dream on about ACA and a single payer. You may have the reasonably priced insurance you want but it won't by you medical services if a doctor does not accept it.From a retiree who is under Medicare----- Original Message -----From: Danny Baptista Date: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 12:40 pmSubject: Re: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive Consequences From ObamacareTo: ibmpensionissues@...














?












Rick, thank you. I've also been fed up
with the misinformed reactionary rhetoric from this site that I
find in my inbox often these days. An FYI to you all: I'm looking
forward to increased access to health care that is not quite as
expensive and not quite as much a rip-off, and I welcome the ACA
as an incremental and progressive step towards single payer.


?


Sorry. Not me.

However, you did prove my point.

--- In ibmpensionissues@...,
buckwildbeemer <no_reply@> wrote:
>
> OK, now tell us what ya did at IBM!
>
>
>
> --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
"Rick b Cool" <rickboehme@> wrote:
> >
> > Perhaps this thread can get back on topic
without the radical reactionary rhetoric firmly grounded
in delusions.
> >
> > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
"Rick b Cool" <rickboehme@> wrote:
> > >
> > > WOW.
> > >
> > > This forum has turned into just another
radical reactionary shithole. Completely off topic. Yet
another internet place for delusions, distortions, and
lies.
> > >
> > > Fact: The full text of the ACA was
available almost the whole time. Obviously less the
changes currently being proposed and discussed.
> > >
> > > Fact: The people who do this kind of
whining are exclusively completely self centered
anti-social morons who don't consider all the benefits
they receive at others expense, or the great benefits of
have a great society that supports all the people, grows
the economy, and increases the standard of living. They
simply dream of how good it would be if they retained
everything they have and get and somehow didn't have to
pay for any of it. All the advances of society and
technology, the vast bulk of which they had nothing to do
with. I am quite sure they use words like socialist and
communist and have no idea what either term actually
means. They certainly have no idea what the term
capitalist actually means now what Adam Smith was trying
to achieve.
> > >
> > > All they do is whine and hope that someone
will give them everything they desire while not giving to
others they feel are undeserving. All while deceiving
themselves that they are independent individuals
supporting themselves outside all that exists and all that
has gone before.
> > >
> > > Back to the good old days when only white
male protestants who own landed estates have any rights or
benefits of the wealth society and all the people create.
> > >
> > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
pawnedmyrolex <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Reminds me of the new Lib movie
remake: "Dependence Day"
> > > >
> > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
"zimowski@" <zimowski@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Those who re-elected Obama now
need to eat his dog food.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
spitzerisnoweiner <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Soooo glad I never joined a
union...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is a bad
re-distribution of wealth for sure.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
























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Once again, IBMpension is in a cycle of meta-discussion about individuals and not the pension program.

?

Sorry. Not me.

However, you did prove my point.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., buckwildbeemer wrote:
>
> OK, now tell us what ya did at IBM!
>
>
>
> --- In ibmpensionissues@..., "Rick b Cool" wrote:
> >
> > Perhaps this thread can get back on topic without the radical reactionary rhetoric firmly grounded in delusions.
> >
> > --- In ibmpensionissues@..., "Rick b Cool" wrote:
> > >
> > > WOW.
> > >
> > > This forum has turned into just another radical reactionary shithole. Completely off topic. Yet another internet place for delusions, distortions, and lies.
> > >
> > > Fact: The full text of the ACA was available almost the whole time. Obviously less the changes currently being proposed and discussed.
> > >
> > > Fact: The people who do this kind of whining are exclusively completely self centered anti-social morons who don't consider all the benefits they receive at others expense, or the great benefits of have a great society that supports all the people, grows the economy, and increases the standard of living. They simply dream of how good it would be if they retained everything they have and get and somehow didn't have to pay for any of it. All the advances of society and technology, the vast bulk of which they had nothing to do with. I am quite sure they use words like socialist and communist and have no idea what either term actually means. They certainly have no idea what the term capitalist actually means now what Adam Smith was trying to achieve.
> > >
> > > All they do is whine and hope that someone will give them everything they desire while not giving to others they feel are undeserving. All while deceiving themselves that they are independent individuals supporting themselves outside all that exists and all that has gone before.
> > >
> > > Back to the good old days when only white male protestants who own landed estates have any rights or benefits of the wealth society and all the people create.
> > >
> > > --- In ibmpensionissues@..., pawnedmyrolex wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Reminds me of the new Lib movie remake: "Dependence Day"
> > > >
> > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@..., "zimowski@" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Those who re-elected Obama now need to eat his dog food.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@..., spitzerisnoweiner wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Soooo glad I never joined a union...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is a bad re-distribution of wealth for sure.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

OK, now tell us what ya did at IBM!



--- In ibmpensionissues@..., "Rick b Cool" <rickboehme@> wrote:

Perhaps this thread can get back on topic without the radical reactionary rhetoric firmly grounded in delusions.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., "Rick b Cool" <rickboehme@> wrote:

WOW.

This forum has turned into just another radical reactionary shithole. Completely off topic. Yet another internet place for delusions, distortions, and lies.

Fact: The full text of the ACA was available almost the whole time. Obviously less the changes currently being proposed and discussed.

Fact: The people who do this kind of whining are exclusively completely self centered anti-social morons who don't consider all the benefits they receive at others expense, or the great benefits of have a great society that supports all the people, grows the economy, and increases the standard of living. They simply dream of how good it would be if they retained everything they have and get and somehow didn't have to pay for any of it. All the advances of society and technology, the vast bulk of which they had nothing to do with. I am quite sure they use words like socialist and communist and have no idea what either term actually means. They certainly have no idea what the term capitalist actually means now what Adam Smith was trying to achieve.

All they do is whine and hope that someone will give them everything they desire while not giving to others they feel are undeserving. All while deceiving themselves that they are independent individuals supporting themselves outside all that exists and all that has gone before.

Back to the good old days when only white male protestants who own landed estates have any rights or benefits of the wealth society and all the people create.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., pawnedmyrolex <no_reply@> wrote:

Reminds me of the new Lib movie remake: "Dependence Day"

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., "zimowski@" <zimowski@> wrote:

Those who re-elected Obama now need to eat his dog food.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., spitzerisnoweiner <no_reply@> wrote:

Soooo glad I never joined a union...

This is a bad re-distribution of wealth for sure.

This Health Care Bill....like most pieces of Legislation...was written by the Health Care Industry Lobbyists in Washington. ??Very few bills are Ever written by the Congressmen, themselves....instead they are written by representatives of the Special Interests, and the Politicians just "Sponsor" them. ??As such, you can be sure that hidden in the bowels of this Bill, there are ample provisions to protect those who are getting quite wealthy off the misfortune and illnesses of the general population. ??WE are merely Pawns in the Global Chess Game taking place among the ultra wealthy as they try to "Out Billionaire" each other. ??If you want to Really Know who runs this country, just go to Opensecrets.org, and see where these politicians get their campaign money....then go to VoteSmart.org, and study their voting record. ??It quickly becomes apparent as to who the Masters really are. ??We truly have the best government that Big Money can buy. ??


________________________________
From: Tom <logan70389@...>
To: ibmpensionissues@...
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 8:27 AM
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive Consequences From Obamacare



??
I would like to know where this health care bill actually came from. Obama, Reid, and Pelosi are just puppets in this scam. They are politicians - there is no way they crafted about 20k pages of legislation in a couple months. This health care bill had to be on the shelf already. With the press today - we will probably never know.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., "Kevin W" <nowwicked@> wrote:

Many of us pointed out the potential pitfalls of this path several years ago. We were shouted down as haters, fear mongers even called racist simply because we didn't believe in the hype of the program.
Those supporting the program didn't bat an eye when they were told "we must pass this bill so we can see what is in it." All they saw were the vapor promises.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., spitzerisnoweiner <no_reply@> wrote:

Soooo glad I never joined a union...

This is a bad re-distribution of wealth for sure.

Perhaps this thread can get back on topic without the radical reactionary rhetoric firmly grounded in delusions.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., "Rick b Cool" <rickboehme@> wrote:

WOW.

This forum has turned into just another radical reactionary shithole. Completely off topic. Yet another internet place for delusions, distortions, and lies.

Fact: The full text of the ACA was available almost the whole time. Obviously less the changes currently being proposed and discussed.

Fact: The people who do this kind of whining are exclusively completely self centered anti-social morons who don't consider all the benefits they receive at others expense, or the great benefits of have a great society that supports all the people, grows the economy, and increases the standard of living. They simply dream of how good it would be if they retained everything they have and get and somehow didn't have to pay for any of it. All the advances of society and technology, the vast bulk of which they had nothing to do with. I am quite sure they use words like socialist and communist and have no idea what either term actually means. They certainly have no idea what the term capitalist actually means now what Adam Smith was trying to achieve.

All they do is whine and hope that someone will give them everything they desire while not giving to others they feel are undeserving. All while deceiving themselves that they are independent individuals supporting themselves outside all that exists and all that has gone before.

Back to the good old days when only white male protestants who own landed estates have any rights or benefits of the wealth society and all the people create.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., pawnedmyrolex <no_reply@> wrote:

Reminds me of the new Lib movie remake: "Dependence Day"

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., "zimowski@" <zimowski@> wrote:

Those who re-elected Obama now need to eat his dog food.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., spitzerisnoweiner <no_reply@> wrote:

Soooo glad I never joined a union...

This is a bad re-distribution of wealth for sure.

Those who re-elected Obama now need to eat his dog food.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., spitzerisnoweiner <no_reply@> wrote:

Soooo glad I never joined a union...

This is a bad re-distribution of wealth for sure.

I would like to know where this health care bill actually came from. Obama, Reid, and Pelosi are just puppets in this scam. They are politicians - there is no way they crafted about 20k pages of legislation in a couple months. This health care bill had to be on the shelf already. With the press today - we will probably never know.

Many of us pointed out the potential pitfalls of this path several years ago. We were shouted down as haters, fear mongers even called racist simply because we didn't believe in the hype of the program.
Those supporting the program didn't bat an eye when they were told "we must pass this bill so we can see what is in it." All they saw were the vapor promises.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., spitzerisnoweiner <no_reply@> wrote:

Soooo glad I never joined a union...

This is a bad re-distribution of wealth for sure.

Soooo glad I never joined a union...

This is a bad re-distribution of wealth for sure.

I think it's becoming increasingly clear that ACA is NOT the answer. Obama == BS