Wish Rob? a stable and fast recovery.

On Mon, 27 Jul 2020, 1:52 pm MVS Sarma via , <mvssarma=[email protected]> wrote:

Wish you to recover soober Rob

Regards

Sarma? vu3zmv

On Mon, 27 Jul 2020, 1:13 pm Rob via , <roomberg=[email protected]> wrote:

My vision is impaired.

I have something like macular degeneration messed up retinas and
everything looks crushed and twisted to me so

I need bigger, much bigger , everything .......when I tinker with
electronics.

and

all of the CAD interfaces have tiny text on racks of tools and buttons
onscreen

and

all of the features and settings are easily trashed by me tripping
accidentally over them

so

I step back and declare thats not my tool set and stick "caveman" simple
... paint on the wall.....

and get the desired results.

and

I share these tidbits with you all because HOME BREW PCBS is really at
all levels.....?? from the simple hand drawn sharpie on PCB to the
advanced CAD

programs with detailed granularity tracking component libraries.


There is something for everybody here.

I learned how to make GERBER files last winter.

Neat stuff.

Have fun.

I am.














On 07/27/2020 03:28 AM, brane212 wrote:
> Don0t see the point.
>
> gEDA + PCB is not complicated. Just the opposite.
>
> Whatever the elarnign curve is, it affects stuff you need to knwow
> anyway. YOu can use PCB directly, but I find it to be a pain without
> schematic.
>
> Only slightly cryptic thing is to learn to define an element.
> BFew tidbits aside, it's not that different from drawqing a schematic.
>
>
> Schematic is a good bookkeeping part that that you need for
> documentation and keeping the basis fro netlist ( what ought to be
> connected with what).
>
> PCB contains stuff that you need. GIMP has no concept of element.
> You can't just move the resistor pads in GIMP etc.
>
> Above, all GIMP can't keep you in check - shorts and breaks are made
> easily, once your example contains anything more than one transistor
> and couple resistors.
>
> With PCB, printing is relatively easy - just export EPS ina importi in
> Inkscape. This way you can easily do DIY panelization - import EPS of
> wantd layers, mirror them and arrange as you wish.
>
> Also, GIMP is raster-based. SO, to get deccent resolution, you
> probably need 1200 dpi. WHich can get really slow, once you have
> bigger board and more layers.
>
> Really, no reason to torture yourself with GIMP for this.
>
> Don't know about KiCAD ( never liked it), but gEDA+PCB+Inkscape is
> golden for this. Plus gerbview to check design before sending it to
> manuifacturing.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 27. 07. 20 05:47, Rob via wrote:
>> Here's some tidbits to chew on for home brewing your own PCBs
>> "caveman" style.... without the aid of
>>
>> the complicated CAD....? (C)omputer (A)ided? (D)esign software.
>>
>> Take this for what its worth for you.....?? I make no claims to fame
>> here.... just massive success.. again and again and again... for me
>> and my tinkering with building
>>
>> radios and other electronic toys from scratch without suffering
>> through the indiginities of breadboard or loose wires or crazy glue
>> pads failing to work then chasing tail for a week.
>>
>>
>> It always starts with a schematic.
>>
>> so.....
>>
>> I simply take a picture of the schematic and open it in GIMP image
>> editer....?? learn here if you don't know it:
>>
>> These images came from :
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> and then simply trace all of the thin lines with a fat black ink pen
>> tool and
>> add donut holes for all components and draw the components in red or
>> purple
>> and move things around enough to accomodate physical parts connections.
>> AND ALWAYS LAY PARTs DOWN.... never have resistors or diodes standing
>> on one end.
>>
>> Laying parts down uses more space but it makes it much easier for
>> kids and newbies to
>> succesfully build a radio.
>> AND
>> laying parts down create HUGE pathways on the copper side of the
>> board to accomodate
>> trace routing without being screwed by tight spacing.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> and then I remove everything ... just erase all the text and purple
>> and have toner transfer ready artwork.
>>
>>
>> This is one the the most simple examples I share because it is a $5
>> short wave receiver
>>
>> that has been made all over the world... because it is so simple to
>> reproduce succesfully.
>>
>> I few modifications later....?????? and final outcome was this:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 07/26/2020 10:24 PM, Charlie Hansen wrote:
>>> And then there's fun of solving a "puzzle" with the routing of the
>>> traces, avoiding "ground loops", noisy power traces, etc etc. I too
>>> haven't used Eagle etc, but I DO like to use a simple CAD like
>>> Micrographics Designer V3x
>>> Charlie
>>>
>>> ??? And then
>>>
>>> ??? there's all sorts of CAD programmer to help you... but you may not
>>> ??? need CAD.
>>>
>>> ??? I have made more than 100 PCBs and I have not yet used ANY EAGLE
>>> ??? or any other CAD program.
>>>
>>>
>>> ??? Rob
>>>
>>> ???
>>>
>>> ???
>>>
>>> ???
>>>
>>> ???
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ??? On 07/25/2020 09:30 PM, Harvey White wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ??? Nope.? Don't do videos.
>>>>
>>>> ??? Now questions:
>>>>
>>>> ??? 1) designing what?? Digital?? Analog?? RF?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 2) what level of complexity?? Do you need 1 layer, 2 layer, or 4
>>>> ??? layer boards?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself? (it makes a
>>>> ??? difference in how you design them).
>>>>
>>>> ??? 4) how big are they (can make a difference in either cost/who
>>>> ??? makes it or design/what program you use)?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 5) what program do you use?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 6) have you any experience with PC board design?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 7) what level of hardware debug do you want to put into the
>>>> ??? boards (test points?? test pads?? logic analyzer breakouts?
>>>> ??? ground posts?)
>>>>
>>>> ??? 8) what kind of facilities do you have to make PC boards?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 9) have you done any of this before?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 10) what level (roughly) in electronics design are you
>>>> ??? comfortable with?? beginner?? what?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ??? All of these things have a bearing on *how* you design something,
>>>> ??? what design you come up with, how many copies you'll need before
>>>> ??? you get one that works (know that one.....), and whether or not
>>>> ??? you can make the board yourself.
>>>>
>>>> ??? I know this may sound complicated, but answers to some of these
>>>> ??? help others to gauge where you are in experience, and what you
>>>> ??? need to know (IMHO, of course).
>>>>
>>>> ??? For me: (roughly)
>>>>
>>>> ??? 1) designing:? Digital,? Analog.? Have done 100 pin flatpacks.
>>>> ??? (self built), do 144 pin flatpacks when someone else builds them).
>>>>
>>>> ??? 2) I do double sided, plated through holes, silk screen, but
>>>> ??? that's not me making them.? Have done toner transfer, 10 mil
>>>> ??? trace, 10 mil spacing, double sided, wire stitch top and bottom
>>>> ??? layers, tin/lead plated boards.
>>>>
>>>> ??? 3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself? (it makes a
>>>> ??? difference in how you design them).
>>>>
>>>> ??? 4) no bigger than 100 cm * 100 cm because of the board house
>>>> ??? limitations for cheap?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 5) EAGLE 7.7, hobby (6 x 4 inch) license, can't sell the boards.?
>>>>
>>>> ??? 6) by this time?? a fair amount, can always learn more
>>>>
>>>> ??? 7) logic analyzer breakouts for digital, pin headers for some
>>>> ??? signals, some test pads, ground connectors, monitor leds
>>>>
>>>> ??? 8) used to make double sided boards, not plated through, designs
>>>> ??? got too complicated for me to make
>>>>
>>>> ??? 9) lots
>>>>
>>>> ??? 10) not beginner in digital, some analog, power supply
>>>>
>>>> ??? Other people will have different opinions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ??? Harvey
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ??? On 7/12/2020 12:59 AM, davethetechman via wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> ??? Hi, does anyone have any personal videos of designing with their
>>>>> ??? own personal tips and hacks?
>>>>>
>>>>> ??? Recently new to this.
>>>>>
>>>>> ??? Thanks
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

My vision is impaired.
I have something like macular degeneration messed up retinas and everything looks crushed and twisted to me so
I need bigger, much bigger , everything .......when I tinker with electronics.
and
all of the CAD interfaces have tiny text on racks of tools and buttons onscreen
and
all of the features and settings are easily trashed by me tripping accidentally over them
so
I step back and declare thats not my tool set and stick "caveman" simple ... paint on the wall.....
and get the desired results.
and
I share these tidbits with you all because HOME BREW PCBS is really at all levels.....?? from the simple hand drawn sharpie on PCB to the advanced CAD
programs with detailed granularity tracking component libraries.
There is something for everybody here.
I learned how to make GERBER files last winter.
Neat stuff.
Have fun.
I am.
On 07/27/2020 03:28 AM, brane212 wrote:

Don0t see the point.

gEDA + PCB is not complicated. Just the opposite.

Whatever the elarnign curve is, it affects stuff you need to knwow anyway. YOu can use PCB directly, but I find it to be a pain without schematic.

Only slightly cryptic thing is to learn to define an element.
BFew tidbits aside, it's not that different from drawqing a schematic.


Schematic is a good bookkeeping part that that you need for documentation and keeping the basis fro netlist ( what ought to be connected with what).

PCB contains stuff that you need. GIMP has no concept of element.
You can't just move the resistor pads in GIMP etc.

Above, all GIMP can't keep you in check - shorts and breaks are made easily, once your example contains anything more than one transistor and couple resistors.

With PCB, printing is relatively easy - just export EPS ina importi in Inkscape. This way you can easily do DIY panelization - import EPS of wantd layers, mirror them and arrange as you wish.

Also, GIMP is raster-based. SO, to get deccent resolution, you probably need 1200 dpi. WHich can get really slow, once you have bigger board and more layers.

Really, no reason to torture yourself with GIMP for this.

Don't know about KiCAD ( never liked it), but gEDA+PCB+Inkscape is golden for this. Plus gerbview to check design before sending it to manuifacturing.







On 27. 07. 20 05:47, Rob via groups.io wrote:

Here's some tidbits to chew on for home brewing your own PCBs "caveman" style.... without the aid of

the complicated CAD....? (C)omputer (A)ided? (D)esign software.

Take this for what its worth for you.....?? I make no claims to fame here.... just massive success.. again and again and again... for me and my tinkering with building

radios and other electronic toys from scratch without suffering through the indiginities of breadboard or loose wires or crazy glue pads failing to work then chasing tail for a week.


It always starts with a schematic.

so.....

I simply take a picture of the schematic and open it in GIMP image editer....?? learn here if you don't know it:

These images came from :




and then simply trace all of the thin lines with a fat black ink pen tool and
add donut holes for all components and draw the components in red or purple
and move things around enough to accomodate physical parts connections.
AND ALWAYS LAY PARTs DOWN.... never have resistors or diodes standing on one end.

Laying parts down uses more space but it makes it much easier for kids and newbies to
succesfully build a radio.
AND
laying parts down create HUGE pathways on the copper side of the board to accomodate
trace routing without being screwed by tight spacing.







and then I remove everything ... just erase all the text and purple and have toner transfer ready artwork.


This is one the the most simple examples I share because it is a $5 short wave receiver

that has been made all over the world... because it is so simple to reproduce succesfully.

I few modifications later....?????? and final outcome was this:








On 07/26/2020 10:24 PM, Charlie Hansen wrote:

And then there's fun of solving a "puzzle" with the routing of the
traces, avoiding "ground loops", noisy power traces, etc etc. I too
haven't used Eagle etc, but I DO like to use a simple CAD like
Micrographics Designer V3x
Charlie

??? And then

??? there's all sorts of CAD programmer to help you... but you may not
??? need CAD.

??? I have made more than 100 PCBs and I have not yet used ANY EAGLE
??? or any other CAD program.


??? Rob

???

???

???

???









??? On 07/25/2020 09:30 PM, Harvey White wrote:

??? Nope.? Don't do videos.

??? Now questions:

??? 1) designing what?? Digital?? Analog?? RF?

??? 2) what level of complexity?? Do you need 1 layer, 2 layer, or 4
??? layer boards?

??? 3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself? (it makes a
??? difference in how you design them).

??? 4) how big are they (can make a difference in either cost/who
??? makes it or design/what program you use)?

??? 5) what program do you use?

??? 6) have you any experience with PC board design?

??? 7) what level of hardware debug do you want to put into the
??? boards (test points?? test pads?? logic analyzer breakouts?
??? ground posts?)

??? 8) what kind of facilities do you have to make PC boards?

??? 9) have you done any of this before?

??? 10) what level (roughly) in electronics design are you
??? comfortable with?? beginner?? what?


??? All of these things have a bearing on *how* you design something,
??? what design you come up with, how many copies you'll need before
??? you get one that works (know that one.....), and whether or not
??? you can make the board yourself.

??? I know this may sound complicated, but answers to some of these
??? help others to gauge where you are in experience, and what you
??? need to know (IMHO, of course).

??? For me: (roughly)

??? 1) designing:? Digital,? Analog.? Have done 100 pin flatpacks.
??? (self built), do 144 pin flatpacks when someone else builds them).

??? 2) I do double sided, plated through holes, silk screen, but
??? that's not me making them.? Have done toner transfer, 10 mil
??? trace, 10 mil spacing, double sided, wire stitch top and bottom
??? layers, tin/lead plated boards.

??? 3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself? (it makes a
??? difference in how you design them).

??? 4) no bigger than 100 cm * 100 cm because of the board house
??? limitations for cheap?

??? 5) EAGLE 7.7, hobby (6 x 4 inch) license, can't sell the boards.?

??? 6) by this time?? a fair amount, can always learn more

??? 7) logic analyzer breakouts for digital, pin headers for some
??? signals, some test pads, ground connectors, monitor leds

??? 8) used to make double sided boards, not plated through, designs
??? got too complicated for me to make

??? 9) lots

??? 10) not beginner in digital, some analog, power supply

??? Other people will have different opinions.


??? Harvey


??? On 7/12/2020 12:59 AM, davethetechman via groups.io wrote:

??? Hi, does anyone have any personal videos of designing with their
??? own personal tips and hacks?

??? Recently new to this.

??? Thanks

Don0t see the point.

gEDA + PCB is not complicated. Just the opposite.

Whatever the elarnign curve is, it affects stuff you need to knwow anyway. YOu can use PCB directly, but I find it to be a pain without schematic.

Only slightly cryptic thing is to learn to define an element.
BFew tidbits aside, it's not that different from drawqing a schematic.


Schematic is a good bookkeeping part that that you need for documentation and keeping the basis fro netlist ( what ought to be connected with what).

PCB contains stuff that you need. GIMP has no concept of element.
You can't just move the resistor pads in GIMP etc.

Above, all GIMP can't keep you in check - shorts and breaks are made easily, once your example contains anything more than one transistor and couple resistors.

With PCB, printing is relatively easy - just export EPS ina importi in Inkscape. This way you can easily do DIY panelization - import EPS of wantd layers, mirror them and arrange as you wish.

Also, GIMP is raster-based. SO, to get deccent resolution, you probably need 1200 dpi. WHich can get really slow, once you have bigger board and more layers.

Really, no reason to torture yourself with GIMP for this.

Don't know about KiCAD ( never liked it), but gEDA+PCB+Inkscape is golden for this. Plus gerbview to check design before sending it to manuifacturing.







On 27. 07. 20 05:47, Rob via groups.io wrote:

Here's some tidbits to chew on for home brewing your own PCBs "caveman" style.... without the aid of

the complicated CAD....? (C)omputer (A)ided? (D)esign software.

Take this for what its worth for you.....?? I make no claims to fame here.... just massive success.. again and again and again... for me and my tinkering with building

radios and other electronic toys from scratch without suffering through the indiginities of breadboard or loose wires or crazy glue pads failing to work then chasing tail for a week.


It always starts with a schematic.

so.....

I simply take a picture of the schematic and open it in GIMP image editer....?? learn here if you don't know it:

These images came from :




and then simply trace all of the thin lines with a fat black ink pen tool and
add donut holes for all components and draw the components in red or purple
and move things around enough to accomodate physical parts connections.
AND ALWAYS LAY PARTs DOWN.... never have resistors or diodes standing on one end.

Laying parts down uses more space but it makes it much easier for kids and newbies to
succesfully build a radio.
AND
laying parts down create HUGE pathways on the copper side of the board to accomodate
trace routing without being screwed by tight spacing.







and then I remove everything ... just erase all the text and purple and have toner transfer ready artwork.


This is one the the most simple examples I share because it is a $5 short wave receiver

that has been made all over the world... because it is so simple to reproduce succesfully.

I few modifications later....?????? and final outcome was this:








On 07/26/2020 10:24 PM, Charlie Hansen wrote:

And then there's fun of solving a "puzzle" with the routing of the
traces, avoiding "ground loops", noisy power traces, etc etc. I too
haven't used Eagle etc, but I DO like to use a simple CAD like
Micrographics Designer V3x
Charlie

??? And then

??? there's all sorts of CAD programmer to help you... but you may not
??? need CAD.

??? I have made more than 100 PCBs and I have not yet used ANY EAGLE
??? or any other CAD program.


??? Rob

???

???

???

???









??? On 07/25/2020 09:30 PM, Harvey White wrote:

??? Nope.? Don't do videos.

??? Now questions:

??? 1) designing what?? Digital?? Analog?? RF?

??? 2) what level of complexity?? Do you need 1 layer, 2 layer, or 4
??? layer boards?

??? 3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself? (it makes a
??? difference in how you design them).

??? 4) how big are they (can make a difference in either cost/who
??? makes it or design/what program you use)?

??? 5) what program do you use?

??? 6) have you any experience with PC board design?

??? 7) what level of hardware debug do you want to put into the
??? boards (test points?? test pads?? logic analyzer breakouts?
??? ground posts?)

??? 8) what kind of facilities do you have to make PC boards?

??? 9) have you done any of this before?

??? 10) what level (roughly) in electronics design are you
??? comfortable with?? beginner?? what?


??? All of these things have a bearing on *how* you design something,
??? what design you come up with, how many copies you'll need before
??? you get one that works (know that one.....), and whether or not
??? you can make the board yourself.

??? I know this may sound complicated, but answers to some of these
??? help others to gauge where you are in experience, and what you
??? need to know (IMHO, of course).

??? For me: (roughly)

??? 1) designing:? Digital,? Analog.? Have done 100 pin flatpacks.
??? (self built), do 144 pin flatpacks when someone else builds them).

??? 2) I do double sided, plated through holes, silk screen, but
??? that's not me making them.? Have done toner transfer, 10 mil
??? trace, 10 mil spacing, double sided, wire stitch top and bottom
??? layers, tin/lead plated boards.

??? 3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself? (it makes a
??? difference in how you design them).

??? 4) no bigger than 100 cm * 100 cm because of the board house
??? limitations for cheap?

??? 5) EAGLE 7.7, hobby (6 x 4 inch) license, can't sell the boards.?

??? 6) by this time?? a fair amount, can always learn more

??? 7) logic analyzer breakouts for digital, pin headers for some
??? signals, some test pads, ground connectors, monitor leds

??? 8) used to make double sided boards, not plated through, designs
??? got too complicated for me to make

??? 9) lots

??? 10) not beginner in digital, some analog, power supply

??? Other people will have different opinions.


??? Harvey


??? On 7/12/2020 12:59 AM, davethetechman via groups.io wrote:

??? Hi, does anyone have any personal videos of designing with their
??? own personal tips and hacks?

??? Recently new to this.

??? Thanks

Here's some tidbits to chew on for home brewing your own PCBs "caveman" style.... without the aid of
the complicated CAD....? (C)omputer (A)ided? (D)esign ? software.
Take this for what its worth for you.....?? I make no claims to fame here.... just massive success.. again and again and again... for me and my tinkering with building
radios and other electronic toys from scratch without suffering through the indiginities of breadboard or loose wires or crazy glue pads failing to work then chasing tail for a week.
It always starts with a schematic.
so.....
I simply take a picture of the schematic and open it in GIMP image editer....?? learn here if you don't know it:
These images came from :
and then simply trace all of the thin lines with a fat black ink pen tool and
add donut holes for all components and draw the components in red or purple
and move things around enough to accomodate physical parts connections.
AND ALWAYS LAY PARTs DOWN.... never have resistors or diodes standing on one end.
Laying parts down uses more space but it makes it much easier for kids and newbies to
succesfully build a radio.
AND
laying parts down create HUGE pathways on the copper side of the board to accomodate
trace routing without being screwed by tight spacing.
and then I remove everything ... just erase all the text and purple and have toner transfer ready artwork.
This is one the the most simple examples I share because it is a $5 short wave receiver
that has been made all over the world... because it is so simple to reproduce succesfully.
I few modifications later....?????? and final outcome was this:
On 07/26/2020 10:24 PM, Charlie Hansen wrote:

And then there's fun of solving a "puzzle" with the routing of the
traces, avoiding "ground loops", noisy power traces, etc etc.? I too
haven't used Eagle etc, but I DO like to use a simple CAD like
Micrographics Designer V3x
Charlie

And then

there's all sorts of CAD programmer to help you... but you may not
need CAD.

I have made more than 100 PCBs and I have not yet used ANY EAGLE
or any other CAD program.


Rob

















On 07/25/2020 09:30 PM, Harvey White wrote:

Nope.? Don't do videos.

Now questions:

1) designing what?? Digital?? Analog?? RF?

2) what level of complexity?? Do you need 1 layer, 2 layer, or 4
layer boards?

3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself? (it makes a
difference in how you design them).

4) how big are they (can make a difference in either cost/who
makes it or design/what program you use)?

5) what program do you use?

6) have you any experience with PC board design?

7) what level of hardware debug do you want to put into the
boards (test points?? test pads?? logic analyzer breakouts?
ground posts?)

8) what kind of facilities do you have to make PC boards?

9) have you done any of this before?

10) what level (roughly) in electronics design are you
comfortable with?? beginner?? what?


All of these things have a bearing on *how* you design something,
what design you come up with, how many copies you'll need before
you get one that works (know that one.....), and whether or not
you can make the board yourself.

I know this may sound complicated, but answers to some of these
help others to gauge where you are in experience, and what you
need to know (IMHO, of course).

For me: (roughly)

1) designing:? Digital,? Analog.? Have done 100 pin flatpacks.
(self built), do 144 pin flatpacks when someone else builds them).

2) I do double sided, plated through holes, silk screen, but
that's not me making them.? Have done toner transfer, 10 mil
trace, 10 mil spacing, double sided, wire stitch top and bottom
layers, tin/lead plated boards.

3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself? (it makes a
difference in how you design them).

4) no bigger than 100 cm * 100 cm because of the board house
limitations for cheap?

5) EAGLE 7.7, hobby (6 x 4 inch) license, can't sell the boards.?

6) by this time?? a fair amount, can always learn more

7) logic analyzer breakouts for digital, pin headers for some
signals, some test pads, ground connectors, monitor leds

8) used to make double sided boards, not plated through, designs
got too complicated for me to make

9) lots

10) not beginner in digital, some analog, power supply

Other people will have different opinions.


Harvey


On 7/12/2020 12:59 AM, davethetechman via groups.io wrote:

Hi, does anyone have any personal videos of designing with their
own personal tips and hacks?

Recently new to this.

Thanks

And then there's fun of solving a "puzzle" with the routing of the

traces, avoiding "ground loops", noisy power traces, etc etc.? I too

haven't used Eagle etc, but I DO like to use a simple CAD like

Micrographics Designer V3x

?

Charlie

And then

there's all sorts of CAD programmer to help you... but you may not need CAD.

I have made more than 100 PCBs and I have not yet used ANY EAGLE or any other CAD program.

Rob

On 07/25/2020 09:30 PM, Harvey White wrote:

Nope.? Don't do videos.

Now questions:

1) designing what?? Digital?? Analog?? RF??

2) what level of complexity?? Do you need 1 layer, 2 layer, or 4 layer boards?

3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself? (it makes a difference in how you design them).

4) how big are they (can make a difference in either cost/who makes it or design/what program you use)?

5) what program do you use?

6) have you any experience with PC board design?

7) what level of hardware debug do you want to put into the boards (test points?? test pads?? logic analyzer breakouts?? ground posts?)

8) what kind of facilities do you have to make PC boards?

9) have you done any of this before?

10) what level (roughly) in electronics design are you comfortable with?? beginner?? what?

All of these things have a bearing on *how* you design something, what design you come up with, how many copies you'll need before you get one that works (know that one.....), and whether or not you can make the board yourself.

I know this may sound complicated, but answers to some of these help others to gauge where you are in experience, and what you need to know (IMHO, of course).

For me: (roughly)

1) designing:? Digital,? Analog.? Have done 100 pin flatpacks. (self built), do 144 pin flatpacks when someone else builds them).

2) I do double sided, plated through holes, silk screen, but that's not me making them.? Have done toner transfer, 10 mil trace, 10 mil spacing, double sided, wire stitch top and bottom layers, tin/lead plated boards.

3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself? (it makes a difference in how you design them).

4) no bigger than 100 cm * 100 cm because of the board house limitations for cheap?

5) EAGLE 7.7, hobby (6 x 4 inch) license, can't sell the boards.?

6) by this time?? a fair amount, can always learn more

7) logic analyzer breakouts for digital, pin headers for some signals, some test pads, ground connectors, monitor leds

8) used to make double sided boards, not plated through, designs got too complicated for me to make

9) lots

10) not beginner in digital, some analog, power supply

Other people will have different opinions.

Harvey

On 7/12/2020 12:59 AM, davethetechman via groups.io wrote:

Hi, does anyone have any personal videos of designing with their own personal tips and hacks?

Recently new to this.

Thanks

?

?

And then

there's all sorts of CAD programmer to help you... but you may not need CAD.

I have made more than 100 PCBs and I have not yet used ANY EAGLE or any other CAD program.

Rob

On 07/25/2020 09:30 PM, Harvey White wrote:

Nope.? Don't do videos.

Now questions:

1) designing what?? Digital?? Analog?? RF??

2) what level of complexity?? Do you need 1 layer, 2 layer, or 4 layer boards?

3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself? (it makes a difference in how you design them).

4) how big are they (can make a difference in either cost/who makes it or design/what program you use)?

5) what program do you use?

6) have you any experience with PC board design?

7) what level of hardware debug do you want to put into the boards (test points?? test pads?? logic analyzer breakouts?? ground posts?)

8) what kind of facilities do you have to make PC boards?

9) have you done any of this before?

10) what level (roughly) in electronics design are you comfortable with?? beginner?? what?

All of these things have a bearing on *how* you design something, what design you come up with, how many copies you'll need before you get one that works (know that one.....), and whether or not you can make the board yourself.

I know this may sound complicated, but answers to some of these help others to gauge where you are in experience, and what you need to know (IMHO, of course).

For me: (roughly)

1) designing:? Digital,? Analog.? Have done 100 pin flatpacks. (self built), do 144 pin flatpacks when someone else builds them).

2) I do double sided, plated through holes, silk screen, but that's not me making them.? Have done toner transfer, 10 mil trace, 10 mil spacing, double sided, wire stitch top and bottom layers, tin/lead plated boards.

3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself? (it makes a difference in how you design them).

4) no bigger than 100 cm * 100 cm because of the board house limitations for cheap?

5) EAGLE 7.7, hobby (6 x 4 inch) license, can't sell the boards.?

6) by this time?? a fair amount, can always learn more

7) logic analyzer breakouts for digital, pin headers for some signals, some test pads, ground connectors, monitor leds

8) used to make double sided boards, not plated through, designs got too complicated for me to make

9) lots

10) not beginner in digital, some analog, power supply

Other people will have different opinions.

Harvey

On 7/12/2020 12:59 AM, davethetechman via groups.io wrote:

Hi, does anyone have any personal videos of designing with their own personal tips and hacks?

Recently new to this.

Thanks

?

?

Rob and I do boards differently.? Some of the designs I did were 100 pin chips with 0.65 or 0.5 mm pin spacing, toner transfer.? You'll need a very good drill/drill press, a good laminator, a decent laser printer, and a PCB design program.? This because the boards are complex enough to need them.? Complexity of the boards is an important factor.? I used a mixture of SMD and through hole, with 0805 and 1206 parts, depending.? It very very much depend on what you want to do and how much effort you want to put into it.? Home processes have limitations.? Some people have done plated through holes, and I admire their dedication.? It became easier for me to have boards made.?

That doesn't mean that making your own boards is a waste of time.? Just, to me, that past a certain level of complexity, type of part and so on, it makes more sense to have someone else make the boards.? You're still designing them, then.

and I do agree, the main question is "what do you want to make?"

all the questions devolve from there.

Harvey

On 7/25/2020 10:40 PM, Rob via groups.io wrote:

YES

I agree with Harvey slamming out the BIG list of questions......

To Davethetechman .......

It really starts with you answering the ONE question of WHAT you want to make.

You can? HOME BREW PCBS with a very bare minimum of technical software, expensive chemicals, and specialty equipment

OR

go can go full throttle with all sorts of professional expenditures because your target PCB is for something with extremely tiny SMD ships with 144 pins.

Do you want to use THROUGH HOLE PART or SMD?

If THROUGH HOLE then you can manually draw a schematic on copper clad board with a permanent marker and 10 minutes later etch a PCB.

If SMD then you can do the same but have to have a good eye and steady hand.

And then

there's all sorts of CAD programmer to help you... but you may not need CAD.

I have made more than 100 PCBs and I have not yet used ANY EAGLE or any other CAD program.

Rob

On 07/25/2020 09:30 PM, Harvey White wrote:

Nope.? Don't do videos.

Now questions:

1) designing what?? Digital?? Analog?? RF??

2) what level of complexity?? Do you need 1 layer, 2 layer, or 4 layer boards?

3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself? (it makes a difference in how you design them).

4) how big are they (can make a difference in either cost/who makes it or design/what program you use)?

5) what program do you use?

6) have you any experience with PC board design?

7) what level of hardware debug do you want to put into the boards (test points?? test pads?? logic analyzer breakouts?? ground posts?)

8) what kind of facilities do you have to make PC boards?

9) have you done any of this before?

10) what level (roughly) in electronics design are you comfortable with?? beginner?? what?

All of these things have a bearing on *how* you design something, what design you come up with, how many copies you'll need before you get one that works (know that one.....), and whether or not you can make the board yourself.

I know this may sound complicated, but answers to some of these help others to gauge where you are in experience, and what you need to know (IMHO, of course).

For me: (roughly)

1) designing:? Digital,? Analog.? Have done 100 pin flatpacks. (self built), do 144 pin flatpacks when someone else builds them).

2) I do double sided, plated through holes, silk screen, but that's not me making them.? Have done toner transfer, 10 mil trace, 10 mil spacing, double sided, wire stitch top and bottom layers, tin/lead plated boards.

3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself? (it makes a difference in how you design them).

4) no bigger than 100 cm * 100 cm because of the board house limitations for cheap?

5) EAGLE 7.7, hobby (6 x 4 inch) license, can't sell the boards.?

6) by this time?? a fair amount, can always learn more

7) logic analyzer breakouts for digital, pin headers for some signals, some test pads, ground connectors, monitor leds

8) used to make double sided boards, not plated through, designs got too complicated for me to make

9) lots

10) not beginner in digital, some analog, power supply

Other people will have different opinions.

Harvey

On 7/12/2020 12:59 AM, davethetechman via groups.io wrote:

Hi, does anyone have any personal videos of designing with their own personal tips and hacks?

Recently new to this.

Thanks

?

YES

I agree with Harvey slamming out the BIG list of questions......

To Davethetechman .......

It really starts with you answering the ONE question of WHAT you want to make.

You can? HOME BREW PCBS with a very bare minimum of technical software, expensive chemicals, and specialty equipment

OR

go can go full throttle with all sorts of professional expenditures because your target PCB is for something with extremely tiny SMD ships with 144 pins.

Do you want to use THROUGH HOLE PART or SMD?

If THROUGH HOLE then you can manually draw a schematic on copper clad board with a permanent marker and 10 minutes later etch a PCB.

If SMD then you can do the same but have to have a good eye and steady hand.

And then

there's all sorts of CAD programmer to help you... but you may not need CAD.

I have made more than 100 PCBs and I have not yet used ANY EAGLE or any other CAD program.

Rob

On 07/25/2020 09:30 PM, Harvey White wrote:

Nope.? Don't do videos.

Now questions:

1) designing what?? Digital?? Analog?? RF??

2) what level of complexity?? Do you need 1 layer, 2 layer, or 4 layer boards?

3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself? (it makes a difference in how you design them).

4) how big are they (can make a difference in either cost/who makes it or design/what program you use)?

5) what program do you use?

6) have you any experience with PC board design?

7) what level of hardware debug do you want to put into the boards (test points?? test pads?? logic analyzer breakouts?? ground posts?)

8) what kind of facilities do you have to make PC boards?

9) have you done any of this before?

10) what level (roughly) in electronics design are you comfortable with?? beginner?? what?

All of these things have a bearing on *how* you design something, what design you come up with, how many copies you'll need before you get one that works (know that one.....), and whether or not you can make the board yourself.

I know this may sound complicated, but answers to some of these help others to gauge where you are in experience, and what you need to know (IMHO, of course).

For me: (roughly)

1) designing:? Digital,? Analog.? Have done 100 pin flatpacks. (self built), do 144 pin flatpacks when someone else builds them).

2) I do double sided, plated through holes, silk screen, but that's not me making them.? Have done toner transfer, 10 mil trace, 10 mil spacing, double sided, wire stitch top and bottom layers, tin/lead plated boards.

3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself? (it makes a difference in how you design them).

4) no bigger than 100 cm * 100 cm because of the board house limitations for cheap?

5) EAGLE 7.7, hobby (6 x 4 inch) license, can't sell the boards.?

6) by this time?? a fair amount, can always learn more

7) logic analyzer breakouts for digital, pin headers for some signals, some test pads, ground connectors, monitor leds

8) used to make double sided boards, not plated through, designs got too complicated for me to make

9) lots

10) not beginner in digital, some analog, power supply

Other people will have different opinions.

Harvey

On 7/12/2020 12:59 AM, davethetechman via groups.io wrote:

Hi, does anyone have any personal videos of designing with their own personal tips and hacks?

Recently new to this.

Thanks

?

Nope.? Don't do videos.

Now questions:

1) designing what?? Digital?? Analog?? RF??

2) what level of complexity?? Do you need 1 layer, 2 layer, or 4 layer boards?

3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself? (it makes a difference in how you design them).

4) how big are they (can make a difference in either cost/who makes it or design/what program you use)?

5) what program do you use?

6) have you any experience with PC board design?

7) what level of hardware debug do you want to put into the boards (test points?? test pads?? logic analyzer breakouts?? ground posts?)

8) what kind of facilities do you have to make PC boards?

9) have you done any of this before?

10) what level (roughly) in electronics design are you comfortable with?? beginner?? what?

All of these things have a bearing on *how* you design something, what design you come up with, how many copies you'll need before you get one that works (know that one.....), and whether or not you can make the board yourself.

I know this may sound complicated, but answers to some of these help others to gauge where you are in experience, and what you need to know (IMHO, of course).

For me: (roughly)

1) designing:? Digital,? Analog.? Have done 100 pin flatpacks. (self built), do 144 pin flatpacks when someone else builds them).

2) I do double sided, plated through holes, silk screen, but that's not me making them.? Have done toner transfer, 10 mil trace, 10 mil spacing, double sided, wire stitch top and bottom layers, tin/lead plated boards.

3) do you intend to produce these boards yourself? (it makes a difference in how you design them).

4) no bigger than 100 cm * 100 cm because of the board house limitations for cheap?

5) EAGLE 7.7, hobby (6 x 4 inch) license, can't sell the boards.?

6) by this time?? a fair amount, can always learn more

7) logic analyzer breakouts for digital, pin headers for some signals, some test pads, ground connectors, monitor leds

8) used to make double sided boards, not plated through, designs got too complicated for me to make

9) lots

10) not beginner in digital, some analog, power supply

Other people will have different opinions.

Harvey

On 7/12/2020 12:59 AM, davethetechman via groups.io wrote:

Hi, does anyone have any personal videos of designing with their own personal tips and hacks?

Recently new to this.

Thanks

?

Hi, does anyone have any personal videos of designing with their own personal tips and hacks?

Recently new to this.

Thanks

?

I have and still prefer a dedicated pid controler with ramp/soak such as the auberins.com SYL-2352P or equivalent from Amazon. Simple to set up? and does the job without the complexity of programming a multipurpose microcontroller.?

Also I just open the door manually too at the end of the cycle, after all I'm not flowing PCBs 8 hours a day , more likely? once a month.?

A cheap but newer model toaster oven with quartz elements and good insulation on the inside + front and back follows? a profile nicely.?

Chaz?

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 8:31 AM, Albert Marsh

<hitekgearhead@...> wrote:

I saw this article come through my email this morning, and in light of recent toaster oven discussions I thought I would share it with you guys.



-Albert
KI4OI

I LIKE THIS ELEGANT SOLUTION!!!!!!??? THANK YOU!!

Dirt cheap and everything you need is already here if you have an ARDUINO experimenter kit which comes with servos
and... thermistors are sold by AMASON ... pack of 5 for $13.

???

On 06/26/2020 09:00 AM, chaz via groups.io wrote:

I have and still prefer a dedicated pid controler with ramp/soak such as the auberins.com SYL-2352P or equivalent from Amazon. Simple to set up? and does the job without the complexity of programming a multipurpose microcontroller.?

Also I just open the door manually too at the end of the cycle, after all I'm not flowing PCBs 8 hours a day , more likely? once a month.?

A cheap but newer model toaster oven with quartz elements and good insulation on the inside + front and back follows? a profile nicely.?

Chaz?

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 8:31 AM, Albert Marsh

<hitekgearhead@...> wrote:

I saw this article come through my email this morning, and in light of recent toaster oven discussions I thought I would share it with you guys.



-Albert
KI4OI

I have and still prefer a dedicated pid controler with ramp/soak such as the auberins.com SYL-2352P or equivalent from Amazon. Simple to set up? and does the job without the complexity of programming a multipurpose microcontroller.?

Also I just open the door manually too at the end of the cycle, after all I'm not flowing PCBs 8 hours a day , more likely? once a month.?

A cheap but newer model toaster oven with quartz elements and good insulation on the inside + front and back follows? a profile nicely.?

Chaz?

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 8:31 AM, Albert Marsh

<hitekgearhead@...> wrote:

I saw this article come through my email this morning, and in light of recent toaster oven discussions I thought I would share it with you guys.



-Albert
KI4OI

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 8:31 AM, Albert Marsh

<hitekgearhead@...> wrote:

I saw this article come through my email this morning, and in light of recent toaster oven discussions I thought I would share it with you guys.



-Albert
KI4OI

@ Bertho: That's an very interesting note. Thanks for sharing that. I
wonder if the slit also broke some sort of surface tension at play to
help the solder get where it needed to go.