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Re: X-77-Tonewheel Generator - BEARINGS - LUBRICATIONS - UPDATE-19FEB23 - switch problem?

 

You might want to try a

Jonard OB-1/3 Burnisher with Black Plastic Insulated Handle, For Fine Contacts

Amazon:



Unfortunately I haven't had any success with this switch combination.
I have applied a switch cleaner without any success.
I have found that there is very little contact pressure on these switches to begin with.
I came up with a way to attempt to "clean" the contact surfaces in addition to just "wetting" the surfaces with a cleaner.
I have found a business card (0.26mm) that has a "rough surface" (as opposed to a glossy card) and absorbs cleaner freely. Cut it up (shaped) to be able to slip between the contacts (when open), then closed the switch, soaked the card with cleaner, and wiggled it around, trying to rub the mating surfaces.
I got the manuals to work better, but not the pedals.


There is no way to actually "see" the condition of the contact surfaces.? Many questions arise:
1) is there any corrosion?
2) is there any contamination of any type?
3) how much contact is actually taking place on each of the five "springs"?
4) are each of the five "springs" providing exactly (or close) the same amount of contact pressure?
5) "which" spring or springs are NOT making contact?

It is the last point that has me thinking it might be a prudent step to remove these switches from the circuit and test for continuity to be able to know which one(s) are contacting which are not in order to know which to work on.
Thoughts?
Is there a better way to check or clean?

Having looked at the switch assembly, I believe I can remove the entire assembly and put in on the bench. It will be a fair bit of work, but very doable.
What do you think is the best way to proceed?
Re: X-77-Tonewheel Generator - BEARINGS - LUBRICATIONS - UPDATE-19FEB23 - switch problem?

 

Unfortunately I haven't had any success with this switch combination.
I have applied a switch cleaner without any success.
I have found that there is very little contact pressure on these switches to begin with.
I came up with a way to attempt to "clean" the contact surfaces in addition to just "wetting" the surfaces with a cleaner.
I have found a business card (0.26mm) that has a "rough surface" (as opposed to a glossy card) and absorbs cleaner freely. Cut it up (shaped) to be able to slip between the contacts (when open), then closed the switch, soaked the card with cleaner, and wiggled it around, trying to rub the mating surfaces.
I got the manuals to work better, but not the pedals.


There is no way to actually "see" the condition of the contact surfaces.? Many questions arise:
1) is there any corrosion?
2) is there any contamination of any type?
3) how much contact is actually taking place on each of the five "springs"?
4) are each of the five "springs" providing exactly (or close) the same amount of contact pressure?
5) "which" spring or springs are NOT making contact?

It is the last point that has me thinking it might be a prudent step to remove these switches from the circuit and test for continuity to be able to know which one(s) are contacting which are not in order to know which to work on.
Thoughts?
Is there a better way to check or clean?

Having looked at the switch assembly, I believe I can remove the entire assembly and put in on the bench. It will be a fair bit of work, but very doable.
What do you think is the best way to proceed?


On Thursday, February 16, 2023 at 10:38:06?AM PST, Wayne Tarling via groups.io <tarlingw@...> wrote:


Got it ..thanks.? Now I can see the very obvious "gap" at the contact point as well.


On Thursday, February 16, 2023 at 10:23:53?AM PST, Chris Clifton <clifton.christopher@...> wrote:


I've just got this switch assembly from an L-100 out of my loft. If you very gently press where my screwdriver is, that pushes the spring below the actuator inwards. That makes the part of the spring above the actuator move outwards. The normal range of movement is quite small, a millimetre or so. You only need to change the position of the spring by a fraction of that to make a difference.

On 16/02/2023 17:57, Chris Clifton wrote:

Yes, the clear plastic part is what actuates the contacts, the springs (1) in your photo. The contacts open when the dimple in the spring moves into the cavity in the actuator. When the actuator is moved so that the dimple in the spring is on the land between cavities, this pushes the spring outwards to make contact with the fixed contact (3) in your photo. What I have found from experience is that if a switch doesn't make good contact after treatment with switch cleaner, pressing the narrow part of the contact spring slightly inwards with the tip of a small screwdriver causes the end of the spring to move outwards, making a better contact when switched on. A very small movement is usually sufficient.

The actual contact point can be seen in your first photo. On the end of the spring (1) you can just see the ends of a pair of (palladium?) contact wires just under the fixed contact (3). These contacts are actually very similar to the key contacts in the manuals of Hammond organs. Small pieces of semi-precious metal wire spot welded onto the contacts.

On 16/02/2023 16:47, Wayne Tarling via groups.io wrote:
Thanks Chris ....now I can proceed with a little confidence ...but one simple question ....where are the actual contact points?

I was able to take a few photos of what I believe is the contact area ..."from one side".? There are two conditions, the first is "make" and the other is "break" (B)

I have looked at the switch assembly for closely. The "outer boards" appear to be only a "non-conductive mounting method" for the terminals (4) on the outside and perhaps the "springs" (1 ?) which you referred to.? ? The arrow marked "2" is the slider which has cavities milled into it.? The arrow "1" shows what's called a detent feature, but in this case it is the method of pushing and releasing this "spring" which is making and breaking contact ...which is truly hard to see. Hence the second photo (B) which the detents are released into the milled pockets (seen in the first photo) ....and supposedly, the actual contact point "3" is broken (?).? You can see a little bit of a "shadow line" as if there is now a "gap" in this condition.

The third unmarked photo is just a crop of the photo above it, trying to get a closer "look" at this contact point area.
Re: X-77-Tonewheel Generator - BEARINGS - LUBRICATIONS - UPDATE-15FEB23 - switch problem?

 

Got it ..thanks.? Now I can see the very obvious "gap" at the contact point as well.


On Thursday, February 16, 2023 at 10:23:53?AM PST, Chris Clifton <clifton.christopher@...> wrote:


I've just got this switch assembly from an L-100 out of my loft. If you very gently press where my screwdriver is, that pushes the spring below the actuator inwards. That makes the part of the spring above the actuator move outwards. The normal range of movement is quite small, a millimetre or so. You only need to change the position of the spring by a fraction of that to make a difference.

On 16/02/2023 17:57, Chris Clifton wrote:

Yes, the clear plastic part is what actuates the contacts, the springs (1) in your photo. The contacts open when the dimple in the spring moves into the cavity in the actuator. When the actuator is moved so that the dimple in the spring is on the land between cavities, this pushes the spring outwards to make contact with the fixed contact (3) in your photo. What I have found from experience is that if a switch doesn't make good contact after treatment with switch cleaner, pressing the narrow part of the contact spring slightly inwards with the tip of a small screwdriver causes the end of the spring to move outwards, making a better contact when switched on. A very small movement is usually sufficient.

The actual contact point can be seen in your first photo. On the end of the spring (1) you can just see the ends of a pair of (palladium?) contact wires just under the fixed contact (3). These contacts are actually very similar to the key contacts in the manuals of Hammond organs. Small pieces of semi-precious metal wire spot welded onto the contacts.

On 16/02/2023 16:47, Wayne Tarling via groups.io wrote:
Thanks Chris ....now I can proceed with a little confidence ...but one simple question ....where are the actual contact points?

I was able to take a few photos of what I believe is the contact area ..."from one side".? There are two conditions, the first is "make" and the other is "break" (B)

I have looked at the switch assembly for closely. The "outer boards" appear to be only a "non-conductive mounting method" for the terminals (4) on the outside and perhaps the "springs" (1 ?) which you referred to.? ? The arrow marked "2" is the slider which has cavities milled into it.? The arrow "1" shows what's called a detent feature, but in this case it is the method of pushing and releasing this "spring" which is making and breaking contact ...which is truly hard to see. Hence the second photo (B) which the detents are released into the milled pockets (seen in the first photo) ....and supposedly, the actual contact point "3" is broken (?).? You can see a little bit of a "shadow line" as if there is now a "gap" in this condition.

The third unmarked photo is just a crop of the photo above it, trying to get a closer "look" at this contact point area.
Re: X-77-Tonewheel Generator - BEARINGS - LUBRICATIONS - UPDATE-15FEB23 - switch problem?

 

Thanks Chris ...I'll focus on "point of contact" area "3" first.? I am thinking of "paper" first.? Thin and both marginally abrasive and absorbent.

Maybe with "contacts open", I can get a longer length of paper under all contacts and then close the contacts ...then move the length of paper back and forth to scrub the areas.? Maybe even use a "methyl hydrate" on the paper after it is fitted between the contacts (if it will stay firm). I guess I'll be busy today.

What about lubrication sparingly anywhere in this assembly, perhaps around the "dimples"(?). As mentioned, the adjacent tab feels and sounds a lot smoother/quieter(?) Any special type?? I see some light coloured grease on the draw bars.? Perhaps something like a lithium base?



On Thursday, February 16, 2023 at 09:58:03?AM PST, Chris Clifton <clifton.christopher@...> wrote:


Yes, the clear plastic part is what actuates the contacts, the springs (1) in your photo. The contacts open when the dimple in the spring moves into the cavity in the actuator. When the actuator is moved so that the dimple in the spring is on the land between cavities, this pushes the spring outwards to make contact with the fixed contact (3) in your photo. What I have found from experience is that if a switch doesn't make good contact after treatment with switch cleaner, pressing the narrow part of the contact spring slightly inwards with the tip of a small screwdriver causes the end of the spring to move outwards, making a better contact when switched on. A very small movement is usually sufficient.

The actual contact point can be seen in your first photo. On the end of the spring (1) you can just see the ends of a pair of (palladium?) contact wires just under the fixed contact (3). These contacts are actually very similar to the key contacts in the manuals of Hammond organs. Small pieces of semi-precious metal wire spot welded onto the contacts.

On 16/02/2023 16:47, Wayne Tarling via groups.io wrote:
Thanks Chris ....now I can proceed with a little confidence ...but one simple question ....where are the actual contact points?

I was able to take a few photos of what I believe is the contact area ..."from one side".? There are two conditions, the first is "make" and the other is "break" (B)

I have looked at the switch assembly for closely. The "outer boards" appear to be only a "non-conductive mounting method" for the terminals (4) on the outside and perhaps the "springs" (1 ?) which you referred to.? ? The arrow marked "2" is the slider which has cavities milled into it.? The arrow "1" shows what's called a detent feature, but in this case it is the method of pushing and releasing this "spring" which is making and breaking contact ...which is truly hard to see. Hence the second photo (B) which the detents are released into the milled pockets (seen in the first photo) ....and supposedly, the actual contact point "3" is broken (?).? You can see a little bit of a "shadow line" as if there is now a "gap" in this condition.

The third unmarked photo is just a crop of the photo above it, trying to get a closer "look" at this contact point area.
Re: X-77-Tonewheel Generator - BEARINGS - LUBRICATIONS - UPDATE-15FEB23 - switch problem?

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

I've just got this switch assembly from an L-100 out of my loft. If you very gently press where my screwdriver is, that pushes the spring below the actuator inwards. That makes the part of the spring above the actuator move outwards. The normal range of movement is quite small, a millimetre or so. You only need to change the position of the spring by a fraction of that to make a difference.

On 16/02/2023 17:57, Chris Clifton wrote:

Yes, the clear plastic part is what actuates the contacts, the springs (1) in your photo. The contacts open when the dimple in the spring moves into the cavity in the actuator. When the actuator is moved so that the dimple in the spring is on the land between cavities, this pushes the spring outwards to make contact with the fixed contact (3) in your photo. What I have found from experience is that if a switch doesn't make good contact after treatment with switch cleaner, pressing the narrow part of the contact spring slightly inwards with the tip of a small screwdriver causes the end of the spring to move outwards, making a better contact when switched on. A very small movement is usually sufficient.

The actual contact point can be seen in your first photo. On the end of the spring (1) you can just see the ends of a pair of (palladium?) contact wires just under the fixed contact (3). These contacts are actually very similar to the key contacts in the manuals of Hammond organs. Small pieces of semi-precious metal wire spot welded onto the contacts.

On 16/02/2023 16:47, Wayne Tarling via groups.io wrote:
Thanks Chris ....now I can proceed with a little confidence ...but one simple question ....where are the actual contact points?

I was able to take a few photos of what I believe is the contact area ..."from one side".? There are two conditions, the first is "make" and the other is "break" (B)

I have looked at the switch assembly for closely. The "outer boards" appear to be only a "non-conductive mounting method" for the terminals (4) on the outside and perhaps the "springs" (1 ?) which you referred to.? ? The arrow marked "2" is the slider which has cavities milled into it.? The arrow "1" shows what's called a detent feature, but in this case it is the method of pushing and releasing this "spring" which is making and breaking contact ...which is truly hard to see. Hence the second photo (B) which the detents are released into the milled pockets (seen in the first photo) ....and supposedly, the actual contact point "3" is broken (?).? You can see a little bit of a "shadow line" as if there is now a "gap" in this condition.

The third unmarked photo is just a crop of the photo above it, trying to get a closer "look" at this contact point area.
Re: X-77-Tonewheel Generator - BEARINGS - LUBRICATIONS - UPDATE-15FEB23 - switch problem?

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Yes, the clear plastic part is what actuates the contacts, the springs (1) in your photo. The contacts open when the dimple in the spring moves into the cavity in the actuator. When the actuator is moved so that the dimple in the spring is on the land between cavities, this pushes the spring outwards to make contact with the fixed contact (3) in your photo. What I have found from experience is that if a switch doesn't make good contact after treatment with switch cleaner, pressing the narrow part of the contact spring slightly inwards with the tip of a small screwdriver causes the end of the spring to move outwards, making a better contact when switched on. A very small movement is usually sufficient.

The actual contact point can be seen in your first photo. On the end of the spring (1) you can just see the ends of a pair of (palladium?) contact wires just under the fixed contact (3). These contacts are actually very similar to the key contacts in the manuals of Hammond organs. Small pieces of semi-precious metal wire spot welded onto the contacts.

On 16/02/2023 16:47, Wayne Tarling via groups.io wrote:

Thanks Chris ....now I can proceed with a little confidence ...but one simple question ....where are the actual contact points?

I was able to take a few photos of what I believe is the contact area ..."from one side".? There are two conditions, the first is "make" and the other is "break" (B)

I have looked at the switch assembly for closely. The "outer boards" appear to be only a "non-conductive mounting method" for the terminals (4) on the outside and perhaps the "springs" (1 ?) which you referred to.? ? The arrow marked "2" is the slider which has cavities milled into it.? The arrow "1" shows what's called a detent feature, but in this case it is the method of pushing and releasing this "spring" which is making and breaking contact ...which is truly hard to see. Hence the second photo (B) which the detents are released into the milled pockets (seen in the first photo) ....and supposedly, the actual contact point "3" is broken (?).? You can see a little bit of a "shadow line" as if there is now a "gap" in this condition.

The third unmarked photo is just a crop of the photo above it, trying to get a closer "look" at this contact point area.
Re: X-77-Tonewheel Generator - BEARINGS - LUBRICATIONS - UPDATE-15FEB23 - switch problem?

 

Thanks Chris ....now I can proceed with a little confidence ...but one simple question ....where are the actual contact points?

I was able to take a few photos of what I believe is the contact area ..."from one side".? There are two conditions, the first is "make" and the other is "break" (B)

I have looked at the switch assembly for closely. The "outer boards" appear to be only a "non-conductive mounting method" for the terminals (4) on the outside and perhaps the "springs" (1 ?) which you referred to.? ? The arrow marked "2" is the slider which has cavities milled into it.? The arrow "1" shows what's called a detent feature, but in this case it is the method of pushing and releasing this "spring" which is making and breaking contact ...which is truly hard to see. Hence the second photo (B) which the detents are released into the milled pockets (seen in the first photo) ....and supposedly, the actual contact point "3" is broken (?).? You can see a little bit of a "shadow line" as if there is now a "gap" in this condition.

The third unmarked photo is just a crop of the photo above it, trying to get a closer "look" at this contact point area.

Inline image


Inline image



Inline image


I just need to know if I am correct, if this spot identified as "3" is in fact where the contact is (?)? If correct, then I know where to concentrate on on the opposite side which is going to be tricky to reach. I might consider some way of using a thin, cleaner-soaked cloth to get between the contact points and move back and forth very delicately.

This being said, do you know if there is any actual "point" per se ...or is this merely flat metal-to-metal contact?? I note that it appears each contact may actually have TWO contact points. The "springs" appear to be "split" on the ends.



I hope you can follow my "query". Sorry for the length. I just want to understand what's going on before I do anything.

Thanks
Wayne


PS - is there a lube that should be used on these switches?? I notice that the "Main Only" switch feels and sounds different from this "Echo Only switch. I can't see any different between the two (no obvious evidence of extra lube)?








On Thursday, February 16, 2023 at 03:16:33?AM PST, Chris Clifton <clifton.christopher@...> wrote:


Those are the type of switch used in many Hammond models, E, L and M-100 series are the most common ones, and of course, your X-77.

Switch cleaner is indeed the first course of action, and may well be sufficient to cure the problem. Don't even think about dismantling the switch assemblies, it shouldn't be necessary anyway. I have found that when switch cleaner doesn't work on these switches, it's usually because the moving leaf contact has bent slightly, and no longer presses hard enough against the fixed contact in the on position. I've found that by gently pressing the contact spring with a small screwdriver near the fixed end it's possible to bend the contact slightly and increase the contact pressure. I stress "gently", only a small bend is necessary, and it will be hard to undo if you over do it.

On 15/02/2023 17:49, Wayne Tarling via groups.io wrote:
Well, "guessing" the instructions as to which screws, etc., the entire top assembly comes right off very easily, exposing what needs to be exposed and the top metal cover, ditto.

As it turns out, (as the experts already knew/know), these tabs/switches are all mechanical.? They were not meant to be disassembled (all rivetted together), and looking at how the entire tab assemblies have been manufactured, Hammond has considered the possibility that things might fail, and figure out ways for fixes to be done.

The only thing I cannot "see" clearly is the slide contact which is sandwiched between the boards.? I am very reluctant to split this assembly apart. It may be far more logical to use a cleaner first and find out what the results will be.? ? Any thoughts from anyone?

For the non-experts, here are photos of these tab/switch assemblies.

Inline image
and the suspected tab:
Inline image








----- Forwarded Message -----

From: Wayne Tarling <tarlingw@...>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 05:51:29?PM PST
Subject: Fw: [hammondzone] X-77-Tonewheel Generator - BEARINGS - LUBRICATIONS - UPDATE-14FEB23 - switch problem?

Well everything went reasonably well. TWG running very quiet.? Manuals functioning? ....pedals not.

I opened up the console base panel, which had not been touched yet.

I disconnected the 77 Leslie previously as it had too much power hum for the stage I was at. (Didn't need to be listening to it)


a)? with the pedals not "responding", I thought I would try the "Pedal Bus-Bar Shifter".? It has a slot on the end of the shaft as if for a screwdriver, but I thought I would try turning with my fingers first.? To my surprise, the shaft moved very easily CW about 90¡ã? and not so much CCW ....so I left it re-positioned 90¡ã CW.? ? I tried the pedals ....no change.? ?I went back to the speaker selector, "Main Only" and "Echo Only", just moving the switches, and immediately had the pedals working with "Echo Only" depressed. (147)? I was quite surprised with this as this selector had been down previously with no response.? I went through all the pedals and drawbars and everything was working.

b) I powered down to connect the 77 Leslie. Powering back up got the 8-10 seconds of power hum, which subsided more significantly this time and put the "Main Only" speaker selector down and had full pedals (77) ....but I couldn't tell if the 147 was still functioning.? Pushing the "Echo Only" tab down and found the 147 was now NOT working with the pedals. (It had been 20 seconds ago)? Keyboards were fine (both).? I ended up flicking this (Echo Only) switch up and down, getting mainly electrical contact clicking with no connection for the pedals.? (????)

Unfortunately, looking at the back of the organ, the entire bank of these switches are buried behind a metal box running full length.? There are also a few screws on the top of this metal box, which can only be accessed with the top of the console removed.

With much "playing around", I am getting to the summary that the "Echo Only" tab/switch (147) is either not making a proper contact for some reason ...perhaps just a cleaning needed?? The "Main Only" switch, when down, (77) the manuals and pedals function fine ...as they should.? I also note, that the power hum from the 77 Leslie is far less now. Pretty much quite acceptable ....as compared to the 147 which has a very too noticeable hum.? ?I see some notes on "HUM" on page 20 & 24 of the Hammond Manual.? I'll check that out later.

Does anyone have any knowledge of accessibility to the "Echo Only" switch?? I cannot see in behind.??

I am looking at page 20 and 21 that reference "removing the top.? There is a section about removing the top:

Inline image

Is this the correct instruction?? I'll have to look around for each of these details, (where these screws are) assuming this is the correct instruction.

Then of course, I am hoping this switch can be tested for "make" condition ....and then can the contacts be cleaned or fixed?

?.....or do I have this all wrong and there is something else causing this problem?? ?So far the problems have been principley mechanical in nature.
Re: Fw: [hammondzone] X-77-Tonewheel Generator - BEARINGS - LUBRICATIONS - UPDATE-15FEB23 - switch problem?

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Those are the type of switch used in many Hammond models, E, L and M-100 series are the most common ones, and of course, your X-77.

Switch cleaner is indeed the first course of action, and may well be sufficient to cure the problem. Don't even think about dismantling the switch assemblies, it shouldn't be necessary anyway. I have found that when switch cleaner doesn't work on these switches, it's usually because the moving leaf contact has bent slightly, and no longer presses hard enough against the fixed contact in the on position. I've found that by gently pressing the contact spring with a small screwdriver near the fixed end it's possible to bend the contact slightly and increase the contact pressure. I stress "gently", only a small bend is necessary, and it will be hard to undo if you over do it.

On 15/02/2023 17:49, Wayne Tarling via groups.io wrote:

Well, "guessing" the instructions as to which screws, etc., the entire top assembly comes right off very easily, exposing what needs to be exposed and the top metal cover, ditto.

As it turns out, (as the experts already knew/know), these tabs/switches are all mechanical.? They were not meant to be disassembled (all rivetted together), and looking at how the entire tab assemblies have been manufactured, Hammond has considered the possibility that things might fail, and figure out ways for fixes to be done.

The only thing I cannot "see" clearly is the slide contact which is sandwiched between the boards.? I am very reluctant to split this assembly apart. It may be far more logical to use a cleaner first and find out what the results will be.? ? Any thoughts from anyone?

For the non-experts, here are photos of these tab/switch assemblies.

and the suspected tab:









----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Wayne Tarling <tarlingw@...>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 05:51:29?PM PST
Subject: Fw: [hammondzone] X-77-Tonewheel Generator - BEARINGS - LUBRICATIONS - UPDATE-14FEB23 - switch problem?

Well everything went reasonably well. TWG running very quiet.? Manuals functioning? ....pedals not.

I opened up the console base panel, which had not been touched yet.

I disconnected the 77 Leslie previously as it had too much power hum for the stage I was at. (Didn't need to be listening to it)


a)? with the pedals not "responding", I thought I would try the "Pedal Bus-Bar Shifter".? It has a slot on the end of the shaft as if for a screwdriver, but I thought I would try turning with my fingers first.? To my surprise, the shaft moved very easily CW about 90¡ã? and not so much CCW ....so I left it re-positioned 90¡ã CW.? ? I tried the pedals ....no change.? ?I went back to the speaker selector, "Main Only" and "Echo Only", just moving the switches, and immediately had the pedals working with "Echo Only" depressed. (147)? I was quite surprised with this as this selector had been down previously with no response.? I went through all the pedals and drawbars and everything was working.

b) I powered down to connect the 77 Leslie. Powering back up got the 8-10 seconds of power hum, which subsided more significantly this time and put the "Main Only" speaker selector down and had full pedals (77) ....but I couldn't tell if the 147 was still functioning.? Pushing the "Echo Only" tab down and found the 147 was now NOT working with the pedals. (It had been 20 seconds ago)? Keyboards were fine (both).? I ended up flicking this (Echo Only) switch up and down, getting mainly electrical contact clicking with no connection for the pedals.? (????)

Unfortunately, looking at the back of the organ, the entire bank of these switches are buried behind a metal box running full length.? There are also a few screws on the top of this metal box, which can only be accessed with the top of the console removed.

With much "playing around", I am getting to the summary that the "Echo Only" tab/switch (147) is either not making a proper contact for some reason ...perhaps just a cleaning needed?? The "Main Only" switch, when down, (77) the manuals and pedals function fine ...as they should.? I also note, that the power hum from the 77 Leslie is far less now. Pretty much quite acceptable ....as compared to the 147 which has a very too noticeable hum.? ?I see some notes on "HUM" on page 20 & 24 of the Hammond Manual.? I'll check that out later.

Does anyone have any knowledge of accessibility to the "Echo Only" switch?? I cannot see in behind.??

I am looking at page 20 and 21 that reference "removing the top.? There is a section about removing the top:



Is this the correct instruction?? I'll have to look around for each of these details, (where these screws are) assuming this is the correct instruction.

Then of course, I am hoping this switch can be tested for "make" condition ....and then can the contacts be cleaned or fixed?

?.....or do I have this all wrong and there is something else causing this problem?? ?So far the problems have been principley mechanical in nature.
Fw: [hammondzone] X-77-Tonewheel Generator - BEARINGS - LUBRICATIONS - UPDATE-15FEB23 - switch problem?

 

Well, "guessing" the instructions as to which screws, etc., the entire top assembly comes right off very easily, exposing what needs to be exposed and the top metal cover, ditto.

As it turns out, (as the experts already knew/know), these tabs/switches are all mechanical.? They were not meant to be disassembled (all rivetted together), and looking at how the entire tab assemblies have been manufactured, Hammond has considered the possibility that things might fail, and figure out ways for fixes to be done.

The only thing I cannot "see" clearly is the slide contact which is sandwiched between the boards.? I am very reluctant to split this assembly apart. It may be far more logical to use a cleaner first and find out what the results will be.? ? Any thoughts from anyone?

For the non-experts, here are photos of these tab/switch assemblies.

Inline image
and the suspected tab:
Inline image








----- Forwarded Message -----

From: Wayne Tarling <tarlingw@...>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 05:51:29?PM PST
Subject: Fw: [hammondzone] X-77-Tonewheel Generator - BEARINGS - LUBRICATIONS - UPDATE-14FEB23 - switch problem?

Well everything went reasonably well. TWG running very quiet.? Manuals functioning? ....pedals not.

I opened up the console base panel, which had not been touched yet.

I disconnected the 77 Leslie previously as it had too much power hum for the stage I was at. (Didn't need to be listening to it)


a)? with the pedals not "responding", I thought I would try the "Pedal Bus-Bar Shifter".? It has a slot on the end of the shaft as if for a screwdriver, but I thought I would try turning with my fingers first.? To my surprise, the shaft moved very easily CW about 90¡ã? and not so much CCW ....so I left it re-positioned 90¡ã CW.? ? I tried the pedals ....no change.? ?I went back to the speaker selector, "Main Only" and "Echo Only", just moving the switches, and immediately had the pedals working with "Echo Only" depressed. (147)? I was quite surprised with this as this selector had been down previously with no response.? I went through all the pedals and drawbars and everything was working.

b) I powered down to connect the 77 Leslie. Powering back up got the 8-10 seconds of power hum, which subsided more significantly this time and put the "Main Only" speaker selector down and had full pedals (77) ....but I couldn't tell if the 147 was still functioning.? Pushing the "Echo Only" tab down and found the 147 was now NOT working with the pedals. (It had been 20 seconds ago)? Keyboards were fine (both).? I ended up flicking this (Echo Only) switch up and down, getting mainly electrical contact clicking with no connection for the pedals.? (????)

Unfortunately, looking at the back of the organ, the entire bank of these switches are buried behind a metal box running full length.? There are also a few screws on the top of this metal box, which can only be accessed with the top of the console removed.

With much "playing around", I am getting to the summary that the "Echo Only" tab/switch (147) is either not making a proper contact for some reason ...perhaps just a cleaning needed?? The "Main Only" switch, when down, (77) the manuals and pedals function fine ...as they should.? I also note, that the power hum from the 77 Leslie is far less now. Pretty much quite acceptable ....as compared to the 147 which has a very too noticeable hum.? ?I see some notes on "HUM" on page 20 & 24 of the Hammond Manual.? I'll check that out later.

Does anyone have any knowledge of accessibility to the "Echo Only" switch?? I cannot see in behind.??

I am looking at page 20 and 21 that reference "removing the top.? There is a section about removing the top:

Inline image

Is this the correct instruction?? I'll have to look around for each of these details, (where these screws are) assuming this is the correct instruction.

Then of course, I am hoping this switch can be tested for "make" condition ....and then can the contacts be cleaned or fixed?

?.....or do I have this all wrong and there is something else causing this problem?? ?So far the problems have been principley mechanical in nature.
Fw: [hammondzone] X-77-Tonewheel Generator - BEARINGS - LUBRICATIONS - UPDATE-14FEB23 - switch problem?

 

Well everything went reasonably well. TWG running very quiet.? Manuals functioning? ....pedals not.

I opened up the console base panel, which had not been touched yet.

I disconnected the 77 Leslie previously as it had too much power hum for the stage I was at. (Didn't need to be listening to it)


a)? with the pedals not "responding", I thought I would try the "Pedal Bus-Bar Shifter".? It has a slot on the end of the shaft as if for a screwdriver, but I thought I would try turning with my fingers first.? To my surprise, the shaft moved very easily CW about 90¡ã? and not so much CCW ....so I left it re-positioned 90¡ã CW.? ? I tried the pedals ....no change.? ?I went back to the speaker selector, "Main Only" and "Echo Only", just moving the switches, and immediately had the pedals working with "Echo Only" depressed. (147)? I was quite surprised with this as this selector had been down previously with no response.? I went through all the pedals and drawbars and everything was working.

b) I powered down to connect the 77 Leslie. Powering back up got the 8-10 seconds of power hum, which subsided more significantly this time and put the "Main Only" speaker selector down and had full pedals (77) ....but I couldn't tell if the 147 was still functioning.? Pushing the "Echo Only" tab down and found the 147 was now NOT working with the pedals. (It had been 20 seconds ago)? Keyboards were fine (both).? I ended up flicking this (Echo Only) switch up and down, getting mainly electrical contact clicking with no connection for the pedals.? (????)

Unfortunately, looking at the back of the organ, the entire bank of these switches are buried behind a metal box running full length.? There are also a few screws on the top of this metal box, which can only be accessed with the top of the console removed.

With much "playing around", I am getting to the summary that the "Echo Only" tab/switch (147) is either not making a proper contact for some reason ...perhaps just a cleaning needed?? The "Main Only" switch, when down, (77) the manuals and pedals function fine ...as they should.? I also note, that the power hum from the 77 Leslie is far less now. Pretty much quite acceptable ....as compared to the 147 which has a very too noticeable hum.? ?I see some notes on "HUM" on page 20 & 24 of the Hammond Manual.? I'll check that out later.

Does anyone have any knowledge of accessibility to the "Echo Only" switch?? I cannot see in behind.??

I am looking at page 20 and 21 that reference "removing the top.? There is a section about removing the top:

Inline image

Is this the correct instruction?? I'll have to look around for each of these details, (where these screws are) assuming this is the correct instruction.

Then of course, I am hoping this switch can be tested for "make" condition ....and then can the contacts be cleaned or fixed?

?.....or do I have this all wrong and there is something else causing this problem?? ?So far the problems have been principley mechanical in nature.
Re: Tonewheel Generator - BEARINGS - LUBRICATIONS

 

Hello Jonathan,
I tried emailing you directly this past Monday but received an error message.
Can you please email me directly at csrote@....
Thnx,
Cardiff Cliff
Re: HAMMOND - Manufacturing Video (& Leslie story)

 

"Depending on the answer, .......he would reply, "Don't do that! It's not necessary." .....is probably "key" .....(no pun intended) ....and of course, is the story true? I would certainly not suggest this one act was what made Marantz successful.? His wife was a part of the company in a very unique engineering way.? I strongly suspect that "decisions" not to do something were not "spontaneous" but rather very calculated.

Also, Marantz is no more, merging with another high-end company, now?D&M Holdings?, but that's not to suggest Marantz was not successful.? There are typically many other factors involved. I still have Marantz in one of my systems.? ?I would have preferred to have been able to afford Denon at the time.? Found a Hafler instead ...which is also no more, but did not disappear, just grew the same as D&M.



On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 10:21:42 AM PST, Scott Hawthorn <organfreak@...> wrote:


There is a little-known principle in electronics manufacturing called "Marantzing," named after the CEO of Marantz electronics. Mr. Marantz would walk the factory floor, looking at various procedures. He would ask a worker, "Why are you doing that?" Depending on the answer, he would reply, "Don't do that! It's not necessary." This is how Marantz became successful.


On 2/11/2023 10:08 AM, Wayne Tarling via groups.io wrote:
Finally came across an historical promotional video covering Hammond manufacturing information.

Everything "manual" ....no CNC.

Far too many manufacturing details actioned to be able to "survive" today's manufacturing costs.? ? Just imagine "testing every condenser".? ?No present-day "company owner" of anything would ever allow this kind of cost practice.? My experience is manufacturing. I know of no owner who embraced Quality.? They looked upon Quality as an unnecessary evil ...to be avoided or cut altogether ....and then see what happens.




Anyone know if there is a "Hammond expert" in the Vancouver, B.C., Canada, area?

I know there are organs around. They were sold by both "Eatons" (large store chain across Canada) and a private company locally, "Jerome's" ...going back to the 60's and 70's.? I suppose there may now be Suzuki-Hammond ...perhaps represented by a music store(?). And then "what would anyone actually know about Hammond organs"?


On a separate note, not to be "out-done" ....once a file is video file is opened in YouTube, associated video files pop-up ....and this video "History of the Leslie" appeared. I did not know this "history", so it was interesting and humorous to watch. Nothing about manufacturing ...just the story.
Re: HAMMOND - Manufacturing Video (& Leslie story)

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

There is a little-known principle in electronics manufacturing called "Marantzing," named after the CEO of Marantz electronics. Mr. Marantz would walk the factory floor, looking at various procedures. He would ask a worker, "Why are you doing that?" Depending on the answer, he would reply, "Don't do that! It's not necessary." This is how Marantz became successful.


On 2/11/2023 10:08 AM, Wayne Tarling via groups.io wrote:

Finally came across an historical promotional video covering Hammond manufacturing information.

Everything "manual" ....no CNC.

Far too many manufacturing details actioned to be able to "survive" today's manufacturing costs.? ? Just imagine "testing every condenser".? ?No present-day "company owner" of anything would ever allow this kind of cost practice.? My experience is manufacturing. I know of no owner who embraced Quality.? They looked upon Quality as an unnecessary evil ...to be avoided or cut altogether ....and then see what happens.




Anyone know if there is a "Hammond expert" in the Vancouver, B.C., Canada, area?

I know there are organs around. They were sold by both "Eatons" (large store chain across Canada) and a private company locally, "Jerome's" ...going back to the 60's and 70's.? I suppose there may now be Suzuki-Hammond ...perhaps represented by a music store(?). And then "what would anyone actually know about Hammond organs"?


On a separate note, not to be "out-done" ....once a file is video file is opened in YouTube, associated video files pop-up ....and this video "History of the Leslie" appeared. I did not know this "history", so it was interesting and humorous to watch. Nothing about manufacturing ...just the story.
HAMMOND - Manufacturing Video (& Leslie story)

 

Finally came across an historical promotional video covering Hammond manufacturing information.

Everything "manual" ....no CNC.

Far too many manufacturing details actioned to be able to "survive" today's manufacturing costs.? ? Just imagine "testing every condenser".? ?No present-day "company owner" of anything would ever allow this kind of cost practice.? My experience is manufacturing. I know of no owner who embraced Quality.? They looked upon Quality as an unnecessary evil ...to be avoided or cut altogether ....and then see what happens.




Anyone know if there is a "Hammond expert" in the Vancouver, B.C., Canada, area?

I know there are organs around. They were sold by both "Eatons" (large store chain across Canada) and a private company locally, "Jerome's" ...going back to the 60's and 70's.? I suppose there may now be Suzuki-Hammond ...perhaps represented by a music store(?). And then "what would anyone actually know about Hammond organs"?


On a separate note, not to be "out-done" ....once a file is video file is opened in YouTube, associated video files pop-up ....and this video "History of the Leslie" appeared. I did not know this "history", so it was interesting and humorous to watch. Nothing about manufacturing ...just the story.
Re: Tonewheel Generator - BEARINGS - LUBRICATIONS - UPDATE-10FEB23

 

A bit of a delay to collect together available materials that are needed by Turkey in aid of the catastrophic earthquakes and getting them to an emergency collection center.? Heart-wrenching to see children being pulled from the rubble. Very difficult scene to digest ...with the death toll only climbing as the bodies are found. It begins to become a recovery rather than a rescue.

Now back to the project, just a very quick update/summary - after my first email of 02FEB23, I have done a number of things specific to tone wheel generator lubrication.

1) exposed the tone wheel generator minimally (removed the acoustic blanket) and confirmed the bearing noise from the RHS (looking into the back) ....and directly lubricated four bearings in total, with a 30W Way Oil.? ?This stopped ALL "extra" noise in this one area.

2) added "copious amounts" of "Tone Wheel Generator Oil" (TWGO).? ?Exact amount much more than 20 or 30 "drops" in each funnel.

3) needed access to the bearings. Couldn't "see" or figure out how to get oil to each and every bearing with the TWG covered. Only way to do this was to disconnect 24 wires on the keyboard-side of the filter assembly laying on top of the TWG, and remove hold-down screws.? ?Exposed the tone wheels by carefully lifting the one side of the filter deck and paying very close attention to all the connected wiring on the opposite side. Eventually got it all exposed.? This now allowed a visual of the two oiling points, seeing the wicking material.? ?Very difficult to determine whether this was a "dry" or "wet" condition in comparison with what it should be ....keeping in mind I had already poured an amount of oil a couple of days previously ....and I did not "see" the condition of the wicking material at that time.? However, in consideration of Chris' comment using the term "evaporation" ...and considering the number of years the organ has sat idle, ..safe to say the initial condition of the wicking was "dry".? This leaves the question of "how much" lube to add to bring the entire system up to a "proper level"(?)

However, at this time I decided to add more oil to observe visually, how long it would take to not just fully "cover" the wick material, but also how long for the fresh oil to absorb/disappear into the wick material.

4)?I spent a few days of adding oil directly onto the wick material, and running the TWG to listen/monitor for any return of "noise". I added "less" oil than the initial dousing. Each time to observe the wick material after a day of oil application.? Each time, the wick material ended up looking the same, as if it was absorbing the oil "easily".

5) on 07FEB23, I decided to apply TWGO directly to each bearing. This was very straightforward. Just a matter of "seeing" that oil got to the shaft/bearing and got "wet". A little awkward on some bearings "under" adjacent shafts.? Upon completion, I powered up the TWG and immediately noticed a diminished noise level overall. Standing back and listening to the assembly, it was significantly quieter.? It would have been interesting to have measured the noise level before and after if I had a db meter.

6) The next step now was to return the filter assembly plate into place and reconnect the 24 wires.? Again, a very delicate process paying close attention to all the wiring on the opposite side and finding the correct position for the retaining/hold-down screws. All went well. All wires were still aligned with each soldering point. No labelling was needed. Laid acoustic mat back over TWG.? ?Moved the entire TWG assembly back into general position. Reconnected one plug ....everything back to original condition.

7) powered up to "observe" and "listen".? TWG now very surprisingly quiet overall.? Powered down, plugged in 147, powered back up. Once 147 warmed up, tried the manuals. Everything functioning nice.? 147 sounding a little loud with "constant power hum" underneath.? Powered down and plugged in the 77 Leslie.? Upon powering back up, a very loud "power hum" came on for about 8 seconds and then decreased considerably ...but still far too loud.? Something definitely not right.

Shut everything down and attached pedals. Powered up and had the very loud power hum again initially from the 77 Leslie, that decreased after 8 seconds.? Tried the pedals ....nothing.? Tried "re-positioning" ...nothing.? Tried moving out of the positioning holes and maneuvering the pedal location ...still nothing.

Had a look in the back for any "connectors" I may have forgotten about and saw nothing not connected. No wires are stressed anywhere, all free and relaxed. All wires positioned and connected board to board on the console tilting back panel where there are bass and percussion amplifier boards.
As I passed my led work light close over the area circled (photo attached) ...it picked up a huge power hum as I wave the trouble-light closed over this one area.

As previously mentioned, we owned a few large Hammonds long ago (C and A100). I know the pedals need to "engage"/align into the console.? I should say, when raising the volume/swell, I do hear a faint note being played through the 147.? I will do more investigating on this.? I could not "test" the organ before starting this work, because of the noisy bearings.? Perhaps I should have.

I will also point out I had an audio tech install the female plug into the X-77 console for the 147 .....30/40 years ago(?) ...as the existing extra plug in the console was for a second X-77 Leslie, which runs a few audio channels.? This was a mod to combine these channels into one for the 147.? I don't think this has anything to do with pedals, but I AM wondering about the "power hum" (?)

I will continue to investigate as best I can about the pedals. I think this is something very simple .....somewhere. Just have to find it. I don't have any electronic tools other than a multimeter ....so this is going to be a visual search.

If anyone has any ideas, feel free to advise.

Thanks
Wayne



On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 12:20:12 PM PST, Chris Clifton <clifton.christopher@...> wrote:


Yes, in UK, Wales to be precise, not England, and you've got the time difference spot on. As I said in my first reply, precise details of access depend on the model. On T and L series, it's easy. Tip the organ on one end and remove the fibre sound deadening mat and you can easily see inside the generator. You'll need to remove the internal Leslie on some T models, and if the organ has been oiled recently, it will run out of the end of the generator. Rather more difficult on organs where the generator is suspended on springs, M-series, B-3, C-3, A-100 etc. You have to unhook the generator from the springs and possibly disconnect some of the wiring to get enough slack to lift and tilt the generator. I haven't seen many X-77's, but if I remember, the tone generator is more like the L series.

On 03/02/2023 18:58, Wayne Tarling via groups.io wrote:
Thanks again Chris ....but now you have my curiousity.? ?You know what I have just done, but I have not explained what I had to do access all the bearings.? What did you have to do to access these bearings ...knowing this is an X-77?? ?We had a C series and then an A100, which I understand is very similar to the B series when considering only the tone wheel generator ....but I never had to dig into the back of any of these models, so I don't know how they compare with the X-77.? Is the X-77 a different beast specific to the tone wheel generator assembly?

You're in England are you not? ...Now 7:00PM ish?

On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 10:37:06 AM PST, Chris Clifton <clifton.christopher@...> wrote:


My understanding is that the original Hammond oil is light enough? to evaporate over a period of years. This will happen whether or not the organ is used, probably it would dry out quicker at higher temperatures, but that's the only environmental factor that would affect it. It could take weeks, or even longer for oil to make its way along the wicks if they have been allowed to completely dry out. I've never had the time to find out, it always made more sense on a service call to oil all the bearings directly, and leave the customer with a fully functioning organ. A customer would, quite rightly, be a little suspicious of a technician who just put oil in the funnels and left, saying, "It'll be fine in a month or so!".

On 03/02/2023 15:20, Wayne Tarling via groups.io wrote:
Thanks again Chris.

Once I am satisfied that the three culprits issue has been solved in some concrete manner, I will be doing exactly have you recommended ...oiling each and every bearing ...from both sides before buttoning up.? ?I have already added a significant qty of oil to the main oil gallery ..twice.? I don't know what "dry" is, so it is hard to know how much oil is needed.

There was a period of several years when the organ indeed did not get used.? Perhaps this is irrelevant when it comes to an "oiling regimen".(?)

I have also heard the about the incorrect oils an the effect is has on "wicking". I have not used anything else but Hammond lube ...so hoping this is not something I will have to contend with. However, the application of a lube directly on bearings should not cause any problems

I am still pursing a "liquid lubricating product" that is designed to address worn bearings.? As it is now, I have successfully eliminated the noise in the bearings, running the organ for several-hour periods, off for several hours, and powering back up.? ?So I am confident I have determined the source of the problem ...I'm yet to be convinced of a "permanent fix".

If anyone knows of a lubricating product that they know would/might be ideal for this application, please feel to jump in.? These organs aren't getting old ...they ARE old and this mechanical part is what Hammond is all about ...along with the Leslie mechanicals.? ? I am now in touch with "Permatex", but I am dealing with someone who may be knowledgeable about lubrication, but not so much application.

If I do find a product for "worn bearings" that would be good for a "repair" of noisy bearings, I will put a post out with some detail of what I have found, for others to evaluate and determine if it is something they could use.



On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 12:26:31 AM PST, Chris Clifton <clifton.christopher@...> wrote:


Where I have come across this in the past, it's always been an organ that has been neglected, not oiled in the regular way for several years. Once the bearings have been oiled, I usually just put a drop on every bearing in the generator, I've always found that normal regular oiling has prevented any recurrence, in some cases, I have been returning to the same organ annually for decades, and not had any further dry bearing problems. I have seen suggestions that using a solvent such as lighter fluid will dissolve waxy residues left in oiling wicks by unsuitable oils, but never had cause to try this myself.

On 02/02/2023 23:40, Wayne Tarling via groups.io wrote:
Thanks for this Chris

You pretty well nailed exactly what I had done.? I did not want to mention this for fear anything said might influence anyone to not respond if they had a different way of tackling this problem.

The organ is the X-77 with both the matching Leslie and a 147.

Trying to isolate an area where the "noise" was coming from, was only guessing when sitting on the bench.? When looking at the assembly from the back, with the top "plate" attached, it was pretty well impossible to see let alone try to figure out a way to identify the culprit bearing(s). The only "easy" way to access under this plate was to cut each of the wires on the "inner side" of the top plate (the side toward the keyboard).? There was only the one lead on this side, on each "bank" going to either a cap or cap/coil assy ....so 24 in all.? This allowed me to lift the one side of the plate to expose the entire tonewheel assembly.

Then using an extension cord (to control power on/off from the back), very quick connection to power just to initiate some "spinning", I could not only immediately confirm the noise coming from the RHS (I'm now at the back looking forward), but immediately straight to the "area" ....as the spin slowed.? I only needed/wanted a slow spin and then coast to a stop, rather than the whole tone wheel area screaming/squealing and noise coming from all over the place ...because the noise can simply transmit down the culprit shaft(s) as well.

I could not tell "which" bearing(s) were making the noise.

Because the bearing noise is likely due to a "dry" condition and also potentially now an over-size or obround shaft/bearing clearance condition, my preference was to use a heavier weight, more viscous oil rather than the Hammond oil.? My understanding is the Hammond oil is designed to used for "wicking". Additives like waxes would eventually hinder the wicking? ....but if applying directly to a bearing, this is not a concern.

I used the most viscous lube I have which is a 30W Way Oil ...which is design to "stick" to/on "ways" found on machine tools (lathes, mills, etc). I used a syringe to apply directly on one bearing at a time ("design of experiments" principles).? I started on the end bearing closest to me, and applied a little lube on both sides (ends) of the bearing and quickly applied power and immediately disconnected ..again, just to get the tonewheel assy turning to make the noise.? This first bearing changed nothing.? This is a "lay shaft", so the opposite end then needed the same treatment. Again, a quick/short power up, changed nothing.

The "next" reachable shaft in this "first bank" was on the opposite side (toward the keys), again, a lay shaft.? When repeating the procedure, I immediately identified a change to the noise from the outside bearing. It was significantly reduced.? I then repeated on the bearing on the opposite end of this lay shaft and the noise all but disappeared.? I had found the primary culprit bearings as being the lay shaft at the opposite end of the drive motor.

However, not ALL the noise was gone. As it turned out, the next bearing, furthest away from oiling point, was on the drive shaft.? An application of oil on this one bearing and ALL the noise was gone.

I have since let the organ run for several hours and turned off to allow it to cool, and repeated this few times now.? There has been one instance where a very faint noise has started, which prompted me to add some lube to all three bearings ...and herein lies the problem of potentially needed to continually need to add lubrication to these three bearings.? ?If this is what needs to be done, then I will design some kind of system that will put lube directly on to these three bearings when needed.

At one point I looked at the entire assy and recognized this is NOT a "friendly" assy to work with. As you pointed out, Hammond would have jigs and fixtures along with a very elaborate assy instruction.

What I am wondering is if there is a lubrication product that is designed to "fill" voids or "over-size" conditions, that might offer some form of a more permanent "repair" to worn bearings. This would be "shaft-to-bearing" fit.? Something that might be perhaps "anerobic"?? ? ? Would anyone know if there is such a product available specifically for worn bearings?? ?I have looked and found different products, but I can't tell if they are for this kind of "repair" or they are meant to be applied to the outside (OD) of the bearing only.

I have used a 30W lubrication with success.? I could easily consider 50W lube as well ...but my quest is a permanent fix.

Anyone have any other ideas?

Thanks
Wayne

PS - now that the tone wheel assembly is fully exposed, I will be applying oil to every bearing from both sides. If may not be necessary, but there should be no harm to doing this ....unless someone knows otherwise.? I look forward to any comments with previous experience/successes.




On Thursday, February 2, 2023 at 11:10:11 AM PST, Chris Clifton <clifton.christopher@...> wrote:


Although I've come across several instances of noisy, and even seized bearings, these have all responded to lubrication. Often the best way to get oil where it's needed without waiting for it to make its way through the oiling wicks is to use a syringe to apply a drop of oil directly to each bearing. Depending on the model of organ it may be necessary to disconnect some of the wiring to the generator to be able to move the generator to get access to the underside.

I doubt that there is any practicable way of replacing bearings, the amount of work involved in dismantling, and more importantly reassembling a generator would make it difficult if not impossible to replace bearings. Indeed, I'm by no means certain that it's even possible to reassemble a generator without the original factory tooling and jigs. I'd consider any tone wheel generator that had bearings so badly worn as to require replacement as beyond economic repair

On 02/02/2023 18:07, Wayne Tarling via groups.io wrote:.
Hello Community

I haven't heard much about "bearing problems" in any of the discussions. A few messages about Hammond lube (which I have lots of), but nothing about "failed bearings".

Considering there are some 144 or more bearings, has anyone had a problem with a "failed" bearing?? If so, is there any easy "fix" per se.

I won't go into a lot of detail yet, particularly if there is indeed an easy fix.

If more information is needed, I can certainly provide a lot more detail of what the problem is and what I have done ....so far.

Regards to all.
Wayne

CONSOLE BACK DOOR - circuit boards -marked.jpg

Re: Tonewheel Generator - BEARINGS - LUBRICATIONS

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Newport near Cardiff Cliff! So we are neighbours! Fell free to get in touch directly. It¡¯s always nice to meet other enthusiasts and compare notes!

On 6 Feb 2023, at 10:35, csrote@... wrote:

Hello Jonathon,
Another one?? Amazing!
Which Newport?
Newport (on the River Usk), next to Cardiff?
or
Newport in far West Wales, near Fishguard?
Cliff in Cardiff
Re: Tonewheel Generator - BEARINGS - LUBRICATIONS

 

Hello Jonathon,
Another one?? Amazing!
Which Newport?
Newport (on the River Usk), next to Cardiff?
or
Newport in far West Wales, near Fishguard?
Cliff in Cardiff
Re: Tonewheel Generator - BEARINGS - LUBRICATIONS

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Don¡¯t know if I am replying to the correct party, but here are some facts

1/Do NOT use a heavy oil

2/ the bearings most likely have not been damaged. In 50 years I have not yet encountered an out of round bearing.

3/ use AMSOIL MP to free or prelube a noisy bearing followed by Hammond oil. Other oils WILL cause serious problems down the road.

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Wayne Tarling via groups.io
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 4:13 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [hammondzone] Tonewheel Generator - BEARINGS - LUBRICATIONS

?

Thanks for the feedback Scott, but I had to read your response a few times to try to understand everything you responded with.

?

The first point is the "30W" oil. I think this was my comment, but no where did I state it would "do no harm" in the context that you have stated.? I stated that applying this oil was done directly on a bearing ...not into the oil gallery.? ?I also very clearly stated that there was a "noise" and I had to determine WHERE this noise was coming from. My methodology put me immediately to one area ...which was very successful in that the application of oil on a "first" bearing had no affect, and on a "second" bearing, IMMEDIATELY had a +ve affect in that the noise was immediately less.? This was on a lay shaft ...meaning the opposite end might need some oil as well ...which I applied and had very little affect.? ?So the "next" bearing possibly needing lube was on the drive shaft ...which once again ....when lube was added, IMMEDIATELY quieted the remaining noise.? Doing the grade one arithmetic, means there were TWO bearings that needed lube.

?

Your comment seems to ignore the information provided ....which you can certainly re-read if you want ...or don't want.

?

It sounds like you are schooled somewhat on Hammond when you mention "series-3 generators" for some reason.? I suppose there are some people who know what you are talking about ...but I certainly don't ....nor the IIRC.? I have no idea what the full comment "?the tone generators provided in the X-77 have no bearing (ha!) at all to the series-3 generators."

?

I know all about Hammond oil.? ?I know a lot of people reference "turbine oil". I would be very interested in where this information comes from because I have looked up the details of this specific oil and no where is there any official mention of turbine oil.? Once again, the information below is pretty comprehensive and complete, but it would appear you haven't read any of it or chose to ignore most of it.

?

So after reading through your entire comment, looking for any add'l information that could be helpful ....it would appear, there is nothing.

?

Have a nice day.

?

Note to Gail.? This is the kind of support no one needs.

?

?

?

On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 11:19:52 AM PST, Scott Hawthorn <organfreak@...> wrote:

?

?

I'm very late to this party and have not been keeping up. I quit in horror when I read that somebody was oiling the bearings with 30W oil and then stating that it would do no harm.

But no, Wayne, the tone generators provided in the X-77 have no bearing (ha!) at all to the series-3 generators. IIRC, that comes with only an octave's-worth of tone wheels, which are then divided-down electronically.

The main point of Hammond oil is that it is a pure TURBINE oil that contains no additives that might clog the oiling threads. And yes, naphtha (referred to here as lighter fluid) is usually the solvent-of-choice for freeing up stuck bearings in these organs. It is clean and quick!

On 2/3/2023 11:05 AM, Wayne Tarling via groups.io wrote:

I should add, when I said we had a C and A100 ...that was back in the 60's.

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On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 10:58:38 AM PST, Wayne Tarling via groups.io <tarlingw@...> wrote:

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Thanks again Chris ....but now you have my curiousity.? ?You know what I have just done, but I have not explained what I had to do access all the bearings.? What did you have to do to access these bearings ...knowing this is an X-77?? ?We had a C series and then an A100, which I understand is very similar to the B series when considering only the tone wheel generator ....but I never had to dig into the back of any of these models, so I don't know how they compare with the X-77.? Is the X-77 a different beast specific to the tone wheel generator assembly?

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You're in England are you not? ...Now 7:00PM ish?

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On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 10:37:06 AM PST, Chris Clifton <clifton.christopher@...> wrote:

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My understanding is that the original Hammond oil is light enough? to evaporate over a period of years. This will happen whether or not the organ is used, probably it would dry out quicker at higher temperatures, but that's the only environmental factor that would affect it. It could take weeks, or even longer for oil to make its way along the wicks if they have been allowed to completely dry out. I've never had the time to find out, it always made more sense on a service call to oil all the bearings directly, and leave the customer with a fully functioning organ. A customer would, quite rightly, be a little suspicious of a technician who just put oil in the funnels and left, saying, "It'll be fine in a month or so!".

On 03/02/2023 15:20, Wayne Tarling via groups.io wrote:

Thanks again Chris.

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Once I am satisfied that the three culprits issue has been solved in some concrete manner, I will be doing exactly have you recommended ...oiling each and every bearing ...from both sides before buttoning up.? ?I have already added a significant qty of oil to the main oil gallery ..twice.? I don't know what "dry" is, so it is hard to know how much oil is needed.

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There was a period of several years when the organ indeed did not get used.? Perhaps this is irrelevant when it comes to an "oiling regimen".(?)

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I have also heard the about the incorrect oils an the effect is has on "wicking". I have not used anything else but Hammond lube ...so hoping this is not something I will have to contend with. However, the application of a lube directly on bearings should not cause any problems

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I am still pursing a "liquid lubricating product" that is designed to address worn bearings.? As it is now, I have successfully eliminated the noise in the bearings, running the organ for several-hour periods, off for several hours, and powering back up.? ?So I am confident I have determined the source of the problem ...I'm yet to be convinced of a "permanent fix".

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If anyone knows of a lubricating product that they know would/might be ideal for this application, please feel to jump in.? These organs aren't getting old ...they ARE old and this mechanical part is what Hammond is all about ...along with the Leslie mechanicals.? ? I am now in touch with "Permatex", but I am dealing with someone who may be knowledgeable about lubrication, but not so much application.

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If I do find a product for "worn bearings" that would be good for a "repair" of noisy bearings, I will put a post out with some detail of what I have found, for others to evaluate and determine if it is something they could use.

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On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 12:26:31 AM PST, Chris Clifton <clifton.christopher@...> wrote:

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Where I have come across this in the past, it's always been an organ that has been neglected, not oiled in the regular way for several years. Once the bearings have been oiled, I usually just put a drop on every bearing in the generator, I've always found that normal regular oiling has prevented any recurrence, in some cases, I have been returning to the same organ annually for decades, and not had any further dry bearing problems. I have seen suggestions that using a solvent such as lighter fluid will dissolve waxy residues left in oiling wicks by unsuitable oils, but never had cause to try this myself.

On 02/02/2023 23:40, Wayne Tarling via groups.io wrote:

Thanks for this Chris

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You pretty well nailed exactly what I had done.? I did not want to mention this for fear anything said might influence anyone to not respond if they had a different way of tackling this problem.

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The organ is the X-77 with both the matching Leslie and a 147.

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Trying to isolate an area where the "noise" was coming from, was only guessing when sitting on the bench.? When looking at the assembly from the back, with the top "plate" attached, it was pretty well impossible to see let alone try to figure out a way to identify the culprit bearing(s). The only "easy" way to access under this plate was to cut each of the wires on the "inner side" of the top plate (the side toward the keyboard).? There was only the one lead on this side, on each "bank" going to either a cap or cap/coil assy ....so 24 in all.? This allowed me to lift the one side of the plate to expose the entire tonewheel assembly.

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Then using an extension cord (to control power on/off from the back), very quick connection to power just to initiate some "spinning", I could not only immediately confirm the noise coming from the RHS (I'm now at the back looking forward), but immediately straight to the "area" ....as the spin slowed.? I only needed/wanted a slow spin and then coast to a stop, rather than the whole tone wheel area screaming/squealing and noise coming from all over the place ...because the noise can simply transmit down the culprit shaft(s) as well.

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I could not tell "which" bearing(s) were making the noise.

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Because the bearing noise is likely due to a "dry" condition and also potentially now an over-size or obround shaft/bearing clearance condition, my preference was to use a heavier weight, more viscous oil rather than the Hammond oil.? My understanding is the Hammond oil is designed to used for "wicking". Additives like waxes would eventually hinder the wicking? ....but if applying directly to a bearing, this is not a concern.

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I used the most viscous lube I have which is a 30W Way Oil ...which is design to "stick" to/on "ways" found on machine tools (lathes, mills, etc). I used a syringe to apply directly on one bearing at a time ("design of experiments" principles).? I started on the end bearing closest to me, and applied a little lube on both sides (ends) of the bearing and quickly applied power and immediately disconnected ..again, just to get the tonewheel assy turning to make the noise.? This first bearing changed nothing.? This is a "lay shaft", so the opposite end then needed the same treatment. Again, a quick/short power up, changed nothing.

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The "next" reachable shaft in this "first bank" was on the opposite side (toward the keys), again, a lay shaft.? When repeating the procedure, I immediately identified a change to the noise from the outside bearing. It was significantly reduced.? I then repeated on the bearing on the opposite end of this lay shaft and the noise all but disappeared.? I had found the primary culprit bearings as being the lay shaft at the opposite end of the drive motor.

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However, not ALL the noise was gone. As it turned out, the next bearing, furthest away from oiling point, was on the drive shaft.? An application of oil on this one bearing and ALL the noise was gone.

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I have since let the organ run for several hours and turned off to allow it to cool, and repeated this few times now.? There has been one instance where a very faint noise has started, which prompted me to add some lube to all three bearings ...and herein lies the problem of potentially needed to continually need to add lubrication to these three bearings.? ?If this is what needs to be done, then I will design some kind of system that will put lube directly on to these three bearings when needed.

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At one point I looked at the entire assy and recognized this is NOT a "friendly" assy to work with. As you pointed out, Hammond would have jigs and fixtures along with a very elaborate assy instruction.

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What I am wondering is if there is a lubrication product that is designed to "fill" voids or "over-size" conditions, that might offer some form of a more permanent "repair" to worn bearings. This would be "shaft-to-bearing" fit.? Something that might be perhaps "anerobic"?? ? ? Would anyone know if there is such a product available specifically for worn bearings?? ?I have looked and found different products, but I can't tell if they are for this kind of "repair" or they are meant to be applied to the outside (OD) of the bearing only.

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I have used a 30W lubrication with success.? I could easily consider 50W lube as well ...but my quest is a permanent fix.

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Anyone have any other ideas?

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Thanks

Wayne

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PS - now that the tone wheel assembly is fully exposed, I will be applying oil to every bearing from both sides. If may not be necessary, but there should be no harm to doing this ....unless someone knows otherwise.? I look forward to any comments with previous experience/successes.

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On Thursday, February 2, 2023 at 11:10:11 AM PST, Chris Clifton <clifton.christopher@...> wrote:

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Although I've come across several instances of noisy, and even seized bearings, these have all responded to lubrication. Often the best way to get oil where it's needed without waiting for it to make its way through the oiling wicks is to use a syringe to apply a drop of oil directly to each bearing. Depending on the model of organ it may be necessary to disconnect some of the wiring to the generator to be able to move the generator to get access to the underside.

I doubt that there is any practicable way of replacing bearings, the amount of work involved in dismantling, and more importantly reassembling a generator would make it difficult if not impossible to replace bearings. Indeed, I'm by no means certain that it's even possible to reassemble a generator without the original factory tooling and jigs. I'd consider any tone wheel generator that had bearings so badly worn as to require replacement as beyond economic repair

On 02/02/2023 18:07, Wayne Tarling via groups.io wrote:.

Hello Community

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I haven't heard much about "bearing problems" in any of the discussions. A few messages about Hammond lube (which I have lots of), but nothing about "failed bearings".

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Considering there are some 144 or more bearings, has anyone had a problem with a "failed" bearing?? If so, is there any easy "fix" per se.

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I won't go into a lot of detail yet, particularly if there is indeed an easy fix.

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If more information is needed, I can certainly provide a lot more detail of what the problem is and what I have done ....so far.

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Regards to all.

Wayne
Re: Tonewheel Generator - BEARINGS - LUBRICATIONS

 

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I¡¯m another one in Wales with a few Hammonds! I¡¯m a sucker for rescuing them from certain death!

I couldn¡¯t manage without Chris though! He¡¯s a magician!

Jonathan in Newport!

On 4 Feb 2023, at 10:00, Chris Clifton <clifton.christopher@...> wrote:

I've lived in Llanelli for 30+ years. Grew up in Cardiff. I'll be watching the rugby this afternoon.

On 04/02/2023 09:29, csrote@... wrote:
Hello Chris,
Didn't know there was another Hammond enthusiast in Wales.? Where are you located?
Have never been active on Hammondzone, but was very active on HamTech at various times over the years while I was still in the US.
Hwyl Fawr,
Cliff in Cardiff

Re: Tonewheel Generator - BEARINGS - LUBRICATIONS

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

I've lived in Llanelli for 30+ years. Grew up in Cardiff. I'll be watching the rugby this afternoon.

On 04/02/2023 09:29, csrote@... wrote:

Hello Chris,
Didn't know there was another Hammond enthusiast in Wales.? Where are you located?
Have never been active on Hammondzone, but was very active on HamTech at various times over the years while I was still in the US.
Hwyl Fawr,
Cliff in Cardiff

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