Electrical Problem with CF731 Pro
开云体育Greg, How do you revive it once no machine starts? Did the selector switch come with a new knob? Imran On Jan 19, 2021, at 9:45 PM, goldinarch@... wrote:
?Hello.? I've been experiencing exasperating problems with the start function on my machine. I can now probably write a book about this, but suffice to say that when the selector switch is set to Table Saw, the machine fails to start.? I've worked quite a bit with Phillip Dingus at Felder.? He's been a champion, but we've failed to figure out what is happening.? I sprung for a whopping $700 to buy a new selector switch, which I meticulously installed, terminal for terminal, wire for wire, with zero effect.? The machine will start when set to J/P and Shaper, in forward or reverse, but any time the selector passes through TDC (which is the Table Saw), no machine will subsequently start.? I am wondering if there is anyone in the group who is sufficiently wise in the ways of electrical engineering to help me through the wiring diagram to perhaps pinpoint what is going wrong.? I have also traced every single wire in the machine, and compared the "as-is" wiring to the wiring diagram furnished by Felder.? There are some anomalies, but the machine worked flawlessly as wired for 19-1/2 years, so...go figure.? Any ideas of where to turn?? Thanks!? Greg
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开云体育Hi Greg, Thanks for the details. I do not know the internal design of selector switch so thought may be the old knob is slipping around TDC and the contacts are mid movement position therefore nothing starts. This likely is not the case since the full assembly had been replaced. Like Brian mentioned, on/off switches can go along with the relay that turns the motors on but that was not my first thought based upon what you shared. My thought is that you have a short in saw circuit and therefore as soon as it is selected an internal breaker is activated which resets upon power down/up. I would disconnect saw from selector switch and see if anything changes. Look into Annu’s recent posts. He shares how he was able to easily isolate all motors. Hope this helps. Imran? On Jan 20, 2021, at 10:48 AM, Greg Goldin <goldinarch@...> wrote:
? Hi Imran, I power off the main switch, then move the selector dial to the machines that do start, and then power back on.? So long as the selector remains on either J/P (or horizontal mortiser) or Shaper (forward or reverse), it starts and runs fine, and I can toggle between forward/reverse in that setting.? Second it goes through TDC/table saw, it's kaput. And, yes, the selector came with a new knob. That was probably $695 for the knob, $5 for the selector! What would the knob have to do with this?? By the way, changing the selector switch changed nothing.? Same fail, different switch. Thanks! Greg On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 6:56 PM imranindiana via <imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
-- Rather the Ice Than Their Way --Eric the Red |
开云体育Hi Greg, When you plugged shaper motor into table saw position, was the outcome identical to what happens with original wiring and selecting table saw? That is, you have to power cycle to restart? Imran On Jan 20, 2021, at 4:28 PM, Greg Goldin <goldinarch@...> wrote:
?Hi Imran, Thanks for your thoughts.? I have disconnected what I presumed was the offending motor.? Made no difference.? I have checked resistance across all three fields of each 3 phase motor, 1-2, 1-3, 2-3.? Everything there is normal, no red flags.? I attached the Table Saw motor to the Shaper position on the selector switch, and that motor runs just fine from that position on the selector. I then wired the Shaper motor to the Table Saw position on the selector switch and, predictably, it would not start.? The Shaper motor works fine connected to its regular location on the switch. I have also checked continuity on every switch on the machine.? All three safety micro switches, all three stop buttons, all three start buttons.? No failures indicated, at least in continuity tests. I have made videos of each motor starting and stopping, focusing on the two relays which sequence with the Inverter.? The progression goes: Push start button, K-1 closes (a pair of paddles are visible in a window), the Inverter sends a start signal which closes K-2 (visible by a latch the pulls in when closed and audible from a loud click that latch makes), motor spins.? Push stop, K-2 instantly closes, K-1 remains open until the Inverter decides braking is complete, and then K-1 closes My next move is to remove the Table Saw stop button from the equation.? Since these are wired in parallel, taking it out might answer the question of whether it is at fault. Until then, I'll look at Annu's posts. Thanks, Greg |
开云体育Greg, To me, in way of prioritizing the trouble shooting, I would work on the table saw motor cabling. To be precise, the part between selector switch and the disconnect where you isolated the different motors. Your trouble shooting points to this section of wiring having the problem and it moves from table saw motor to shaper motor and both motors are fine otherwise. Imran? On Jan 20, 2021, at 6:11 PM, Greg Goldin <goldinarch@...> wrote:
?Hi Imran, First, thanks again for thinking about this crazy situation. Yes!? Same exact outcome:? Shaper motor attached to Table Saw selector terminals fails to start, and moving the selector off that to either J/P or Shaper (now Table Saw) and neither will start.? Must first be sure selector is not on the TDC selection, and then power off, power on.? Then either of the two motors will work so long as I do not move the selector again through the TDC selection. Any thoughts? Was just now about to remove the Table Saw stop button from the equation, in two ways.? First, entirely disconnected so the wires are dangling free; second connect the two wires to mimic N/C which is the regular condition of the stop switch(es).? I will report back shortly. Greg |
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On Jan 20, 2021, at 6:28 PM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? Greg, To me, in way of prioritizing the trouble shooting, I would work on the table saw motor cabling. To be precise, the part between selector switch and the disconnect where you isolated the different motors. Your trouble shooting points to this section of wiring having the problem and it moves from table saw motor to shaper motor and both motors are fine otherwise. Imran? On Jan 20, 2021, at 6:11 PM, Greg Goldin <goldinarch@...> wrote: ?Hi Imran, First, thanks again for thinking about this crazy situation. Yes!? Same exact outcome:? Shaper motor attached to Table Saw selector terminals fails to start, and moving the selector off that to either J/P or Shaper (now Table Saw) and neither will start.? Must first be sure selector is not on the TDC selection, and then power off, power on.? Then either of the two motors will work so long as I do not move the selector again through the TDC selection. Any thoughts? Was just now about to remove the Table Saw stop button from the equation, in two ways.? First, entirely disconnected so the wires are dangling free; second connect the two wires to mimic N/C which is the regular condition of the stop switch(es).? I will report back shortly. Greg |
开云体育Greg, From what I gather, for each motor circuit, there is a connector between the selector switch and the motor. This is where you plugged shaper motor into table saw cable from selector switch and it did not work. Similarly, tablesaw motor plugged into the shaper cable from selector switch worked. To me this shows that the issue is between the selector switch and the cable connector on the table saw circuit. Check the connector to ensure pins are not bent and shorted (I do not know if this is possible as I do not know what the inside of this connector looks like). Check each wire from this connector, all the way to the selector switch to make sure wire insulation is not compromised resulting in a short between wires or between a wire and machine chassis. I am assuming there is nothing but wire between selector switch and this connector. If there is another component (relay, etc) then that needs to be checked out. Imran On Jan 20, 2021, at 10:38 PM, Greg Goldin <goldinarch@...> wrote:
?Hi Imran, What is the connector? I took the wires off the stop switches for my table saw (the factory installed switch and one I installed to operate the saw from the sliding table).? With the wires dangling, as expected, the entire machine would not operate.? It was as if the a stop button was N/O.? I then tied the wires together, avoiding the switches, and, just as expected, the same malfunction occurred.? I did notice, however, that the K-2 relay closed.? But K-1, which is downstream and latches to send the 3 phases to the motors, did not close, so no action on that motor. Will the strangeness ever cease. Tomorrow, time permitting, I'm going to review every wire that I diagrammed to see where the "as is" diverges from the Felder wiring diagram. Thanks again, Imran! |
开云体育Greg, For switches, just use the continuity test. Each ON and OFF switch has a redundant terminal on my machine. Just put the meter probes in the unused holes and look for short (red NC) or open (green NO). Also check for state change when the button is pushed. Per my other msg, switch fault is not my first choice because they have gone bad on mine (start sw) but it does not create the situation where power cycle is needed. Imran On Jan 20, 2021, at 10:38 PM, Greg Goldin <goldinarch@...> wrote:
?Hi Imran, What is the connector? I took the wires off the stop switches for my table saw (the factory installed switch and one I installed to operate the saw from the sliding table).? With the wires dangling, as expected, the entire machine would not operate.? It was as if the a stop button was N/O.? I then tied the wires together, avoiding the switches, and, just as expected, the same malfunction occurred.? I did notice, however, that the K-2 relay closed.? But K-1, which is downstream and latches to send the 3 phases to the motors, did not close, so no action on that motor. Will the strangeness ever cease. Tomorrow, time permitting, I'm going to review every wire that I diagrammed to see where the "as is" diverges from the Felder wiring diagram. Thanks again, Imran! |
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On Jan 20, 2021, at 11:19 PM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? Greg, From what I gather, for each motor circuit, there is a connector between the selector switch and the motor. This is where you plugged shaper motor into table saw cable from selector switch and it did not work. Similarly, tablesaw motor plugged into the shaper cable from selector switch worked. To me this shows that the issue is between the selector switch and the cable connector on the table saw circuit. Check the connector to ensure pins are not bent and shorted (I do not know if this is possible as I do not know what the inside of this connector looks like). Check each wire from this connector, all the way to the selector switch to make sure wire insulation is not compromised resulting in a short between wires or between a wire and machine chassis. I am assuming there is nothing but wire between selector switch and this connector. If there is another component (relay, etc) then that needs to be checked out. Imran On Jan 20, 2021, at 10:38 PM, Greg Goldin <goldinarch@...> wrote: ?Hi Imran,
What is the connector? I took the wires off the stop switches for my table saw (the factory installed switch and one I installed to operate the saw from the sliding table).? With the wires dangling, as expected, the entire machine would not operate.? It was as if the a stop button was N/O.? I then tied the wires together, avoiding the switches, and, just as expected, the same malfunction occurred.? I did notice, however, that the K-2 relay closed.? But K-1, which is downstream and latches to send the 3 phases to the motors, did not close, so no action on that motor. Will the strangeness ever cease. Tomorrow, time permitting, I'm going to review every wire that I diagrammed to see where the "as is" diverges from the Felder wiring diagram. Thanks again, Imran! |
开云体育My 2009 KF700SP has separate start circuit relays for the saw and shaper.? Sounds like the saw relay is bad.? You can jumper the relay to test the rest.? I am assuming the wiring is find unless the wiring looks bad ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of imranindiana via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2021 9:26 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [FOG] Electrical Problem with CF731 Pro ? Greg, ? For switches, just use the continuity test. Each ON and OFF switch has a redundant terminal on my machine. Just put the meter probes in the unused holes and look for short (red NC) or open (green NO). Also check for state change when the button is pushed. ? Per my other msg, switch fault is not my first choice because they have gone bad on mine (start sw) but it does not create the situation where power cycle is needed. ? Imran
?Hi Imran, |
imran
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