I would like to thank everyone of you for all the information you have provide me . I have read every post very carefully and ended up with 6 pages of notes and hundred of questions. I have learned more her in 24 hours than i have in the last three months. I have a very hard time with details i get out of salesmen, I do know their final agenda. ?
So if you don't mind im going to ask you guys & you Julie a lot of questions.
Im going to work with one machine at a time so my pea sized brain does not explode and take more notes from you.
so before i start with my first machine i have generic things to mention.
for the one that said it will be fun spending someone else s money or something along that line, Please do! you all have hundred times or more knowledge thank I do. This is a one time thing for me and i will make mistakes, I am not going to be able and just run out and drop another 20k on a machine of I make that mistake.
my space:2800 Sf about 300 sf of office i really don't need Ill use one room for old stile drafting table and to set up a space for my CAD system the othe office i guess will be a crash pad when i cant get home because of snow and the rest I guess to store samples and finished product. what i like about the building is i have the high ceilings which is very hard to get up here
My Budget Its not unlimited. I have saved for over ten years for this day, that said I have 200k for this project not including the building.
That is for everything from the big tools down to the countersink bits. my girlfriend was not very happy when i told her100k if she findsout its twice that? will probably be living in my shop.
So my first question
Felder:I like Felder i think they make a good machine for the price, a little more machine than i really need but if i actually ever make anything to sell and sell it i want to have a little more machine than i think I need.
I plan to have Felder deliver install/set up and run the machines at my shop. althoiugh the extra cost i think it is well worth it for me buying machines i am not familer with. I am planing on doing a service contract with Felder yearly or bi yearly () the say they offer it but i don't know the costs yet) My biggest concern is service and parts and the timeline.... One of you mention this
and one last thing for now before I bore you to death
Electronics They scare me, I know they have come along way and are a lot better but in my building which will not be conditioned all the time can get in the mid teens in the winter. Felder doesn't seen there is a big issue but I do Thats my first and biggest question from you that work in areas that get this cold. I have started to look in to a systen to heat the machines? internally but that wont do any good for the cnc data screens.
Thank you all
Glen
and its 19 deg F tonight
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: David Davies myfinishingtouch@... [felder-woodworking]
To: felder-woodworking
Sent: Wed, Nov 30, 2016 3:27 pm
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Hello all,
?
Glen,
? Something you'll want to consider is support...this forum is an excellent source of support for Felder equipment.? Felder may or may not monitor the forum but if you're having issues with your machines this forum can get you answers.
Dave
|
Re: Northfields Factory Tour
Pretty interesting lineup of heavy duty equipment, wish I had room for the 36" bandsaw, ?24" jointer and 37" planer. Thanx for the youtube.
On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 6:41 PM, scharmac@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
?
While looking for something else I happen to stumble onto this video of a tour of the Northfield factory.? Pretty interesting and perhaps the last of the made in USA woodworking equipment.? Enjoy.
I hope this link works.? If not try a Youtube search for Northfield factory tour.
Scott
|
While looking for something else I happen to stumble onto this video of a tour of the Northfield factory. ?Pretty interesting and perhaps the last of the made in USA woodworking equipment. ?Enjoy.
I hope this link works. ?If not try a Youtube search for Northfield factory tour.
Scott
|
Glen, ? Something you'll want to consider is support...this forum is an excellent source of support for Felder equipment.? Felder may or may not monitor the forum but if you're having issues with your machines this forum can get you answers. Dave
On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 6:46 AM, Joe dohertyj@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
?
Glen,
Don't get obsessed with buying the best machine available. ?
It does not make sense to buy a Martin t27 shaper if you are a hobbyist.? You will be paying for features you will not take advantage of.? If you have a shop with multiple employees running long hours you get the maximum benefit from a very heavy duty large machine.? Some of the value of Martin is in the ability to run hour after hour day after day, if you run your shaper a few hours a week you may not need the extra robustness. That said, if I had the space and money was not an issue I would love to have a t27 with tenoning table powered power feeder arm.
One nice thing about heavy robust machines that most here will hopefully never learn about first hand is that a heavy machine is much better when something goes wrong.? If you are spinning a heavy cutter on a shaper and a knife breaks resulting is an unbalanced spinning object a light machine which worked well with a balanced cutter may start oscillating and the operator will have less time to shut everything down before something fails.? While it is possible to spin a 40 pound 12" cutter on a single trunnion f700z it is much better to use a Profile 45 in the event that something goes wrong for safety reasons.
I took delivery of a Profile 45z X-motion in March to replace my f700z and am very happy.? I especially love X-motion control.? Also, recognize that machines with elaborate control systems may have a limited lifespan.? What do you do when your touch screen goes out on a 10 year old machine?? Look at the value of used CNC routers to see what I mean.? I look for machines with generic modular control system ?components.? Felder uses such parts and has been good at helping me repair older Felder machines.? In 2009 Felder's service department provided updated electronics for my year 2000 cf731p combination machine.? It now has modular electronics that can be easily repaired. ?
Joe in New Orleans?
?
I’ll second Dave Kumm’s comment that there isn’t a single brand that is best-in-breed at everything. ? My shop is mostly Felder (Kappa 400 xMotion, Profil 45, Dual 51, RL160), and I have owned various Felder machines since I slipped into the deep end of the pool in 2001. ? Felder isn’t perfect - no company is. ? I have also been a Martin dealer.? While I respect Martin's in-house machines, they are not without their own quirks, and some of their machines are made by other companies. ? No company covers the equipment territory with all best-in-breed machines. ? Even Marin has disgruntled customers. ? ?
If you have NO BUDGET CONSTRAINTS, you can do better than Felder in almost every category, but not from a single supplier IMO. ? If, on the other hand, you’re looking for exceptional value from a single source, Felder is a great choice for several categories of equipment. ? Felder is also a progressive growth company, comes up with terrific innovations from time to time (Silent Power cutterhead on their J/P’s to name just one), and invests heavily in R&D and manufacturing. ? In contrast, the Martin factory looks like a re-tooled tank manufacturing facility from WWII, and they have had their share management turmoil the past 10 years. ? I don’t want to dis Martin, they do make great machines, but they come at a price, and not everything in their line is on par.
Your Felder shopping list looks good. ? I would encourage you to consider an RL250 or the Al-Ko dust collector system instead of RL200. ? I’d consider alternatives to the FW950 for all the reasons mentioned by Lucky. ? I don’t know what an FB190 is, but if you’re looking for a bandsaw, the newer 24” machines from a number of suppliers are all basically the same IMO - minor variations, everyone chasing maximum resaw capacity. ? Felder used to OEM ACM bandsaws, now they make their own. ? Edgebanding machines are temperamental beasts and if you’re thinking of going into cabinet production full time, I’d encourage you to buy from a vendor who provides local support with 24 hour on-call service (which Felder does not have). ? John Ferandin (here on FOG) has recent experience with the Forka and might comment - trust his comments, he’s not easily bullshitted. ? Before you settle on the FAT300, have a good long look at Barth (available from Rangate or Martin). ? I have the Barth 500V and it’s my constant companion in the shop, even though I choked hard on the price, it’s worth it IMO.
Tooling your equipment is another deep subculture, and worthy of lots of thought and discussion before you buy. ? Mac’s Airtight Clamps are a “must have” IMO. ? There are better alternatives to the Felder parallel fence system from Brian and Mac (both here on FOG).? Aigner’s catalog will drain your bank account quickly unless you know more about how you’re going to work, you’ll be convinced you need everything they make. ? Rangate is a good source for shaper tooling and other goodies including Barth, Zuani, and they are very service oriented.
Harry at Felder is a terrific guy, and is one of a select few customer-facing people at Felder who actually knows woodworking and can convey the benefits of the equipment to an honest woodworker.? He is one hell of a nice guy, but a sales person nonetheless. ? Do your homework.
If you have specific questions on equipment or options, sing out - there are plenty of great resources right here on FOG to help spend your money.
David Best
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
|
Dave K., not Keith and I have no experience with the Northfield head...
Marlowe
On Nov 30, 2016 10:20 AM, "Marlowe McGraw" < marlomcgraw@...> wrote: Yes, spending money that isn't ours is certainly fun!? You have received some excellent advice already, but I'll add my two cents.
Dave K. and I are very much in the same school regarding machinery? ( in a weak moment, I sold my Martin shaper to him).? I've been continuously upgrading my equipment over decades and am likely to win any equipment diversity contest on this or any other forum.
Figuring out what sort of work you want to make would be a good path toward ending up with the best collection of machinery.?
Depending on how mechanically inclined you are and how much time you want to spend on such things, you might consider some full industrial items in the used category.?
Band saws, planers and jointers were optimized years ago with the exception of guides and cutterhead.? My planer is an older Martin, my jointer an older Panhans.
Northfield still produces new versions of old designs that have been performing the job in production shops with decades of daily use. They have their own version of the carbide spiral cutterhead, but have no experience with it.? Don't know how long they will be around, but you can still talk to the third or forth generation maker and get a history on any machine down to the bearings originally installed.?? Counts large in my estimation.? They, like many of the old school makers are likely to be a victim of their own overly robust machines and innovation from makers like Felder.?
Think Tannewitz when you look at band saws.? Silly cheap used and bulletproof.
Sliding table saws are an area that makes sense to buy new.? I have a Felder K975 and really like the saw.
Shapers.? I'm into multiplicity like Dave Keith.? I have a older Martin tilting, and SCMI T130, two Northfield SP's and a Yates number 4.? I have the space and dislike changing set ups.
I should probably get back to work...
Marlowe McGraw
|
Don't worry Marlowe.? you are the only one I'd sell the Martin to.? Dave
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: felder-woodworking@... on behalf of Marlowe McGraw marlomcgraw@... [felder-woodworking]
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 11:20 AM
To: felder-woodworking
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Re: hello all
?
?
Yes, spending money that isn't ours is certainly fun!? You have received some excellent advice already, but I'll add my two cents.
Dave K. and I are very much in the same school regarding machinery? ( in a weak moment, I sold my Martin shaper to him).? I've been continuously upgrading my equipment over decades and am likely to win any equipment diversity contest on this or
any other forum.
Figuring out what sort of work you want to make would be a good path toward ending up with the best collection of machinery.?
Depending on how mechanically inclined you are and how much time you want to spend on such things, you might consider some full industrial items in the used category.?
Band saws, planers and jointers were optimized years ago with the exception of guides and cutterhead.? My planer is an older Martin, my jointer an older Panhans.
Northfield still produces new versions of old designs that have been performing the job in production shops with decades of daily use. They have their own version of the carbide spiral cutterhead, but have no experience with it.? Don't know how long they will
be around, but you can still talk to the third or forth generation maker and get a history on any machine down to the bearings originally installed.?? Counts large in my estimation.? They, like many of the old school makers are likely to be a victim of their
own overly robust machines and innovation from makers like Felder.?
Think Tannewitz when you look at band saws.? Silly cheap used and bulletproof.
Sliding table saws are an area that makes sense to buy new.? I have a Felder K975 and really like the saw.
Shapers.? I'm into multiplicity like Dave Keith.? I have a older Martin tilting, and SCMI T130, two Northfield SP's and a Yates number 4.? I have the space and dislike changing set ups.
I should probably get back to work...
Marlowe McGraw
|
Yes, spending money that isn't ours is certainly fun!? You have received some excellent advice already, but I'll add my two cents.
Dave K. and I are very much in the same school regarding machinery? ( in a weak moment, I sold my Martin shaper to him).? I've been continuously upgrading my equipment over decades and am likely to win any equipment diversity contest on this or any other forum.
Figuring out what sort of work you want to make would be a good path toward ending up with the best collection of machinery.?
Depending on how mechanically inclined you are and how much time you want to spend on such things, you might consider some full industrial items in the used category.?
Band saws, planers and jointers were optimized years ago with the exception of guides and cutterhead.? My planer is an older Martin, my jointer an older Panhans.
Northfield still produces new versions of old designs that have been performing the job in production shops with decades of daily use. They have their own version of the carbide spiral cutterhead, but have no experience with it.? Don't know how long they will be around, but you can still talk to the third or forth generation maker and get a history on any machine down to the bearings originally installed.?? Counts large in my estimation.? They, like many of the old school makers are likely to be a victim of their own overly robust machines and innovation from makers like Felder.?
Think Tannewitz when you look at band saws.? Silly cheap used and bulletproof.
Sliding table saws are an area that makes sense to buy new.? I have a Felder K975 and really like the saw.
Shapers.? I'm into multiplicity like Dave Keith.? I have a older Martin tilting, and SCMI T130, two Northfield SP's and a Yates number 4.? I have the space and dislike changing set ups.
I should probably get back to work...
Marlowe McGraw
?
I can see that this is going to be a fun conversation as we try to help Glen spend his money. Dave
|
Dave D. He's already talked to Harry from Felder Austria. For those that don't know Harry he is who Felder sends out to train all the sales people. I drank beer with Harry, he's good and very knowledgeable. He's also Felder to the core. The one place Felder seems to be lacking is a really good NA service/parts team. Jason's experience is an example. In my experience at least from the Canadian side of the border they have failed to realize how important a machine down situation is the customer. From the comments on this forum it seems to be the case in the U.S.A. I'm in contact with a fair number of pro customers in the greater Toronto area and this is common complaint. There are some of us who have been waiting for 2 years for small orders to be addressed. ?I've been told that Felder doesn't take this forum seriously and doesn't monitor it. Their mistake.?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-------- Original message -------- From: "David Davies myfinishingtouch@... [felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@...> Date: 2016-11-30 10:24 AM (GMT-05:00) To: felder-woodworking <felder-woodworking@...> Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Re: hello all
?
I can see that this is going to be a fun conversation as we try to help Glen spend his money. Dave
|
I can see that this is going to be a fun conversation as we try to help Glen spend his money. Dave
?
Glen, to mess with your head a little more, here is another option.? If you have the room you could start with a medium sized shaper with a sliding table like the F700.? It is as versatile as any shaper out there.? It does have some limitations but only
use will tell you what they are in your world.? I would then supplement the F700 with a heavy fixed table production type machine with a bigger? ( 260 minimum ) fence.? A two shaper set up pretty much eliminates the need for the electronic bells and whistles
that are efficient for a one machine shop but prone to failure before the mechanicals.
I have four shapers ( really only use three? but I like machines ) that in total cost less than a fully equipped Format.? Three were unused prior to my purchase.? Felder F7 precursor to the F700, Knapp saw shaper, SCMI T130, and Martin T21.
Knapp benefit is better fence and router spindle that rotates up to 23000.
SCMI has numerical fence on both sides and handles the Aigner plates better than the Felder.? Much more of a production machine although built nothing like the old Martin.
Martin is just cool but built with heavy components and precision large bearings in a drip oil lubrication system that will outlast all the others combined.? As long as they haven't been bastardized by some well meaning clueless type who swapped the bearings
for sealed, you can get a machine that will outlast you for about 4K.? Same with T 130.
When I'm in entry or cabinet door mode, I set up the machines and don't change settings maybe for weeks or months depending on my lack of commitment.
I'd also second a look at an edge sander.? Mine is an older Oakley but gets used every time I saw joint or plane.
I guess my long winded point is to be careful spending for all new high end machinery up front until you develop what you really need to make your life happy.? Multiple sliding saws, shapers, and bandsaws make me happy while others like the T27 type capabilities.?
Dave
?
Hi Glen,
I work in a co-op shop that includes 4 professional furniture makers, and a couple hobbyists as well. We have 4000 square feet of space, and redundancy in many machine areas-saws in particular. Thank goodness.
We have only one Felder in house, an early 2000's KF700 saw/shaper combo. This was a three phase vfd converted to single phase arrangement. The vfd failed on it a few years ago, and Felder was very helpful in helping me diagnose the problem and implement
a solution (which was not replacing the $1900 vfd, but changing out the electrics to run 3 phase as we have it available). That said, this machine was down for nearly 3 months if I recall correctly. We had to wait for parts to come from Austria more than once.
If that was our only saw, we'd have been sunk. Most of our machines are pretty old school, but commercial grade for the most part. Probably like what you may have been used to before. Yes, some of them have an aftermarket digital readout on them but that's
the extent of higher technology with the exception of spiral cutterheads.?
The reason for this is two fold. A. we are custom furniture makers who don't make a ton of money, and didn't make it previously doing something else. It's a tough business. B. There is just not much to go wrong on machines that don't have all the bells
and whistles of motorized fences, CNC controls, vfd converters, etc. Would it be nice? Sure it would. Can you do without it and still make beautiful things? Absolutely. Would those options make me that much more efficient to be able to afford those machines?
I seriously doubt it. I bet they are a joy to use, but so is my all manual Panhans slider, or my old Oliver 299 planer, and my Eckstrom Carlson edge sander. I'd love to work in an all Martin shop, but that's not really an option for me, or most people that
need to make a living with their tools.
So my message is pragmatic. Buy what you want, but don't feel like you need to blow your whole wad on machinery. You can make what you want with whatever you happen to buy. Some of the most talented woodworkers I know make due with less than a quarter
of the equipment budget you're pondering. You could save a lot of money and spend it taking classes from the best people in the business. They would likely be in shops that were not as well appointed as what you are talking about setting up.
I do like our Felder. Its a fine machine. It has its quirks, and some of them have been addressed on the newer machines. I didn't buy this one, so I can't say that I'd buy another but I think my partner would indeed.
Jason
Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
|
Welcome to J. Holtz Furniture. I specialize in building custom furniture and built-in cabinetry, including the occasional kitchen. I also build doors and ...
|
3307 Snelling Ave. South
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
|
Glen, to mess with your head a little more, here is another option.? If you have the room you could start with a medium sized shaper with a sliding table like the F700.? It is as versatile as any shaper out there.? It does have some limitations but only
use will tell you what they are in your world.? I would then supplement the F700 with a heavy fixed table production type machine with a bigger? ( 260 minimum ) fence.? A two shaper set up pretty much eliminates the need for the electronic bells and whistles
that are efficient for a one machine shop but prone to failure before the mechanicals.
I have four shapers ( really only use three? but I like machines ) that in total cost less than a fully equipped Format.? Three were unused prior to my purchase.? Felder F7 precursor to the F700, Knapp saw shaper, SCMI T130, and Martin T21.
Knapp benefit is better fence and router spindle that rotates up to 23000.
SCMI has numerical fence on both sides and handles the Aigner plates better than the Felder.? Much more of a production machine although built nothing like the old Martin.
Martin is just cool but built with heavy components and precision large bearings in a drip oil lubrication system that will outlast all the others combined.? As long as they haven't been bastardized by some well meaning clueless type who swapped the bearings
for sealed, you can get a machine that will outlast you for about 4K.? Same with T 130.
When I'm in entry or cabinet door mode, I set up the machines and don't change settings maybe for weeks or months depending on my lack of commitment.
I'd also second a look at an edge sander.? Mine is an older Oakley but gets used every time I saw joint or plane.
I guess my long winded point is to be careful spending for all new high end machinery up front until you develop what you really need to make your life happy.? Multiple sliding saws, shapers, and bandsaws make me happy while others like the T27 type capabilities.?
Dave
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: felder-woodworking@... on behalf of Jason Holtz jholtzy@... [felder-woodworking]
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 9:38 AM
To: felder-woodworking@...
Subject: [felder-woodworking] Re: hello all
?
?
Hi Glen,
I work in a co-op shop that includes 4 professional furniture makers, and a couple hobbyists as well. We have 4000 square feet of space, and redundancy in many machine areas-saws in particular. Thank goodness.
We have only one Felder in house, an early 2000's KF700 saw/shaper combo. This was a three phase vfd converted to single phase arrangement. The vfd failed on it a few years ago, and Felder was very helpful in helping me diagnose the problem and implement
a solution (which was not replacing the $1900 vfd, but changing out the electrics to run 3 phase as we have it available). That said, this machine was down for nearly 3 months if I recall correctly. We had to wait for parts to come from Austria more than once.
If that was our only saw, we'd have been sunk. Most of our machines are pretty old school, but commercial grade for the most part. Probably like what you may have been used to before. Yes, some of them have an aftermarket digital readout on them but that's
the extent of higher technology with the exception of spiral cutterheads.?
The reason for this is two fold. A. we are custom furniture makers who don't make a ton of money, and didn't make it previously doing something else. It's a tough business. B. There is just not much to go wrong on machines that don't have all the bells
and whistles of motorized fences, CNC controls, vfd converters, etc. Would it be nice? Sure it would. Can you do without it and still make beautiful things? Absolutely. Would those options make me that much more efficient to be able to afford those machines?
I seriously doubt it. I bet they are a joy to use, but so is my all manual Panhans slider, or my old Oliver 299 planer, and my Eckstrom Carlson edge sander. I'd love to work in an all Martin shop, but that's not really an option for me, or most people that
need to make a living with their tools.
So my message is pragmatic. Buy what you want, but don't feel like you need to blow your whole wad on machinery. You can make what you want with whatever you happen to buy. Some of the most talented woodworkers I know make due with less than a quarter
of the equipment budget you're pondering. You could save a lot of money and spend it taking classes from the best people in the business. They would likely be in shops that were not as well appointed as what you are talking about setting up.
I do like our Felder. Its a fine machine. It has its quirks, and some of them have been addressed on the newer machines. I didn't buy this one, so I can't say that I'd buy another but I think my partner would indeed.
Jason
Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
|
www.jholtz.com
Welcome to J. Holtz Furniture. I specialize in building custom furniture and built-in cabinetry, including the occasional kitchen. I also build doors and ...
|
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765
|
Hi Glen, I work in a co-op shop that includes 4 professional furniture makers, and a couple hobbyists as well. We have 4000 square feet of space, and redundancy in many machine areas-saws in particular. Thank goodness.
We have only one Felder in house, an early 2000's KF700 saw/shaper combo. This was a three phase vfd converted to single phase arrangement. The vfd failed on it a few years ago, and Felder was very helpful in helping me diagnose the problem and implement a solution (which was not replacing the $1900 vfd, but changing out the electrics to run 3 phase as we have it available). That said, this machine was down for nearly 3 months if I recall correctly. We had to wait for parts to come from Austria more than once. If that was our only saw, we'd have been sunk. Most of our machines are pretty old school, but commercial grade for the most part. Probably like what you may have been used to before. Yes, some of them have an aftermarket digital readout on them but that's the extent of higher technology with the exception of spiral cutterheads.?
The reason for this is two fold. A. we are custom furniture makers who don't make a ton of money, and didn't make it previously doing something else. It's a tough business. B. There is just not much to go wrong on machines that don't have all the bells and whistles of motorized fences, CNC controls, vfd converters, etc. Would it be nice? Sure it would. Can you do without it and still make beautiful things? Absolutely. Would those options make me that much more efficient to be able to afford those machines? I seriously doubt it. I bet they are a joy to use, but so is my all manual Panhans slider, or my old Oliver 299 planer, and my Eckstrom Carlson edge sander. I'd love to work in an all Martin shop, but that's not really an option for me, or most people that need to make a living with their tools.
So my message is pragmatic. Buy what you want, but don't feel like you need to blow your whole wad on machinery. You can make what you want with whatever you happen to buy. Some of the most talented woodworkers I know make due with less than a quarter of the equipment budget you're pondering. You could save a lot of money and spend it taking classes from the best people in the business. They would likely be in shops that were not as well appointed as what you are talking about setting up.
I do like our Felder. Its a fine machine. It has its quirks, and some of them have been addressed on the newer machines. I didn't buy this one, so I can't say that I'd buy another but I think my partner would indeed.
Jason
Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765
|
Glen,
Don't get obsessed with buying the best machine available. ?
It does not make sense to buy a Martin t27 shaper if you are a hobbyist. ?You will be paying for features you will not take advantage of. ?If you have a shop with multiple employees running long hours you get the maximum benefit from a very heavy duty large machine. ?Some of the value of Martin is in the ability to run hour after hour day after day, if you run your shaper a few hours a week you may not need the extra robustness. That said, if I had the space and money was not an issue I would love to have a t27 with tenoning table powered power feeder arm.
One nice thing about heavy robust machines that most here will hopefully never learn about first hand is that a heavy machine is much better when something goes wrong. ?If you are spinning a heavy cutter on a shaper and a knife breaks resulting is an unbalanced spinning object a light machine which worked well with a balanced cutter may start oscillating and the operator will have less time to shut everything down before something fails. ?While it is possible to spin a 40 pound 12" cutter on a single trunnion f700z it is much better to use a Profile 45 in the event that something goes wrong for safety reasons.
I took delivery of a Profile 45z X-motion in March to replace my f700z and am very happy. ?I especially love X-motion control. ?Also, recognize that machines with elaborate control systems may have a limited lifespan. ?What do you do when your touch screen goes out on a 10 year old machine? ?Look at the value of used CNC routers to see what I mean. ?I look for machines with generic modular control system ?components. ?Felder uses such parts and has been good at helping me repair older Felder machines. ?In 2009 Felder's service department provided updated electronics for my year 2000 cf731p combination machine. ?It now has modular electronics that can be easily repaired. ?
Joe in New Orleans?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
?
I’ll second Dave Kumm’s comment that there isn’t a single brand that is best-in-breed at everything. ? My shop is mostly Felder (Kappa 400 xMotion, Profil 45, Dual 51, RL160), and I have owned various Felder machines since I slipped into the deep end of the pool in 2001. ? Felder isn’t perfect - no company is. ? I have also been a Martin dealer. ?While I respect Martin's in-house machines, they are not without their own quirks, and some of their machines are made by other companies. ? No company covers the equipment territory with all best-in-breed machines. ? Even Marin has disgruntled customers. ? ?
If you have NO BUDGET CONSTRAINTS, you can do better than Felder in almost every category, but not from a single supplier IMO. ? If, on the other hand, you’re looking for exceptional value from a single source, Felder is a great choice for several categories of equipment. ? Felder is also a progressive growth company, comes up with terrific innovations from time to time (Silent Power cutterhead on their J/P’s to name just one), and invests heavily in R&D and manufacturing. ? In contrast, the Martin factory looks like a re-tooled tank manufacturing facility from WWII, and they have had their share management turmoil the past 10 years. ? I don’t want to dis Martin, they do make great machines, but they come at a price, and not everything in their line is on par.
Your Felder shopping list looks good. ? I would encourage you to consider an RL250 or the Al-Ko dust collector system instead of RL200. ? I’d consider alternatives to the FW950 for all the reasons mentioned by Lucky. ? I don’t know what an FB190 is, but if you’re looking for a bandsaw, the newer 24” machines from a number of suppliers are all basically the same IMO - minor variations, everyone chasing maximum resaw capacity. ? Felder used to OEM ACM bandsaws, now they make their own. ? Edgebanding machines are temperamental beasts and if you’re thinking of going into cabinet production full time, I’d encourage you to buy from a vendor who provides local support with 24 hour on-call service (which Felder does not have). ? John Ferandin (here on FOG) has recent experience with the Forka and might comment - trust his comments, he’s not easily bullshitted. ? Before you settle on the FAT300, have a good long look at Barth (available from Rangate or Martin). ? I have the Barth 500V and it’s my constant companion in the shop, even though I choked hard on the price, it’s worth it IMO.
Tooling your equipment is another deep subculture, and worthy of lots of thought and discussion before you buy. ? Mac’s Airtight Clamps are a “must have” IMO. ? There are better alternatives to the Felder parallel fence system from Brian and Mac (both here on FOG). ?Aigner’s catalog will drain your bank account quickly unless you know more about how you’re going to work, you’ll be convinced you need everything they make. ? Rangate is a good source for shaper tooling and other goodies including Barth, Zuani, and they are very service oriented.
Harry at Felder is a terrific guy, and is one of a select few customer-facing people at Felder who actually knows woodworking and can convey the benefits of the equipment to an honest woodworker. ?He is one hell of a nice guy, but a sales person nonetheless. ? Do your homework.
If you have specific questions on equipment or options, sing out - there are plenty of great resources right here on FOG to help spend your money.
David Best
|
I’ll second Dave Kumm’s comment that there isn’t a single brand that is best-in-breed at everything. ? My shop is mostly Felder (Kappa 400 xMotion, Profil 45, Dual 51, RL160), and I have owned various Felder machines since I slipped into the deep end of the pool in 2001. ? Felder isn’t perfect - no company is. ? I have also been a Martin dealer. ?While I respect Martin's in-house machines, they are not without their own quirks, and some of their machines are made by other companies. ? No company covers the equipment territory with all best-in-breed machines. ? Even Marin has disgruntled customers. ? ?
If you have NO BUDGET CONSTRAINTS, you can do better than Felder in almost every category, but not from a single supplier IMO. ? If, on the other hand, you’re looking for exceptional value from a single source, Felder is a great choice for several categories of equipment. ? Felder is also a progressive growth company, comes up with terrific innovations from time to time (Silent Power cutterhead on their J/P’s to name just one), and invests heavily in R&D and manufacturing. ? In contrast, the Martin factory looks like a re-tooled tank manufacturing facility from WWII, and they have had their share management turmoil the past 10 years. ? I don’t want to dis Martin, they do make great machines, but they come at a price, and not everything in their line is on par.
Your Felder shopping list looks good. ? I would encourage you to consider an RL250 or the Al-Ko dust collector system instead of RL200. ? I’d consider alternatives to the FW950 for all the reasons mentioned by Lucky. ? I don’t know what an FB190 is, but if you’re looking for a bandsaw, the newer 24” machines from a number of suppliers are all basically the same IMO - minor variations, everyone chasing maximum resaw capacity. ? Felder used to OEM ACM bandsaws, now they make their own. ? Edgebanding machines are temperamental beasts and if you’re thinking of going into cabinet production full time, I’d encourage you to buy from a vendor who provides local support with 24 hour on-call service (which Felder does not have). ? John Ferandin (here on FOG) has recent experience with the Forka and might comment - trust his comments, he’s not easily bullshitted. ? Before you settle on the FAT300, have a good long look at Barth (available from Rangate or Martin). ? I have the Barth 500V and it’s my constant companion in the shop, even though I choked hard on the price, it’s worth it IMO.
Tooling your equipment is another deep subculture, and worthy of lots of thought and discussion before you buy. ? Mac’s Airtight Clamps are a “must have” IMO. ? There are better alternatives to the Felder parallel fence system from Brian and Mac (both here on FOG). ?Aigner’s catalog will drain your bank account quickly unless you know more about how you’re going to work, you’ll be convinced you need everything they make. ? Rangate is a good source for shaper tooling and other goodies including Barth, Zuani, and they are very service oriented.
Harry at Felder is a terrific guy, and is one of a select few customer-facing people at Felder who actually knows woodworking and can convey the benefits of the equipment to an honest woodworker. ?He is one hell of a nice guy, but a sales person nonetheless. ? Do your homework.
If you have specific questions on equipment or options, sing out - there are plenty of great resources right here on FOG to help spend your money.
David Best
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
?
Glen, I'd ask if there is a reason to buy all machines from one company.? As great as Felder is, I don't believe every machine in every line is the best choice.? I don't think any company can claim that.? I'd also ask why the jointer planer combo if you
have the room for separates.? Given your high end budget, spend some time looking at how each machine is built relative to the competition and then decide.? Felder makes some machines that when on sale are terrific values ( Kappa saw is one ) but others that
I don't feel lead the pack.? Same for SCM, Griggio, Casadei, even Martin.? Same for cars.? Dave
?
Thank you David for welcoming me aboard,
I have looked at a lot of different companies over the last year, and i really like The Felder company. I have been to there offices in Sacramento, Ca? a few times, what really sold me was Harry? was out from Austria getting ready for a trade show in Florida
and I knew he was there for other things but , he spent the day with me and we took apart a 700SP and he gave me more knowledge in that six hours then I have had in my life time. with that I am sold.
So here I go:
Things have changed in woodworking in fifteen years, so I now have a learning curve.
My Purchase Order with Felder is (still working on options and tooling)?
Kappa 400 X Motion
AD 951 or 741
Profil 45 Z X motion
Forka 300 s Eco
FW 950 Classic ( not on my purchase order but maybe some day()
FB190
RL200
Fat300 for 2
The building has 3 phase 480.
?
I will have about 2400 Sq Ft not including office space that I don't? need
As for what i am going to build, that is the big unknown, I have ideas and I will make it work
I can build one hell of a table beyond that the learning curve starts
Glen?
-----Original Message-----
From: David Luckensmeyer dhluckens@... [felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...>
To: felder-woodworking < felder-woodworking@...>
Sent: Tue, Nov 29, 2016 5:00 pm
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Hello all,
?
Hi Glen:
Welcome to the group! Looking forward to helping you.
Regarding your question about “bad experiences”, I think perhaps that is not the right question. Most of us are long-term, repeat Felder customers who have invested a lot of time and money into Felder machines, along with many other brands. We
can probably all tell stories about “bad experiences”, whether about a particular machine, or a particular service representative. Here the context would be most important. Was the “bad experience” last year or fifteen years ago? Was it West coast or East
coast, or somewhere like Australia (where I am)? And so forth. Make sense?
Perhaps a more useful question would be: “Would you buy Felder again?”
My answer is absolutely. This company is not perfect. The service is not perfect. The machines are not perfect. But they are very well designed (in the main), very well built (in the main), and the service is much better than average (again, in
the main). I have quite a few of their machines and have spent a lot of money with Felder. I, for one, will continue to buy Felder.
There are many here who can help you with the machines you’re considering, and what options to buy. But we need more information, like:
How much do you want to spend? $10k, $20k, $100k?
What power do you have, or are you willing to put in?
What size space do you have? (This is important for sliding table lengths.)
And what kind of “woodwork” do you like to do? Small, detailed items; big interior design work; veneer or solid? Etc.
These are exciting times for you!
Warm regards,
David
Dr David Luckensmeyer
Practice Manager
Luckensmeyer Medical Pty Ltd
?
and
Designer and Woodworker
Original Designs in Wood
?
I am a new joiner to the group and would like to introduce myself.
My name is Glen and I am purchasing some Felder tools. I am Glad to find this group to get in touch and learn more.
I grew up in wood, my dad was a cabinet builder , boat builder or just anything anyone would bring him he could build
Ten years ago I got out of wood and got in the grocery business. It was the best and worse thing I ever did. The best thing was i made money , the bad was 100 hour work weeks and missing sawdust. In those ten years i put some money away every month so i could
get my workshop back when i retired. I am retiring in 32 days and about 10 hours. Ha. So as i try and figure out what I am buying,how to plan shop layout, dust collection, what im going to make to sell if anything and why im even really doing this, I am looking
for knowledge from other people. I have nothing but questions and this is a one time thing for me that I have to get right. My girl friend was ok with it ( "It will give you something to do and keep you busy") until I told her how much i was going to spend.?
Sorry to drag on but i am excited to join this group and other related groups to learn how you all do. it.
Thanks Glen
Question one, who has had any bad experiences with Felder?
-----Original Message-----
From: James Zhu ?james.zhu2@...?[felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...>
To: ?phil_moger@...?[felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...>
Sent: Tue, Nov 29, 2016 10:16 am
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Re: See the new dust collector?
?
I read another post?.
The machine sold in states comes with 5 micron filter, 1 micron is an option you can upgrade. I believe the machine sold in Europe will have 1 micron filter.
|
Hi Glen,
Welcome to the group.? As others have said, you will find it very friendly and informative.
As a hobby user, who gets out to her workshop far too infrequently at the moment, I'm probably the least qualified respondent, but will throw in a few thoughts.? My Felder kit consists of KF700SP (2008 vintage), AD941 and RL200.
I endorse the view to go for separates rather than combination machines as space doesn't seem to be an issue for you.
You suggest either the AD741 or AD951, missing out the 941, assuming you stick with a combination machine in this instance.? Whichever you opt for, do at least have the "powerdrive" option.? I couldn't justify the 951, but "digidrive" would have been nice to have and is not an option on the '41s.? Don't consider anything other than the Silent Power spiral cutter head!? The mounting rails for extension tables?are worth having.? (In the past I've bought sets of these rails to fit to non-Felder machines just so that I can use the extension tables I have across a range of machines.)? The only issue I've had with the AD941 so far is that I do find the planer tables a bit heavy to lift in order to go to thicknesser mode.? You're probably rather stronger than me, but perhaps still an issue as we all get older.? (I had it in the back of my mind that there was a power lift option on the 951, but can't now find this mentioned anywhere, so perhaps my memory playing up again.)
Whichever saw you go for, do take the advice of getting pneumatic clamps.? Being in the UK rather than the US, I've added the Felder ones rather than Mac's, but note that everyone who has Mac's version speaks very highly of them.? Whatever, just get rid of the basic eccentric clamp that Felder supply!
For the spindle moulder (shaper in US-speak), consider the Aigner ("Integral") fence plates.? Fairly pricey, but nice to have.
I'm happy with the RL200.? I opted for the pneumatic auto-cleaning system for the filters.? Nice feature and only needs a trivial amount of compressed air, which I'm sure won't be an issue for you.? As with others, I have noted a degree of unevenness in the way the 2 bins fill.? Also, you must take care with aligning the bins after changing the bags.? They rely upon a suction feed to keep the bags in place - otherwise they suck up against the filters and you get a workshop floor covered in sawdust.? The suction feeds from the machine must line up with the sockets in the bin frame, but there's enough lateral free-play for this not to occur if you're not careful.? (Thought to self:? I must check to see if there's some adjustment I can make to reduce the lateral tolerance and overcome this problem.)
As you have 3-phase power, I'm sure everyone will advise you to go for 3-phase machines across the board.
Julie
From: "GLEN chris3645@... [felder-woodworking]" To: felder-woodworking@...
Sent: Wednesday, 30 November 2016, 2:14
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Hello all,
?
Thank you David for welcoming me aboard,
I have looked at a lot of different companies over the last year, and i really like The Felder company. I have been to there offices in Sacramento, Ca? a few times, what really sold me was Harry? was out from Austria getting ready for a trade show in Florida and I knew he was there for other things but , he spent the day with me and we took apart a 700SP and he gave me more knowledge in that six hours then I have had in my life time. with that I am sold.
So here I go:
Things have changed in woodworking in fifteen years, so I now have a learning curve.
My Purchase Order with Felder is (still working on options and tooling)?
Kappa 400 X Motion
AD 951 or 741
Profil 45 Z X motion
Forka 300 s Eco
FW 950 Classic ( not on my purchase order but maybe some day()
FB190
RL200
Fat300 for 2
The building has 3 phase 480.
?
I will have about 2400 Sq Ft not including office space that I don't? need
As for what i am going to build, that is the big unknown, I have ideas and I will make it work
I can build one hell of a table beyond that the learning curve starts
Glen?
-----Original Message-----
From: David Luckensmeyer dhluckens@... [felder-woodworking]
To: felder-woodworking
Sent: Tue, Nov 29, 2016 5:00 pm
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Hello all,
?
Hi Glen:
Welcome to the group! Looking forward to helping you.
Regarding your question about “bad experiences”, I think perhaps that is not the right question. Most of us are long-term, repeat Felder customers who have invested a lot of time and money into Felder machines, along with many other brands. We can probably all tell stories about “bad experiences”, whether about a particular machine, or a particular service representative. Here the context would be most important. Was the “bad experience” last year or fifteen years ago? Was it West coast or East coast, or somewhere like Australia (where I am)? And so forth. Make sense?
Perhaps a more useful question would be: “Would you buy Felder again?”
My answer is absolutely. This company is not perfect. The service is not perfect. The machines are not perfect. But they are very well designed (in the main), very well built (in the main), and the service is much better than average (again, in the main). I have quite a few of their machines and have spent a lot of money with Felder. I, for one, will continue to buy Felder.
There are many here who can help you with the machines you’re considering, and what options to buy. But we need more information, like:
How much do you want to spend? $10k, $20k, $100k?
What power do you have, or are you willing to put in?
What size space do you have? (This is important for sliding table lengths.)
And what kind of “woodwork” do you like to do? Small, detailed items; big interior design work; veneer or solid? Etc.
These are exciting times for you!
Warm regards,
David
Dr David Luckensmeyer
Practice Manager
Luckensmeyer Medical Pty Ltd
?
and
Designer and Woodworker
Original Designs in Wood
?
I am a new joiner to the group and would like to introduce myself.
My name is Glen and I am purchasing some Felder tools. I am Glad to find this group to get in touch and learn more.
I grew up in wood, my dad was a cabinet builder , boat builder or just anything anyone would bring him he could build
Ten years ago I got out of wood and got in the grocery business. It was the best and worse thing I ever did. The best thing was i made money , the bad was 100 hour work weeks and missing sawdust. In those ten years i put some money away every month so i could get my workshop back when i retired. I am retiring in 32 days and about 10 hours. Ha. So as i try and figure out what I am buying,how to plan shop layout, dust collection, what im going to make to sell if anything and why im even really doing this, I am looking for knowledge from other people. I have nothing but questions and this is a one time thing for me that I have to get right. My girl friend was ok with it ( "It will give you something to do and keep you busy") until I told her how much i was going to spend.?
Sorry to drag on but i am excited to join this group and other related groups to learn how you all do. it.
Thanks Glen
Question one, who has had any bad experiences with Felder?
-----Original Message----- From: James Zhu ?james.zhu2@...?[felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> To: ?phil_moger@...?[felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> Sent: Tue, Nov 29, 2016 10:16 am Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Re: See the new dust collector?
?
I read another post?.
The machine sold in states comes with 5 micron filter, 1 micron is an option you can upgrade. I believe the machine sold in Europe will have 1 micron filter.
|
Some Martin machines are rebadged Griggio so you have to know what you are looking at even with Martin.? Hoffmann will argue they are superior to Martin, just not available here.? My point is to do lots of homework, at least until you have more retirement
assets than needed.? Dave
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: felder-woodworking@... on behalf of James Zhu james.zhu2@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 12:32 AM
To: phil_moger@... [felder-woodworking]
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Hello all,
?
?
Martin does not make all the woodworking machines, but for all the machines and accessories??has on their websites, IMO they are
the best in the world.
If money is not an issue, and you want the best, it is a trivial task, just check ?.
James
|
Martin does not make all the woodworking machines, but for all the machines and accessories??has on their websites, IMO they are the best in the world.
If money is not an issue, and you want the best, it is a trivial task, just check ?.
James
?
Glen, I'd ask if there is a reason to buy all machines from one company.? As great as Felder is, I don't believe every machine in every line is the best choice.? I don't think any company can claim that.? I'd also ask why the jointer planer combo if you
have the room for separates.? Given your high end budget, spend some time looking at how each machine is built relative to the competition and then decide.? Felder makes some machines that when on sale are terrific values ( Kappa saw is one ) but others that
I don't feel lead the pack.? Same for SCM, Griggio, Casadei, even Martin.? Same for cars.? Dave
?
Thank you David for welcoming me aboard,
I have looked at a lot of different companies over the last year, and i really like The Felder company. I have been to there offices in Sacramento, Ca? a few times, what really sold me was Harry? was out from Austria getting ready for a trade show in Florida
and I knew he was there for other things but , he spent the day with me and we took apart a 700SP and he gave me more knowledge in that six hours then I have had in my life time. with that I am sold.
So here I go:
Things have changed in woodworking in fifteen years, so I now have a learning curve.
My Purchase Order with Felder is (still working on options and tooling)?
Kappa 400 X Motion
AD 951 or 741
Profil 45 Z X motion
Forka 300 s Eco
FW 950 Classic ( not on my purchase order but maybe some day()
FB190
RL200
Fat300 for 2
The building has 3 phase 480.
?
I will have about 2400 Sq Ft not including office space that I don't? need
As for what i am going to build, that is the big unknown, I have ideas and I will make it work
I can build one hell of a table beyond that the learning curve starts
Glen?
-----Original Message-----
From: David Luckensmeyer dhluckens@... [felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
To: felder-woodworking < felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Nov 29, 2016 5:00 pm
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Hello all,
?
Hi Glen:
Welcome to the group! Looking forward to helping you.
Regarding your question about “bad experiences”, I think perhaps that is not the right question. Most of us are long-term, repeat Felder customers who have invested a lot of time and money into Felder machines, along with many other brands. We
can probably all tell stories about “bad experiences”, whether about a particular machine, or a particular service representative. Here the context would be most important. Was the “bad experience” last year or fifteen years ago? Was it West coast or East
coast, or somewhere like Australia (where I am)? And so forth. Make sense?
Perhaps a more useful question would be: “Would you buy Felder again?”
My answer is absolutely. This company is not perfect. The service is not perfect. The machines are not perfect. But they are very well designed (in the main), very well built (in the main), and the service is much better than average (again, in
the main). I have quite a few of their machines and have spent a lot of money with Felder. I, for one, will continue to buy Felder.
There are many here who can help you with the machines you’re considering, and what options to buy. But we need more information, like:
How much do you want to spend? $10k, $20k, $100k?
What power do you have, or are you willing to put in?
What size space do you have? (This is important for sliding table lengths.)
And what kind of “woodwork” do you like to do? Small, detailed items; big interior design work; veneer or solid? Etc.
These are exciting times for you!
Warm regards,
David
Dr David Luckensmeyer
Practice Manager
Luckensmeyer Medical Pty Ltd
?
and
Designer and Woodworker
Original Designs in Wood
?
I am a new joiner to the group and would like to introduce myself.
My name is Glen and I am purchasing some Felder tools. I am Glad to find this group to get in touch and learn more.
I grew up in wood, my dad was a cabinet builder , boat builder or just anything anyone would bring him he could build
Ten years ago I got out of wood and got in the grocery business. It was the best and worse thing I ever did. The best thing was i made money , the bad was 100 hour work weeks and missing sawdust. In those ten years i put some money away every month so i could
get my workshop back when i retired. I am retiring in 32 days and about 10 hours. Ha. So as i try and figure out what I am buying,how to plan shop layout, dust collection, what im going to make to sell if anything and why im even really doing this, I am looking
for knowledge from other people. I have nothing but questions and this is a one time thing for me that I have to get right. My girl friend was ok with it ( "It will give you something to do and keep you busy") until I told her how much i was going to spend.?
Sorry to drag on but i am excited to join this group and other related groups to learn how you all do. it.
Thanks Glen
Question one, who has had any bad experiences with Felder?
|
Glen, I'd ask if there is a reason to buy all machines from one company.? As great as Felder is, I don't believe every machine in every line is the best choice.? I don't think any company can claim that.? I'd also ask why the jointer planer combo if you
have the room for separates.? Given your high end budget, spend some time looking at how each machine is built relative to the competition and then decide.? Felder makes some machines that when on sale are terrific values ( Kappa saw is one ) but others that
I don't feel lead the pack.? Same for SCM, Griggio, Casadei, even Martin.? Same for cars.? Dave
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: felder-woodworking@... on behalf of GLEN chris3645@... [felder-woodworking]
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2016 9:14 PM
To: felder-woodworking@...
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Hello all,
?
?
Thank you David for welcoming me aboard,
I have looked at a lot of different companies over the last year, and i really like The Felder company. I have been to there offices in Sacramento, Ca? a few times, what really sold me was Harry? was out from Austria getting ready for a trade show in Florida
and I knew he was there for other things but , he spent the day with me and we took apart a 700SP and he gave me more knowledge in that six hours then I have had in my life time. with that I am sold.
So here I go:
Things have changed in woodworking in fifteen years, so I now have a learning curve.
My Purchase Order with Felder is (still working on options and tooling)?
Kappa 400 X Motion
AD 951 or 741
Profil 45 Z X motion
Forka 300 s Eco
FW 950 Classic ( not on my purchase order but maybe some day()
FB190
RL200
Fat300 for 2
The building has 3 phase 480.
?
I will have about 2400 Sq Ft not including office space that I don't? need
As for what i am going to build, that is the big unknown, I have ideas and I will make it work
I can build one hell of a table beyond that the learning curve starts
Glen?
-----Original Message-----
From: David Luckensmeyer dhluckens@... [felder-woodworking]
To: felder-woodworking <felder-woodworking@...>
Sent: Tue, Nov 29, 2016 5:00 pm
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Hello all,
?
Hi Glen:
Welcome to the group! Looking forward to helping you.
Regarding your question about “bad experiences”, I think perhaps that is not the right question. Most of us are long-term, repeat Felder customers who have invested a lot of time and money into Felder machines, along with many other brands. We
can probably all tell stories about “bad experiences”, whether about a particular machine, or a particular service representative. Here the context would be most important. Was the “bad experience” last year or fifteen years ago? Was it West coast or East
coast, or somewhere like Australia (where I am)? And so forth. Make sense?
Perhaps a more useful question would be: “Would you buy Felder again?”
My answer is absolutely. This company is not perfect. The service is not perfect. The machines are not perfect. But they are very well designed (in the main), very well built (in the main), and the service is much better than average (again, in
the main). I have quite a few of their machines and have spent a lot of money with Felder. I, for one, will continue to buy Felder.
There are many here who can help you with the machines you’re considering, and what options to buy. But we need more information, like:
How much do you want to spend? $10k, $20k, $100k?
What power do you have, or are you willing to put in?
What size space do you have? (This is important for sliding table lengths.)
And what kind of “woodwork” do you like to do? Small, detailed items; big interior design work; veneer or solid? Etc.
These are exciting times for you!
Warm regards,
David
Dr David Luckensmeyer
Practice Manager
Luckensmeyer Medical Pty Ltd
?
and
Designer and Woodworker
Original Designs in Wood
?
I am a new joiner to the group and would like to introduce myself.
My name is Glen and I am purchasing some Felder tools. I am Glad to find this group to get in touch and learn more.
I grew up in wood, my dad was a cabinet builder , boat builder or just anything anyone would bring him he could build
Ten years ago I got out of wood and got in the grocery business. It was the best and worse thing I ever did. The best thing was i made money , the bad was 100 hour work weeks and missing sawdust. In those ten years i put some money away every month so i could
get my workshop back when i retired. I am retiring in 32 days and about 10 hours. Ha. So as i try and figure out what I am buying,how to plan shop layout, dust collection, what im going to make to sell if anything and why im even really doing this, I am looking
for knowledge from other people. I have nothing but questions and this is a one time thing for me that I have to get right. My girl friend was ok with it ( "It will give you something to do and keep you busy") until I told her how much i was going to spend.?
Sorry to drag on but i am excited to join this group and other related groups to learn how you all do. it.
Thanks Glen
Question one, who has had any bad experiences with Felder?
-----Original Message-----
From: James Zhu ?james.zhu2@...?[felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...>
To: ?phil_moger@...?[felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...>
Sent: Tue, Nov 29, 2016 10:16 am
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Re: See the new dust collector?
?
I read another post?.
The machine sold in states comes with 5 micron filter, 1 micron is an option you can upgrade. I believe the machine sold in Europe will have 1 micron filter.
|
This is absolutely a very nice purchase list of the machines that many pro shops do not have.
I can see you love high quality machines, you probably should take a look at Martin? as well, they have all the best machines, yes, more expensive though.
Never heard anyone complained about their Martin machines.
James
On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 9:14 PM, GLEN chris3645@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
?
Thank you David for welcoming me aboard,
I have looked at a lot of different companies over the last year, and i really like The Felder company. I have been to there offices in Sacramento, Ca? a few times, what really sold me was Harry? was out from Austria getting ready for a trade show in Florida and I knew he was there for other things but , he spent the day with me and we took apart a 700SP and he gave me more knowledge in that six hours then I have had in my life time. with that I am sold.
So here I go:
Things have changed in woodworking in fifteen years, so I now have a learning curve.
My Purchase Order with Felder is (still working on options and tooling)?
Kappa 400 X Motion
AD 951 or 741
Profil 45 Z X motion
Forka 300 s Eco
FW 950 Classic ( not on my purchase order but maybe some day()
FB190
RL200
Fat300 for 2
The building has 3 phase 480.
?
I will have about 2400 Sq Ft not including office space that I don't? need
As for what i am going to build, that is the big unknown, I have ideas and I will make it work
I can build one hell of a table beyond that the learning curve starts
Glen?
-----Original Message-----
From: David Luckensmeyer dhluckens@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
To: felder-woodworking <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Nov 29, 2016 5:00 pm
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Hello all,
?
Hi Glen:
Welcome to the group! Looking forward to helping you.
Regarding your question about “bad experiences”, I think perhaps that is not the right question. Most of us are long-term, repeat Felder customers who have invested a lot of time and money into Felder machines, along with many other brands. We can probably all tell stories about “bad experiences”, whether about a particular machine, or a particular service representative. Here the context would be most important. Was the “bad experience” last year or fifteen years ago? Was it West coast or East coast, or somewhere like Australia (where I am)? And so forth. Make sense?
Perhaps a more useful question would be: “Would you buy Felder again?”
My answer is absolutely. This company is not perfect. The service is not perfect. The machines are not perfect. But they are very well designed (in the main), very well built (in the main), and the service is much better than average (again, in the main). I have quite a few of their machines and have spent a lot of money with Felder. I, for one, will continue to buy Felder.
There are many here who can help you with the machines you’re considering, and what options to buy. But we need more information, like:
How much do you want to spend? $10k, $20k, $100k?
What power do you have, or are you willing to put in?
What size space do you have? (This is important for sliding table lengths.)
And what kind of “woodwork” do you like to do? Small, detailed items; big interior design work; veneer or solid? Etc.
These are exciting times for you!
Warm regards,
David
Dr David Luckensmeyer
Practice Manager
Luckensmeyer Medical Pty Ltd
?
and
Designer and Woodworker
Original Designs in Wood
?
I am a new joiner to the group and would like to introduce myself.
My name is Glen and I am purchasing some Felder tools. I am Glad to find this group to get in touch and learn more.
I grew up in wood, my dad was a cabinet builder , boat builder or just anything anyone would bring him he could build
Ten years ago I got out of wood and got in the grocery business. It was the best and worse thing I ever did. The best thing was i made money , the bad was 100 hour work weeks and missing sawdust. In those ten years i put some money away every month so i could get my workshop back when i retired. I am retiring in 32 days and about 10 hours. Ha. So as i try and figure out what I am buying,how to plan shop layout, dust collection, what im going to make to sell if anything and why im even really doing this, I am looking for knowledge from other people. I have nothing but questions and this is a one time thing for me that I have to get right. My girl friend was ok with it ( "It will give you something to do and keep you busy") until I told her how much i was going to spend.?
Sorry to drag on but i am excited to join this group and other related groups to learn how you all do. it.
Thanks Glen
Question one, who has had any bad experiences with Felder?
|
Glen:
Nice “to-purchase” list!
Several of us have the Kappa 400 x motion, including myself. But the person you really want to take advice from? David Best. Seriously consider every piece of advice he gives you as he does not tell you what he would buy, but rather considers your situation and advises you on what he would buy in your situation. His advice is worth a great deal and I am grateful for his contributions to my shop and to me personally.
Make sure you buy Mac’s pneumatic clamps. If you’re going the x-motion, you can afford his clamps. Clamps are not “optional” and Mac’s are the best of the best.
You reference the AD951 or AD741. I have a Dual-51 and love it. My understanding from others is that the AD951 is going for a special deal at the moment. You should strongly consider at least “power-drive”. I have “digi-drive” which is even better again. Many on the FOG do not have digi-drive and therefore do not automatically recommend it. It is absolutely worth the money (in my opinion) in a commercial (my) situation. Complete luxury in your (nearly retired) situation. It’s up to you, but if you would like more information on why I like the digi, let me know.
I have the Profil 45Z x-motion. Great choice. It’s an awesome machine. Listen to the guys here about what tooling to purchase. My vote is for Felder or Rangate. Both are great. There’s also a lot of accessories and options for this machine, some of which cannot be added later. Happy to help when you narrow down what you want.
I can’t help you with the Forka. But I think John Ferandin has just had direct experience with one. John, what is the final verdict on the machine?
FW950 Classic. I have this machine, and would not buy it again. If I could get my money back I would. It is a faulty sander, briefly as follows:
- It requires roughly double the amperage it says it needs on the machine/motor plate in order to start. There is something wrong with the star/delta start, or otherwise. I have followed this up at length with Felder, and even the motor manufacturer. In the end, I have installed an expensive (here in Australia) 40A supply dedicated to the sander. It should work on a 20A circuit.
- The digital readout is relative only. It cannot be zeroed out without removing an access panel and literally fiddling with the rod and adjusting nuts attached to the readout. Seems misleading to me.
- The grit and platen compensation on the machine is not calibrated correctly, and cannot be adjusted. Consequently, if you finally get the digital readout to be correct for say 80 grit, it will be off for other grits (e.g. 180). Likewise, if you finally get the readout zeroed for calibration sanding with the rubber roller, it will be off for the platen, and vice versa. Not well thought through.
- The biggest and most damning feature of all is that the platen on this sander is faulty. David Best has generously worked through multiple adjustment tests with me, to try to get the sander to sand “flat”, all to no avail. This sander rounds the edges (along the sides) of a board no matter what is done, regardless of the pressure used, or adjustment settings. This is VERY frustrating.
In all, the FW950 Classic is faulty. Utterly so. I now wish I had spent more for another brand. End rant.
FB190? This must be a typo. I have a vintage FB540 which is no longer made and absolutely love the bandsaw. My next bandsaw will simply be a bigger one from Felder.
I used to have an RL160, which was nice, but I now have an RL250, which is VERY nice. Would I buy this machine again? NO. I was advised to look seriously at AL-KO, and now I wish I had. The RL units are very nice, but their bins fill up unevenly, and it is very easy to make a mess of things with sawdust and chips climbing unevenly up one side of bins and in amongst the filters… Takes quite a while to clean. I do like the power of the RL250, and many here love their RL200, so if you decide to buy the 200, you’ll be in good company. Just beware that the RL units do have issues.
Fat300. Lucky you. They’ve never sold one in Australia. They look a very nice table. I’ve long looked into cheaper (local) and more expensive (e.g. Barth) alternatives, but have yet to pull the trigger.
My oh my, are you having fun with all these decisions! I’m having fun just typing about it! :-)
Lucky
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Thank you David for welcoming me aboard,
I have looked at a lot of different companies over the last year, and i really like The Felder company. I have been to there offices in Sacramento, Ca? a few times, what really sold me was Harry? was out from Austria getting ready for a trade show in Florida and I knew he was there for other things but , he spent the day with me and we took apart a 700SP and he gave me more knowledge in that six hours then I have had in my life time. with that I am sold.?
So here I go:
Things have changed in woodworking in fifteen years, so I now have a learning curve.
My Purchase Order with Felder is (still working on options and tooling)??
Kappa 400 X Motion
AD 951 or 741
Profil 45 Z X motion
Forka 300 s Eco
FW 950 Classic ( not on my purchase order but maybe some day()
FB190
RL200
Fat300 for 2?
The building has 3 phase 480.
?
I will have about 2400 Sq Ft not including office space that I don't? need
As for what i am going to build, that is the big unknown, I have ideas and I will make it work?
I can build one hell of a table beyond that the learning curve starts
Glen??
-----Original Message----- From: David Luckensmeyer ?dhluckens@...?[felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> To: felder-woodworking < felder-woodworking@...> Sent: Tue, Nov 29, 2016 5:00 pm Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Hello all, ?Hi Glen:
Welcome to the group! Looking forward to helping you.
Regarding your question about “bad experiences”, I think perhaps that is not the right question. Most of us are long-term, repeat Felder customers who have invested a lot of time and money into Felder machines, along with many other brands. We can probably all tell stories about “bad experiences”, whether about a particular machine, or a particular service representative. Here the context would be most important. Was the “bad experience” last year or fifteen years ago? Was it West coast or East coast, or somewhere like Australia (where I am)? And so forth. Make sense?
Perhaps a more useful question would be: “Would you buy Felder again?”
My answer is absolutely. This company is not perfect. The service is not perfect. The machines are not perfect. But they are very well designed (in the main), very well built (in the main), and the service is much better than average (again, in the main). I have quite a few of their machines and have spent a lot of money with Felder. I, for one, will continue to buy Felder.
There are many here who can help you with the machines you’re considering, and what options to buy. But we need more information, like:
How much do you want to spend? $10k, $20k, $100k?
What power do you have, or are you willing to put in?
What size space do you have? (This is important for sliding table lengths.)
And what kind of “woodwork” do you like to do? Small, detailed items; big interior design work; veneer or solid? Etc.
These are exciting times for you!
Warm regards, David
Dr David Luckensmeyer Practice Manager Luckensmeyer Medical Pty Ltd ?
and
Designer and Woodworker Original Designs in Wood ?
I am a new joiner to the group and would like to introduce myself.
My name is Glen and I am purchasing some Felder tools. I am Glad to find this group to get in touch and learn more.
I grew up in wood, my dad was a cabinet builder , boat builder or just anything anyone would bring him he could build
Ten years ago I got out of wood and got in the grocery business. It was the best and worse thing I ever did. The best thing was i made money , the bad was 100 hour work weeks and missing sawdust. In those ten years i put some money away every month so i could get my workshop back when i retired. I am retiring in 32 days and about 10 hours. Ha. So as i try and figure out what I am buying,how to plan shop layout, dust collection, what im going to make to sell if anything and why im even really doing this, I am looking for knowledge from other people. I have nothing but questions and this is a one time thing for me that I have to get right. My girl friend was ok with it ( "It will give you something to do and keep you busy") until I told her how much i was going to spend.?
Sorry to drag on but i am excited to join this group and other related groups to learn how you all do. it.
Thanks Glen
Question one, who has had any bad experiences with Felder?
-----Original Message----- From: James Zhu ?james.zhu2@...?[felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> To: ?phil_moger@...?[felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> Sent: Tue, Nov 29, 2016 10:16 am Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Re: See the new dust collector? ?I read another post?.
The machine sold in states comes with 5 micron filter, 1 micron is an option you can upgrade. I believe the machine sold in Europe will have 1 micron filter.
|
Thank you David for welcoming me aboard,
I have looked at a lot of different companies over the last year, and i really like The Felder company. I have been to there offices in Sacramento, Ca? a few times, what really sold me was Harry? was out from Austria getting ready for a trade show in Florida and I knew he was there for other things but , he spent the day with me and we took apart a 700SP and he gave me more knowledge in that six hours then I have had in my life time. with that I am sold.
So here I go:
Things have changed in woodworking in fifteen years, so I now have a learning curve.
My Purchase Order with Felder is (still working on options and tooling)?
Kappa 400 X Motion
AD 951 or 741
Profil 45 Z X motion
Forka 300 s Eco
FW 950 Classic ( not on my purchase order but maybe some day()
FB190
RL200
Fat300 for 2
The building has 3 phase 480.
?
I will have about 2400 Sq Ft not including office space that I don't? need
As for what i am going to build, that is the big unknown, I have ideas and I will make it work
I can build one hell of a table beyond that the learning curve starts
Glen?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: David Luckensmeyer dhluckens@... [felder-woodworking]
To: felder-woodworking
Sent: Tue, Nov 29, 2016 5:00 pm
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Hello all,
?
Hi Glen:
Welcome to the group! Looking forward to helping you.
Regarding your question about “bad experiences”, I think perhaps that is not the right question. Most of us are long-term, repeat Felder customers who have invested a lot of time and money into Felder machines, along with many other brands. We can probably all tell stories about “bad experiences”, whether about a particular machine, or a particular service representative. Here the context would be most important. Was the “bad experience” last year or fifteen years ago? Was it West coast or East coast, or somewhere like Australia (where I am)? And so forth. Make sense?
Perhaps a more useful question would be: “Would you buy Felder again?”
My answer is absolutely. This company is not perfect. The service is not perfect. The machines are not perfect. But they are very well designed (in the main), very well built (in the main), and the service is much better than average (again, in the main). I have quite a few of their machines and have spent a lot of money with Felder. I, for one, will continue to buy Felder.
There are many here who can help you with the machines you’re considering, and what options to buy. But we need more information, like:
How much do you want to spend? $10k, $20k, $100k?
What power do you have, or are you willing to put in?
What size space do you have? (This is important for sliding table lengths.)
And what kind of “woodwork” do you like to do? Small, detailed items; big interior design work; veneer or solid? Etc.
These are exciting times for you!
Warm regards,
David
Dr David Luckensmeyer
Practice Manager
Luckensmeyer Medical Pty Ltd
?
and
Designer and Woodworker
Original Designs in Wood
?
I am a new joiner to the group and would like to introduce myself.
My name is Glen and I am purchasing some Felder tools. I am Glad to find this group to get in touch and learn more.
I grew up in wood, my dad was a cabinet builder , boat builder or just anything anyone would bring him he could build
Ten years ago I got out of wood and got in the grocery business. It was the best and worse thing I ever did. The best thing was i made money , the bad was 100 hour work weeks and missing sawdust. In those ten years i put some money away every month so i could get my workshop back when i retired. I am retiring in 32 days and about 10 hours. Ha. So as i try and figure out what I am buying,how to plan shop layout, dust collection, what im going to make to sell if anything and why im even really doing this, I am looking for knowledge from other people. I have nothing but questions and this is a one time thing for me that I have to get right. My girl friend was ok with it ( "It will give you something to do and keep you busy") until I told her how much i was going to spend.?
Sorry to drag on but i am excited to join this group and other related groups to learn how you all do. it.
Thanks Glen
Question one, who has had any bad experiences with Felder?
-----Original Message----- From: James Zhu ?james.zhu2@...?[felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> To: ?phil_moger@...?[felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> Sent: Tue, Nov 29, 2016 10:16 am Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Re: See the new dust collector?
?
I read another post?.
The machine sold in states comes with 5 micron filter, 1 micron is an option you can upgrade. I believe the machine sold in Europe will have 1 micron filter.
|
Jason Holtz
David P. Best
David Luckensmeyer