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Yes, spending money that isn't ours is certainly fun!? You have received some excellent advice already, but I'll add my two cents.

Dave K. and I are very much in the same school regarding machinery? ( in a weak moment, I sold my Martin shaper to him).? I've been continuously upgrading my equipment over decades and am likely to win any equipment diversity contest on this or any other forum.
Figuring out what sort of work you want to make would be a good path toward ending up with the best collection of machinery.?
Depending on how mechanically inclined you are and how much time you want to spend on such things, you might consider some full industrial items in the used category.?
Band saws, planers and jointers were optimized years ago with the exception of guides and cutterhead.? My planer is an older Martin, my jointer an older Panhans.
Northfield still produces new versions of old designs that have been performing the job in production shops with decades of daily use. They have their own version of the carbide spiral cutterhead, but have no experience with it.? Don't know how long they will be around, but you can still talk to the third or forth generation maker and get a history on any machine down to the bearings originally installed.?? Counts large in my estimation.? They, like many of the old school makers are likely to be a victim of their own overly robust machines and innovation from makers like Felder.?
Think Tannewitz when you look at band saws.? Silly cheap used and bulletproof.
Sliding table saws are an area that makes sense to buy new.? I have a Felder K975 and really like the saw.
Shapers.? I'm into multiplicity like Dave Keith.? I have a older Martin tilting, and SCMI T130, two Northfield SP's and a Yates number 4.? I have the space and dislike changing set ups.
I should probably get back to work...
Marlowe McGraw

On Nov 30, 2016 9:34 AM, "David Davies myfinishingtouch@... [felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

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I can see that this is going to be a fun conversation as we try to help Glen spend his money.

Dave

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 9:13 AM, David Kumm davekumm@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

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Glen, to mess with your head a little more, here is another option.? If you have the room you could start with a medium sized shaper with a sliding table like the F700.? It is as versatile as any shaper out there.? It does have some limitations but only use will tell you what they are in your world.? I would then supplement the F700 with a heavy fixed table production type machine with a bigger? ( 260 minimum ) fence.? A two shaper set up pretty much eliminates the need for the electronic bells and whistles that are efficient for a one machine shop but prone to failure before the mechanicals.

I have four shapers ( really only use three? but I like machines ) that in total cost less than a fully equipped Format.? Three were unused prior to my purchase.? Felder F7 precursor to the F700, Knapp saw shaper, SCMI T130, and Martin T21.

Knapp benefit is better fence and router spindle that rotates up to 23000.

SCMI has numerical fence on both sides and handles the Aigner plates better than the Felder.? Much more of a production machine although built nothing like the old Martin.

Martin is just cool but built with heavy components and precision large bearings in a drip oil lubrication system that will outlast all the others combined.? As long as they haven't been bastardized by some well meaning clueless type who swapped the bearings for sealed, you can get a machine that will outlast you for about 4K.? Same with T 130.

When I'm in entry or cabinet door mode, I set up the machines and don't change settings maybe for weeks or months depending on my lack of commitment.

I'd also second a look at an edge sander.? Mine is an older Oakley but gets used every time I saw joint or plane.

I guess my long winded point is to be careful spending for all new high end machinery up front until you develop what you really need to make your life happy.? Multiple sliding saws, shapers, and bandsaws make me happy while others like the T27 type capabilities.? Dave

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From: felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Jason Holtz jholtzy@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 9:38 AM
To: felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [felder-woodworking] Re: hello all

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Hi Glen,

I work in a co-op shop that includes 4 professional furniture makers, and a couple hobbyists as well. We have 4000 square feet of space, and redundancy in many machine areas-saws in particular. Thank goodness.

We have only one Felder in house, an early 2000's KF700 saw/shaper combo. This was a three phase vfd converted to single phase arrangement. The vfd failed on it a few years ago, and Felder was very helpful in helping me diagnose the problem and implement a solution (which was not replacing the $1900 vfd, but changing out the electrics to run 3 phase as we have it available). That said, this machine was down for nearly 3 months if I recall correctly. We had to wait for parts to come from Austria more than once. If that was our only saw, we'd have been sunk. Most of our machines are pretty old school, but commercial grade for the most part. Probably like what you may have been used to before. Yes, some of them have an aftermarket digital readout on them but that's the extent of higher technology with the exception of spiral cutterheads.?

The reason for this is two fold. A. we are custom furniture makers who don't make a ton of money, and didn't make it previously doing something else. It's a tough business. B. There is just not much to go wrong on machines that don't have all the bells and whistles of motorized fences, CNC controls, vfd converters, etc. Would it be nice? Sure it would. Can you do without it and still make beautiful things? Absolutely. Would those options make me that much more efficient to be able to afford those machines? I seriously doubt it. I bet they are a joy to use, but so is my all manual Panhans slider, or my old Oliver 299 planer, and my Eckstrom Carlson edge sander. I'd love to work in an all Martin shop, but that's not really an option for me, or most people that need to make a living with their tools.

So my message is pragmatic. Buy what you want, but don't feel like you need to blow your whole wad on machinery. You can make what you want with whatever you happen to buy. Some of the most talented woodworkers I know make due with less than a quarter of the equipment budget you're pondering. You could save a lot of money and spend it taking classes from the best people in the business. They would likely be in shops that were not as well appointed as what you are talking about setting up.

I do like our Felder. Its a fine machine. It has its quirks, and some of them have been addressed on the newer machines. I didn't buy this one, so I can't say that I'd buy another but I think my partner would indeed.

Jason

Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture

Welcome to J. Holtz Furniture. I specialize in building custom furniture and built-in cabinetry, including the occasional kitchen. I also build doors and ...

3307 Snelling Ave. South

Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765

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Dave & Marie Davies

318-219-7868