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Re: Veneering Advice Sought
On Sun, Apr 20, 2025 at 07:02 AM, Steven B wrote:
I like UF glue but I can't get it locally anymore last time I looked and the stuff I used only had about a year of shelf life.? ?Silas Kopf uses it, maybe not all the time but he likes it.
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Re: Veneering Advice Sought
I've used Lacewood PSA veneer on an MDF substrate for a large coffee table - ?I used Shellac on the MDF and sanded it before applying the veneer. Also veneered the opposing side to ensure stability but used a cheaper veneer. This may have been overkill.
Straightforward process - due to the strength of the PSA, positioning needs to be as simple as possible (it is something you can only do once). Might be easier to apply it to an oversize substrate, then cut to size and apply edge banding. Have had no problems with the stability of the finished table. The veneered top is surrounding by a stained solid maple frame with ebony edge banding between the maple frame and the top - it has stood up to daily use for at least 10 years and still looks as good as new. I finished the table with Arm R Seal varnish.
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Re: Veneering Advice Sought
Hi David, I don't have any experience with the PSA backed veneers, but you couldn't pay me to experiment on a customer's project with it. There's no way that glue line is going to be rigid enough to prevent creep.?
My 2 cents on paperback veneer is that it sucks. Yes it's convenient to not have to seam raw veneer yourself. I have found that PVA type glues do not like to stick real well to the paper. I had a?recent little project making new panels for an old door, and the?customer was adamant about matching the other rotary cut red oak veneered doors nearby. That ugly veneer was only available as a paper backed product so I was forced to use it. The panels were around 9" wide, and I made a couple full length to cut to size after veneering. I am veneering something all the time, so I'm pretty confident I?know how much glue is enough. On both of these panels, I had areas of delamination around the edges, that I could pull right off. This was glued with Unibond One. I don't have this problem with raw veneers. On the contrary, on the occasion that I need to remove a piece of veneer, I find it usually takes some of the MDF substrate with it, the bond is so good.?
You probably recall my kitchen job that bit me in the ass, rift white oak on Europly. All my doors are veneered onto MDF now.? I haven't specifically used Appleply as we don't have a dealer here in the midwest, but I can't imagine it's much different from the Europly.? I'd employ your same technique with MDF core, band it, then get yourself some nice raw wenge from Certainly Wood and you'll be golden.?
Jason
Wenge Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
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Re: Veneering Advice Sought
Hi David,
I do a fair amount of veneering flat panels, though I¡¯m typically working with 1/16" thick veneer, which is a bit more forgiving than the thinner material you're using. I¡¯ve had decent results with Better Bond X-press. It¡¯s easy to work with and has a relatively short clamp time. That said, it¡¯s water-based, so it tends to cause the veneer to curl if you¡¯re not moving quickly. It also isn¡¯t really formulated for thicker veneers, so bond strength and consistency can be variable in those cases which is why I've moved on from using it.
I¡¯ve since switched to Unibond 800, which is a urea formaldehyde based adhesive. It¡¯s been excellent in terms of rigidity, creep resistance, and overall bond quality. The open and clamp times are longer: 1¨C3 hours depending on temp. It can sometimes slow down the workflow but I think the tradeoff is worth it. My main concern is the health implications of long-term exposure. I do all of it in a vacuum bag and I use heating blankets to accelerate the cure time.
I¡¯m definitely curious to hear what adhesives others are using.
Steve
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Re: Veneering Advice Sought
PSA is for compromised application/installation environments,?and can have issues with finish solvents and heat - even sunshine through a window - releasing over time. Also can have issues applying over older finishes that fail when the old finish loses adhesion to substrate. If you are making new, isolated parts with vacuum?press bag, go with the thickest paper back available (lots of paper back is 10mil, some is 20-22mil) for most bubble-free stability and insurance against application-caused defects. While cutting the doors, cut an extra set for platens.
For glues, I'd recommend PVA for a project like this. Must use firm foam roller for thin even glueline layer under veneer and fast absorption of moisture into both substrates), lest even slightly more thickness of glue line can have profound undesirable effects, such as the rubber "treaded" rollers found at Rocker and elsewhere.? If you are spry and the weather isn't too hot/dry, standard PVA like Titebond I/II . If not feeling spry - use longer open time of? Titebond "Cold Press 5176"? - now only offered in a neutral brown tint anyway. I don't think it's worth going to mixed powder glues or such for a small one-off like this when PVA is easy to clean, forgiving, and familiar to work with.?
Not Wenge specific, but I've had great results buzzing a Festool RTS400 with as low as 80 grit, chamfer-style to trim excess veneer edges and contour corners and skip the router trimming step entirely, eliminating nearly any tearout.
On Sat, Apr 19, 2025 at 8:39?PM David P. Best via <dbestworkshop= [email protected]> wrote: It¡¯s been several years since I did any veneer work, and I¡¯m looking for some advice. ?
I¡¯m about to start the doors and drawer front for a large??(which is largely complete except for the front faces) and one of the options is to start with 19mm plywood and apply a quarter-sawn Wenge veneer.? I have the choice between paper-backed veneer with [pick your favorite] glue in a vacuum bag setup, or to go with veneer that has a 3M PSA adhesive layer on the back side.? I¡¯ve never worked with the latter, and I see all kinds of new and different glues available now for conventional vacuum bag glue-ups.? So I¡¯m looking for suggestions & guidance that is ¡°current day¡± informed.? I am NOT interested in a contact cement approach.
This specific project will have a 19mm ApplyPly Premium substrate (12-layer birch with maple face). I would cut the three individual parts ~3mm undersized, apply 5-6mm thick Wenge edge band, then apply the Wenge face veneer, then fit and cut to finial size based on actual cabinet openings.? There are two door panels that are 14¡± wide by 46¡± tall, and one drawer face that is 28¡± wide and 15¡± tall.? I can source the quarter-sawn Wenge veneer with either paper or PSA adhesive backing in 4x8 sheets.
Since I¡¯ve never worked with PSA-backed veneer, I¡¯m a bit skeptical not sure I want to experiment - so looking for input here.? I see various comments that the substrate material should be finished with sealer, varnish, lacquer, etc. prior to applying the PSA-backed product. ?
And if I do decide to use a traditional paper-backed veneer and vacuum bag route, which of the myriad of current glue alternatives is the best choice.
I¡¯ve never worked with Wenge veneer either, so if anyone here has, I¡¯d love to get some understanding about crosscutting it after glue-up and what kind of tear-out challenges I might have to contend with.
Thanks for your suggestions.
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
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Re: Veneering Advice Sought
Great information, thank you for sharing.
--
Burak ³Ò¨¹°ù±ð°ù
T¨¹rkiye (owner Ad 951-K740S-FB710)
gurerwoodcraft/Instagram?
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Re: Veneering Advice Sought
Hi David - I¡¯ve used Better Bond XPress (dark) for recent walnut projects. ?It was recommended by veneer supplies and I can attest that it is excellent for veneering wood and paper backed veneers. ?The darker color is great if there is any bleed through and edge profiles. It sets up in 90 minutes in a veneer bag. ?
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On Apr 20, 2025, at 12:54 AM, Marty Gildea via groups.io <madigabr@...> wrote:
David, I have been following a very talented Australian woodworker (Nick Pedula) and he has several YouTube videos dealing with various aspects related to veneering. Here¡¯s a link to one of his videos.? If you poke around you will others that talk specifically about different glues.?
Re: Veneering Advice Sought
David, I have been following a very talented Australian woodworker (Nick Pedula) and he has several YouTube videos dealing with various aspects related to veneering. Here¡¯s a link to one of his videos.? If you poke around you will others that talk specifically about different glues.?
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It¡¯s been several years since I did any veneer work, and I¡¯m looking for some advice. ?
I¡¯m about to start the doors and drawer front for a large??(which is largely complete except for the front faces) and one of the options is to start with 19mm plywood and apply a quarter-sawn Wenge veneer. ?I have the choice between paper-backed veneer with [pick your favorite] glue in a vacuum bag setup, or to go with veneer that has a 3M PSA adhesive layer on the back side. ?I¡¯ve never worked with the latter, and I see all kinds of new and different glues available now for conventional vacuum bag glue-ups. ?So I¡¯m looking for suggestions & guidance that is ¡°current day¡± informed. ?I am NOT interested in a contact cement approach.
This specific project will have a 19mm ApplyPly Premium substrate (12-layer birch with maple face). I would cut the three individual parts ~3mm undersized, apply 5-6mm thick Wenge edge band, then apply the Wenge face veneer, then fit and cut to finial size based on actual cabinet openings. ?There are two door panels that are 14¡± wide by 46¡± tall, and one drawer face that is 28¡± wide and 15¡± tall. ?I can source the quarter-sawn Wenge veneer with either paper or PSA adhesive backing in 4x8 sheets.
Since I¡¯ve never worked with PSA-backed veneer, I¡¯m a bit skeptical not sure I want to experiment - so looking for input here. ?I see various comments that the substrate material should be finished with sealer, varnish, lacquer, etc. prior to applying the PSA-backed product. ?
And if I do decide to use a traditional paper-backed veneer and vacuum bag route, which of the myriad of current glue alternatives is the best choice.
I¡¯ve never worked with Wenge veneer either, so if anyone here has, I¡¯d love to get some understanding about crosscutting it after glue-up and what kind of tear-out challenges I might have to contend with.
Thanks for your suggestions.
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
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Re: Which Comatic base is small enough to mount to KF700 flip-away bracket
Hi Ron,
?
I encountered the same problem when installing the smart stand on the tilt bracket on my KF700SP. ?I didn't want to grind away part of the stand base, so I made a shim to offset the assist cylinder bracket enough to enable the smart stand to bolt up to the stand.
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I made my shim out of steel. ?However, I am sure a piece of aluminum would have worked OK. ?It took an hour to map the holes, drill and tap the appropriate holes, and install the bracket.
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See photos. Good luck.
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Alex B.
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On 04/17/2025 10:37 AM PDT Ron Pomeroy via groups.io <rpomeroy@...> wrote:
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Subject kinda says is all but,
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I just discovered the smart stand that came with my Comatic DS700 is too wide to mount to the flip away bracket. ?The hole pattern is fine but the flange at the base is roughly 6.7¡± wide whereas the usable width of the bracket (without running into the strut support) is around 5¡±.
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Has anyone successfully mounted a recent Comatic power feeder to a Felder flip-away bracket. ?If so can you provide details on the stand from Comatic?
?
Regards,
?
Ron?
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Re: Adding smart stand with DC70 to tilt bracket
I don¡¯t know if it makes a difference, but you only need two bolts Designing and building for 50 years
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On Apr 19, 2025, at 10:26?AM, Ron Pomeroy via groups.io <rpomeroy@...> wrote:
? I also plan on having a shim made to offset the gas strut to make more room for the base. ?I¡¯m inclined to still grind off a little of the smart stand base to allow me to continue using two of the cast iron extensions (you can just squeeze it in -barely).?
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Thanks to all for sharing your insights on this.?
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Ron
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Re: Adding smart stand with DC70 to tilt bracket
I also plan on having a shim made to offset the gas strut to make more room for the base. ?I¡¯m inclined to still grind off a little of the smart stand base to allow me to continue using two of the cast iron extensions (you can just squeeze it in -barely).?
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Thanks to all for sharing your insights on this.?
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Ron
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Re: [felder-woodworking] Install gas spring assistance for the tilt-away bracket for KF700
Correction from Kyle - the Comatic standard stand is 5.5¡± wide at the base
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Re: Which Comatic base is small enough to mount to KF700 flip-away bracket
I think offsetting the support arm would work as well, it's only a 1/4in after all.? You have a little misalignment with the bottom attachment point but it does not look like enough to bother with.
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I machined a groove into the top of the vertical column and placed an M6 bolt with the end turned down to 5mm into the casting.? That way the top can rotate but not come off?unexpectedly.
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Re: [felder-woodworking] Install gas spring assistance for the tilt-away bracket for KF700
Just to clarify, I paid 1100 each and 92 Designing and building for 50 years
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On Apr 18, 2025, at 10:21?AM, mac campshure via groups.io <mac512002@...> wrote:
? I have two of these power feeder mounts I will sell one for $ 1,100.00 us only plus shipping ups gr? Mounting base is cast-iron machine 6 in.? with 7 1/2 inches in opening Unit is 8 inches wide by 7 x 11¡± tall 3/8 inch or 10 mm roll plate. Screw is 1 inch or 25 mm. Hand wheel is 8 inches in diameter moves up and down like nothing. Just crank your power feeder in or out got both holes in the back of it for standoffs or mounting it however you want this is not a toy serious machine tool stuff. If you¡¯re interested, contact me off the fog. This is what I paid for them. In 1992. Best mac
<IMG_6532.jpeg> <IMG_6531.jpeg>
Designing and building for 50 years On Apr 17, 2025, at 12:29?PM, Ron Pomeroy via groups.io <rpomeroy@...> wrote:
? Hi David
?
I just tried installing a Comatic DS700 (smart stand) to my KF700 with the flip-away bracket.
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The usable width on the Felder supplied flip away bracket is only around 5¡± while that flange at the base is 6.7¡± (the hole pattern is fine).
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Kyle at shopgearinc claims the standard base is 7¡± wide - wider than the heavy duty smart stand.
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Seems unlikely I¡¯m the first to even encounter this. ?Have you run into any of this?
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Thanks in Advance,
?
Ron
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Re: Adding smart stand with DC70 to tilt bracket
Ha! I¡¯m in the exact same boat.?
Just throwing this out there - but what about adding a shim plate to the strut support arm on the left to move it just left enough to allow the holes to align? ?The assembly is held together with screws. The gas strut would be slightly askew but I don¡¯t think it matters. I¡¯d really concerned about it you could reposition the lower bracket for the strut.?
Thoughts?
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Ron
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Re: Which Comatic base is small enough to mount to KF700 flip-away bracket
Could you share your safety mod ?
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Given the width of the standard Comatic stand is 5.5¡± vs the 5¡± usable width of the flip stand with gas strut I¡¯m faced with trimming either one - though I was thinking about an adapter like above.?
I was also contemplating modifying the gas strut support arm to offset it further to the left to get the clearance I need. The existing hole pattern works if you can just center the base on the bracket. Seems there is enough slop in the retaining pins and brackets (top and bottom) to allow for this. ?I wonder if anyone else has considered this approach.?
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?
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Re: [felder-woodworking] Install gas spring assistance for the tilt-away bracket for KF700
I have two of these power feeder mounts I will sell one for $ 1,100.00 us only plus shipping ups gr? Mounting base is cast-iron machine 6 in.? with 7 1/2 inches in opening Unit is 8 inches wide by 7 x 11¡± tall 3/8 inch or 10 mm roll plate. Screw is 1 inch or 25 mm. Hand wheel is 8 inches in diameter moves up and down like nothing. Just crank your power feeder in or out got both holes in the back of it for standoffs or mounting it however you want this is not a toy serious machine tool stuff. If you¡¯re interested, contact me off the fog. This is what I paid for them. In 1992. Best mac
 
Designing and building for 50 years
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On Apr 17, 2025, at 12:29?PM, Ron Pomeroy via groups.io <rpomeroy@...> wrote:
? Hi David
?
I just tried installing a Comatic DS700 (smart stand) to my KF700 with the flip-away bracket.
?
The usable width on the Felder supplied flip away bracket is only around 5¡± while that flange at the base is 6.7¡± (the hole pattern is fine).
?
Kyle at shopgearinc claims the standard base is 7¡± wide - wider than the heavy duty smart stand.
?
Seems unlikely I¡¯m the first to even encounter this. ?Have you run into any of this?
?
Thanks in Advance,
?
Ron
?
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Re: Which Comatic base is small enough to mount to KF700 flip-away bracket
Another way to do that is a simple interface plate with the hole pattern for the smart stand and the tilt bracket.?
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The danger Imran describes is real: the whole top of my smart stand came off once into my arms when I had not tightened the top before flipping.? That thing is heavy and I nearly dropped the arm and feeder.? I modified the smart stand afterwards to prevent that from happening again.? So while I am happy with the smart stand I would not recommend it for use with the flip bracket.?
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Re: Which Comatic base is small enough to mount to KF700 flip-away bracket
Hi Ron,
Smartstand has a bit of a history. I have it on my Dual 51 and built a custom bracket for it. Earlier we weren¡¯t sure if it is advisable to even mount a SS on Flip bracket. I did a whole study to determine weight difference of SS compared to traditional Felder stand. SS with either a DS300 or DS400 was 15# heavier than Felder stand / Vario4 combo that I have on my flip bracket of KF700.
Since then people have mounted them on the flip bracket. One member cut the sides of the round base of SS so that it does not stick past the bracket top.
The key danger is to possibly forget to or not tighten the horizontal tube enough and cause to bend or break the memo pin. I would always have the horizontal arm such that it moves away from the memo pin during flipping of the tilt bracket.
I assume you bracket has the gas assist, it would be dangerous to handle it unless you are built for it.
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On Apr 17, 2025, at 1:37?PM, Ron Pomeroy via groups.io <rpomeroy@...> wrote: ? Subject kinda says is all but,
?
I just discovered the smart stand that came with my Comatic DS700 is too wide to mount to the flip away bracket. ?The hole pattern is fine but the flange at the base is roughly 6.7¡± wide whereas the usable width of the bracket (without running into the strut support) is around 5¡±.
?
Has anyone successfully mounted a recent Comatic power feeder to a Felder flip-away bracket. ?If so can you provide details on the stand from Comatic?
?
Regards,
?
Ron?
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Jason Holtz
³Ò¨¹°ù±ð°ù
David P. Best
Ron Pomeroy
imran