Re: #LATHES Spindle Encoder Update
#LATHES
Wow.? That's quite the belt. John ? ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ralph Hulslander
Sent: March-18-20 9:01 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [digitalhobbyist] #LATHES Spindle Encoder Update? I have my new installed.
And now my Encoder!
I am struggling to find some Arduino Rotary Encoder RPM code that actually works.
I have found sketches that almost work, but are unstable, the rpm keeps changing.
And a lot of code that just does not work.
My encoder is set for 800 ppr (pulse Per Revolution).
I will mount the encoder today.
I know RELS would probable just work but I really am just looking for Motorized Z at the moment.
Oh did you see I have a rough prototype mounting for my Z stepper motor. That needs a lot of work.
I can feel the motor binding when I turn the leadscrew.?
Ralph
--
Clausing 8520, Craftsman 12x36 Lathe, 4x12 mini lathe, 14" Delta drill press, 40 watt laser, Consew brushless DC motors and a non working 3D printer
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#LATHES Spindle Encoder Update
#LATHES
I have my new installed. And now my Encoder!     I am struggling to find some Arduino Rotary Encoder RPM code that actually works. I have found sketches that almost work, but are unstable, the rpm keeps changing. And a lot of code that just does not work. My encoder is set for 800 ppr (pulse Per Revolution). I will mount the encoder today. I know RELS would probable just work but I really am just looking for Motorized Z at the moment. Oh did you see I have a rough prototype mounting for my Z stepper motor. That needs a lot of work. I can feel the motor binding when I turn the leadscrew.? Ralph -- Clausing 8520, Craftsman 12x36 Lathe, 4x12 mini lathe, 14" Delta drill press, 40 watt laser, Consew brushless DC motors and a non working 3D printer
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I mentioned those as the range of speeds you get with small lathes.? My little Unimat will eventually lose that stupid like underpowered brushed sewing machine motor for one a bit larger with Manjeet's UHU servo driver board.? Photo attached.? That's a surplus printer motor good to 3600 RPM I think.? So I'd still want a couple of pulleys to perhaps get 7200 RPM at least. ? With that I then would have 0 to 7200 RPM and there's enough torque drive.? The Unimat is so small that I believe size 17 stepper motors will work for both axis which means something like a BeagleBone cape meant for the 3D printing market would be more than adequate for driving this along with an encoder disk on the spindle. ? At this point a keyboard, mouse and display that are all collectively larger than the lathe itself have always seemed a bit over kill so once again, a smaller LCD interface with lots of buttons on a panel not much larger than my ELS would be ideal.? But it would still involve somehow rewriting the AXIS user interface for MachineKit to deal with a smaller display and keyboard with commands that ultimately use the CNC engine of MachineKit to create ELS motion. ? In the long run, whether it be for a dedicated small PC type motherboard and Ethernet MESA to parallel or the 32 bit TI processor on a custom board looking like a Beagle etc. the idea of a non-video screen and PC keyboard/mouse as a starting point is a project begging to be built.? That infrastructure then allows the buttons and the display plus an MPG knob to in essence be a custom pendant for LinucCNC but behave like an ELS. ? And with that you'd easily be able to do CSS. ? John ? ? ? ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ralph Hulslander
Sent: February-26-20 8:03 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] CSS questions #CSS? John those are set spindle speeds, I think CSS is looking for variable speeds. ? On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 2:56 AM John Dammeyer <johnd@...> wrote: I'd say surface finish.? If you clamp a casting onto your face plate and run the tool across it you'll see various patterns as the SFM changes.? Take that same casting and use a fly cutter on your mill with a power feed and when you are on the 'sweet' spot the surface is beautiful.
I think when facing you get smooth cutting and then tearing etc.
Now, about spindle speeds.? My Unimat DB-200 is rated from 375? to? 9200? RPM.? When turning tiny watch parts or other intricate mechanisms those items almost always need to be turned at pretty high speeds even with HSS tooling.? ? Even the Sherline can go from 70-2800 and I think with appropriate pulleys even faster.
For example.
200 sfm for brass (say a clock or watch movement) and 0.125" diameter you need 6112 RPM.? Move up to 0.375 and the RPM drops to 2037.? And apparently if you use carbide speeds can be up to 4x faster.
I don't think anyone will use a 14" lathe to turn large numbers of 0.125" parts but that last 0.375" diameter when facing does need to be as fast as possible.
John
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Richard
> Sent: February-25-20 11:07 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [digitalhobbyist] CSS questions #CSS
>
> Constant Surface Speed has been mentioned a few times on this and other
> groups. Whilst I am fully aware of what it is I am not aware of how it
> is handled in the real world.
> Surfacing in Z is not a big problem however surfacing in X generates a
> big question.
> If I am facing an aluminium disk say 150mm diameter from out to in with
> a carbide tool, I or the system can determine the initial rpm to start
> the cut (based on surface speed and diameter) and then the system can
> ramp up the speed as the tool moves further in, But what happens when
> the max speed of the spindle is reached? Does it just carry on at that
> speed? If so does that affect surface finish? Obviously the feed per rev
> is not changing.
> What is considered to be the main reason for wanting CSS when facing,
> efficiency or surface finish.
> Richard
>
>
--
Clausing 8520, Craftsman 12x36 Lathe, 4x12 mini lathe, 14" Delta drill press, 40 watt laser, Consew brushless DC motors and a non working 3D printer
|
John those are set spindle speeds, I think CSS is looking for variable speeds.
Ralph
On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 2:56 AM John Dammeyer < johnd@...> wrote: I'd say surface finish.? If you clamp a casting onto your face plate and run the tool across it you'll see various patterns as the SFM changes.? Take that same casting and use a fly cutter on your mill with a power feed and when you are on the 'sweet' spot the surface is beautiful.
I think when facing you get smooth cutting and then tearing etc.
Now, about spindle speeds.? My Unimat DB-200 is rated from 375? to? 9200? RPM.? When turning tiny watch parts or other intricate mechanisms those items almost always need to be turned at pretty high speeds even with HSS tooling.? ? Even the Sherline can go from 70-2800 and I think with appropriate pulleys even faster.
For example.
200 sfm for brass (say a clock or watch movement) and 0.125" diameter you need 6112 RPM.? Move up to 0.375 and the RPM drops to 2037.? And apparently if you use carbide speeds can be up to 4x faster.
I don't think anyone will use a 14" lathe to turn large numbers of 0.125" parts but that last 0.375" diameter when facing does need to be as fast as possible.
John
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Richard
> Sent: February-25-20 11:07 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [digitalhobbyist] CSS questions #CSS
>
> Constant Surface Speed has been mentioned a few times on this and other
> groups. Whilst I am fully aware of what it is I am not aware of how it
> is handled in the real world.
> Surfacing in Z is not a big problem however surfacing in X generates a
> big question.
> If I am facing an aluminium disk say 150mm diameter from out to in with
> a carbide tool, I or the system can determine the initial rpm to start
> the cut (based on surface speed and diameter) and then the system can
> ramp up the speed as the tool moves further in, But what happens when
> the max speed of the spindle is reached? Does it just carry on at that
> speed? If so does that affect surface finish? Obviously the feed per rev
> is not changing.
> What is considered to be the main reason for wanting CSS when facing,
> efficiency or surface finish.
> Richard
>
>
--
Clausing 8520, Craftsman 12x36 Lathe, 4x12 mini lathe, 14" Delta drill press, 40 watt laser, Consew brushless DC motors and a non working 3D printer
|
Richard with my Consew Brushless DC motor install on my lathe I will have (easy) programagic control over spindle speed. I "should" be able to implement CSS. I will l be using a DS1803 digital potentiometer?and Arduino Mega, actually I could use any micro processor or even a computer.?
I will "probably" (ha) need programming help.
So I (we) should be able to answer lots of questions concerning?CSS but I should also be able to vary the speed for threading and turning.?
I will also be measuring Amps on my motor so I could "theoretically" be programagically watching motor load.
The possibilities are really interesting . Ralph?
On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 2:07 AM Richard < edelec@...> wrote: Constant Surface Speed has been mentioned a few times on this and other
groups. Whilst I am fully aware of what it is I am not aware of how it
is handled in the real world.
Surfacing in Z is not a big problem however surfacing in X generates a
big question.
If I am facing an aluminium disk say 150mm diameter from out to in with
a carbide tool, I or the system can determine the initial rpm to start
the cut (based on surface speed and diameter) and then the system can
ramp up the speed as the tool moves further in, But what happens when
the max speed of the spindle is reached? Does it just carry on at that
speed? If so does that affect surface finish? Obviously the feed per rev
is not changing.
What is considered to be the main reason for wanting CSS when facing,
efficiency or surface finish.
Richard
--
Clausing 8520, Craftsman 12x36 Lathe, 4x12 mini lathe, 14" Delta drill press, 40 watt laser, Consew brushless DC motors and a non working 3D printer
|
I'd say surface finish. If you clamp a casting onto your face plate and run the tool across it you'll see various patterns as the SFM changes. Take that same casting and use a fly cutter on your mill with a power feed and when you are on the 'sweet' spot the surface is beautiful.
I think when facing you get smooth cutting and then tearing etc.
Now, about spindle speeds. My Unimat DB-200 is rated from 375 to 9200 RPM. When turning tiny watch parts or other intricate mechanisms those items almost always need to be turned at pretty high speeds even with HSS tooling. Even the Sherline can go from 70-2800 and I think with appropriate pulleys even faster.
For example.
200 sfm for brass (say a clock or watch movement) and 0.125" diameter you need 6112 RPM. Move up to 0.375 and the RPM drops to 2037. And apparently if you use carbide speeds can be up to 4x faster.
I don't think anyone will use a 14" lathe to turn large numbers of 0.125" parts but that last 0.375" diameter when facing does need to be as fast as possible.
John
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-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Richard
Sent: February-25-20 11:07 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [digitalhobbyist] CSS questions #CSS
Constant Surface Speed has been mentioned a few times on this and other
groups. Whilst I am fully aware of what it is I am not aware of how it
is handled in the real world.
Surfacing in Z is not a big problem however surfacing in X generates a
big question.
If I am facing an aluminium disk say 150mm diameter from out to in with
a carbide tool, I or the system can determine the initial rpm to start
the cut (based on surface speed and diameter) and then the system can
ramp up the speed as the tool moves further in, But what happens when
the max speed of the spindle is reached? Does it just carry on at that
speed? If so does that affect surface finish? Obviously the feed per rev
is not changing.
What is considered to be the main reason for wanting CSS when facing,
efficiency or surface finish.
Richard
|
Constant Surface Speed has been mentioned a few times on this and other
groups. Whilst I am fully aware of what it is I am not aware of how it
is handled in the real world.
Surfacing in Z is not a big problem however surfacing in X generates a
big question.
If I am facing an aluminium disk say 150mm diameter from out to in with
a carbide tool, I or the system can determine the initial rpm to start
the cut (based on surface speed and diameter) and then the system can
ramp up the speed as the tool moves further in, But what happens when
the max speed of the spindle is reached? Does it just carry on at that
speed? If so does that affect surface finish? Obviously the feed per rev
is not changing.
What is considered to be the main reason for wanting CSS when facing,
efficiency or surface finish.
Richard
|
Re: RELS Parts info
#RELS
P
Hi Peter?
Totally agree with you reference the change gear hassle, the "Warco" I believe is a Real Bull under a different badge,?
which I now believe "Optimum" may have taken over ? not sure but certainly Warco were not based on the Sieg machines,
With the added on RELS I removed the compound slide, not necessary even when screw cutting.?
Added a new riser block and the toolpost attaches to this, and certainly removed half of the silly constant gib screw adjustments on the compound slide.
I think at the end of the day, ELS versus RELS is arbitrary, but the rewards for those who are thinking taking the plunge, go for it.
Do you pay the ferry man before or crossing the river, you pay at the end of the day.
I am currently building another RELS from scratch, I am paranoid about not having spare parts, LOL., but I must say my RELS is now 2 years old and behaves every day without a problem.
I can honestly say, the procurement of RELS parts from China is so easy, basically all common electronic parts, and if you are willing to be patient,?
shipping costs to Spain for me = ZERO, I really can?t say that about procurement from the UK and USA. NOTE.? Shipping delays from China are inevitable with the current virus that?s?
effecting the world.?
Also I understand it?s not possible for John D? to eat the shipping costs of procurement of new parts and customer dispatch, and naturally adds on a small profit,
or else why would he bother ? but for me my hobbies have a max budget, ask my wife LOL.
I certainly could not justify the USA postal charges. Currently $17 for a single Int registered envelope to Spain. Oh well.
Even better if you a 3D printer to make and customize the various control boxes that are necessary.?
Nice to see this forum is alive with good debates about RELS and ELS, and as the original member I enjoy this forum that?s really coming alive with new members
?joining daily. Thanks and a well done to you all.
Remember we have numerous other # Topics all up for discussion, take a peek, if you need a new # Topic added then drop me a line and we will consider and possibly accommodate.
Any member that wants to throw in the odd advert or link that?s assists in procurement of digital hobbyist? parts for members then this is not a problem.
--
John
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Re: RELS Parts info
#RELS
I also run the Auto Artisans ELS and have been very pleased with it and use it daily on my U.K. Warco lathe. Saves messing about with those messy changewheels plus many other advantages. Thank you John. Peter Farmer.
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On 24 Feb 2020, at 23:47, Bob T <zs6bxi@...> wrote:
? Hi to all, I just wanted to add a couple of comments to Johns reply.? I have two of Johns ELS boards. The first one (on my Boxford) was a very early one, and the second one only a year or so old (mounted on my MD65 pratzi). I blew the first one up and needed Johns help to get running again, so I can confirm Johns support level. I also remember those early days when the concept of of an ELS doing threading was an exotic thing. The ELS board is a very nice practical thing that just simply works. As has been said most of the work is in doing the mechanical and stepper motor interface (I still haven’t got my cross slide working on the Boxford yet ) The ELS allows one to fully set up the machine from the operator interface (ok there are a couple of links on the board as well) and I haven’t had to go near the software yet. My milling machine now needs some kind of stepper drive to it and is the main reason I have been lurking here on this site (with great interest). Regards Bob On 25 Feb 2020, at 07:50, John Dammeyer <johnd@...> wrote:
? Hi Charlie, The ELS was developed on the E-Leadscrew group as a collaborative effort and is 100% open source. ?In? fact it started out with a surface mount processor and single axis control with built in micro-stepper.? With much support from the group it was expanded to have two axis control including a wide variety of tapering profiles and the desire of the members to have a 40 pin DIP socket for easy replacement or upgrade.? ? The first 50 units were sold at cost.? The rest sell for $200 to cover the cost of now more expensive parts due to a low Canadian dollar.? ?Next the LMD18245 Stepper Driver chips went up in price to the point where now far east modules cost less than the chips.? And the bottom plate can't be inexpensively manufactured anymore because the original company that made them is no longer around.? ? ? My ELS has always been a kit for a hobby market. ?Never sold a box for it. I've come up with an innovative method of making keypad covers and legends that many of the users have made.? ? The ELS was also designed to make it easy to move the parallel port DB-25 that attaches to a users's Break Out Board from the ELS to a PC to switch over easily to MACH3 for that occasional CNC project that needs more than the ELS.? (in fact I first tested it with MACH2) ? I'm sure when you blow up your stepper motor driver or processor board or LCD screen that the Chinese manufacturer will replace it at no charge? ?My ELS has a lifetime warranty if you tell me how you broke it.? I replaced one where the end user smoked the traces off the stepper motor driver section after he accidentally hooked up his DC power backwards.? I sent him a new one for the cost of shipping.? ? Given that my ELS has been around for more than a decade and that any google or youtube search creates all sorts of hits I'm surprised you think it's a commercial product or not targeted at hobby users. ?Users on the MACH CNC groups and the LinuxCNC groups are all familiar with my poduct. ? ? Since the programmer circuit is on board anyone can download the free Microchip C compiler and modify the source code.? In fact if you were to look at the source code you'd see that one of the E-Leadscrew members even made modifications to improve certain behaviours. ?I've supported anyone who wants to make changes as it's also well documented. ? I'm all for these different projects but I'm not fond of misinformation about them. ? John Dammeyer "ELS! Nothing else works as well for your Lathe" Automation Artisans Inc. www dot autoartisans dot com ? ? ? ? ? ? Just to add my two cents worth...
I think we are comparing two different systems here. RELS was designed to make it fairly easy for a hobbyist to construct, modify, and upgrade a system themselves with relatively little investment, other than time. ELS was designed as a commercial system that is available for sale. (I have no idea at what price, and am not looking to denigrate it in any way.)
RELS gives a hobbyist a lot of flexibility, in that he can easily alter the Arduino program to accomplish what he needs to accomplish, and to add desired features, such as the ability to cut MT tapers automatically, and to cut uncommon thread pitches. It currently used a 16 x 2 alphanumeric LCD display, a low-cost, easily available display for hobbyists. Due to the open source program, a larger display or larger keypad could be integrated, if a user so desired and had the programming and technical talents.
ELS, as I understand it, endeavors to be as complete as possible. I assume that the code is not open source. (Commercial code virtually never is.) ELS is intended to be a solution that needs only be integrated into the lathe, once purchased; the electronics and software are all taken care of. Hook up the power supply, drivers, and motors with the ELS and you're ready to go. It is not intended to be modified by its users. I think I have this right. I apologize in advance if I am wrong.
The original designers of both products have made decisions based on their different target markets. I think it's up to a user to decide if they are OK with any compromises in exchange for the benefits in the case of both products.
At the end of the day, it's up to the user. At any rate, that's my opinion.?Happy machining!
--
Regards,
Charlie
New Jersey, USA LAW OF ANNOYANCE: When working on a project, if you put away a tool that you’re certain you’re finished with, you will need it instantly.
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Re: RELS Parts info
#RELS
Forgot to add. RELS and CNC
The DDCS CNC controller can also be used on my Real Bull mini lathe, utilizing only the X and Z axis movements of the 4? axis.
Just swap out the 2 x stepper motor wires off the mill using Q/R aircraft plugs and connect to the lathe.
There are 4 x pre loaded files in the CNC controller, Mill metric, Mill Imperial, Lathe metric, Lathe imperial.
these contain the necessary different output settings to the stepper motors. Predominantly lead screw differences.
By having these options available to me? allows for example , to automatically convert the lathe to CNC and? "hands free" reduce bar diameters, or face?
and or produce cones. So both my mill and lathe will happily accept the use of g codes. Admit I still have some problems with producing spheres, but that is an issue
with me and the CAD program. Also I have as yet not considered CNC screw cutting on the lathe but possible. Back burner work for me.
By default I currently use on the lathe a RELS system, it?s been working now on a regular daily basis for 2 years, and never let me down, so simple to use and
quick, there is not a lot of paging through the menus, all very basic, feed, tapers, and screw cutting, what also is there,?
Addictions for example to introduce a new thread style or pitch, only takes minutes and it?s then in memory permanently. and auto screw cutting is very useful.
Richard UK built the Arduino based system for me.
Currently the mill has DRO?s fitted, these were used before my CNC conversion, now these are basically redundant, as I read movements directly off the CNC screen.
and with a MPG ( Manual pulse generator) the mill can behave as a standard manual machine.
Backlash settings and soft stops are also part of the CNC "main parameters".
Hope of interest.
--
John
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Dedicated CNC controllers -- was RE: [digitalhobbyist] RELS Parts info
#CNC
Hi John, I looked into these after you mentioned them another time. ??I'm not sure with my eyesight I'd like the small low resolution screen. ? ? The other issue is more related to my system than a standard stepper system run with Gecko's or far east stepper drives. The DC/AC Servo systems fault out if the HV isn't there. ?And an ESTOP gets rid of the HV for safety.? ? The problem I've run into with both MACH3 and LinuxCNC is the system enable output when tied to releasing the ESTOP.? The enable which I have on PIN1 of the DB-25 tends to active once the ESTOP is released.? The problem is that the high voltage isn't there yet so the servo's are enabled? and then fault because HV is missing which then causes an ESTOP.? Which gets rid of the HV… ? I got around the problem using a small 8 pin PIC 12F series processor although just about any small module like an Ardunio etc would do. ?Even extra inputs into the HAL file for LinuxCNC could probably add time delays. ? So how do these systems deal with ESTOP?? It should be a normally closed circuit and either N/C Big Red Mushroom switches and the N/C contacts of relays controlled by a FAULT signal from a drive should all create that ESTOP event.? ? Now when it's undone is there an enable that can go back out and switch on high voltage to the drives?? Or is the enable tied to the ESTOP input signal? ? Thanks John Dammeyer ? ? ? ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Lindo
Sent: February-24-20 8:31 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] RELS Parts info? 18 months ago I converted my Weiss mini mill to 4 axis CNC .
The? DDCS type CNC controllers out of China IMHO are well worth the modest expenditure.
For approx $250 including steppers and drivers the hobbyist can enjoy the benefits of 3 axis CNC milling, 4 th axis is available
in the controller as standard.
Naturally mechanical connections and modifications to the mill are necessary , but this is part of the enjoyment of hobby machining.
The technical support out of China is second to none, and have there own dedicated forum and use of Facebook.
New software versions are constantly available as they add on and improve, and easy to install using a USB stick.
I will gladly supply more CNC Mill conversion info under the correct forum using # CNC
Suggest members interested individually download the pdf manual of some 80 pages and reply your comments to the forum.
I have posted only the front page of the pdf file, as to much usage of valuable forum memory use.
Thanks
--
John
|
Re: RELS Parts info
#RELS
18 months ago I converted my Weiss mini mill to 4 axis CNC .
The? DDCS type CNC controllers out of China IMHO are well worth the modest expenditure.
For approx $250 including steppers and drivers the hobbyist can enjoy the benefits of 3 axis CNC milling, 4 th axis is available
in the controller as standard.
Naturally mechanical connections and modifications to the mill are necessary , but this is part of the enjoyment of hobby machining.
The technical support out of China is second to none, and have there own dedicated forum and use of Facebook.
New software versions are constantly available as they add on and improve, and easy to install using a USB stick.
I will gladly supply more CNC Mill conversion info under the correct forum using # CNC
Suggest members interested individually download the pdf manual of some 80 pages and reply your comments to the forum.
I have posted only the front page of the pdf file, as to much usage of valuable forum memory use.
Thanks
--
John
|
Re: RELS Parts info
#RELS
Hi Bob, ? Backlash is a fascinating subject. ?Playing around with LinuxCNC on the same machine as MACH3 shows how different their backlash handling is.? One takes it out first, then moves.? The other takes it out at the end of the move.? I'm writing this from memory but I think MACH does it at the end.? I'll have to go check and report back on that. ? My ELS does it at the beginning of the move.? Which can be disconcerting if you bump the MPG knob back in the other direction after turning it say 5 clicks and then accidentally one click back in the other direction.? So it moves 0.005", then the motor moves back 0.025" plus 0.001" for the very worn half nut on the South Bend.? Just disconcerting.? ? I think LinuxCNC even favours one side so if you move to the right then at the end of the move the backlash is taken out as the system moves the leadscrew back in the other direction.??? But I could have been imagining that.? Didn't really pay a lot of attention. ? If you are directly coupled to a 5 TPI lead screw then at 200 step per rev gives you 0.001" per step and that's repeatable.? Even half steps tend to be pretty repeatable so you could say the system has a precision of 0.0005".? If you want better than that you have two options. ?One is, as you mentioned a reduction drive belt system.? Or use a DC servo with a hi res encoder.? A motor with 1000 lines with quadrature decoding gives you 4000 steps per rev.? ? John ? ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bob T
Sent: February-24-20 4:50 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] RELS Parts info? Hi John, ??????????????????????? you are speaking to the converted! That’s exactly where I want to go! Well....at least two axis anyway. It would be nice to have backlash take-up as well. And of course to be able to go to software stops with one speed for machining and another for fast return....Perhaps I just need another ELS Hi! I remember the early days, and as you say the Mach 2/3 people were quite loud. Computor’s/ laptops and screens are too expensive and fragile (oil and swarf are a bad combination) to live permanently in a workshop like mine. I suppose if I did all of my machining dry then it might be better. A few casual measurements with my Pbatzimat M65 on the cross feed (which has a stepper motor connected directly to the end of the screw) gave me a better understanding of the 5% position accuracy of a “standard” stepper motor on micro stepping. If I’m going to do anything really accurate its going to be a 5:1 reduction at least from the stepper to the axis drive. So I have resolved to use a proper DRO read out on milling machines with as you say hole centres and arrays coming for free. My Bomatic sino DRO with 5 micron (SIC) resolution works very well. So its just the drives to the axises that I’m lacking. I am trying a windscreen wiper motor at the present but frankly its minimum speed is just a little too fast for good final machining.
On 25 Feb 2020, at 10:05, John Dammeyer <johnd@...> wrote: ? Thanks Bob, I've been having a déjà vu discussion on the EMC Linux group that is very similar to the one we had back on the CAD CAM DRO group before we spun off into E-Leadscrew. ? The resistance against an ELS was nothing short of amazing.? Why bother!? Just install MACH2(3) and be done with it!? One member even made a simple ELS with a couple of buttons, an encoder knob and an LCD display.?? What people wanted though was something beyond manual but not with a CNC feel. ? Lately, as I modify my mill to be CNC I'm seeing the same discussions again.? I have it set to dual boot MACH3 or LinuxCNC.? I can run both off the parallel port although the LinuxCNC system can't step as fast as the MACH3 system can.? I did buy a MESA 7i92H to use Ethernet to Parallel and it works well.? I have a USB Smoothstepper on the CNC Router so I have also used that with MACH. ? Anyway.? I have proposed, to much resistance, that perhaps it's time to make a box that operates without CNC.? Essentially power feed for all three (or 4 or 5) axis with BEGIN/END positions for each and DROs for each axis.? Ability to deal with limit switches and home switches but no CNC behaviour other than the guiding that you get from something like a Shumatech DRO-350 or 550 for hole centers or array of holes. ? So you might say a souped up ELS for a mill.? But with one additional feature.? An Ethernet port compatible with say the MESA 7i92H board and maybe even with the Ethernet Smooth Stepper. ? So your run your mill the way it's always been run with a DRO and perhaps a single axis power feed but now you have all three axis powerfeeding and a DRO on each.? Could take it one step further and even input from DRO devices instead of using the open loop stepper driver or feedback from a Servo Motor.? And when you want, plug in that Ethernet cable from a Raspberry Pi4 or Beaglebone Black and run full LinuxCNC.? Maybe run LinuxCNC all the time.? Maybe not. ? Like on the CAD CAM DRO group there is no interest since the claim is you can do everything already with LinuxCNC.? So why bother?? And there's quite a disparity in quantities when asked about how many milling machines people think are out there that do not have CNC.? ? ? So why doesn't everyone have CNC on their mill? ? John Dammeyer ? ? ? ? ? Hi to all, ??????????????????????? I just wanted to add a couple of comments to Johns reply.? I have two of Johns ELS boards. The first one (on my Boxford) was a very early one, and the second one only a year or so old (mounted on my MD65 pratzi). I blew the first one up and needed Johns help to get running again, so I can confirm Johns support level. I also remember those early days when the concept of of an ELS doing threading was an exotic thing. The ELS board is a very nice practical thing that just simply works. As has been said most of the work is in doing the mechanical and stepper motor interface (I still haven’t got my cross slide working on the Boxford yet ) The ELS allows one to fully set up the machine from the operator interface (ok there are a couple of links on the board as well) and I haven’t had to go near the software yet. My milling machine now needs some kind of stepper drive to it and is the main reason I have been lurking here on this site (with great interest).
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Re: RELS Parts info
#RELS
Hi John, you are speaking to the converted! That’s exactly where I want to go! Well....at least two axis anyway. It would be nice to have backlash take-up as well. And of course to be able to go to software stops with one speed for machining and another for fast return....Perhaps I just need another ELS Hi! I remember the early days, and as you say the Mach 2/3 people were quite loud. Computor’s/ laptops and screens are too expensive and fragile (oil and swarf are a bad combination) to live permanently in a workshop like mine. I suppose if I did all of my machining dry then it might be better. A few casual measurements with my Pbatzimat M65 on the cross feed (which has a stepper motor connected directly to the end of the screw) gave me a better understanding of the 5% position accuracy of a “standard” stepper motor on micro stepping. If I’m going to do anything really accurate its going to be a 5:1 reduction at least from the stepper to the axis drive. So I have resolved to use a proper DRO read out on milling machines with as you say hole centres and arrays coming for free. My Bomatic sino DRO with 5 micron (SIC) resolution works very well. So its just the drives to the axises that I’m lacking. I am trying a windscreen wiper motor at the present but frankly its minimum speed is just a little too fast for good final machining. Regards Bob
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On 25 Feb 2020, at 10:05, John Dammeyer <johnd@...> wrote:
? Thanks Bob, I've been having a déjà vu discussion on the EMC Linux group that is very similar to the one we had back on the CAD CAM DRO group before we spun off into E-Leadscrew. ? The resistance against an ELS was nothing short of amazing.? Why bother!? Just install MACH2(3) and be done with it!? One member even made a simple ELS with a couple of buttons, an encoder knob and an LCD display. ??What people wanted though was something beyond manual but not with a CNC feel. ? Lately, as I modify my mill to be CNC I'm seeing the same discussions again.? I have it set to dual boot MACH3 or LinuxCNC.? I can run both off the parallel port although the LinuxCNC system can't step as fast as the MACH3 system can.? I did buy a MESA 7i92H to use Ethernet to Parallel and it works well.? I have a USB Smoothstepper on the CNC Router so I have also used that with MACH. ? Anyway.? I have proposed, to much resistance, that perhaps it's time to make a box that operates without CNC.? Essentially power feed for all three (or 4 or 5) axis with BEGIN/END positions for each and DROs for each axis. ?Ability to deal with limit switches and home switches but no CNC behaviour other than the guiding that you get from something like a Shumatech DRO-350 or 550 for hole centers or array of holes. ? So you might say a souped up ELS for a mill.? But with one additional feature.? An Ethernet port compatible with say the MESA 7i92H board and maybe even with the Ethernet Smooth Stepper. ? So your run your mill the way it's always been run with a DRO and perhaps a single axis power feed but now you have all three axis powerfeeding and a DRO on each.? Could take it one step further and even input from DRO devices instead of using the open loop stepper driver or feedback from a Servo Motor.? And when you want, plug in that Ethernet cable from a Raspberry Pi4 or Beaglebone Black and run full LinuxCNC.? Maybe run LinuxCNC all the time.? Maybe not. ? Like on the CAD CAM DRO group there is no interest since the claim is you can do everything already with LinuxCNC.? So why bother?? And there's quite a disparity in quantities when asked about how many milling machines people think are out there that do not have CNC.?? ? So why doesn't everyone have CNC on their mill? ? John Dammeyer ? ? ? ? ? Hi to all, ??????????????????????? I just wanted to add a couple of comments to Johns reply.? I have two of Johns ELS boards. The first one (on my Boxford) was a very early one, and the second one only a year or so old (mounted on my MD65 pratzi). I blew the first one up and needed Johns help to get running again, so I can confirm Johns support level. I also remember those early days when the concept of of an ELS doing threading was an exotic thing. The ELS board is a very nice practical thing that just simply works. As has been said most of the work is in doing the mechanical and stepper motor interface (I still haven’t got my cross slide working on the Boxford yet ) The ELS allows one to fully set up the machine from the operator interface (ok there are a couple of links on the board as well) and I haven’t had to go near the software yet. My milling machine now needs some kind of stepper drive to it and is the main reason I have been lurking here on this site (with great interest).
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Re: RELS Parts info
#RELS
Thanks... -- Regards, Charlie New Jersey, USA
LAW OF ANNOYANCE: When working on a project, if you put away a tool that you’re certain you’re finished with, you will need it instantly.
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Re: RELS Parts info
#RELS
Thanks Bob, I've been having a déjà vu discussion on the EMC Linux group that is very similar to the one we had back on the CAD CAM DRO group before we spun off into E-Leadscrew. ? The resistance against an ELS was nothing short of amazing.? Why bother!? Just install MACH2(3) and be done with it!? One member even made a simple ELS with a couple of buttons, an encoder knob and an LCD display. ??What people wanted though was something beyond manual but not with a CNC feel. ? Lately, as I modify my mill to be CNC I'm seeing the same discussions again.? I have it set to dual boot MACH3 or LinuxCNC.? I can run both off the parallel port although the LinuxCNC system can't step as fast as the MACH3 system can.? I did buy a MESA 7i92H to use Ethernet to Parallel and it works well.? I have a USB Smoothstepper on the CNC Router so I have also used that with MACH. ? Anyway.? I have proposed, to much resistance, that perhaps it's time to make a box that operates without CNC.? Essentially power feed for all three (or 4 or 5) axis with BEGIN/END positions for each and DROs for each axis. ?Ability to deal with limit switches and home switches but no CNC behaviour other than the guiding that you get from something like a Shumatech DRO-350 or 550 for hole centers or array of holes. ? So you might say a souped up ELS for a mill.? But with one additional feature.? An Ethernet port compatible with say the MESA 7i92H board and maybe even with the Ethernet Smooth Stepper. ? So your run your mill the way it's always been run with a DRO and perhaps a single axis power feed but now you have all three axis powerfeeding and a DRO on each.? Could take it one step further and even input from DRO devices instead of using the open loop stepper driver or feedback from a Servo Motor.? And when you want, plug in that Ethernet cable from a Raspberry Pi4 or Beaglebone Black and run full LinuxCNC.? Maybe run LinuxCNC all the time.? Maybe not. ? Like on the CAD CAM DRO group there is no interest since the claim is you can do everything already with LinuxCNC.? So why bother?? And there's quite a disparity in quantities when asked about how many milling machines people think are out there that do not have CNC.?? ? So why doesn't everyone have CNC on their mill? ? John Dammeyer ? ? ? ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bob T
Sent: February-24-20 3:38 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] RELS Parts info? Hi to all, ??????????????????????? I just wanted to add a couple of comments to Johns reply.? I have two of Johns ELS boards. The first one (on my Boxford) was a very early one, and the second one only a year or so old (mounted on my MD65 pratzi). I blew the first one up and needed Johns help to get running again, so I can confirm Johns support level. I also remember those early days when the concept of of an ELS doing threading was an exotic thing. The ELS board is a very nice practical thing that just simply works. As has been said most of the work is in doing the mechanical and stepper motor interface (I still haven’t got my cross slide working on the Boxford yet ) The ELS allows one to fully set up the machine from the operator interface (ok there are a couple of links on the board as well) and I haven’t had to go near the software yet. My milling machine now needs some kind of stepper drive to it and is the main reason I have been lurking here on this site (with great interest).
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Re: RELS Parts info
#RELS
Sorry, forgot my URL for this; ? John Dammeyer
? ? ? ? ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Dammeyer
Sent: February-24-20 3:36 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] RELS Parts info? Click on Electronic Lead Screw Source Code.? It's also on the E-Leadscrew groups.io? site. ? There was even source code published with an article I had published in Circuit Cellar Magazine back in 2006.? But I believe you need a digital subscription to access the back issues. ? I had to order about $700 worth of parts last week to be able to complete the next set of partial kits I have in stock.? In the process I was looking at the original spreadsheet I made up (to get part numbers and then figure out what parts to use for ones that had been discontinued) and it was well over $20,000 invested.? Needless to say the first 100 kits that sold between $150 and $200 only served to recoup my investment.? Even now I'll have to sell 3 kits just to recover the cost of parts I bought for the next 10 although I did by extra sockets etc. for the next 25.??? For example the 40 pin socket isn't cheap;.? it's a machined pin one. ? In the near future I'll be using the ds30 loader software and the built in RS232 port for firmware upgrade.? All a user will need to do is solder in a small 3 pin header and connect to a DB-9 for standard PC pinout.? That RS232 port provides diagnostics and was going to be used for Modbus control of VFDs but at the time there weren't enough people using VFDs on their lathes to make it worthwhile.? ? Can you imagine a large 3 phase motor with a VFD on a small Sherline trying to turn it up to 6000 RPM?? ? ? ? ? Hi, John,
I understood from the fact that you are selling them that it was, by definition, a commercial product. If that's not the case, my apologies. It was not my intention to spread "misinformation", which is why I said, "?I think I have this right. I apologize in advance if I am wrong."?
You now have me curious about the code. As it is open source, where can I download it to take a peek?
--
Regards,
Charlie
New Jersey, USA LAW OF ANNOYANCE: When working on a project, if you put away a tool that you’re certain you’re finished with, you will need it instantly.
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Re: RELS Parts info
#RELS
Hi to all, I just wanted to add a couple of comments to Johns reply.? I have two of Johns ELS boards. The first one (on my Boxford) was a very early one, and the second one only a year or so old (mounted on my MD65 pratzi). I blew the first one up and needed Johns help to get running again, so I can confirm Johns support level. I also remember those early days when the concept of of an ELS doing threading was an exotic thing. The ELS board is a very nice practical thing that just simply works. As has been said most of the work is in doing the mechanical and stepper motor interface (I still haven’t got my cross slide working on the Boxford yet ) The ELS allows one to fully set up the machine from the operator interface (ok there are a couple of links on the board as well) and I haven’t had to go near the software yet. My milling machine now needs some kind of stepper drive to it and is the main reason I have been lurking here on this site (with great interest). Regards Bob
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On 25 Feb 2020, at 07:50, John Dammeyer <johnd@...> wrote:
? Hi Charlie, The ELS was developed on the E-Leadscrew group as a collaborative effort and is 100% open source. ?In? fact it started out with a surface mount processor and single axis control with built in micro-stepper.? With much support from the group it was expanded to have two axis control including a wide variety of tapering profiles and the desire of the members to have a 40 pin DIP socket for easy replacement or upgrade.? ? The first 50 units were sold at cost.? The rest sell for $200 to cover the cost of now more expensive parts due to a low Canadian dollar.? ?Next the LMD18245 Stepper Driver chips went up in price to the point where now far east modules cost less than the chips.? And the bottom plate can't be inexpensively manufactured anymore because the original company that made them is no longer around.? ? ? My ELS has always been a kit for a hobby market. ?Never sold a box for it. I've come up with an innovative method of making keypad covers and legends that many of the users have made.? ? The ELS was also designed to make it easy to move the parallel port DB-25 that attaches to a users's Break Out Board from the ELS to a PC to switch over easily to MACH3 for that occasional CNC project that needs more than the ELS.? (in fact I first tested it with MACH2) ? I'm sure when you blow up your stepper motor driver or processor board or LCD screen that the Chinese manufacturer will replace it at no charge? ?My ELS has a lifetime warranty if you tell me how you broke it.? I replaced one where the end user smoked the traces off the stepper motor driver section after he accidentally hooked up his DC power backwards.? I sent him a new one for the cost of shipping.? ? Given that my ELS has been around for more than a decade and that any google or youtube search creates all sorts of hits I'm surprised you think it's a commercial product or not targeted at hobby users. ?Users on the MACH CNC groups and the LinuxCNC groups are all familiar with my poduct. ? ? Since the programmer circuit is on board anyone can download the free Microchip C compiler and modify the source code.? In fact if you were to look at the source code you'd see that one of the E-Leadscrew members even made modifications to improve certain behaviours. ?I've supported anyone who wants to make changes as it's also well documented. ? I'm all for these different projects but I'm not fond of misinformation about them. ? John Dammeyer "ELS! Nothing else works as well for your Lathe" Automation Artisans Inc. www dot autoartisans dot com ? ? ? ? ? ? Just to add my two cents worth...
I think we are comparing two different systems here. RELS was designed to make it fairly easy for a hobbyist to construct, modify, and upgrade a system themselves with relatively little investment, other than time. ELS was designed as a commercial system that is available for sale. (I have no idea at what price, and am not looking to denigrate it in any way.)
RELS gives a hobbyist a lot of flexibility, in that he can easily alter the Arduino program to accomplish what he needs to accomplish, and to add desired features, such as the ability to cut MT tapers automatically, and to cut uncommon thread pitches. It currently used a 16 x 2 alphanumeric LCD display, a low-cost, easily available display for hobbyists. Due to the open source program, a larger display or larger keypad could be integrated, if a user so desired and had the programming and technical talents.
ELS, as I understand it, endeavors to be as complete as possible. I assume that the code is not open source. (Commercial code virtually never is.) ELS is intended to be a solution that needs only be integrated into the lathe, once purchased; the electronics and software are all taken care of. Hook up the power supply, drivers, and motors with the ELS and you're ready to go. It is not intended to be modified by its users. I think I have this right. I apologize in advance if I am wrong.
The original designers of both products have made decisions based on their different target markets. I think it's up to a user to decide if they are OK with any compromises in exchange for the benefits in the case of both products.
At the end of the day, it's up to the user. At any rate, that's my opinion.?Happy machining!
--
Regards,
Charlie
New Jersey, USA LAW OF ANNOYANCE: When working on a project, if you put away a tool that you’re certain you’re finished with, you will need it instantly.
|
Re: RELS Parts info
#RELS
Click on Electronic Lead Screw Source Code.? It's also on the E-Leadscrew groups.io ?site. ? There was even source code published with an article I had published in Circuit Cellar Magazine back in 2006.? But I believe you need a digital subscription to access the back issues. ? I had to order about $700 worth of parts last week to be able to complete the next set of partial kits I have in stock.? In the process I was looking at the original spreadsheet I made up (to get part numbers and then figure out what parts to use for ones that had been discontinued) and it was well over $20,000 invested.? Needless to say the first 100 kits that sold between $150 and $200 only served to recoup my investment.? Even now I'll have to sell 3 kits just to recover the cost of parts I bought for the next 10 although I did by extra sockets etc. for the next 25.? ??For example the 40 pin socket isn't cheap;.? it's a machined pin one. ? In the near future I'll be using the ds30 loader software and the built in RS232 port for firmware upgrade.? All a user will need to do is solder in a small 3 pin header and connect to a DB-9 for standard PC pinout.? That RS232 port provides diagnostics and was going to be used for Modbus control of VFDs but at the time there weren't enough people using VFDs on their lathes to make it worthwhile.? ? Can you imagine a large 3 phase motor with a VFD on a small Sherline trying to turn it up to 6000 RPM?? ? ? ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of CLevinski
Sent: February-24-20 2:17 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] RELS Parts info? Hi, John,
I understood from the fact that you are selling them that it was, by definition, a commercial product. If that's not the case, my apologies. It was not my intention to spread "misinformation", which is why I said, "?I think I have this right. I apologize in advance if I am wrong."?
You now have me curious about the code. As it is open source, where can I download it to take a peek?
--
Regards,
Charlie
New Jersey, USA LAW OF ANNOYANCE: When working on a project, if you put away a tool that you’re certain you’re finished with, you will need it instantly.
|
Re: RELS Parts info
#RELS
Hi, John, I understood from the fact that you are selling them that it was, by definition, a commercial product. If that's not the case, my apologies. It was not my intention to spread "misinformation", which is why I said, "?I think I have this right. I apologize in advance if I am wrong."? You now have me curious about the code. As it is open source, where can I download it to take a peek? -- Regards, Charlie New Jersey, USA
LAW OF ANNOYANCE: When working on a project, if you put away a tool that you’re certain you’re finished with, you will need it instantly.
|
John Lindo