Re: Pre-battle reconnaissance
I would agree with Big Al. The spotting rules we have are pretty good.
What you have suggested would be interesting but I would worry that it
will slow the game up and may mean that it may not be possible to both
brief and play the game in one evening and may mean that games would need
advance briefing and dispositions. This is not necessarily a bad thing
but seeing as some very inconsiderate people often say they will be there
next week and then aren't (perhaps beacuse their wife is going out or some
other poor excuse) then we may be left with a problem.
The counter aspect to this though, as touched on by Big Al, is that
forces on table need more of a reconnaissance make up to them. Mororcycle
combinations, a/cars, that kind of thing. Good fun but the problem here
is that you end up fighting the same, initial recon game each week, which
would not be much fun.
IABSM put much of the emphasis on the Umpire, and perhaps the umpire
also needs to play a more proactive role here, either by producing more
detailed briefs to the attacker of enemy positions (which does of course
mean that the defender gets very little option to dictate his own dispositions,
or by raising the profile of spotting for the attacker, perhaps with the
introduction of extra spotting cards for advancing troops (perhaps one
per big man?). This would at least make the attacker think about spotting
a little more. This is much more in keeping with the Lardy philosophy than
the seemingly convoluted system you are proposing. Trevor would never understand
it.
?
?
?
Alan Reynolds wrote:
?RichardWhat
sparked the thought?Was
it the fact that we have seen examples of attackers being thrown off balance
by some "unexpected" forces/dispositions, if so I might argue that better
use of existing spotting/reconnaissance rules would have served to eliminate
the unknown.Equally
tactical reconnaissance could be provided by an increase in this type of
force on the table, as you said last week providing the Germans with a
couple of 222's could have "tripped" the defensive line of the Brits.If
you are thinking "strategic" reconnaissance then it may well apply to both
the defender and attacker, depending on the situation.Normally
this is taken care of in the briefing notes but if you want to add an additional
phase of reconnaissance, should both defender and attacker have the chance
to benefit?Alan
Gents
A pre-battle reconnaissance system has just struck me, that would
allow for an attacker to have some prior knowledge of what he is
coming up against.
At the start of a game there is a facility for each force to dice
for
how many blinds it has.? This could also be used to allocate
an
attacker a certain number of pre-deployment spotting attempts.?
This
would reflect how much prior knowledge they have of their opponent.
For example as this chart currently stands good regulars have 1D6
number blinds.? Equally this could also reflect how many spotting
attempts they get before deciding on where to attack.
This would need to be adjusted for circumstances.? For example..
The force is strong in dedicated recce troops???????????
+2
The force has dedicated aerial recce to mission???????????
+1
The force has faced this enemy in relatively static
????? positions for a week or more.?????????????????
+2
The contact is relatively unexpected?????????????????
-2
The contact is entirely unexpected?????????????????
-4
Let us presume we have an element of 7 Panzer post the Meuse
crossing, so driving like hell through northern France.? The
force in
question may or may not benefit from aerial recce, depending on
its
mission.? Let's assume it doesn't as this would apply in most
circumstances.? It does, however, have a good recce troops
so gets a
+2 there.? Whilst contact is expected somewhere, this may
come at any
point, so becomes "relatively unexpected", a +2, giving us a net
result of 1D6.
On the tabletop the defender allocates troops as usual.? The
attacker
would sketch out a general plan at this stage, however, before
finally allocating his troops the attacker then rolls his D6.?
He
rolls a 4.? He now has four "spots" on the table before deciding
on
his plan.
For every spot the attacker rolls one dice.? If the target
area,
which would be 1 foot square (?) is within a foot of the point?
(or
any point if multiple) of attackers table entry the spot is
automatic.? If it is between 1 and 2 feet a 2 or more is needed
on a
D6; between 2 and 3 feet, a 3 or more is required, up to between
5
and 6 feet where a 6 is required.
For each unit "spotted" a blind is put down on the table.?
The
attacker then rolls a D6 for each of these blinds, and on a 6 the
actual defending figures are put down.? This reflects that
the recce
forces will more generally identify where an enemy is, rather than
what he is.
The attacker, with his fresh knowledge, may have five minute to
then
finalise his plans (after all contact has now been made, the enemy
are alerted).? For every minute over this five taken the defender
may
remove one of the spotted blinds and deploy elsewhere.? A
rather
nasty device to get the game started on time.
Any thoughts?
?
?
?
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Toofatlardies-unsubscribe@...
?
?
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Toofatlardies-unsubscribe@...
?
?
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .
?
|
Re: Pre-battle reconnaissance
Richard
?
What
sparked the thought?
?
Was it
the fact that we have seen examples of attackers being thrown off balance by
some "unexpected" forces/dispositions, if so I might argue that better use of
existing spotting/reconnaissance rules would have served to eliminate the
unknown.
Equally tactical reconnaissance could be provided by an increase in this
type of force on the table, as you said last week providing the Germans with a
couple of 222's could have "tripped" the defensive line of the
Brits.
If you
are thinking "strategic" reconnaissance then it may well apply to both the
defender and attacker, depending on the situation.
Normally this is taken care of in the briefing notes but if you want to
add an additional phase of reconnaissance, should both defender and attacker
have the chance to benefit?
?
Alan
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Gents
A pre-battle
reconnaissance system has just struck me, that would
allow for an attacker
to have some prior knowledge of what he is
coming up against.?
At the start of a game there is a facility for each force to dice for
how many blinds it has.? This could also be used to allocate an
attacker a certain number of pre-deployment spotting attempts.? This
would reflect how much prior knowledge they have of their opponent.?
For example as this chart currently stands good regulars have 1D6
number blinds.? Equally this could also reflect how many spotting
attempts they get before deciding on where to attack.
This would
need to be adjusted for circumstances.? For example…..
The force
is strong in dedicated recce troops?????
????? +2
The force has dedicated aerial recce to
mission????? ????? +1
The
force has faced this enemy in relatively
static
????? positions for a week or
more.????? ?????
????? +2
The contact is relatively
unexpected????? ?????
????? -2
The contact is entirely
unexpected????? ?????
????? -4
Let us presume we have an element of
7 Panzer post the Meuse
crossing, so driving like hell through northern
France.? The force in
question may or may not benefit from aerial
recce, depending on its
mission.? Let's assume it doesn't as this
would apply in most
circumstances.? It does, however, have a good
recce troops so gets a
+2 there.? Whilst contact is expected
somewhere, this may come at any
point, so becomes "relatively unexpected",
a +2, giving us a net
result of 1D6.?
On the tabletop the
defender allocates troops as usual.? The attacker
would sketch out a
general plan at this stage, however, before
finally allocating his troops
the attacker then rolls his D6.? He
rolls a 4.? He now has four
"spots" on the table before deciding on
his plan.?
For every
spot the attacker rolls one dice.? If the target area,
which would be
1 foot square (?) is within a foot of the point? (or
any point if
multiple) of attackers table entry the spot is
automatic.? If it is
between 1 and 2 feet a 2 or more is needed on a
D6; between 2 and 3 feet,
a 3 or more is required, up to between 5
and 6 feet where a 6 is
required.?
For each unit "spotted" a blind is put down on the
table.? The
attacker then rolls a D6 for each of these blinds, and on
a 6 the
actual defending figures are put down.? This reflects that
the recce
forces will more generally identify where an enemy is, rather
than
what he is.?
The attacker, with his fresh knowledge, may
have five minute to then
finalise his plans (after all contact has now
been made, the enemy
are alerted).? For every minute over this five
taken the defender may
remove one of the spotted blinds and deploy
elsewhere.? A rather
nasty device to get the game started on
time.?
Any thoughts?
To
unsubscribe from this group, send an email
to:
Toofatlardies-unsubscribe@...
Your
use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .
|
Pre-battle reconnaissance
Gents
A pre-battle reconnaissance system has just struck me, that would
allow for an attacker to have some prior knowledge of what he is
coming up against.
At the start of a game there is a facility for each force to dice for
how many blinds it has. This could also be used to allocate an
attacker a certain number of pre-deployment spotting attempts. This
would reflect how much prior knowledge they have of their opponent.
For example as this chart currently stands good regulars have 1D6
number blinds. Equally this could also reflect how many spotting
attempts they get before deciding on where to attack.
This would need to be adjusted for circumstances. For example…..
The force is strong in dedicated recce troops +2
The force has dedicated aerial recce to mission +1
The force has faced this enemy in relatively static
positions for a week or more. +2
The contact is relatively unexpected -2
The contact is entirely unexpected -4
Let us presume we have an element of 7 Panzer post the Meuse
crossing, so driving like hell through northern France. The force in
question may or may not benefit from aerial recce, depending on its
mission. Let's assume it doesn't as this would apply in most
circumstances. It does, however, have a good recce troops so gets a
+2 there. Whilst contact is expected somewhere, this may come at any
point, so becomes "relatively unexpected", a +2, giving us a net
result of 1D6.
On the tabletop the defender allocates troops as usual. The attacker
would sketch out a general plan at this stage, however, before
finally allocating his troops the attacker then rolls his D6. He
rolls a 4. He now has four "spots" on the table before deciding on
his plan.
For every spot the attacker rolls one dice. If the target area,
which would be 1 foot square (?) is within a foot of the point (or
any point if multiple) of attackers table entry the spot is
automatic. If it is between 1 and 2 feet a 2 or more is needed on a
D6; between 2 and 3 feet, a 3 or more is required, up to between 5
and 6 feet where a 6 is required.
For each unit "spotted" a blind is put down on the table. The
attacker then rolls a D6 for each of these blinds, and on a 6 the
actual defending figures are put down. This reflects that the recce
forces will more generally identify where an enemy is, rather than
what he is.
The attacker, with his fresh knowledge, may have five minute to then
finalise his plans (after all contact has now been made, the enemy
are alerted). For every minute over this five taken the defender may
remove one of the spotted blinds and deploy elsewhere. A rather
nasty device to get the game started on time.
Any thoughts?
|
Probably a "What?!!" but I am sure that "we are unworthy" (this was typed
whilst grovelling in front of the holy writ as received on my equally unworthy
computer).
?
Alan
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Am I a God or
what?!!
--- In Toofatlardies@..., Trevor Harwood
wrote:
> According to the oracle in these
matters (my father-in-law), even
in late
> war, the anti-tank
platoon when all else had failed would load up a
Bren
> with AP
rounds and try and hit the same spot on a Panzer (even
Panthers).
>
Although there was no chance of penetration the armour scabbed off
inside
> and made life hell for the crew - sometimes sufficient
enough to
make the
> Panzer withdraw.
>?
>
T
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alan Reynolds
[mailto:gfy07@d...]
> Sent: 01 May 2003 16:51
> To:
Toofatlardies@...
> Subject: RE: [Toofatlardies] Rifles
against tanks
>
>
> Sounds good to me, there was always a
chance that vision blocks or
visors
> etc would be hit and any
calibre bullet whizzing round inside a
tank would
> make the crew
uncomfortable to say the least.
>?
> Alan
>
>
-----Original Message-----
> From: richardclarkerli
[mailto:richardclarkerli@y...]
> Sent: 01 May 2003 13:25
> To:
Toofatlardies@...
> Subject: [Toofatlardies] Rifles against
tanks
>
>
> As some of you may realise their is a function
in the rules that
> allow rifle sections to fire on weakly armoured
vehicles and drive
> them back.? This was originally written to
stop people driving all
> over the place in half tracks, but was then
extended to light
tanks,
> such as the Panzer I/Mark VIb and so
on.?
>
> The way this works is that they rifle section has
makes an anti
tank
> attack with no strike dice.? This may
sound daft, but the defender
> then rolls the number of dice for his
armour class in defence.? If
he
> gets no "saves" then the
result is a tie.? A D6 is thrown, a 1 or 2
> meaning that the
vehicle will withdraw on its next card, i.e. it
has
> been spooked,
probably uncertain of where his foe is, and wants to
> pull back to
take a better look.? 3 or 4 means that it must engage
> the firer
in its next turn, i.e. it cannot ignore this threat, 5 or
6
> it
can do what it likes.?
>
> Particularly in the early war we
see tanks being held off by sheer
> volume of firepower from small
arms.? I am considering extending
this
> option for firing on
all armour.? In that instance even a King
Tiger
> could be
forced to withdraw if it can't roll a 5 or 6 on its 128
dice
> (or
whatever it has).?
>
> I've just finished the third Calais
article, and rereading moy
notes
> I have been amazed at how bloody
scared tank crews obviously got
when
> resolute defenders stood
there and chucked fire at them.? Any
> thoughts?
>
>????
>
>
>
> To
unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>
Toofatlardies-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
>
<>
.
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups
Sponsor?????
>
>
>
?????
>?
> <
M=247865.3003379.4507215.1261774/D=egroupmai
>
l/S=:HM/A=1482387/rand=662590233> ?????
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>
Toofatlardies-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
>
<>
.
To
unsubscribe from this group, send an email
to:
Toofatlardies-unsubscribe@...
Your
use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .
|
Am I a God or what?!! --- In Toofatlardies@..., Trevor Harwood <TrevorH@v...> wrote: According to the oracle in these matters (my father-in-law), even in late war, the anti-tank platoon when all else had failed would load up a Bren with AP rounds and try and hit the same spot on a Panzer (even Panthers). Although there was no chance of penetration the armour scabbed off inside and made life hell for the crew - sometimes sufficient enough to make the Panzer withdraw.
T
-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Reynolds [mailto:gfy07@d...]
Sent: 01 May 2003 16:51
To: Toofatlardies@...
Subject: RE: [Toofatlardies] Rifles against tanks
Sounds good to me, there was always a chance that vision blocks or visors etc would be hit and any calibre bullet whizzing round inside a tank would make the crew uncomfortable to say the least.
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: richardclarkerli [mailto:richardclarkerli@y...]
Sent: 01 May 2003 13:25
To: Toofatlardies@...
Subject: [Toofatlardies] Rifles against tanks
As some of you may realise their is a function in the rules that
allow rifle sections to fire on weakly armoured vehicles and drive
them back. This was originally written to stop people driving all
over the place in half tracks, but was then extended to light tanks, such as the Panzer I/Mark VIb and so on.
The way this works is that they rifle section has makes an anti tank attack with no strike dice. This may sound daft, but the defender
then rolls the number of dice for his armour class in defence. If he gets no "saves" then the result is a tie. A D6 is thrown, a 1 or 2
meaning that the vehicle will withdraw on its next card, i.e. it has been spooked, probably uncertain of where his foe is, and wants to
pull back to take a better look. 3 or 4 means that it must engage
the firer in its next turn, i.e. it cannot ignore this threat, 5 or 6 it can do what it likes.
Particularly in the early war we see tanks being held off by sheer
volume of firepower from small arms. I am considering extending this option for firing on all armour. In that instance even a King Tiger could be forced to withdraw if it can't roll a 5 or 6 on its 128 dice (or whatever it has).
I've just finished the third Calais article, and rereading moy notes I have been amazed at how bloody scared tank crews obviously got when resolute defenders stood there and chucked fire at them. Any
thoughts?
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Toofatlardies-unsubscribe@...
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<> .
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
< M=247865.3003379.4507215.1261774/D=egroupmai l/S=:HM/A=1482387/rand=662590233>
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Toofatlardies-unsubscribe@...
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<> .
|
According to the oracle in these matters (my father-in-law), even in late
war, the anti-tank platoon when all else had failed would load up a Bren with AP
rounds and try and hit the same spot on a Panzer (even Panthers). Although there
was no chance of penetration the armour scabbed off inside and made life hell
for the crew - sometimes sufficient enough to make the
Panzer?withdraw.
?
T
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Sounds good to me, there was always a chance that vision blocks or
visors etc would be hit and any calibre bullet whizzing round inside a tank
would make the crew uncomfortable to say the least.
?
Alan
As some of you
may realise their is a function in the rules that
allow rifle sections
to fire on weakly armoured vehicles and drive
them back.? This was
originally written to stop people driving all
over the place in half
tracks, but was then extended to light tanks,
such as the Panzer I/Mark
VIb and so on.?
The way this works is that they rifle section
has makes an anti tank
attack with no strike dice.? This may sound
daft, but the defender
then rolls the number of dice for his armour
class in defence.? If he
gets no "saves" then the result is a
tie.? A D6 is thrown, a 1 or 2
meaning that the vehicle will
withdraw on its next card, i.e. it has
been spooked, probably uncertain
of where his foe is, and wants to
pull back to take a better look.?
3 or 4 means that it must engage
the firer in its next turn, i.e. it
cannot ignore this threat, 5 or 6
it can do what it likes.?
Particularly in the early war we see tanks being held off by sheer
volume of firepower from small arms.? I am considering extending
this
option for firing on all armour.? In that instance even a King
Tiger
could be forced to withdraw if it can't roll a 5 or 6 on its 128
dice
(or whatever it has).?
I've just finished the third
Calais article, and rereading moy notes
I have been amazed at how bloody
scared tank crews obviously got when
resolute defenders stood there and
chucked fire at them.? Any
thoughts?
???
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
to:
Toofatlardies-unsubscribe@...
Your
use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .
To
unsubscribe from this group, send an email
to:
Toofatlardies-unsubscribe@...
Your
use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .
|
Sounds
good to me, there was always a chance that vision blocks or visors etc would be
hit and any calibre bullet whizzing round inside a tank would make the crew
uncomfortable to say the least.
?
Alan
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
As some of you
may realise their is a function in the rules that
allow rifle sections to
fire on weakly armoured vehicles and drive
them back.? This was
originally written to stop people driving all
over the place in half
tracks, but was then extended to light tanks,
such as the Panzer I/Mark
VIb and so on.?
The way this works is that they rifle section has
makes an anti tank
attack with no strike dice.? This may sound daft,
but the defender
then rolls the number of dice for his armour class in
defence.? If he
gets no "saves" then the result is a tie.? A D6
is thrown, a 1 or 2
meaning that the vehicle will withdraw on its next
card, i.e. it has
been spooked, probably uncertain of where his foe is,
and wants to
pull back to take a better look.? 3 or 4 means that it
must engage
the firer in its next turn, i.e. it cannot ignore this threat,
5 or 6
it can do what it likes.?
Particularly in the early
war we see tanks being held off by sheer
volume of firepower from small
arms.? I am considering extending this
option for firing on all
armour.? In that instance even a King Tiger
could be forced to
withdraw if it can't roll a 5 or 6 on its 128 dice
(or whatever it
has).?
I've just finished the third Calais article, and rereading
moy notes
I have been amazed at how bloody scared tank crews obviously got
when
resolute defenders stood there and chucked fire at them.? Any
thoughts?
???
To
unsubscribe from this group, send an email
to:
Toofatlardies-unsubscribe@...
Your
use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .
|
As some of you may realise their is a function in the rules that
allow rifle sections to fire on weakly armoured vehicles and drive
them back. This was originally written to stop people driving all
over the place in half tracks, but was then extended to light tanks,
such as the Panzer I/Mark VIb and so on.
The way this works is that they rifle section has makes an anti tank
attack with no strike dice. This may sound daft, but the defender
then rolls the number of dice for his armour class in defence. If he
gets no "saves" then the result is a tie. A D6 is thrown, a 1 or 2
meaning that the vehicle will withdraw on its next card, i.e. it has
been spooked, probably uncertain of where his foe is, and wants to
pull back to take a better look. 3 or 4 means that it must engage
the firer in its next turn, i.e. it cannot ignore this threat, 5 or 6
it can do what it likes.
Particularly in the early war we see tanks being held off by sheer
volume of firepower from small arms. I am considering extending this
option for firing on all armour. In that instance even a King Tiger
could be forced to withdraw if it can't roll a 5 or 6 on its 128 dice
(or whatever it has).
I've just finished the third Calais article, and rereading moy notes
I have been amazed at how bloody scared tank crews obviously got when
resolute defenders stood there and chucked fire at them. Any
thoughts?
|
Asbolutely right (for a change), Buttoned up tanks with lots of fire coming in-good chance of the vehicle at least backing off.
In addition, if scots are involved and accompanied by a piper, the shear morale effects of the pipes should cause immediate surrender of the tank crew!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!VIVA LA PEEPS.
mick
|
Nod Saw that first site the other day. The officer's "kepi" is pretty easy, I'll just use the heads from 1870s Wurttemburgers, but the Finnmarkslue, as you so eloquently put it, is less clear. I would think the kepi could still be used as a base, with details built up wit putty. The great advantage of the campaign is that a Platoon of Norwegians would be enough for a game, as one would supplement them with Brits and/or Frogs. I'd be surprised if the Somua was used in the camapign, as the bulk of the fighting happened a month before the invasion of France and the Low Countries. Possibly it was used for policing the country during the occupation. There were plenty used like that in France, and the Channel islands had Char B's from memory. Cheers Rich --- In Toofatlardies@..., mikeqchromeuk@a... wrote: Aynsley,
Not too well read on the campaign - the naval conflict was one of the most interesting of WWII.
take a look at . looks like very little in the way of a set uniform - greatcoat + soft hat with ear flaps (the
Finnmarkslue) with a few in British helmets would do.
Interestingly I found a reference to the use of captured French Somua's in the campaign - these were seen as unsuitable for integration into Panzer divisions, so were pushed into service in regions such as Norway take a look at: list=norway.slides &dir=&config=&refresh=&direction=forward&scale=0&cycle=off&slide=6&
design=default&total=6
Could be some interesting scenarios - lots of small actions, and scope for some guerilla actions including the use of armoured trains - I know how you love those.
Mick
|
Your right, the caption on the pic states they were used for policing. But knowing the frogs, maybe some had surrendered before the outbreak of hostilities.
|
I rest my case.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
--- In Toofatlardies@..., mikeqchromeuk@a... wrote: In a message dated 14/04/03 08:17:12 GMT Daylight Time,
richardclarkerli@y... writes:
The piper becomes an appendage
to a Big Man who then has his performance enhanced. Have you been watching those strange films again?
|
Aynsley,
Not too well read on the campaign - the naval conflict was one of the most interesting of WWII.
take a look at http://www.nuav.net/Nouniforms.html. looks like very little in the way of a set uniform - greatcoat + soft hat with ear flaps (the Finnmarkslue) with a few in British helmets would do.
Interestingly I found a reference to the use of captured French Somua's in the campaign - these were seen as unsuitable for integration into Panzer divisions, so were pushed into service in regions such as Norway take a look at:http://www.worldwar2database.com/cgi-bin/slideviewer.cgi?list=norway.slides&dir=&config=&refresh=&direction=forward&scale=0&cycle=off&slide=6&design=default&total=6
Could be some interesting scenarios - lots of small actions, and scope for some guerilla actions including the use of armoured trains - I know how you love those.
Mick
|
In a message dated 14/04/03 08:17:12 GMT Daylight Time, richardclarkerli@... writes:
The piper becomes an appendage
to a Big Man who then has his performance enhanced.
Have you been watching those strange films again?
|
This may seem a trifle daft, but does anyone know of any manufacturer
of 15mm Norwegians for 1940? I want to extend the supplement on the
Russo-Finish war to include this campaign as well. It's a nice
opportunity to roll out the Brits and French on the same team, in an
ad hoc Company. A Platoon of Norwegians would make things a bit
prettier too.
Rich
|
Sounds like a victory for common sense. Well done the discussion group,
our value is proven! (actually, that deserves another exclamation mark
so her it is: !)
Richard Clarke wrote:
?No.? It was aimed entirely at you,
essentially for
your puerile overuse of the exclamation mark! (see,
one's enough)
I am saying that it should provide a movement bonus,
but not with a card.? The piper becomes an appendage
to a Big Man who then has his performance enhanced.
I am defering to weight of opinion regarding the lack
of bonus for having the pipes, and accepting that the
elite bonus in melee would apply to these lads.? I
still feel that their foe should suffer, but have no
desire to argue over what is essentially half a
casualty.
I hope you're flying to Belfast, I don't reckon your
tractor would get you to the coast!
Cheers
Rich
?
--- mikeqchromeuk@... wrote: > Presumably your
cretin comment is aimed at those who
> either don't bother to
> read or fail to understand an argument. The use of a
> bonus card, in other
> words a command and control bonus, is precisely what
> Dazza suggested!!!!!!!!!
> The main query was as to whether the pipes should
> confer a combat bonus, and
> have a detrimental effect on defenders.
> As to Gurkhas, their prowess at night time throat
> slitting obviously had an
> effect on morale - particularly when exposed to such
> raids over a fairly
> prolonged period. However in the context of the
> small unit engagements with
> which we deal, I believe the major factor is that
> they were eager to close,
> and more than willing to use? cold steel - traits
> shared by all the best
> shock troops.
>
__________________________________________________
Yahoo! Plus
For a better Internet experience
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Toofatlardies-unsubscribe@...
?
?
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .
?
|
Re: The skirl of the pipes
Haven't you heard "Deutschland Deutschland Uberalles" on the bagpipes?
And hopefully you never will.
?
Were
the peeps as effective later in the war as many replacements to Scottish units
were not Scottish - my father-in-law for example, a Yorkshireman. I will ask his
opinion next time I speak to him but as he has always been completely tone deaf
it probably made no difference one way or the other. In fact the only time he
gets excited in his reminisces is when recounting the number of bottles of
Calvados that they managed to liberate in Normandy. So how about bonuses for
troops attacking/defending distilleries.
?
T
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
"Donald was ordered to play "Pibroch o' Donald Dubh" which
luckily the Black Watch recognized."
?
Who the hell else would have been playing the bagpipes? or were the
Germans using bagpipers at this time!?
?
Of course it may be that?Donald such a piss poor piper that usually
it just sounded like cats being strangled and this was the only "tune" he
could manage to play that would be recognised as piping.
?
?
?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 9:32
PM
Subject: Re: [Toofatlardies] Re: The
skirl of the pipes
Forgive this long piece, but as the wife is out tonight, I've
been looking online at bagpipes in combat (and will move on to the more
interesting websites that Noddy told me about later). Most of what I found
was complete rubbish - and so is this - but it shows that choice of tune
should have an important effect....
(I love the bit about the guy who "died but was still playing"...reminds
me of Mad Mick, the salesman with the boob-job wife whose friend died twice
playing American football - remember him?)
?
"Each company was to be played into action by its piper. At El Alamein
the pipers were given specific tunes to play, usually the company marches.
These varied according to the battalion, from "The Nut Brown Maiden" and
"The Black Bear" through tunes like "The Atholl Highlanders" and "Scotland
the Brave" to "Lord Alexander Kennedy," a formidably difficult tune to play
at regulation marching speed, and difficult for a novice to play at all.
The battle began at twenty to ten - 2140 in army terms - on October 23,
1942. It opened with an intense artillery bombardment from more than 800
guns. Twenty minutes later the assaulting infantry crossed the Start Line.
The enemy reacted swiftly, initially with intense artillery defensive
fire and as the Infantry approaced their objectives, with heavy and accurate
machine gun fire. All accounts describe how the pipers strode forward,
apparently unconcerned, through the dust raised by the bursting enemy
shells. An officer of the 1st Black Watch recalled, "The few pipers we had
were playing their companies forward all the time. I had the greatest
difficulty in preventing the Pipe Corporal from walking into the
anti-personnel trip wires which you could generally see in the moonlight." A
5th Black Watch officer wrote, "The bit I left out was about the company
pipers who played us across No Man's Land. They were very good, quite
oblivious of the hell going on around them." The 5th Seaforth was one of the
two battalions securing the Start Line. One officer wrote, "Then we saw a
sight that will live forever in our memories. Line upon line of steel
helmeted figures with rifles at the 'High Port', bayonets catching the
moonlight and over all the wailing of the pipes." Another 5th Seaforth
account relates how the pipers played "Highland Laddie" as the battalion
attacked later in the night and how "we were gripped with an indefinable
pride in our division."
The 5th Camerons' task was to secure Inverness
so that 7th Black Watch could pass through. The Camerons advanced with the
pipers playing in the lead. One company commander recalls how his company
piper, Donald Macpherson from Broadford, Isle of Skye, had been ordered to
play "The Inverness Gathering" during the advance. A good tune, maybe, but
not particularly inspiring, so Donald soon broke into "The Cameron Men,"
which saw the company on to their objective. The 7th Black Watch then
appeared through the dusty moonlight. It was clear that, in the regimental
tradition, the Black Watch blood was up from their battle cries and shouted
slogans. To ensure that the Camerons were not mistaken for Germans, Donald
was ordered to play "Pibroch o' Donald Dubh" which luckily the Black Watch
recognized. The 7th Argylls' history, written by Capt. Iain C. Cameron of
Islay, tells how "Paisley" was mopped up with the piper playing the
regimental charge "Monymusk", while "A" company piper played "Blue Bonnets"
during the advance.
Inevitably there were casualties among the pipers.
The 5th Black Watch history tells how "A" company approached their
objective, "Montrose", their piper, Duncan MacIntyre, playing in their
centre. Suddenly he was hit, but carried on playing, breaking into the
regimental march, "Highland Laddie" as the assault went in. He was hit again
and died, still playing. The next morning Duncan was found with his pipes
still under his arm, his fingers on the chanter".
Nicked from:
?
therugdoctor2003 wrote:
?Being a rabid Anglo-Saxon, I think
you're overdoing the effect here.
With only a musket in hand,
I can perceive the morale impact. With
automatic weapons, I'm
not so sure.
And imagine how hard it is to hear "flower of Scotland" in the
middle
of an artillery barrage..? The English fans
manage to drown out every
visiting team's national anthem by
simple whistles.
So, what about a pipes bonus card, whereby all sections within
a
radius of the piper can move. Same as a German blitzkreig
card, i.e.
they can't fire or spot, just go forward.
In terms of melee bonus, I would say that the Scots should be
classed
as "agressive", as would other shock troops, as once
in hand to hand
I'm not sure how much effect the pipes
themselves would have. Perhaps
Germans of average and below
fighting ability should have a
supression point inflicted if
within a certain radius of the pipes?
Daz
?
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Toofatlardies-unsubscribe@...
?
?
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the . ?
To
unsubscribe from this group, send an email
to:
Toofatlardies-unsubscribe@...
Your
use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .
|
No. It was aimed entirely at you, essentially for your puerile overuse of the exclamation mark! (see, one's enough) I am saying that it should provide a movement bonus, but not with a card. The piper becomes an appendage to a Big Man who then has his performance enhanced. I am defering to weight of opinion regarding the lack of bonus for having the pipes, and accepting that the elite bonus in melee would apply to these lads. I still feel that their foe should suffer, but have no desire to argue over what is essentially half a casualty. I hope you're flying to Belfast, I don't reckon your tractor would get you to the coast! Cheers Rich --- mikeqchromeuk@... wrote: > Presumably your cretin comment is aimed at those who either don't bother to
read or fail to understand an argument. The use of a
bonus card, in other
words a command and control bonus, is precisely what
Dazza suggested!!!!!!!!!
The main query was as to whether the pipes should
confer a combat bonus, and
have a detrimental effect on defenders.
As to Gurkhas, their prowess at night time throat
slitting obviously had an
effect on morale - particularly when exposed to such
raids over a fairly
prolonged period. However in the context of the
small unit engagements with
which we deal, I believe the major factor is that
they were eager to close,
and more than willing to use cold steel - traits
shared by all the best
shock troops.
__________________________________________________ Yahoo! Plus For a better Internet experience
|
Re: The skirl of the pipes
"Donald was ordered to play "Pibroch o' Donald Dubh" which luckily
the Black Watch recognized."
?
Who the hell else would have been playing the bagpipes? or were the Germans
using bagpipers at this time!?
?
Of course it may be that?Donald such a piss poor piper that usually it
just sounded like cats being strangled and this was the only "tune" he could
manage to play that would be recognised as piping.
?
?
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 9:32
PM
Subject: Re: [Toofatlardies] Re: The
skirl of the pipes
Forgive this long piece, but as the wife is out tonight, I've
been looking online at bagpipes in combat (and will move on to the more
interesting websites that Noddy told me about later). Most of what I found was
complete rubbish - and so is this - but it shows that choice of tune should
have an important effect....
(I love the bit about the guy who "died but was still playing"...reminds me
of Mad Mick, the salesman with the boob-job wife whose friend died twice
playing American football - remember him?)
?
"Each company was to be played into action by its piper. At El Alamein the
pipers were given specific tunes to play, usually the company marches. These
varied according to the battalion, from "The Nut Brown Maiden" and "The Black
Bear" through tunes like "The Atholl Highlanders" and "Scotland the Brave" to
"Lord Alexander Kennedy," a formidably difficult tune to play at regulation
marching speed, and difficult for a novice to play at all.
The battle
began at twenty to ten - 2140 in army terms - on October 23, 1942. It opened
with an intense artillery bombardment from more than 800 guns. Twenty minutes
later the assaulting infantry crossed the Start Line.
The enemy reacted
swiftly, initially with intense artillery defensive fire and as the Infantry
approaced their objectives, with heavy and accurate machine gun fire. All
accounts describe how the pipers strode forward, apparently unconcerned,
through the dust raised by the bursting enemy shells. An officer of the 1st
Black Watch recalled, "The few pipers we had were playing their companies
forward all the time. I had the greatest difficulty in preventing the Pipe
Corporal from walking into the anti-personnel trip wires which you could
generally see in the moonlight." A 5th Black Watch officer wrote, "The bit I
left out was about the company pipers who played us across No Man's Land. They
were very good, quite oblivious of the hell going on around them." The 5th
Seaforth was one of the two battalions securing the Start Line. One officer
wrote, "Then we saw a sight that will live forever in our memories. Line upon
line of steel helmeted figures with rifles at the 'High Port', bayonets
catching the moonlight and over all the wailing of the pipes." Another 5th
Seaforth account relates how the pipers played "Highland Laddie" as the
battalion attacked later in the night and how "we were gripped with an
indefinable pride in our division."
The 5th Camerons' task was to secure
Inverness so that 7th Black Watch could pass through. The Camerons advanced
with the pipers playing in the lead. One company commander recalls how his
company piper, Donald Macpherson from Broadford, Isle of Skye, had been
ordered to play "The Inverness Gathering" during the advance. A good tune,
maybe, but not particularly inspiring, so Donald soon broke into "The Cameron
Men," which saw the company on to their objective. The 7th Black Watch then
appeared through the dusty moonlight. It was clear that, in the regimental
tradition, the Black Watch blood was up from their battle cries and shouted
slogans. To ensure that the Camerons were not mistaken for Germans, Donald was
ordered to play "Pibroch o' Donald Dubh" which luckily the Black Watch
recognized. The 7th Argylls' history, written by Capt. Iain C. Cameron of
Islay, tells how "Paisley" was mopped up with the piper playing the regimental
charge "Monymusk", while "A" company piper played "Blue Bonnets" during the
advance.
Inevitably there were casualties among the pipers. The 5th Black
Watch history tells how "A" company approached their objective, "Montrose",
their piper, Duncan MacIntyre, playing in their centre. Suddenly he was hit,
but carried on playing, breaking into the regimental march, "Highland Laddie"
as the assault went in. He was hit again and died, still playing. The next
morning Duncan was found with his pipes still under his arm, his fingers on
the chanter".
Nicked from:
?
therugdoctor2003 wrote:
?Being a rabid Anglo-Saxon, I think you're
overdoing the effect here.
With only a musket in hand, I can
perceive the morale impact. With
automatic weapons, I'm not so
sure.
And imagine how hard it is to hear "flower of Scotland" in the
middle
of an artillery barrage..? The English fans manage
to drown out every
visiting team's national anthem by simple
whistles.
So, what about a pipes bonus card, whereby all sections within a
radius of the piper can move. Same as a German blitzkreig card,
i.e.
they can't fire or spot, just go forward.
In terms of melee bonus, I would say that the Scots should be
classed
as "agressive", as would other shock troops, as once in
hand to hand
I'm not sure how much effect the pipes themselves
would have. Perhaps
Germans of average and below fighting
ability should have a
supression point inflicted if within a
certain radius of the pipes?
Daz
?
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Toofatlardies-unsubscribe@...
?
?
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the . ?
|
Presumably your cretin comment is aimed at those who either don't bother to read or fail to understand an argument. The use of a bonus card, in other words a command and control bonus, is precisely what Dazza suggested!!!!!!!!! The main query was as to whether the pipes should confer a combat bonus, and have a detrimental effect on defenders.
As to Gurkhas, their prowess at night time throat slitting obviously had an effect on morale - particularly when exposed to such raids over a fairly prolonged period. However in the context of the small unit engagements with which we deal, I believe the major factor is that they were eager to close, and more than willing to use ?cold steel - traits shared by all the best shock troops.
|
