|
It would be nice to see some activity here if it is still an alternative to FB. Since the FB group is now private a non-FB member cannot read or access the content there.
Please comment if this has value.
Leake Little, co-admin
L513/DF1 Haplogroup Project
|
Hi Leake:
Some people signed up to this io site, which is good. A lot of people don't like Facebook, so maybe some will come here if it's promoted. I prefer this format simply because Facebook is a huge time-waster for me -- I get sucked into hours there, instead of minutes, and it's mostly junk -- and because this is an email format.? I'm sure if you check with Mike W you'll discover L513 forum was private long before we switched to Facebook.
Per Little surname: do you know if anybody has advanced/promoted the idea that the surname Little likely originated from galgadael which I mentioned a few years ago?? If Glendon(g?)wyn can eventually change to to Glendenning, or Clendenin, etc., I see no reason why Little, which I believe originated from Liddell, couldn't have originated from a name for a group of people, "foreign Gaels", which even ended up on maps know as Galloway and previously as Galwydel. See 600 and 700 AD maps here?
I'm convinced Little, as a surname, referred to a type of people initially, and then to their geographic region (or visa versa). Many men would have been proud to be referred to as Gaels instead of Anglo Saxon (German) who swarmed Britain after the Romans left. Galgadael may have initially referred to vikings (foreign) who spoke Gaelic, but the key point here is that they spoke Gaelic, and after a few generations of assimilating into the Scottish culture, and marrying full-blooded Scots, they thought of themselves as Scotsmen -- with some long forgotten foreign blood in them (so they thought). The male Gaels simply outbred the vikings (foreigners) and so the "ga" is dropped and you're left with Lwydel instead of Galwyddel, which eventually, through English influence, became Little. The English couldn't pronounce the Scottish names very good, and often changed the sound, and therefore the spelling, to something that looked and sounded completely different.
I haven't checked the internet recently about the origins of the Little surname but it sure would be nice to see it there as I've described it above.? Sure, I understand differentiating between an older brother and younger brother as "big" brother and "little" brother, and also differentiating between the father and son who often shared the same first name, as Senior and Little respectively, but it makes no sense to me that these sort of references would morph into a surname. Even such sarcastic references as "Little John, or John Little", in reference to size, don't have a believable lasting quality to them. But a surname that associates a person with a well known distinctive (Gaelic) group of people, who wanted their legacy to endure forever, is much more believable than all the other alternatives -- especially if one is very familiar with the Scottish culture that has been ruled by the English for many centuries, and heavily influenced by them for many more centuries.
?Best Regards,
Daryl Martin Most likely a McLean from way back A1067
It would be nice to see some activity here if it is still an alternative to FB. Since the FB group is now private a non-FB member cannot read or access the content there.
Please comment if this has value.
Leake Little, co-admin
L513/DF1 Haplogroup Project
|
Thanks Darrel. I noticed your post from a couple of years ago, and luckily I have more context recently as I have done a bit of a deep dive into the issues you raise. Lots to talk about.
We have this forum but I've also set up a smaller space to discuss L193 haplogroup issues - including origins, matching, history, geography, testing plans, etc.
For now let me copy here the latest version of the tools I use to put these pieces together more. One is a timeline that you may have seen before, in an earlier form. The other is a synthesis of what is knowable about some of these issues that relies on formal sources. It's not a treatise, just an attempt at summary of what is known or not presently in the record.
I'm guessing that there is still incredible detail in-between the broad strokes these tools present, but my hope is that they can be foundational for every genetic cluster and surname family lines by extension with their own findings (for instance). Let me know your thoughts.
leake
|
Hello Leake!
I'm in the same boat as you, in that I gave up FB several years ago. Yes, it would be nice to have an alternative site to exchange ideas and info. I suppose that it will depend on how much interest it generates.
Thanks for the contact.
Paula
On Wednesday, January 19, 2022, 04:43:39 PM CST, Leake Little <leakelittle@...> wrote:
It would be nice to see some activity here if it is still an alternative to FB. Since the FB group is now private a non-FB member cannot read or access the content there.
Please comment if this has value.
Leake Little, co-admin
L513/DF1 Haplogroup Project
|
Hello Daryl,
It's good to hear from you again, too. Thanks for providing the link for maps of the ancient tribes/kingdoms. I always enjoy looking at those to compare the changes. Below, I put a link that parallels yours. Hopefully, we'll get others interested in posting here.
pk
On Wednesday, January 19, 2022, 06:39:50 PM CST, Class1 Driver <class1driver@...> wrote:
Hi Leake:
Some people signed up to this io site, which is good. A lot of people don't like Facebook, so maybe some will come here if it's promoted. I prefer this format simply because Facebook is a huge time-waster for me -- I get sucked into hours there, instead of minutes, and it's mostly junk -- and because this is an email format.? I'm sure if you check with Mike W you'll discover L513 forum was private long before we switched to Facebook.
Per Little surname: do you know if anybody has advanced/promoted the idea that the surname Little likely originated from galgadael which I mentioned a few years ago?? If Glendon(g?)wyn can eventually change to to Glendenning, or Clendenin, etc., I see no reason why Little, which I believe originated from Liddell, couldn't have originated from a name for a group of people, "foreign Gaels", which even ended up on maps know as Galloway and previously as Galwydel. See 600 and 700 AD maps here?
I'm convinced Little, as a surname, referred to a type of people initially, and then to their geographic region (or visa versa). Many men would have been proud to be referred to as Gaels instead of Anglo Saxon (German) who swarmed Britain after the Romans left. Galgadael may have initially referred to vikings (foreign) who spoke Gaelic, but the key point here is that they spoke Gaelic, and after a few generations of assimilating into the Scottish culture, and marrying full-blooded Scots, they thought of themselves as Scotsmen -- with some long forgotten foreign blood in them (so they thought). The male Gaels simply outbred the vikings (foreigners) and so the "ga" is dropped and you're left with Lwydel instead of Galwyddel, which eventually, through English influence, became Little. The English couldn't pronounce the Scottish names very good, and often changed the sound, and therefore the spelling, to something that looked and sounded completely different.
I haven't checked the internet recently about the origins of the Little surname but it sure would be nice to see it there as I've described it above.? Sure, I understand differentiating between an older brother and younger brother as "big" brother and "little" brother, and also differentiating between the father and son who often shared the same first name, as Senior and Little respectively, but it makes no sense to me that these sort of references would morph into a surname. Even such sarcastic references as "Little John, or John Little", in reference to size, don't have a believable lasting quality to them. But a surname that associates a person with a well known distinctive (Gaelic) group of people, who wanted their legacy to endure forever, is much more believable than all the other alternatives -- especially if one is very familiar with the Scottish culture that has been ruled by the English for many centuries, and heavily influenced by them for many more centuries.
?Best Regards,
Daryl Martin Most likely a McLean from way back A1067
It would be nice to see some activity here if it is still an alternative to FB. Since the FB group is now private a non-FB member cannot read or access the content there.
Please comment if this has value.
Leake Little, co-admin
L513/DF1 Haplogroup Project
|
Hello again, Leake
Your L-193 group is of interest since it is more focused on our branch.
pk
On Wednesday, January 19, 2022, 06:58:00 PM CST, Leake Little <leakelittle@...> wrote:
Thanks Darrel. I noticed your post from a couple of years ago, and luckily I have more context recently as I have done a bit of a deep dive into the issues you raise. Lots to talk about.
We have this forum but I've also set up a smaller space to discuss L193 haplogroup issues - including origins, matching, history, geography, testing plans, etc.
For now let me copy here the latest version of the tools I use to put these pieces together more. One is a timeline that you may have seen before, in an earlier form. The other is a synthesis of what is knowable about some of these issues that relies on formal sources. It's not a treatise, just an attempt at summary of what is known or not presently in the record.
I'm guessing that there is still incredible detail in-between the broad strokes these tools present, but my hope is that they can be foundational for every genetic cluster and surname family lines by extension with their own findings (for instance). Let me know your thoughts.
leake
|
I am on this. I just don't have time to double post. I generally place priority on the R1b.L513 Facebook group -
When I started that forum and this, by far most people chose FB so that became my posting priority.?
I have to monitor the R-L513 project FTDNA Activity Feed since I'm a project administer.-
The Activity Feed becomes an alternative to FB. Thankfully, you (Leake) typically responds to people there.
It is my intent to have any of these forums be private, as the old yahoo group was. I have been advised several times by leading bloggers/project administrators to make groups private. Unfortunately, if you don't you are subject to scraping of user names, email IDs, etc. for illicit uses. In that sense, I opt for safety so people will feel secure in posting questions, comments, etc.? If someone wants the benefits of the group/forum, they should join. That way we know who they are in case someone else has a concern. We have had a couple of cases where non-L513 people of the same surname were trying to monitor the L513 people (of the same surname) to essentially annoy them. I guess that is trolling of a sort.
The project itself is fairly good at being up to date in terms of subgroupings matching the Y tree. -
I will respond here, but probably won't create new topics, or only occasionally.
I detest Facebook, particularly Zuckerberg. My FB profile is almost empty. I also don't like that I switched to an iPhone from Android, but if I wanted to Facetime with my grandkids and share photos, I had no choice. The vast majority of the genetic genealogy forum discussion is now done on FB:? Genetic Genealogy Ireland = 7,700 members, FTDNA User Group = 13,700, Genetic Genelogy Tips & Techniques = 35,600, ISOGG = 19,700, GEDmatch = 35,100, etc.
Anyway, this groups.io is fine and I will support it too, but I just won't be very proactive.
Regards
Mike "Tiger" Walsh
?
?
?
|
Greetings all,? I miss the yahoo site. Text only with attachments in many cases, no pop-up ads, no bandwidth issues and great information sharing. Usually the reply to all function is either not used (when it is needed) or over used. Again, the ability to scan the details of a message on yahoo was very user friendly ( I thought).
Hello Leake!
I'm in the same boat as you, in that I gave up FB several years ago. Yes, it would be nice to have an alternative site to exchange ideas and info. I suppose that it will depend on how much interest it generates.
Thanks for the contact.
Paula
On Wednesday, January 19, 2022, 04:43:39 PM CST, Leake Little < leakelittle@...> wrote:
It would be nice to see some activity here if it is still an alternative to FB. Since the FB group is now private a non-FB member cannot read or access the content there.
Please comment if this has value.
Leake Little, co-admin
L513/DF1 Haplogroup Project
|
Hi Paula, and Mike, and Brad, and Leake. It's good to hear from you all in this format again.
I've glanced over the information you sent, Leake, and it's impressive. However when one goes to Wikipedia (the link you sent me) for the origins of the Little Clan it only references 'size' based on Latin terminology as per: " Origins of the clanAccording to Black, Little is a descriptive name and was originally written in??documents as?parvus?meaning little or small.?Given that the name is descriptive it is impossible to find any clear origin of the Little name in Scotland."
I'm not bold enough to change wikipedia but maybe I should be if there is consensus in my Little name origin theory. I'd prefer that a Little do it though. ;-)
Since I initially began my interest in surname origins years ago I've noticed a common theme -- that explanations of a surname origin are slanted in favour of any particular language of choice. In other words a guessing game, seemingly without much thought. Why would a person prefer a Latin origin theory for a Gaelic name (if it is indeed Gaelic)? If someone can come up with an alternative ethnic origin of Little I'd gladly consider it. But the language location, and politics in which a name arose should all be considered.?
For example why would a Scotsman name his ~100 foot steam yacht the 'Medea' which was built in 1904 (in 51 days) and currently sits (operationally) in the San Diego Maritime museum? This question even arose in a book written about the Medea. The name has a seemingly negative connotation to it which I would paraphrase as a name rhyming with witch. To an Englishman this makes no sense, but to a Scotsman it does. My great grandfather captained the Medea when it was first built for a rich man surnamed Hall who, I believe, lived near Carradale, Kintyre, Argyll, Scotland. Captain? Duncan Martin was a fisherman whose job it was to earn a living fishing in the very dangerous waters around the Kintyre. Many men lost their lives to the sea including his eldest son who seemingly accidentally fell overboard when fishing with his father and younger brother. In an instant he was gone, never to be seen again despite frantic efforts to find him. Deaths on the sea were so common then that a local Campbeltown (where Cpt. Duncan lived) woman made unique sweaters for each fisherman which would then be necessarily used as a positive identification for them upon drowning.? So, in typical Scottish fashion, when a rich man names his yacht he attempts, in disdain for the wicked sea, to name it as having characteristics far greater than the sea. In essence it's like fighting fire with fire. What can defeat something evil? Perhaps something more evil.
Thus the name Medea was given to defeat the evil sea -- in my opinion. Today's English speaking yacht enthusiasts have never made that correlation, and are therefore confused as to the Medea name origin. I contend that surname origins are similarly misunderstood by people unfamiliar with the original language and culture. Perhaps a Scot linguist should be commissioned to investigate and change the origin definition of the surname Little. Then perhaps future googling of the name will give them something more resembling a likely probability of the origins of the name. Why should I care? Maybe it's OCD, I don't really know, except that I despise misinformation and wild guesses designed to appease the masses.? I much prefer well thought out theories, even conflicting ones, which tickle my imagination as being more possible than the first silly thought that comes to mind. ;-)
Where is this L193 group forum you (Paula) mention? I apologize, Leake, if you gave it to me already.
Best,
Daryl
Hello again, Leake
Your L-193 group is of interest since it is more focused on our branch.
pk
On Wednesday, January 19, 2022, 06:58:00 PM CST, Leake Little < leakelittle@...> wrote:
Thanks Darrel. I noticed your post from a couple of years ago, and luckily I have more context recently as I have done a bit of a deep dive into the issues you raise. Lots to talk about.
We have this forum but I've also set up a smaller space to discuss L193 haplogroup issues - including origins, matching, history, geography, testing plans, etc.
For now let me copy here the latest version of the tools I use to put these pieces together more. One is a timeline that you may have seen before, in an earlier form. The other is a synthesis of what is knowable about some of these issues that relies on formal sources. It's not a treatise, just an attempt at summary of what is known or not presently in the record.
I'm guessing that there is still incredible detail in-between the broad strokes these tools present, but my hope is that they can be foundational for every genetic cluster and surname family lines by extension with their own findings (for instance). Let me know your thoughts.
leake
|
Hi Brad,
I think many of us miss the Yahoo groups for the reasons you mentioned. Unfortunately, Yahoo chose to pull the plug on all of those.
pk
On Thursday, January 20, 2022, 11:04:26 AM CST, MagUidhir6 <brad.kat.mcguire@...> wrote:
Greetings all,? I miss the yahoo site. Text only with attachments in many cases, no pop-up ads, no bandwidth issues and great information sharing. Usually the reply to all function is either not used (when it is needed) or over used. Again, the ability to scan the details of a message on yahoo was very user friendly ( I thought).
Hello Leake!
I'm in the same boat as you, in that I gave up FB several years ago. Yes, it would be nice to have an alternative site to exchange ideas and info. I suppose that it will depend on how much interest it generates.
Thanks for the contact.
Paula
On Wednesday, January 19, 2022, 04:43:39 PM CST, Leake Little < leakelittle@...> wrote:
It would be nice to see some activity here if it is still an alternative to FB. Since the FB group is now private a non-FB member cannot read or access the content there.
Please comment if this has value.
Leake Little, co-admin
L513/DF1 Haplogroup Project
|
Daryl,
? ? ?What a lovely eloquent writing style you have, it's a pleasure to read.
I too have given up on FB, as it doesn't suit my personality type.
? Regarding your investigations around the origin of the name 'Little', I would suggest that it is not of Gaelic origin, although 'Begg' as a surname is sometimes seen in Scotland which is probably a back translation into Gaelic. The Gaels all believe they
were descended from heroes, so it's unusual to find a surname that is not linked to a semi-legendary person. Place names and physical traits are seldom, if ever used in the Gaeltachd as a surname.? I think it's important to note that people of the same surname
were very aware of eachother in the past, to the point that the MacPatrick's, for example, all chose to become Patterson's en-mass. The same thing with the Black's, from MacGilleDhuidh and many other examples. The surmane Little may have undergone a 'Clan'
type uniformity reinvention.
? My instinct tells me that Little is a corruption of old Brythonic, lots of 'L's and 'Ll's in old Welsh.
Graham.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hi Paula, and Mike, and Brad, and Leake. It's good to hear from you all in this format again.
I've glanced over the information you sent, Leake, and it's impressive. However when one goes to Wikipedia (the link you sent me) for the origins of the Little Clan it only references 'size' based on Latin terminology as per: "
Origins
of the clan
According to Black, Little is a descriptive name and was originally written in??documents
as?parvus?meaning little or small.?Given
that the name is descriptive it is impossible to find any clear origin of the Little name in Scotland."
I'm not bold enough to change wikipedia but maybe I should be if there is consensus in my Little name origin theory. I'd prefer that a Little do it though. ;-)
Since I initially began my interest in surname origins years ago I've noticed a common theme -- that explanations of a surname origin are slanted in favour of any particular language of choice. In other words a guessing game, seemingly without
much thought. Why would a person prefer a Latin origin theory for a Gaelic name (if it is indeed Gaelic)? If someone can come up with an alternative ethnic origin of Little I'd gladly consider it. But the language location, and politics in which a name arose
should all be considered.?
For example why would a Scotsman name his ~100 foot steam yacht the 'Medea' which was built in 1904 (in 51 days) and currently sits (operationally) in the San Diego Maritime museum?
This question even arose in a book written about the Medea. The name has a seemingly negative connotation to it which I would paraphrase as a name rhyming with witch. To an Englishman this makes no sense, but to a Scotsman it does. My great
grandfather captained the Medea when it was first built for a rich man surnamed Hall who, I believe, lived near Carradale, Kintyre, Argyll, Scotland. Captain? Duncan Martin was a fisherman whose job it was to earn a living fishing in the very dangerous waters
around the Kintyre. Many men lost their lives to the sea including his eldest son who seemingly accidentally fell overboard when fishing with his father and younger brother. In an instant he was gone, never to be seen again despite frantic efforts to find
him. Deaths on the sea were so common then that a local Campbeltown (where Cpt. Duncan lived) woman made unique sweaters for each fisherman which would then be necessarily used as a positive identification for them upon drowning.? So, in typical Scottish fashion,
when a rich man names his yacht he attempts, in disdain for the wicked sea, to name it as having characteristics far greater than the sea. In essence it's like fighting fire with fire. What can defeat something evil? Perhaps something more evil.
Thus the name Medea was given to defeat the evil sea -- in my opinion. Today's English speaking yacht enthusiasts have never made that correlation, and are therefore confused as to the Medea name origin. I contend that surname origins are similarly
misunderstood by people unfamiliar with the original language and culture. Perhaps a Scot linguist should be commissioned to investigate and change the origin definition of the surname Little. Then perhaps future googling of the name will give them something
more resembling a likely probability of the origins of the name. Why should I care? Maybe it's OCD, I don't really know, except that I despise misinformation and wild guesses designed to appease the masses.? I much prefer well thought out theories, even conflicting
ones, which tickle my imagination as being more possible than the first silly thought that comes to mind. ;-)
Where is this L193 group forum you (Paula) mention? I apologize, Leake, if you gave it to me already.
Best,
Daryl
Hello again, Leake
Your L-193 group is of interest since it is more focused on our branch.
pk
On Wednesday, January 19, 2022, 06:58:00 PM CST, Leake Little < leakelittle@...> wrote:
Thanks Darrel. I noticed your post from a couple of years ago, and luckily I have more context recently as I have done a bit of a deep dive into the issues you raise. Lots to talk about.
We have this forum but I've also set up a smaller space to discuss L193 haplogroup issues - including origins, matching, history, geography, testing plans, etc.
For now let me copy here the latest version of the tools I use to put these pieces together more. One is a timeline that you may have seen before, in an earlier form. The other is a synthesis of what is knowable about some of these issues that relies on formal
sources. It's not a treatise, just an attempt at summary of what is known or not presently in the record.
I'm guessing that there is still incredible detail in-between the broad strokes these tools present, but my hope is that they can be foundational for every genetic cluster and surname family lines by extension with their own findings (for instance). Let me
know your thoughts.
leake
|
Thanks Daryl, Paula and Graham for your shares. I've continued to think about some of this so will share this draft for your inspection as it builds on your posts. It may stand to reason that if a portion of L513 migrated before the rest, ended up in the northwest portion of the British Isle as early as the middle Bronze then one would expect to also find evidence of other, independent migrations that followed a similar path at a different time. So that would explain Picts maybe, or earlier migrations to the Irish Isle within centuries of ancient Britons having arrived, at least an earlier population dispersion or diffusion model?makes more sense when you look at the genetic data. They indicate that later out migrations did not happen until the medieval and early historic periods, including Ulster. The plantations are too modern historically to see in genetic data. Back to 1600 is a records challenge, not a genetic discovery. The DNA are a decent pathfinder but historical research will have to happen to explain the family lines under the Z17299 cluster.
?
We may see some additional evidence coming out of Northern Ireland in the next few years. Just today I read the following in a BBC story:
?
"...?on a walk in 2016, he followed a fox and found a cave on Ben Gorm that had human remains from the Neolithic period 5,600 years ago. Carbon dating showed it was a ritual site used for more than 1,000 years to prepare bodies for the afterlife (the remains are still being studied and will later go to the National Museum)."
?
?
This type of geography sounds similar to the reported 'wastes' among the Borders. The 'lands' granted were often fallow so rents and duties from the local population was the principal value to any local laird, but included grazing rights, legal/privateer passage, and other residual income from the administration of gifts/patronage to religious societies (priories, monastaries, etc.) from among the lands granted. For instance, in one entry of the Lanercost Cartulary (11th/12th centuries CE) I'm reading all the 'bark of oak trees' on different sections of the 'landes' were already 'given' to the priory for their tanning operations. So any tree cut for its wood would have to have its bark gathered separately and delivered to the priory. These are multi-generational commitments that were obligations of the land itself, not the laird or noble personally.
?
It was less feudal than it was a form of economic administration before a government of laws emerged with the Magna Carta in 1215 CE. One of the signers of that document was Alan fitzRoland, Constable of Scotland in Galloway (Fergus' line).
?
?
Galwyddel, or Galloway had become a Dal Riata territory at some point. It was not Cumbrian until you get closer to the Esk. There were some interesting politics around that period such that it's not so straightforward to assume any surname or family line designated a surname in this period would have been based strictly on kinship. The story of how Alan's descendants had conflicting rules/laws governing the settlement of his estate - Celtic (dal Riata) or the feudal custom of the Scots realm at that time. His daughters inherited his lands instead of his oldest son for instance.
?
 ? ?[see image file of map attached] Divisions within the??(coloured green) and surrounding lordships in the twelfth century.?The??encompassed all Gallovidan regions except?, which fell under the Scottish?, and appears to have been only incorporated into the lordship during the tenure of Fergus's sons.
?
Ayrshire and Galloway may have been separate and distinct territories within all this but if Alan was Constable of all of Scotland then one should expect parallel civil conditions applied to all involved. Then after King John's reign diminished there were activities with Alexander II of Scotland to make the administration of these territories more uniform.
?
The Cartulary is an interesting document just for the fact it exists. Essentially its a 'manorial' administrative record before the system of manors was used (16th century). It is specific to the obligations or patronage of the Lanercost Priory. It has a lot of deVaux and similar characters listed, as well as some old place names with additional notes created by subsequent researchers to identify the modern names or equivalents.
?
I'm going through this to summarize the background surrounding surname adoption in 11th and 12th centuries. It appears that genetic clusters by that time had been scrambled by previous history and movements. It appears that these were smaller movements for some (depending on the territories of the original Briton tribe they might have descended from). The Hen Ogledd suggests that Owain migrated down to Wales, and that these Cumbrians had not ever migrated 'up' from Wales to the Borders - rather they shared ancient language/culture in affinity (if not direct kinship). And the incursion of Dal Riata into Galloway, the Northumberland push from the southeast, Anglican Lothians from the east, along with the occasional Norse/Viking activity around Edinburgh created a crucible of smaller movements over time. Did everyone pick up and go to Dumbarton during Alt Clut? No. Did the Strathclyde move the masses to Govan? No. Did we start nearer Edinburgh and migrate westward? Did we leave any breadcrumbs from 1,500 years ago?
?
|
Graham,
It's difficult to say exactly why a name is chosen. Obviously pride in one's origins will play a big part, or pride in who you don't want to be associated?with. On that latter angle perhaps Little -- derived from Liddell, and presumably derived from galgadael, from whichI believe the placename Galwyddel was apparently derived -- was proudly saying " we are not Dal Riatans/Irish gaels", but rather "we are Scottish gaels". "Yes, we are foreign to the Irish gaels: we are unique"? Perhaps they identified with the rebel image -- the last of a unique breed who originated from neither the Irish or the Saxons/Germanic invaders of "their" island.
I've heard some people today wish their DNA tests results reveal them to be of Viking heritage. That's okay, but I'd rather identify myself as Celtic, particularly as Scottish, but ultimately way before that as a relative of the Amesbury Archer and his companion (L21), both who died around 2400 and 2300 BCE respectively, and we're buried close to Amesbury which is close to Stonehenge.
But what would be a cool name I would choose today to identify myself and my fellow clansmen as distinctively memorable for all of time? Perhaps "CunnedaScot" to reflect my believe I'm related to the once powerful Cunneda clan from which legends of King Arthur (Owain Dantgwyn) derive, or from whom the first king of Scotland may have descended from with a name that included "Canaed(a)" in his title. Or perhaps because it seems quite likely that the surname Kennedy likely derived from Cunneda, and which likely went through the name Kanada/Canada first, and since I'm an English speaking Canadian whose grandfather came from Kintyre, Scotland, the surname CunnedaScot just seems appropriate. ;-)
I believe a surname doesn't have to accurately identify your origins. It just has to identify with what you want to be associated with, as many surnames of christian origin clearly demonstrate.
Daryl
On Sun, Jan 30, 2022, 4:12 PM graham renton < gjorenton@...> wrote:
Daryl,
? ? ?What a lovely eloquent writing style you have, it's a pleasure to read.
I too have given up on FB, as it doesn't suit my personality type.
? Regarding your investigations around the origin of the name 'Little', I would suggest that it is not of Gaelic origin, although 'Begg' as a surname is sometimes seen in Scotland which is probably a back translation into Gaelic. The Gaels all believe they
were descended from heroes, so it's unusual to find a surname that is not linked to a semi-legendary person. Place names and physical traits are seldom, if ever used in the Gaeltachd as a surname.? I think it's important to note that people of the same surname
were very aware of eachother in the past, to the point that the MacPatrick's, for example, all chose to become Patterson's en-mass. The same thing with the Black's, from MacGilleDhuidh and many other examples. The surmane Little may have undergone a 'Clan'
type uniformity reinvention.
? My instinct tells me that Little is a corruption of old Brythonic, lots of 'L's and 'Ll's in old Welsh.
Graham.
Hi Paula, and Mike, and Brad, and Leake. It's good to hear from you all in this format again.
I've glanced over the information you sent, Leake, and it's impressive. However when one goes to Wikipedia (the link you sent me) for the origins of the Little Clan it only references 'size' based on Latin terminology as per: "
Origins
of the clan
According to Black, Little is a descriptive name and was originally written in??documents
as?parvus?meaning little or small.?Given
that the name is descriptive it is impossible to find any clear origin of the Little name in Scotland."
I'm not bold enough to change wikipedia but maybe I should be if there is consensus in my Little name origin theory. I'd prefer that a Little do it though. ;-)
Since I initially began my interest in surname origins years ago I've noticed a common theme -- that explanations of a surname origin are slanted in favour of any particular language of choice. In other words a guessing game, seemingly without
much thought. Why would a person prefer a Latin origin theory for a Gaelic name (if it is indeed Gaelic)? If someone can come up with an alternative ethnic origin of Little I'd gladly consider it. But the language location, and politics in which a name arose
should all be considered.?
For example why would a Scotsman name his ~100 foot steam yacht the 'Medea' which was built in 1904 (in 51 days) and currently sits (operationally) in the San Diego Maritime museum?
This question even arose in a book written about the Medea. The name has a seemingly negative connotation to it which I would paraphrase as a name rhyming with witch. To an Englishman this makes no sense, but to a Scotsman it does. My great
grandfather captained the Medea when it was first built for a rich man surnamed Hall who, I believe, lived near Carradale, Kintyre, Argyll, Scotland. Captain? Duncan Martin was a fisherman whose job it was to earn a living fishing in the very dangerous waters
around the Kintyre. Many men lost their lives to the sea including his eldest son who seemingly accidentally fell overboard when fishing with his father and younger brother. In an instant he was gone, never to be seen again despite frantic efforts to find
him. Deaths on the sea were so common then that a local Campbeltown (where Cpt. Duncan lived) woman made unique sweaters for each fisherman which would then be necessarily used as a positive identification for them upon drowning.? So, in typical Scottish fashion,
when a rich man names his yacht he attempts, in disdain for the wicked sea, to name it as having characteristics far greater than the sea. In essence it's like fighting fire with fire. What can defeat something evil? Perhaps something more evil.
Thus the name Medea was given to defeat the evil sea -- in my opinion. Today's English speaking yacht enthusiasts have never made that correlation, and are therefore confused as to the Medea name origin. I contend that surname origins are similarly
misunderstood by people unfamiliar with the original language and culture. Perhaps a Scot linguist should be commissioned to investigate and change the origin definition of the surname Little. Then perhaps future googling of the name will give them something
more resembling a likely probability of the origins of the name. Why should I care? Maybe it's OCD, I don't really know, except that I despise misinformation and wild guesses designed to appease the masses.? I much prefer well thought out theories, even conflicting
ones, which tickle my imagination as being more possible than the first silly thought that comes to mind. ;-)
Where is this L193 group forum you (Paula) mention? I apologize, Leake, if you gave it to me already.
Best,
Daryl
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Leake Little
MagUidhir6
