At the time of these burials, slavery was not a big thing in Ireland. At least until the later arrival of the Vikings. As the emirate of Cordoba was the most wealthy province in Europe, then I suspect that B12 was a merchant. Just speculation, maybe he died at sea and was placed in a barrel until he could be buried on land.

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of john brazil
Sent: Sunday, 26 September 2021 5:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] Uí Liatháin, Déisi, Ogam, Christianity and Britain (particularly Wales)

?

Hi Elizabeth,

?

I have just started to read Crawford Gribben's very recently published (September 2021) 'Rise and Fall of Christian Ireland'. Inter alia he mentions the finding of remains of an individual near Bettystown who arrived in Ireland in the early Christian period from southern Portugal or north Africa as a slave or prisoner of war. Southern Portugal or North Africa were possibly beyond the reach of marauding A151s then but Romans in Britain originally from southern parts of the Empire clearly were not! And he references a website that bears further investigation - ? Bettystown is less than 5 miles from Claristown (where our Late Iron Age A151+ CT14 was buried). The particular excavation details are Bettystown (Brookside) Excavation No.1977-79:0057 which includes the following;? 'This cemetery is located on a ridge overlooking the Irish Sea, which has produced evidence for burial in the Bronze Age, Iron Age (see Bettystown (Anchorage), and Early Medieval period. The EM burials at the site span the period fourth/seventh centuries AD. Strontium and oxygen isotope analysis undertaken by Dr Jacqueline Cahill Wilson suggests that many of the burials represent newcomers to the area . This includes crouched burials B12 (male) who originated in North Africa. This burial was very unusual in that it appears to have been crushed into its crouched position (E.Kelly, pers com). The location of the cemetery, ie overlooking the sea may reflect the fact that the majority of the burials are of people from overseas. The nearby cemetery at The Anchorage has produced dates similar to this cemetery. Full publication of the excavation is awaited. A Bronze Age cist was also located in the area'.

?

Chasing this up further led me to this page - Immigrant burials in Late Iron Age Meath -

?

This article asks 'How these two men came to live and die in coastal Meath remains uncertain, although it?is possible that they were involved in seaborne trade. During the Later Iron Age and Earlier Medieval period, the Irish Sea coast, especially around Dublin and Meath, appears to have been an important focus for international trade. There is a concentration of imported material in this region and local coastal sites, such as a Drumanagh in north Co. Dublin and possibly Bettystown, may have acted as trading hubs.'

?

I have ordered 'Late Iron Age and ‘Roman’ Ireland' from Wordwell Books to find out more! It also includes a chapter on 'Investigating mobility and migration in the Later Iron Age' which would seem to be particularly relevant and interesting.

?

Definitely puts our A-151+ Uí Liatháin coastal and sea-going kindred in the frame. Traders or slavers? Whatever the market required?

?

John

?

On Sat, Sep 25, 2021 at 6:53 PM Elizabeth <elizabeth@...> wrote:

Hello, Neil.

?

A bit late in responding to your and John’s various notes.? First, to answer your earlier question, the link to the Curran results is .?

?

I have made some comments in red below to specific points you’ve made.? A few other things:

?

Based on the research in our Munster Irish project, we have these surnames historically associated with the Deisi:? O'Bric, a sept of ? Donnchadha, O'Flannagáin, O'Foghladha, O'Cein, O'Mearadhaigh, ? Néill, O'Faelain.? Are you aware of any others?? None of the listed surnames feature in CTS4466 except a few Whalen outliers (not A151) none of whom match each other and almost surely attained their surname through means other than Deisi origins.? I gather you have come to agree that A151 is not Deisi.

?

In the Topographical Poems of John O'Dubhagain (d 1372) and Giolla Na Naomh O'Huidhrin (d 1420), the O'Conghaile/O’Connells are listed as Corca Dhuibhne, which is consistent with their territory (which is the heartland of the Ogham stones).? I might add that Daniel O’Connell was himself not what you would consider a modest man.? His carriage is preserved at Derrynane, and it is one of the most opulent displays I have ever seen – far outstripping the current English royal carriages in use.? Fabricating an adequate genealogy for himself would be a small trifle to accomplish.

?

In the Munster Irish project, about half of the O’Connells are from Kerry, the others Cork/Tipp/Waterford or unknown origins beyond Ireland.? All under B42 > A7659.? For the A7654 Kerry O’Connells to have not found a further downstream branch suggests that they are not closely enough related to do so, which also suggests that their overall population is greater than the Cork/Tipp/Waterford gents.

?

Since the O’Connells are so consistently found under branches of B42, I would interpret that to mean that the Kerry O’Connells are the source of the others in Cork/Tipp/Waterford rather than the other way round, which would mean that this branch of A151 migrated west early on.? To be considered Corca Dhuibhne would suggest quite early on.? But Derrynane is right on the coast, so a jaunt up the coast from the east side would be a simple journey, and the inviting environs of Kerry could have been enough to decide to settle there.

?

There is a Jones (most recent origins two centuries back in London) in B42 > A7659 as well, which suggests that one of the cousins sailed east instead and settled in Wales early enough to assume the Jones surname, eventually ending up on the east coast of England.? I would think to consider him as and ‘English’ Jones would miss the obvious.

?

All fascinating…

?

Elizabeth

?

?

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of O'Brien, Neil
Sent: 21 September 2021 23:27
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] Uí Liatháin, Déisi, Ogam, Christianity and Britain (particularly Wales)

?

Hi John,

?

Thanks for this. I don’t disagree with you at all – I think you’re on the right track and will celebrate when you are proved correct – you make a good case. ?I doubt if we can or will be able to actually ‘prove’ much of our deliberations.? While DNA testing does provide ‘facts’, interpretating the data is just that – subjective interpretation. ?There are undoubtedly 3 possible sources for invasion DNA in modern Welsh DNA from Ui Liathain; Deisi Muman and Laigin ( the latter seem to have been in concentration in north Wales?). There are, of course, a number of problems:-

?

1. A relative paucity for Irish DNA found in the modern population Welsh population that can be linked to the invasion due to a lack of kit samples. We’ve made progress with the two Jones kits, but a hell of a long way to go. I’d really like to see a yDNA match between the Jones’ and the Trevors to confirm a connection to the House of Powys for A151 - there are gaps in the Jones’ tale. This is a potential avenue for future exploration. It’s possible that invasion DNA in Wales might be sparse. In contrast Dalriadic DNA in Scotland is plentiful.
2. What significance is there to the west-east spread of Ogham stones, concentrating in the south west of Ireland? All historical scholarship agrees that there is an undoubted connection between the spread of the stones and Dyfed. What is this ‘coastal culture’ along the entire south coast of Ireland telling us?
3. Again, I have concerns about the spread nature of A151 haplotypes. Undoubtedly 3 events in the medieval era might be linked to this, if A151 are an Ui Liathain subclade ?– the Viking invasion and the unsettled nature of Munster in the 11^th and 12^th Century and the 13^th Century Norman invasion. It would seem that the Ui Liathain may have been greatly weakened by the Norsemen, and scattered by the McCarthys, and finally completely forced out by Barrys in the Cambro-Norman push into their territory. More Irish samplers are needed into various Ui Liathain related surnames to see if this scattering can be explained and whether modern Ui Liathain surnames will be A151 positive – there’s very little evidence emerging so far. As you say, this is a frustratingly slow process.
4. The final thing that concerns me is the relatively small number of A151 haplotypes in the CTS4466 family discovered so far – around 10%. ?A151 is not the only ‘smaller’ subclade – several are even less populous.? At this point, I doubt that there would be a ‘discovery’ of many more.? For whatever combination of reasons, other subclades have produced a greater population.? We do know that the more successful subclades of CTS4466 are found in S1121 and Z21065, and have gradually come to be associated with a number of modern surname types which emerged from the older the Corca Laidhe and Corcu Duibne polities after surnames emerged in the 11^th and 12^th Century in Ireland. It’s well known that, even at the twilight of Gaelic Ireland, in a system of succession based on near blood tanistry, a successful chieftain would be expected to produce a large Derbfhine, and for that reason the marriage bed in the elite lines was rarely monogamous, and chieftains liberally divorced and remarried – in many cases for strategic reasons. It is, perhaps, for this reason, that S1121 is a particularly large haplotype. Arguably less successful lines might be more susceptible to bottleneck events and less able to use the marriage bed as a system for forming alliances. I’m also a bit curious about why A151 has proved so susceptible to probable Viking interference – common men are probably less likely to have been ransomed than elite lines. I take your point that breeding isn’t necessarily a hallmark of success, but it is a factor all the same. ?This could be perceived to be a rather disparaging remark.? Viking interaction is not necessarily ‘interference’.? Being coastal almost certainly means more prone to travelling the waves.? While some ports were frequent sources of slave trade, merchant trade is just as likely.? And just as there were intrusions in Wales, so too could contact with the Scandinavian countries been common.

?

So whilst wholeheartedly supporting your Ui Laithain theory, in the full hope that it eventually bears fruit, there are other mysteries and considerations that may also be at play. ?

?

On balance I think your ideas are probably leading in the right direction and the problem is trying to get more samplers to test. A cheaper option, of course is to try and ascertain haplotypes from ySTRs, which isn’t always as easy. In fact I’ve tried, very unsuccessfully, to try and build a ySTR profile for A541>A151>FT11485? While there are some branches that have clear demarcating marker values, such as the 18 at DYS481 vs the overall modal of 22 amazingly consistent amongst the A212 subclade, on average, modals beyond some individual surname groups are not always apparent.? Nigel has done an amazing job of identifying those commonalities in his IT2 Phylogenetic Tree, but he generally won’t even include 67 marker haplotypes in his calculations.

?

Certainly the FT74196 branch line definitely has a stable ySTR pattern, and on the whole a combination (in whole or in part) of the following STRs robustly points to kits being A541>A151>FT11485>FT74196 positive, viz.:-

?

DYS439 = 11 or 12 (CTS4466 marker reverts to Atlantic modal occasionally)

DYS458 = 18

DYS437 = 14

DYS537 = 11

DYS638 = 12

DYS452 = 31

DYS525 = 11

DYS504 = 17

?

Your branch, A541>A151>FT11485>A714 is a far more tricky prospect, but the following might be generally observed (the sibling branches also have definitely downstream affinities, but not useful to expound here):-

?

R-A714>…./R-BY111005 (has a nice broad surname mix):-

?

• All branch lines consistently have marker value 15 DYS19
• 17 at DYS458
• 15 at DYS607
• 16 at DYS557

?

R-A714> A715…./ R-FT12788 (again nice broad surname mix):-

?

• All branch lines consistently have marker value 25 at DYS635
• 17 at DYS458
• 15 at DYS607
• 16 at DYS557

?

R-A714> A715…./R-BY187664 (a relatively large number of kits, but all come from the same stable - surname Hill):-

?

• All branch lines consistently have marker value 25 at DYS390
• All branch lines consistently have marker value 16 at DYS607
• All branch lines consistently have marker value 17 at DYS570
• All branch lines consistently have marker value 12 at DYS442
• 17 at DYS458
• 15 at DYS607
• 16 at DYS557

?

R-A714>A715….R-FGC23796 (surnames Davison and Thrasher)

?

• There is no unique haplotype marker that distinguishes it very much from others in the CTS4466 haplogroup, except the markers below, but these are very occasionally seen in combination in other haplotypes
• 17 at DYS458
• 15 at DYS607
• 16 at DYS557

?

I’m afraid I haven’t the energy to analyse the other A151 types as yet. However the markers identified above might prove a cheaper way of enticing people to test, with perhaps individual snip testing or snip pack.? The current SNP Pack for CTS4466 is hardly used anymore.? With the great increase in branching, the limited number of SNPs tested in it is hardly worth the cost.? The Big Y is now so much more affordable, it is the only real choice now.? Though if James is right, a Full Genome at an reasonable price might not be too many years away.

?

Best,

?

Neil

?

?

?

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of john brazil via
Sent: Tuesday 21 September 2021 19:25
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] Uí Liatháin, Déisi, Ogam, Christianity and Britain (particularly Wales)

?

EXTERNAL EMAIL: This email originated from outside of NUI Galway. Do not open attachments or click on links in the message unless you recognise the sender's email address and believe the content is safe.
R?OMHPHOST SEACHTRACH: Tháinig an ríomhphost seo as áit éigin taobh amuigh de O? Gaillimh. Ná cliceáil ar naisc agus ná hoscail ceangaltáin mura n-aithníonn tú seoladh ríomhphoist an tseoltóra agus mura gcreideann tú go bhfuil an t-ábhar sábháilte.

?

Neil,

?

I think we continue to have slightly different perspectives on the Irish colonists in south Wales and their origins back in Munster.

?

According to Eoin MacNeill the Uí Liathaín led the colonisation of south Wales, accompanied by Déisi and Laigin. He notes that the Déisi, 'after they were expelled? from Meath by Cormac in the latter part of the third century', 'made a prolonged sojourn in Leinster before the main branch of them settled in south east Munster'. Leinster before the Norse and the Anglo-Normans probably included the present day counties of Dublin (south of the Tolka), Kildare, Wicklow, Carlow and Wexford. He also says this settlement, under Oingus (sic), King of Cashel, 'should have taken about the middle of the fifth century.'

?

Nigel (McCarthy) has previously speculated that the Uí Liatháin had migrated from county Limerick to east county Cork though when this might have happened is not known but presumably after A-541 formed. And, potentially, before the Déisi subsequently became their immediate neighbours?

?

Which then begs the question why this southeastern corner of Munster was 'available' for migrations and settlements. Was this area hit particularly hard by depopulation following disease? An idea we have already discussed in terms of the 'Late Iron Age Lull' identified from pollen analysis and dendrochronology.

?

MacNeill goes on to say that, according to Irish tradition, the rulers of the colonists in Dyfed (now Pembroke) were of the dynastic line of the Déisi, but contends (quoting Nennius) that the colonists further east in Gwyr / Gower and Kidweli / Kidwelly were Uí Liatháin. MacNeill, again quoting Nennius, then says that the Uí Liatháin were displaced from Gower and Kidwelly on the coast by the sons of Cunedda in the mid fifth century to more mountainous territory inland in Brycheiniog / Breconshire, a Welsh Kingdom named for one of their line, and subsequently incorporated into the Kingdom of Powys.Whilst the Déisi continued to hold sway in Dyfed in Nennius' time (the ninth century). Cunedda and his line had already displaced Irish colonists in Llyn and Gwynedd (both names of Irish origin apparently). These colonists being of Laigin origin and notably not as fond of Ogam Stones as the Irish colonies in the south.

?

Unfortunately a lot of archaeological remains, including burials, were unscientifically excavated in the Victorian period and the bones since lost ?.

?

As for the A151+ O'Connells and the Uí Fidgenti, I think we may need to wait for Gerry O'Connell to complete his studies.

?

But, Neil, I think I have to argue your speculation that A-151 may not have been a (then) aristocratic line and potentially septless? I think 'prospering' and being 'aristocratic' have gone hand in hand down the millennia particularly as regards Y chromosomes. Each of the various SNPs mutated in a single man and the survival to this day of branches that can be dated so far back suggests to me that particular men's sons thrived and multiplied for so many of them to survive to the present day. Clearly, on the other hand, a lot didn't. Witness Genghis Khan (but not Niall of the Nine Hostages - I? wouldn't argue with Cathy Swift).

?

I agree with you that we need to test more men whose surnames may be associated? with the Uí Liatháin. But our problem is that many of these are multigenetic, occurring in differing lineages and locations.

?

For example Curran. This map is from John Grnham's Surname site.

?

Hayes, Ring, and Gleeson are names associated with the Uí Liatháin but also found in other, different, lines around Ireland. Kiely (Ui Meic Caille?) might be a surname to look at more closely also perhaps? I know Dr Paul MacCotter warns not to extrapolate too far with surnames and the names of territories and septs but if we don't look we won't find.

?

?

And I remain frustrated that I haven't been able to persuade a 'Brazil' originally from Kilfinane, Ballylanders or Kilmallock in east Limerick to test. I suspect they would also be of some interest!

?

John.

?

On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 2:25 PM O'Brien, Neil <neil.obrien@...> wrote:

Hi Elizabeth,

?

Thanks so much for this.

?

To answer your earlier query first, given that the Jones’ kits match to A541>….A151, the presumption is that A151 are descendants either of Deisi or Ui Liathain settlers from Munster found in modern Welsh DNA, ie in the Jones’ kits – both polities are known to have settled in Wales at this time. It would be a bit radical to suggest that A541 formed outside of Munster, regardless of whether upstream snips immediately below, or immediately above CTS4466, formed in Wales. That’s probably a different question - I think we can agree that kits downstream of A541 have a Munster origin and the modern Jones’ kits seem to be an echo of the early eastward migration from Munster to Wales in the 5^th Century.

?

Given the interesting (purported) connection of the two Jones’ kits to the House of Powys, the presumption is that they may descend from the Dyfed settlement period around 450AD with a downstream path A541>A151>FT11485>FT74196. Given that I am FT74196 myself, with a continuous ancestry in Cork (albeit on the western side of the city), it may be argued that my ancestral branch is a ‘stay at home’ branch, and FT74196>BY21620 settled in Dyfed and BY21620 formed there.

?

The argument therefore is whether FT74196 is a characteristic of a migrating branch of the Ui Liathain, or whether they were Deisi federates, given that the genealogical tracts indicate genetic diversity within the Deisi Muman.

?

On balance, given the Derrynane O’Connell branch match to A151, it is possible that A151 are Ui Liathain and not Deisi in origin. Certainly the Derrynane O’Connells list a descent from Daire Cearba, which should establish a connection to the Uí Chonaill Gabra and this possibly indicates a Ui Fidgenti origin, which is what one might expect. However the DNA evidence does not seem to point in this direction. As such it may well be that the O’Connells migrated West from east Cork to Kerry at some point in the medieval period, and have no connection to the ?Uí Chonaill Gabra. This question is discussed on page 32 of Nigel’s article here (PHYLOGENETIC ALIGNMENTS WITH GENEALOGIES OF DESCENT FROM AILILL
?LOM).

?

Of course the pedigree of the Derrynane family dates from Daniel Charles O'Connell, who was ennobled by Louis XVI. An audience with the King, and the ability to present at the French Court required nobles to prove that they were members of the noblesse d'é辫é别, and as such had a pedigree that dated back to the early middle ages. As mentioned before, the Derrynane O’Connells only have a verified pedigree back to the 15^th Century, which may have required a bit of creative fixing to secure their place at the French court. Therefore the patent presented by Daniel Charles O’Connell may be open to question.

?

Discussing this issue with John, he has amassed good evidence to suggest that his own A151 line, found in modern times in Wexford, had an origin in East Cork – this might indicate a eastward travel for his particular branch from an east Cork nucleus. This might reduce the possibility that A151 is a Deisi federate line.

?

It is known that the Ui Liathain disintegrated as a polity in the medieval period, and many pushed west as they (locally) backed the wrong horse in the McCarthy-O’Brien feud. As such there is promising evidence that A151 may find it’s home in the splintered nucleus of a common Ui Liathain ancestry, and on balance that is perhaps the more obvious ancestral origin for the Welsh Jones, rather than a descent from Deisi federates.

?

However I wouldn’t rule out the ancestral core of A151 being found in aithechtuatha mercenaries in federation with the Deisi Muman. All historians agree that the Dyfed settlement has a clear connection with the spread of Ogham stones in south Munster, and the core of this spread is not concentrated to East Cork. Interestingly the core is actually found in the Iveragh peninsula, where one finds the O’Connells of Derrynane – what this means is impossible to ascertain. ?

?

Also the distribution of A151 subclades during the Viking era does suggest a connection with the city of Waterford, which was the main Norse settlement in the south. As such the evidence for A151 is too widespread and scattered to locate an A151 centre in just east Cork – as yet.? As I mentioned before, not all modern lines can possibly descend from the main chiefly lines of Ireland. It is entirely possible that A151 are effectively a ‘septless’ line, with no core in any surname and no loyalty to any single polity. The scattering may suggest that this was a line that prospered not through an aristocratic origin, but rather through the sweat of their own brow and putting themselves up for hire.

?

No conclusion is possible without more DNA evidence, which in time might put the splintered Ui Liathain yDNA profile back together and indeed establish East Cork as the nucleus of A151. If so, then we can certainly begin to look at an Ui Liathain origin.

?

In this regard I haven’t been able to find kit B508479. Could you send me a link so I can look at his stirs? We are proposing to test another Curran as well, as sources appear to indicate that the aristocratic core of the Uí Meic Caille may be found in this surname. If there is a match to A151, this may an interesting road to travel.

?

Best,

?

Neil

?

?

?

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Elizabeth via
Sent: Tuesday 21 September 2021 10:04
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] Uí Liatháin, Déisi, Ogam, Christianity and Britain (particularly Wales)

?

EXTERNAL EMAIL: This email originated from outside of NUI Galway. Do not open attachments or click on links in the message unless you recognise the sender's email address and believe the content is safe.
R?OMHPHOST SEACHTRACH: Tháinig an ríomhphost seo as áit éigin taobh amuigh de O? Gaillimh. Ná cliceáil ar naisc agus ná hoscail ceangaltáin mura n-aithníonn tú seoladh ríomhphoist an tseoltóra agus mura gcreideann tú go bhfuil an t-ábhar sábháilte.

?

I’m back again, having read through much of Neill’s message by now.

?

Neill, one point re Uí Meic Caille (Ui Corrain) / Curran.? There is a small surname project (158, and rather few Y-DNA results) and there is one gent, B508479, who is quite clearly CTS4466.? His haplotype has a few off-modal marker values, which makes it difficult, for me at least, to suggest to which subclade he might belong.? And he shows the US as his Country, so that doesn’t offer us much.

?

I see you repeat your 7 points from the beginning of your message again at the end.? If you accept that the Deisi were in no way related genetically/CTS4466 to the Uí Liatháin, does that alter any of your suppositions?

?

I intend to ruminate a bit more over the whole of the message and will return with any useful thoughts.

?

Thanks again for your efforts.? Elizabeth

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of john brazil
Sent: 17 September 2021 13:02
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] Uí Liatháin, Déisi, Ogam, Christianity and Britain (particularly Wales)

?

Hi Elizabeth,

?

I have taken the liberty of editing the subject line? again - to distinguish this thread from James's.

?

No, I don't think anyone is suggesting that the move of the Uí Liatháin and the Déisi to Wales and Cornwall in the 3rd / 4th century AD represents the source of all CTS4466 in Wales though it does warrant an examination of other CTS4466 subclades for Welsh-looking surnames and, indeed, those projects that might be associated with the Déisi. Unfortunately many of these latter have been a lot less active than our project and are focused on surnames rather than haplotypes. I agree with you that the tendency is for these mutations to be older than we have thought previously.

?

I will contact Lara to see what scope there might be to analyse our three samples in more detail.

?

All the best,

?

John

?

On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 11:41 AM Elizabeth <elizabeth@...> wrote:

Neill, John, All,

?

I am yet to read through all the messages thoroughly, but am I to gather that the discussion is meant to suggest that the move of the Ui Liathain and Deisi to Wales is the source of CTS4466 in Wales, rather than the subclade originating there?

?

I know TMRCA/formation dates are fluid, but I still contend that assuming carbon dating is more reliable than statistical analysis of DNA mutations, then based on the dates from Cassidy’s paper, the haplogroups overall are older than is currently being estimated.? Could the two FGC11134 gents in Fermanagh and Sligo, separated by over 300 years, be the very first men of that mutation?? How likely/coincidental could that be??

?

And, as I’ve point out, we don’t know if those samples were or could be tested for further downstream mutations.? Some sample were probably better quality than others and/or some were tested more deeply. The A151 sample is considerably younger, hence probably of better quality.? I can’t help but wonder that if more funds had been available for this project, would deeper testing have been done.? And on from that, if more funds were made available, would they do more.? I certainly would contribute to have the three samples of interest to us be tested more deeply.

?

John, with your interactions with Lara, do you think there is any possibility that providing funding would produce more testing?

?

Elizabeth

?

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Elizabeth
Sent: 15 September 2021 22:38
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] Y-DNA Warehouse Tree Tech Demo

?

Hello, Neill.

?

This is indeed a significantly long missive, which I will read through, though it may take a while…

Hello, Neil.

?

A bit late in responding to your and John’s various notes.? First, to answer your earlier question, the link to the Curran results is .?

?

I have made some comments in red below to specific points you’ve made.? A few other things:

?

Based on the research in our Munster Irish project, we have these surnames historically associated with the Deisi:? O'Bric, a sept of ? Donnchadha, O'Flannagáin, O'Foghladha, O'Cein, O'Mearadhaigh, ? Néill, O'Faelain.? Are you aware of any others?? None of the listed surnames feature in CTS4466 except a few Whalen outliers (not A151) none of whom match each other and almost surely attained their surname through means other than Deisi origins.? I gather you have come to agree that A151 is not Deisi.

?

In the Topographical Poems of John O'Dubhagain (d 1372) and Giolla Na Naomh O'Huidhrin (d 1420), the O'Conghaile/O’Connells are listed as Corca Dhuibhne, which is consistent with their territory (which is the heartland of the Ogham stones).? I might add that Daniel O’Connell was himself not what you would consider a modest man.? His carriage is preserved at Derrynane, and it is one of the most opulent displays I have ever seen – far outstripping the current English royal carriages in use.? Fabricating an adequate genealogy for himself would be a small trifle to accomplish.

?

In the Munster Irish project, about half of the O’Connells are from Kerry, the others Cork/Tipp/Waterford or unknown origins beyond Ireland.? All under B42 > A7659.? For the A7654 Kerry O’Connells to have not found a further downstream branch suggests that they are not closely enough related to do so, which also suggests that their overall population is greater than the Cork/Tipp/Waterford gents.

?

Since the O’Connells are so consistently found under branches of B42, I would interpret that to mean that the Kerry O’Connells are the source of the others in Cork/Tipp/Waterford rather than the other way round, which would mean that this branch of A151 migrated west early on.? To be considered Corca Dhuibhne would suggest quite early on.? But Derrynane is right on the coast, so a jaunt up the coast from the east side would be a simple journey, and the inviting environs of Kerry could have been enough to decide to settle there.

?

There is a Jones (most recent origins two centuries back in London) in B42 > A7659 as well, which suggests that one of the cousins sailed east instead and settled in Wales early enough to assume the Jones surname, eventually ending up on the east coast of England.? I would think to consider him as and ‘English’ Jones would miss the obvious.

?

All fascinating…

?

Elizabeth

?

?

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of O'Brien, Neil
Sent: 21 September 2021 23:27
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] Uí Liatháin, Déisi, Ogam, Christianity and Britain (particularly Wales)

?

Hi John,

?

Thanks for this. I don’t disagree with you at all – I think you’re on the right track and will celebrate when you are proved correct – you make a good case. ?I doubt if we can or will be able to actually ‘prove’ much of our deliberations.? While DNA testing does provide ‘facts’, interpretating the data is just that – subjective interpretation. ?There are undoubtedly 3 possible sources for invasion DNA in modern Welsh DNA from Ui Liathain; Deisi Muman and Laigin ( the latter seem to have been in concentration in north Wales?). There are, of course, a number of problems:-

?

1. A relative paucity for Irish DNA found in the modern population Welsh population that can be linked to the invasion due to a lack of kit samples. We’ve made progress with the two Jones kits, but a hell of a long way to go. I’d really like to see a yDNA match between the Jones’ and the Trevors to confirm a connection to the House of Powys for A151 - there are gaps in the Jones’ tale. This is a potential avenue for future exploration. It’s possible that invasion DNA in Wales might be sparse. In contrast Dalriadic DNA in Scotland is plentiful.
2. What significance is there to the west-east spread of Ogham stones, concentrating in the south west of Ireland? All historical scholarship agrees that there is an undoubted connection between the spread of the stones and Dyfed. What is this ‘coastal culture’ along the entire south coast of Ireland telling us?
3. Again, I have concerns about the spread nature of A151 haplotypes. Undoubtedly 3 events in the medieval era might be linked to this, if A151 are an Ui Liathain subclade ?– the Viking invasion and the unsettled nature of Munster in the 11^th and 12^th Century and the 13^th Century Norman invasion. It would seem that the Ui Liathain may have been greatly weakened by the Norsemen, and scattered by the McCarthys, and finally completely forced out by Barrys in the Cambro-Norman push into their territory. More Irish samplers are needed into various Ui Liathain related surnames to see if this scattering can be explained and whether modern Ui Liathain surnames will be A151 positive – there’s very little evidence emerging so far. As you say, this is a frustratingly slow process.
4. The final thing that concerns me is the relatively small number of A151 haplotypes in the CTS4466 family discovered so far – around 10%. ?A151 is not the only ‘smaller’ subclade – several are even less populous.? At this point, I doubt that there would be a ‘discovery’ of many more.? For whatever combination of reasons, other subclades have produced a greater population.? We do know that the more successful subclades of CTS4466 are found in S1121 and Z21065, and have gradually come to be associated with a number of modern surname types which emerged from the older the Corca Laidhe and Corcu Duibne polities after surnames emerged in the 11^th and 12^th Century in Ireland. It’s well known that, even at the twilight of Gaelic Ireland, in a system of succession based on near blood tanistry, a successful chieftain would be expected to produce a large Derbfhine, and for that reason the marriage bed in the elite lines was rarely monogamous, and chieftains liberally divorced and remarried – in many cases for strategic reasons. It is, perhaps, for this reason, that S1121 is a particularly large haplotype. Arguably less successful lines might be more susceptible to bottleneck events and less able to use the marriage bed as a system for forming alliances. I’m also a bit curious about why A151 has proved so susceptible to probable Viking interference – common men are probably less likely to have been ransomed than elite lines. I take your point that breeding isn’t necessarily a hallmark of success, but it is a factor all the same. ?This could be perceived to be a rather disparaging remark.? Viking interaction is not necessarily ‘interference’.? Being coastal almost certainly means more prone to travelling the waves.? While some ports were frequent sources of slave trade, merchant trade is just as likely.? And just as there were intrusions in Wales, so too could contact with the Scandinavian countries been common.

?

So whilst wholeheartedly supporting your Ui Laithain theory, in the full hope that it eventually bears fruit, there are other mysteries and considerations that may also be at play. ?

?

On balance I think your ideas are probably leading in the right direction and the problem is trying to get more samplers to test. A cheaper option, of course is to try and ascertain haplotypes from ySTRs, which isn’t always as easy. In fact I’ve tried, very unsuccessfully, to try and build a ySTR profile for A541>A151>FT11485? While there are some branches that have clear demarcating marker values, such as the 18 at DYS481 vs the overall modal of 22 amazingly consistent amongst the A212 subclade, on average, modals beyond some individual surname groups are not always apparent.? Nigel has done an amazing job of identifying those commonalities in his IT2 Phylogenetic Tree, but he generally won’t even include 67 marker haplotypes in his calculations.

?

Certainly the FT74196 branch line definitely has a stable ySTR pattern, and on the whole a combination (in whole or in part) of the following STRs robustly points to kits being A541>A151>FT11485>FT74196 positive, viz.:-

?

DYS439 = 11 or 12 (CTS4466 marker reverts to Atlantic modal occasionally)

DYS458 = 18

DYS437 = 14

DYS537 = 11

DYS638 = 12

DYS452 = 31

DYS525 = 11

DYS504 = 17

?

Your branch, A541>A151>FT11485>A714 is a far more tricky prospect, but the following might be generally observed (the sibling branches also have definitely downstream affinities, but not useful to expound here):-

?

R-A714>…./R-BY111005 (has a nice broad surname mix):-

?

• All branch lines consistently have marker value 15 DYS19
• 17 at DYS458
• 15 at DYS607
• 16 at DYS557

?

R-A714> A715…./ R-FT12788 (again nice broad surname mix):-

?

• All branch lines consistently have marker value 25 at DYS635
• 17 at DYS458
• 15 at DYS607
• 16 at DYS557

?

R-A714> A715…./R-BY187664 (a relatively large number of kits, but all come from the same stable - surname Hill):-

?

• All branch lines consistently have marker value 25 at DYS390
• All branch lines consistently have marker value 16 at DYS607
• All branch lines consistently have marker value 17 at DYS570
• All branch lines consistently have marker value 12 at DYS442
• 17 at DYS458
• 15 at DYS607
• 16 at DYS557

?

R-A714>A715….R-FGC23796 (surnames Davison and Thrasher)

?

• There is no unique haplotype marker that distinguishes it very much from others in the CTS4466 haplogroup, except the markers below, but these are very occasionally seen in combination in other haplotypes
• 17 at DYS458
• 15 at DYS607
• 16 at DYS557

?

I’m afraid I haven’t the energy to analyse the other A151 types as yet. However the markers identified above might prove a cheaper way of enticing people to test, with perhaps individual snip testing or snip pack.? The current SNP Pack for CTS4466 is hardly used anymore.? With the great increase in branching, the limited number of SNPs tested in it is hardly worth the cost.? The Big Y is now so much more affordable, it is the only real choice now.? Though if James is right, a Full Genome at an reasonable price might not be too many years away.

?

Best,

?

Neil

?

?

?

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of john brazil via
Sent: Tuesday 21 September 2021 19:25
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] Uí Liatháin, Déisi, Ogam, Christianity and Britain (particularly Wales)

?

EXTERNAL EMAIL: This email originated from outside of NUI Galway. Do not open attachments or click on links in the message unless you recognise the sender's email address and believe the content is safe.
R?OMHPHOST SEACHTRACH: Tháinig an ríomhphost seo as áit éigin taobh amuigh de O? Gaillimh. Ná cliceáil ar naisc agus ná hoscail ceangaltáin mura n-aithníonn tú seoladh ríomhphoist an tseoltóra agus mura gcreideann tú go bhfuil an t-ábhar sábháilte.

?

Neil,

?

I think we continue to have slightly different perspectives on the Irish colonists in south Wales and their origins back in Munster.

?

According to Eoin MacNeill the Uí Liathaín led the colonisation of south Wales, accompanied by Déisi and Laigin. He notes that the Déisi, 'after they were expelled? from Meath by Cormac in the latter part of the third century', 'made a prolonged sojourn in Leinster before the main branch of them settled in south east Munster'. Leinster before the Norse and the Anglo-Normans probably included the present day counties of Dublin (south of the Tolka), Kildare, Wicklow, Carlow and Wexford. He also says this settlement, under Oingus (sic), King of Cashel, 'should have taken about the middle of the fifth century.'

?

Nigel (McCarthy) has previously speculated that the Uí Liatháin had migrated from county Limerick to east county Cork though when this might have happened is not known but presumably after A-541 formed. And, potentially, before the Déisi subsequently became their immediate neighbours?

?

Which then begs the question why this southeastern corner of Munster was 'available' for migrations and settlements. Was this area hit particularly hard by depopulation following disease? An idea we have already discussed in terms of the 'Late Iron Age Lull' identified from pollen analysis and dendrochronology.

?

MacNeill goes on to say that, according to Irish tradition, the rulers of the colonists in Dyfed (now Pembroke) were of the dynastic line of the Déisi, but contends (quoting Nennius) that the colonists further east in Gwyr / Gower and Kidweli / Kidwelly were Uí Liatháin. MacNeill, again quoting Nennius, then says that the Uí Liatháin were displaced from Gower and Kidwelly on the coast by the sons of Cunedda in the mid fifth century to more mountainous territory inland in Brycheiniog / Breconshire, a Welsh Kingdom named for one of their line, and subsequently incorporated into the Kingdom of Powys.Whilst the Déisi continued to hold sway in Dyfed in Nennius' time (the ninth century). Cunedda and his line had already displaced Irish colonists in Llyn and Gwynedd (both names of Irish origin apparently). These colonists being of Laigin origin and notably not as fond of Ogam Stones as the Irish colonies in the south.

?

Unfortunately a lot of archaeological remains, including burials, were unscientifically excavated in the Victorian period and the bones since lost ?.

?

As for the A151+ O'Connells and the Uí Fidgenti, I think we may need to wait for Gerry O'Connell to complete his studies.

?

But, Neil, I think I have to argue your speculation that A-151 may not have been a (then) aristocratic line and potentially septless? I think 'prospering' and being 'aristocratic' have gone hand in hand down the millennia particularly as regards Y chromosomes. Each of the various SNPs mutated in a single man and the survival to this day of branches that can be dated so far back suggests to me that particular men's sons thrived and multiplied for so many of them to survive to the present day. Clearly, on the other hand, a lot didn't. Witness Genghis Khan (but not Niall of the Nine Hostages - I? wouldn't argue with Cathy Swift).

?

I agree with you that we need to test more men whose surnames may be associated? with the Uí Liatháin. But our problem is that many of these are multigenetic, occurring in differing lineages and locations.

?

For example Curran. This map is from John Grnham's Surname site.

?

Hayes, Ring, and Gleeson are names associated with the Uí Liatháin but also found in other, different, lines around Ireland. Kiely (Ui Meic Caille?) might be a surname to look at more closely also perhaps? I know Dr Paul MacCotter warns not to extrapolate too far with surnames and the names of territories and septs but if we don't look we won't find.

?

?

And I remain frustrated that I haven't been able to persuade a 'Brazil' originally from Kilfinane, Ballylanders or Kilmallock in east Limerick to test. I suspect they would also be of some interest!

?

John.

?

On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 2:25 PM O'Brien, Neil <neil.obrien@...> wrote:

Hi Elizabeth,

?

Thanks so much for this.

?

To answer your earlier query first, given that the Jones’ kits match to A541>….A151, the presumption is that A151 are descendants either of Deisi or Ui Liathain settlers from Munster found in modern Welsh DNA, ie in the Jones’ kits – both polities are known to have settled in Wales at this time. It would be a bit radical to suggest that A541 formed outside of Munster, regardless of whether upstream snips immediately below, or immediately above CTS4466, formed in Wales. That’s probably a different question - I think we can agree that kits downstream of A541 have a Munster origin and the modern Jones’ kits seem to be an echo of the early eastward migration from Munster to Wales in the 5^th Century.

?

Given the interesting (purported) connection of the two Jones’ kits to the House of Powys, the presumption is that they may descend from the Dyfed settlement period around 450AD with a downstream path A541>A151>FT11485>FT74196. Given that I am FT74196 myself, with a continuous ancestry in Cork (albeit on the western side of the city), it may be argued that my ancestral branch is a ‘stay at home’ branch, and FT74196>BY21620 settled in Dyfed and BY21620 formed there.

?

The argument therefore is whether FT74196 is a characteristic of a migrating branch of the Ui Liathain, or whether they were Deisi federates, given that the genealogical tracts indicate genetic diversity within the Deisi Muman.

?

On balance, given the Derrynane O’Connell branch match to A151, it is possible that A151 are Ui Liathain and not Deisi in origin. Certainly the Derrynane O’Connells list a descent from Daire Cearba, which should establish a connection to the Uí Chonaill Gabra and this possibly indicates a Ui Fidgenti origin, which is what one might expect. However the DNA evidence does not seem to point in this direction. As such it may well be that the O’Connells migrated West from east Cork to Kerry at some point in the medieval period, and have no connection to the ?Uí Chonaill Gabra. This question is discussed on page 32 of Nigel’s article here (PHYLOGENETIC ALIGNMENTS WITH GENEALOGIES OF DESCENT FROM AILILL
?LOM).

?

Of course the pedigree of the Derrynane family dates from Daniel Charles O'Connell, who was ennobled by Louis XVI. An audience with the King, and the ability to present at the French Court required nobles to prove that they were members of the noblesse d'é辫é别, and as such had a pedigree that dated back to the early middle ages. As mentioned before, the Derrynane O’Connells only have a verified pedigree back to the 15^th Century, which may have required a bit of creative fixing to secure their place at the French court. Therefore the patent presented by Daniel Charles O’Connell may be open to question.

?

Discussing this issue with John, he has amassed good evidence to suggest that his own A151 line, found in modern times in Wexford, had an origin in East Cork – this might indicate a eastward travel for his particular branch from an east Cork nucleus. This might reduce the possibility that A151 is a Deisi federate line.

?

It is known that the Ui Liathain disintegrated as a polity in the medieval period, and many pushed west as they (locally) backed the wrong horse in the McCarthy-O’Brien feud. As such there is promising evidence that A151 may find it’s home in the splintered nucleus of a common Ui Liathain ancestry, and on balance that is perhaps the more obvious ancestral origin for the Welsh Jones, rather than a descent from Deisi federates.

?

However I wouldn’t rule out the ancestral core of A151 being found in aithechtuatha mercenaries in federation with the Deisi Muman. All historians agree that the Dyfed settlement has a clear connection with the spread of Ogham stones in south Munster, and the core of this spread is not concentrated to East Cork. Interestingly the core is actually found in the Iveragh peninsula, where one finds the O’Connells of Derrynane – what this means is impossible to ascertain. ?

?

Also the distribution of A151 subclades during the Viking era does suggest a connection with the city of Waterford, which was the main Norse settlement in the south. As such the evidence for A151 is too widespread and scattered to locate an A151 centre in just east Cork – as yet.? As I mentioned before, not all modern lines can possibly descend from the main chiefly lines of Ireland. It is entirely possible that A151 are effectively a ‘septless’ line, with no core in any surname and no loyalty to any single polity. The scattering may suggest that this was a line that prospered not through an aristocratic origin, but rather through the sweat of their own brow and putting themselves up for hire.

?

No conclusion is possible without more DNA evidence, which in time might put the splintered Ui Liathain yDNA profile back together and indeed establish East Cork as the nucleus of A151. If so, then we can certainly begin to look at an Ui Liathain origin.

?

In this regard I haven’t been able to find kit B508479. Could you send me a link so I can look at his stirs? We are proposing to test another Curran as well, as sources appear to indicate that the aristocratic core of the Uí Meic Caille may be found in this surname. If there is a match to A151, this may an interesting road to travel.

?

Best,

?

Neil

?

?

?

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Elizabeth via
Sent: Tuesday 21 September 2021 10:04
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] Uí Liatháin, Déisi, Ogam, Christianity and Britain (particularly Wales)

?

EXTERNAL EMAIL: This email originated from outside of NUI Galway. Do not open attachments or click on links in the message unless you recognise the sender's email address and believe the content is safe.
R?OMHPHOST SEACHTRACH: Tháinig an ríomhphost seo as áit éigin taobh amuigh de O? Gaillimh. Ná cliceáil ar naisc agus ná hoscail ceangaltáin mura n-aithníonn tú seoladh ríomhphoist an tseoltóra agus mura gcreideann tú go bhfuil an t-ábhar sábháilte.

?

I’m back again, having read through much of Neill’s message by now.

?

Neill, one point re Uí Meic Caille (Ui Corrain) / Curran.? There is a small surname project (158, and rather few Y-DNA results) and there is one gent, B508479, who is quite clearly CTS4466.? His haplotype has a few off-modal marker values, which makes it difficult, for me at least, to suggest to which subclade he might belong.? And he shows the US as his Country, so that doesn’t offer us much.

?

I see you repeat your 7 points from the beginning of your message again at the end.? If you accept that the Deisi were in no way related genetically/CTS4466 to the Uí Liatháin, does that alter any of your suppositions?

?

I intend to ruminate a bit more over the whole of the message and will return with any useful thoughts.

?

Thanks again for your efforts.? Elizabeth

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of john brazil
Sent: 17 September 2021 13:02
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] Uí Liatháin, Déisi, Ogam, Christianity and Britain (particularly Wales)

?

Hi Elizabeth,

?

I have taken the liberty of editing the subject line? again - to distinguish this thread from James's.

?

No, I don't think anyone is suggesting that the move of the Uí Liatháin and the Déisi to Wales and Cornwall in the 3rd / 4th century AD represents the source of all CTS4466 in Wales though it does warrant an examination of other CTS4466 subclades for Welsh-looking surnames and, indeed, those projects that might be associated with the Déisi. Unfortunately many of these latter have been a lot less active than our project and are focused on surnames rather than haplotypes. I agree with you that the tendency is for these mutations to be older than we have thought previously.

?

I will contact Lara to see what scope there might be to analyse our three samples in more detail.

?

All the best,

?

John

?

On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 11:41 AM Elizabeth <elizabeth@...> wrote:

Neill, John, All,

?

I am yet to read through all the messages thoroughly, but am I to gather that the discussion is meant to suggest that the move of the Ui Liathain and Deisi to Wales is the source of CTS4466 in Wales, rather than the subclade originating there?

?

I know TMRCA/formation dates are fluid, but I still contend that assuming carbon dating is more reliable than statistical analysis of DNA mutations, then based on the dates from Cassidy’s paper, the haplogroups overall are older than is currently being estimated.? Could the two FGC11134 gents in Fermanagh and Sligo, separated by over 300 years, be the very first men of that mutation?? How likely/coincidental could that be??

?

And, as I’ve point out, we don’t know if those samples were or could be tested for further downstream mutations.? Some sample were probably better quality than others and/or some were tested more deeply. The A151 sample is considerably younger, hence probably of better quality.? I can’t help but wonder that if more funds had been available for this project, would deeper testing have been done.? And on from that, if more funds were made available, would they do more.? I certainly would contribute to have the three samples of interest to us be tested more deeply.

?

John, with your interactions with Lara, do you think there is any possibility that providing funding would produce more testing?

?

Elizabeth

?

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Elizabeth
Sent: 15 September 2021 22:38
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] Y-DNA Warehouse Tree Tech Demo

?

Hello, Neill.

?

This is indeed a significantly long missive, which I will read through, though it may take a while…

Hi Elizabeth,

?

Thanks so much for this.

?

To answer your earlier query first, given that the Jones’ kits match to A541>….A151, the presumption is that A151 are descendants either of Deisi or Ui Liathain settlers from Munster found in modern Welsh DNA, ie in the Jones’ kits – both polities are known to have settled in Wales at this time. It would be a bit radical to suggest that A541 formed outside of Munster, regardless of whether upstream snips immediately below, or immediately above CTS4466, formed in Wales. That’s probably a different question - I think we can agree that kits downstream of A541 have a Munster origin and the modern Jones’ kits seem to be an echo of the early eastward migration from Munster to Wales in the 5^th Century.

?

Given the interesting (purported) connection of the two Jones’ kits to the House of Powys, the presumption is that they may descend from the Dyfed settlement period around 450AD with a downstream path A541>A151>FT11485>FT74196. Given that I am FT74196 myself, with a continuous ancestry in Cork (albeit on the western side of the city), it may be argued that my ancestral branch is a ‘stay at home’ branch, and FT74196>BY21620 settled in Dyfed and BY21620 formed there.

?

The argument therefore is whether FT74196 is a characteristic of a migrating branch of the Ui Liathain, or whether they were Deisi federates, given that the genealogical tracts indicate genetic diversity within the Deisi Muman.

?

On balance, given the Derrynane O’Connell branch match to A151, it is possible that A151 are Ui Liathain and not Deisi in origin. Certainly the Derrynane O’Connells list a descent from Daire Cearba, which should establish a connection to the Uí Chonaill Gabra and this possibly indicates a Ui Fidgenti origin, which is what one might expect. However the DNA evidence does not seem to point in this direction. As such it may well be that the O’Connells migrated West from east Cork to Kerry at some point in the medieval period, and have no connection to the ?Uí Chonaill Gabra. This question is discussed on page 32 of Nigel’s article here (PHYLOGENETIC ALIGNMENTS WITH GENEALOGIES OF DESCENT FROM AILILL
?LOM).

?

Of course the pedigree of the Derrynane family dates from Daniel Charles O'Connell, who was ennobled by Louis XVI. An audience with the King, and the ability to present at the French Court required nobles to prove that they were members of the noblesse d'é辫é别, and as such had a pedigree that dated back to the early middle ages. As mentioned before, the Derrynane O’Connells only have a verified pedigree back to the 15^th Century, which may have required a bit of creative fixing to secure their place at the French court. Therefore the patent presented by Daniel Charles O’Connell may be open to question.

?

Discussing this issue with John, he has amassed good evidence to suggest that his own A151 line, found in modern times in Wexford, had an origin in East Cork – this might indicate a eastward travel for his particular branch from an east Cork nucleus. This might reduce the possibility that A151 is a Deisi federate line.

?

It is known that the Ui Liathain disintegrated as a polity in the medieval period, and many pushed west as they (locally) backed the wrong horse in the McCarthy-O’Brien feud. As such there is promising evidence that A151 may find it’s home in the splintered nucleus of a common Ui Liathain ancestry, and on balance that is perhaps the more obvious ancestral origin for the Welsh Jones, rather than a descent from Deisi federates.

?

However I wouldn’t rule out the ancestral core of A151 being found in aithechtuatha mercenaries in federation with the Deisi Muman. All historians agree that the Dyfed settlement has a clear connection with the spread of Ogham stones in south Munster, and the core of this spread is not concentrated to East Cork. Interestingly the core is actually found in the Iveragh peninsula, where one finds the O’Connells of Derrynane – what this means is impossible to ascertain. ?

?

Also the distribution of A151 subclades during the Viking era does suggest a connection with the city of Waterford, which was the main Norse settlement in the south. As such the evidence for A151 is too widespread and scattered to locate an A151 centre in just east Cork – as yet.? As I mentioned before, not all modern lines can possibly descend from the main chiefly lines of Ireland. It is entirely possible that A151 are effectively a ‘septless’ line, with no core in any surname and no loyalty to any single polity. The scattering may suggest that this was a line that prospered not through an aristocratic origin, but rather through the sweat of their own brow and putting themselves up for hire.

?

No conclusion is possible without more DNA evidence, which in time might put the splintered Ui Liathain yDNA profile back together and indeed establish East Cork as the nucleus of A151. If so, then we can certainly begin to look at an Ui Liathain origin.

?

In this regard I haven’t been able to find kit B508479. Could you send me a link so I can look at his stirs? We are proposing to test another Curran as well, as sources appear to indicate that the aristocratic core of the Uí Meic Caille may be found in this surname. If there is a match to A151, this may an interesting road to travel.

?

Best,

?

Neil

?

?

?

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Elizabeth via
Sent: Tuesday 21 September 2021 10:04
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] Uí Liatháin, Déisi, Ogam, Christianity and Britain (particularly Wales)

?

EXTERNAL EMAIL: This email originated from outside of NUI Galway. Do not open attachments or click on links in the message unless you recognise the sender's email address and believe the content is safe.
R?OMHPHOST SEACHTRACH: Tháinig an ríomhphost seo as áit éigin taobh amuigh de O? Gaillimh. Ná cliceáil ar naisc agus ná hoscail ceangaltáin mura n-aithníonn tú seoladh ríomhphoist an tseoltóra agus mura gcreideann tú go bhfuil an t-ábhar sábháilte.

?

I’m back again, having read through much of Neill’s message by now.

?

Neill, one point re Uí Meic Caille (Ui Corrain) / Curran.? There is a small surname project (158, and rather few Y-DNA results) and there is one gent, B508479, who is quite clearly CTS4466.? His haplotype has a few off-modal marker values, which makes it difficult, for me at least, to suggest to which subclade he might belong.? And he shows the US as his Country, so that doesn’t offer us much.

?

I see you repeat your 7 points from the beginning of your message again at the end.? If you accept that the Deisi were in no way related genetically/CTS4466 to the Uí Liatháin, does that alter any of your suppositions?

?

I intend to ruminate a bit more over the whole of the message and will return with any useful thoughts.

?

Thanks again for your efforts.? Elizabeth

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of john brazil
Sent: 17 September 2021 13:02
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] Uí Liatháin, Déisi, Ogam, Christianity and Britain (particularly Wales)

?

Hi Elizabeth,

?

I have taken the liberty of editing the subject line? again - to distinguish this thread from James's.

?

No, I don't think anyone is suggesting that the move of the Uí Liatháin and the Déisi to Wales and Cornwall in the 3rd / 4th century AD represents the source of all CTS4466 in Wales though it does warrant an examination of other CTS4466 subclades for Welsh-looking surnames and, indeed, those projects that might be associated with the Déisi. Unfortunately many of these latter have been a lot less active than our project and are focused on surnames rather than haplotypes. I agree with you that the tendency is for these mutations to be older than we have thought previously.

?

I will contact Lara to see what scope there might be to analyse our three samples in more detail.

?

All the best,

?

John

?

On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 11:41 AM Elizabeth <elizabeth@...> wrote:

Neill, John, All,

?

I am yet to read through all the messages thoroughly, but am I to gather that the discussion is meant to suggest that the move of the Ui Liathain and Deisi to Wales is the source of CTS4466 in Wales, rather than the subclade originating there?

?

I know TMRCA/formation dates are fluid, but I still contend that assuming carbon dating is more reliable than statistical analysis of DNA mutations, then based on the dates from Cassidy’s paper, the haplogroups overall are older than is currently being estimated.? Could the two FGC11134 gents in Fermanagh and Sligo, separated by over 300 years, be the very first men of that mutation?? How likely/coincidental could that be??

?

And, as I’ve point out, we don’t know if those samples were or could be tested for further downstream mutations.? Some sample were probably better quality than others and/or some were tested more deeply. The A151 sample is considerably younger, hence probably of better quality.? I can’t help but wonder that if more funds had been available for this project, would deeper testing have been done.? And on from that, if more funds were made available, would they do more.? I certainly would contribute to have the three samples of interest to us be tested more deeply.

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John, with your interactions with Lara, do you think there is any possibility that providing funding would produce more testing?

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Elizabeth

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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Elizabeth
Sent: 15 September 2021 22:38
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] Y-DNA Warehouse Tree Tech Demo

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Hello, Neill.

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This is indeed a significantly long missive, which I will read through, though it may take a while…

Dear John,

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Thank you for your very detailed response, much appreciated indeed.

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I must say I do like your theory for A151+ finding a core within the Ui Liathain and it’s a good working theory. The problem with it is a near total absence modern of DNA from Currans and Lyons etc, and where it does exist it is not a fit. It seems clear that the aristocratic core of the Ui Liathain might be found in the Uí Meic Caille branch septs of West Cork and Kerry, given their medieval connection to the heartland of Cloyne - the centre of the cult of Saint Colmán. The Uí Meic Caille seem to have been pushed out by the McCarthys in the 12^th century at the tail end of O’Brien McCarthy feud. Therefore there is a long way to go yet, but this is perhaps a signpost of where one might go to look if one wants to find modern DNA in the context of ancient Ui Liathain DNA.

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As already mentioned, the matching of O’Connell to A151+ is interesting in the context of their (alleged) common ancestry from Dáire Cerbba. However it seems clear that there a mismatch to the O’Donovans, and other Ui Fidgenti septs, which is a problem – you have noted this yourself.

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I also accept your point in relation to the elite line of the Deisi Muman showing good evidence for a match to R-CTS1751. Elizabeth also pointed this out last night and it jumps out of the screen in the surname match to Whelan, Phelan etc. under this subclade. Its clear that the elite line of the Deisi is probably to be found here, but it must be remembered that not man alive in Ireland today is descended from a chiefly line.

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There is an alternative explanation for A151+ which I must say I like equally well to your theory in regard to an ancestral core in the Ui Liathain, and that is that A151+ were base vassals and will therefore not be found in concentration in any substantial medieval sept, except of course the O’Connells. Despite the stated ancestry of the Derrynane line, it is possible that they are a sept that rose in Corcu Duibne region, but are clearly not related to the O’Sheas, who were the paramount line of the Corcu Duibne, if that line is indeed R-BY402. Perhaps I am not looking in the right place, but I haven’t been able to any reliable that would establish a relationship between the Kerry O’Connells and the Uí Chonaill Gabra, other than the pretensions of the family itself.

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Indeed I’m just thumbing through Huish’s biography of Daniel O’Connell and it makes a few interesting points. Firstly it says that the ancestry of the Ui Connells of Derrynane can only be verified back to the commencement of the 15^th Century, where they were Stewarts of the McCarthy castle of Ballycarbery in Cahersiveen. Huish notes that prior to the 15^th century ‘few Irish families’ can verify their ancestry ‘by those legal documents, by which genealogy is best authenticated’. However he does claim, on behalf of the Liberator, that ‘it would appear’ that the ancestral head of the family was the chief of Upper and Lower Conelloe in Co. Limerick.

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During the reign of Elizabeth I, Richard O’Connell was the head of the Kerry family and was confirmed in his estates by surrender and regrant. In 1586 his eldest son Morgan was High Sherriff of Kerry and in the interim the family was transported to Clare during the Cromwellian invasion. Morgan’s great-grandson, Daniel of Aghagabhar, was the first to locate the family near Waterville, but they also remained in the Cahersiveen area and Daniel O’Connell himself was born in the vicinity of the town.

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As such, there is a question mark whether the O’Connells ancestry is connected to Uí Chonaill Gabra, and is a branch line in descent from Dáire Cerbba, or whether its ancestry is found in Corcu Duibne as vassals of the Séaghdha.

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As such, it is not unreasonable to present a case that A151 might be one of the aithechthúath tribes of the Deisi. As ? Cathasaigh points out, the Deisi were allied to the seed of Fiachrach Suighe, but not in descent from his line. The genealogies make clear that there was a federation of 50 different base tuath in vassalage (aithechthúath) to the Dal Fiachrach Suighe amongst the Deisi Muman. This would seem to indicate that there is a lot of genetic diversity to be found in the Deisi Mumam, and possibly explains why you’re finding Brazils in Wexford with very diverse DNA.

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This is a point that I think I did not make sufficiently well in my text below. My proposal is that A151 may be found in the Ui Liathain, but equally it may be a base vassal haplotype as a federate of the Deisi Muman. I don’t think I have separated this point out at all successfully, but I’m clarifying now. In the context of Wales, both theories are of interest.

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A151+ is quite a scattered subclade in modern Munster and South Leinster, and I might point out that this scattering (albeit from a base of very small DNA evidence) very much seems to follow the path of Ogham stones, which in their greatest concentration are to be found in Corcu Duibne, spreading out to south Wales. As such, it is entirely possible that the ancestors of A151 are aithechthúath, and will not therefore be found in concentration in any particular Sept (except the O’Connells of course), or in any particular geographic location, but spread wide across the south east coast.

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As such it is possible that A151+ were a base aithechthúath people living along the south coast. However labouring vassals are unlikely to have achieved literacy. A possible alternative is that they were mercenaries, which would very much put them in the context of guns, or rather spears, for hire in the Roman military apparatus, and contact with the Roman world might have resulted in literacy spreading across southern Ireland and the creation of monuments to fallen brothers in the context of Ogham stones stretching from Corcu Duibne to south Wales. It also might follow that these aithechthúath were the Attacotti, and A151 are just one of many clades in the Deisi federation.

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Though there is , of course, a great gap in time from the age of Late Antiquity to the early middle ages, and the era of the Norse in Ireland. However arguably one might also ascertain a similar trend – warriors for hire, or men taken by force into slavery from along the south coast, with a possible connection to Waterford city. Base men were less likely to be ransomed and freed, and more likely to offer their services to anyone who paid, with no loyalty to any regional polity.

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What do you think of this?

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Best,

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Neil

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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of john brazil via
Sent: Thursday 16 September 2021 14:56
To: [email protected]
Subject: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] Uí Liatháin, Déisi, Ogam, Christianity and Britain (particularly Wales)

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EXTERNAL EMAIL: This email originated from outside of NUI Galway. Do not open attachments or click on links in the message unless you recognise the sender's email address and believe the content is safe.
R?OMHPHOST SEACHTRACH: Tháinig an ríomhphost seo as áit éigin taobh amuigh de O? Gaillimh. Ná cliceáil ar naisc agus ná hoscail ceangaltáin mura n-aithníonn tú seoladh ríomhphoist an tseoltóra agus mura gcreideann tú go bhfuil an t-ábhar sábháilte.

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Wow (again!) Neil !!!

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Though for the sake of bandwidth I have cut the tail off this thread and, also, renamed the subject to match the content ?.

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May I add some thoughts to this tour de force?

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Dáire Cerbba may well have been born in County Meath but all of his R-A541 'cousins' were still in Munster.

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The Late Iron Age remains CT14 found at Claristown in County Meath are indeed intriguing and I take your point about a possible relationship with Tara 25 km away. As for your observation that this man was so far from his Munster homeland, can I suggest that this was no further than the Uí Liatháin colonies in South Wales? These coastal people were clearly at home on the water and Claristown is only 3 km from the Irish Sea.

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As for the relationship between the Uí Liatháin and the Déise, Elizabeth has already pointed out the very different genetic backgrounds of these two groups. Although the Déisi may indeed have been a genetically mixed group, certain haplotypes / SNP markers and surnames are associated with them. Elizabeth has already pointed out R-CTS1751. The 'Princes' of the Déisi were notably the Uí Faolain (Phelans and Whelans) and the Uí Bric (O'Bric, Brick). Interestingly, there are a significant number of Welsh surnames amongst the men who are CTS1751+. I can't find any Y DNA results for Bric as such but they may match Whalen.? And, seriously confusing for me, there are a significant number of men with the surnames Brazil / Brazile / Braswell / Bracewell who are also CTS1751+. Living times past in west Waterford next to other R-A151+ Brazils in east Cork!

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One source that you only referenced very briefly Neil is Eoin O'Neill's 'The Native Place of St. Patrick' Proceedings of the Royal Irish Academy: Archaeology, Culture, History, Literature Vol. 37 (1924 - 1927), pp. 118-140. This article discusses in detail the Irish colonies in Wales and the genealogies associated with them. I'll leave you to read this yourself but if I read it right, the initial colonies in Pembroke and in Gower / Kidwelly were led by the Uí Liatháin but that the Pembroke / Dyfedd colony became dominated by the Déisi whilst the Uí Liatháin remained in Gower / Kidwelly until they were later pushed inland to Brycheiniog (Brecon) by the 'Sons of Cunedda'. O'Neill matches Brachán, the eponymous founder of the Brycheiniog dynasty, with MacBrocc, son of Eochu Liatháin.

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The correspondence beween the distribution of Ogam stones and Brycheiniog is striking!

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Neil, you will also notice that Brycheiniog borders Powys and was subsequently incorporated into the Kingdom of Powys.

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Incidentally, and I realise it is only one opinion among many, the late Professor Kenneth Jackson seems to shared David Stifter's view about Ogam being the creation of a single individual, but was himself of the view that this happened in one of the Irish colonies in Britain.

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Another idea that O'Neill discusses is the broc / badger theme. Despite the association between Welsh Ogam stones and the Uí Liatháin, none of the inscriptions seem to include any name resembling Liatháin. On the other hand, however, there are numerous references to BROC in various forms. Even though I don't speak Irish myself, I understand that the Irish word broc can also connote grey akin to liath? Even to this day people with mixed dark and grey hair can be nicknamed 'Badger'!

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O'Neill also discusses the Attacotti. Who these people were and how they related to the Scotti remains problematic. They were clearly distinguished from the Scotti and their name has been the subject of much speculation. Especially since they are the only Irish tribal group incorporated as a group into the Roman Army. Neil, your reference to a possibly fourth century sarcophagus in Salona (now Solin) on the Croatian coast north of Dubrovnik with an inscription interpreted as that of a soldier 'e numero Ata[cottorum]' is news to me but clearly lines up with references to Irish and British troops in the army of Magnus Maximus who usurped Gratian to become the Emperor of the Western Empire. Who was defeated by the Emperor of the Eastern Empire, Theodosius I, at the Battle of Poetovio also known as the Battle of Save (near Siscia in modern Croatia) in 388. Maximus was later captured and executed at Aquileia in north eastern Italy. Whether the Attacotti were Déisi or Uí Liatháin remains to be determined - we need to keep an eye out for R-A151+ or R-CTS1751+ men from the Balkan peninsula!

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Now for a further discussion about the introduction and development of Christianity in Britain and Ireland ?.

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We know that Palladius landed in Ireland at Arklow in 431 AD to minister to the Scotti believing in Christ. We should also note that previously, as a deacon, he persuaded Pope Celestine I (AD 422-32) to send Germanus, Bishop of Auxerre, to stamp out the Pelagian Heresy in Britain. So Palladius was a conservative churchman obedient to Rome.

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Pelagius (floruit AD 390-418) on the other hand was not. Pelagius was ostensibly a Celtic Briton though Jerome thought that he was Irish, suggesting that he was "stuffed with Irish porridge" (Scotorum pultibus praegravatus). He was also highly educated, spoke and wrote Latin and Greek with great fluency, and was well versed in theology. His name has traditionally been understood as a Graecized form (from 辫é濒补驳辞蝉, "sea") of the Welsh name Morgan ("sea-born"), or another Celtic equivalent. He was an ascetic opponent of Augustine of Hippo. Was Pelagius a Uí Liatháin or Déisi colonist in south Wales? Did he transmit a more ascetic form of Christianity to southern Ireland (perhaps with Eastern Mediterranean? eremetic influences, anticipating the Culdees 300 years later)? Which brought Palladius to Ireland to stamp out? Certainly it suggests that Irish colonists living in Wales could have been well plugged into the Empire and its social and cultural influences.

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John.

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On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 2:42 AM O'Brien, Neil <neil.obrien@...> wrote:

Hi Elizabeth,

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I accept your point fully. The text is written in the context of Ui Liathain and Deisi Muman settlement in Wales, who obviously do not have the same eponymous ancestry, the Deisi being of the seed of Fiachrach Suighe, though likely from the genealogies in origin a federation of 50 different base tuath in vassalage (aithechthúath) to the Dal Fiachrach Suighe. The Ui Liathain descend from Dáire Cerbba, who is of uncertain origin, sometimes suggested as originating in Brega in modern Co. Meath.

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Wherein lies the nucleus of the elites of the Welsh colony is anyone’s guess, though in the framing of the Expulsion of the Deisi, the old version of the origin myth is very much interpolated with Welsh genealogies in the context of Eochaid Almuir as one of the 4 sons of Art Corb, who led the settlement in Wales. As ? Cathasaigh points out, this narrative is absent from the later versions of the text. This is perhaps indicative that the ruling House of Dyfed is to be found in descent from a tribe of the Deisi Muman. Nevertheless, the presence of Lugaid mac Lóegairi, grandson of Niall of the Nine Hostages, in Wales in the late 480s, as suggested by Coplestone-Crow might suggest the pre-eminence of the Ui Liathain amongst the colonies elites, given his alleged blood connection to the Ui Liathain.

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I don’t think I’ve adequately separated out the Ui Liathain and Deisi Muman out in the context of the Welsh colony and the two have perhaps become conflated in my own narrative and confusion, which has rather spoiled the effect. It would perhaps have been better to concentrate on the Ui Liathain in particular!

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Nevertheless, I think I would stand over a number of the points made as being signposts for future consideration:-

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• The Ui Liathain and Deisi Muman formed the ancestral core of the settlers who left southeast Munster for Wales in the early 4^th century – this is an undoubted fact
• I will put my comments in relation to CT14 at Claristown, Co. Meath into deep freeze, but note the curiosity of finding a A151+ sample buried so far from its Munster homeland, dating possible to the early 5^th Century, and also the presence of modern A151+ ?DNA found deep into south east Munster. It is possible that A151+ might be one of the aithechthúath tribes of the Deisi, or was in close alliance with them. I don’t think John would agree, but it is another possible avenue of exploration should the Ui Laithain connection ‘come a cropper’
• 颁罢厂4466…/A151+ is a haplotype may be associated with the settlement in Dyfed, particularly 础151/…贵罢11485&驳迟;贵罢74196, which seems to have pushed up into north Wales for reasons that aren’t understood
• The Ui Liathain of East cork, or at least some branches of this polity, may possibly be A151+. I also note the relative scarcity of Uí Meic Caille septs from the various DNA projects
• The A151+ were, or became, a coastal people - possibly with a core presence in the littoral of south-east Munster, or along the river basins of SE Munster, stretching from east Cork to west Waterford. I would most certainly stand over this and note the central importance of Waterford as one of the 3 main centres of Viking Ireland (Waterford, Limerick and Dublin), and its close relationship to Dublin. It’s noteworthy that Ireland has 4 major Viking settlements along its from south coast, from Cork, Youghal, Waterford to Wexford. This perhaps explains the large degree of interaction between A151+ and the Viking world in the Irish sea. The prevalence of A151+ in the Viking world in Ireland and beyond perhaps suggests enslavement or military alliance, or indeed both.

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I look forward to further communication.

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Best,

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N

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Neill, John, All,

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I am yet to read through all the messages thoroughly, but am I to gather that the discussion is meant to suggest that the move of the Ui Liathain and Deisi to Wales is the source of CTS4466 in Wales, rather than the subclade originating there?

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I know TMRCA/formation dates are fluid, but I still contend that assuming carbon dating is more reliable than statistical analysis of DNA mutations, then based on the dates from Cassidy’s paper, the haplogroups overall are older than is currently being estimated.? Could the two FGC11134 gents in Fermanagh and Sligo, separated by over 300 years, be the very first men of that mutation?? How likely/coincidental could that be??

?

And, as I’ve point out, we don’t know if those samples were or could be tested for further downstream mutations.? Some sample were probably better quality than others and/or some were tested more deeply. The A151 sample is considerably younger, hence probably of better quality.? I can’t help but wonder that if more funds had been available for this project, would deeper testing have been done.? And on from that, if more funds were made available, would they do more.? I certainly would contribute to have the three samples of interest to us be tested more deeply.

?

John, with your interactions with Lara, do you think there is any possibility that providing funding would produce more testing?

?

Elizabeth

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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Elizabeth
Sent: 15 September 2021 22:38
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] Y-DNA Warehouse Tree Tech Demo

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Hello, Neill.

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This is indeed a significantly long missive, which I will read through, though it may take a while…