At the time of these burials, slavery was not a big thing in Ireland. At least until the later arrival of the Vikings. As the emirate of Cordoba was the most wealthy province in Europe, then I suspect that B12 was a merchant. Just speculation, maybe he died at sea and was placed in a barrel until he could be buried on land. ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of john brazil
Sent: Sunday, 26 September 2021 5:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] U¨ª Liath¨¢in, D¨¦isi, Ogam, Christianity and Britain (particularly Wales)? I have just started to read Crawford Gribben's very recently published (September 2021) 'Rise and Fall of Christian Ireland'. Inter alia he mentions the finding of remains of an individual near Bettystown who arrived in Ireland in the early Christian period from southern Portugal or north Africa as a slave or prisoner of war. Southern Portugal or North Africa were possibly beyond the reach of marauding A151s then but Romans in Britain originally from southern parts of the Empire clearly were not! And he references a website that bears further investigation - ? Bettystown is less than 5 miles from Claristown (where our Late Iron Age A151+ CT14 was buried). The particular excavation details are Bettystown (Brookside) Excavation No.1977-79:0057 which includes the following;? 'This cemetery is located on a ridge overlooking the Irish Sea, which has produced evidence for burial in the Bronze Age, Iron Age (see Bettystown (Anchorage), and Early Medieval period. The EM burials at the site span the period fourth/seventh centuries AD. Strontium and oxygen isotope analysis undertaken by Dr Jacqueline Cahill Wilson suggests that many of the burials represent newcomers to the area . This includes crouched burials B12 (male) who originated in North Africa. This burial was very unusual in that it appears to have been crushed into its crouched position (E.Kelly, pers com). The location of the cemetery, ie overlooking the sea may reflect the fact that the majority of the burials are of people from overseas. The nearby cemetery at The Anchorage has produced dates similar to this cemetery. Full publication of the excavation is awaited. A Bronze Age cist was also located in the area'. Chasing this up further led me to this page - Immigrant burials in Late Iron Age Meath - This article asks 'How these two men came to live and die in coastal Meath remains uncertain, although it?is possible that they were involved in seaborne trade. During the Later Iron Age and Earlier Medieval period, the Irish Sea coast, especially around Dublin and Meath, appears to have been an important focus for international trade. There is a concentration of imported material in this region and local coastal sites, such as a Drumanagh in north Co. Dublin and possibly Bettystown, may have acted as trading hubs.' I have ordered 'Late Iron Age and ¡®Roman¡¯ Ireland' from Wordwell Books to find out more! It also includes a chapter on 'Investigating mobility and migration in the Later Iron Age' which would seem to be particularly relevant and interesting. Definitely puts our A-151+ U¨ª Liath¨¢in coastal and sea-going kindred in the frame. Traders or slavers? Whatever the market required? ? Hello, Neil. ? A bit late in responding to your and John¡¯s various notes.? First, to answer your earlier question, the link to the Curran results is .? ? I have made some comments in red below to specific points you¡¯ve made.? A few other things: ? Based on the research in our Munster Irish project, we have these surnames historically associated with the Deisi:? O'Bric, a sept of ? Donnchadha, O'Flannag¨¢in, O'Foghladha, O'Cein, O'Mearadhaigh, ? N¨¦ill, O'Faelain.? Are you aware of any others?? None of the listed surnames feature in CTS4466 except a few Whalen outliers (not A151) none of whom match each other and almost surely attained their surname through means other than Deisi origins.? I gather you have come to agree that A151 is not Deisi. ? In the Topographical Poems of John O'Dubhagain (d 1372) and Giolla Na Naomh O'Huidhrin (d 1420), the O'Conghaile/O¡¯Connells are listed as Corca Dhuibhne, which is consistent with their territory (which is the heartland of the Ogham stones).? I might add that Daniel O¡¯Connell was himself not what you would consider a modest man.? His carriage is preserved at Derrynane, and it is one of the most opulent displays I have ever seen ¨C far outstripping the current English royal carriages in use.? Fabricating an adequate genealogy for himself would be a small trifle to accomplish. ? In the Munster Irish project, about half of the O¡¯Connells are from Kerry, the others Cork/Tipp/Waterford or unknown origins beyond Ireland.? All under B42 > A7659.? For the A7654 Kerry O¡¯Connells to have not found a further downstream branch suggests that they are not closely enough related to do so, which also suggests that their overall population is greater than the Cork/Tipp/Waterford gents. ? Since the O¡¯Connells are so consistently found under branches of B42, I would interpret that to mean that the Kerry O¡¯Connells are the source of the others in Cork/Tipp/Waterford rather than the other way round, which would mean that this branch of A151 migrated west early on.? To be considered Corca Dhuibhne would suggest quite early on.? But Derrynane is right on the coast, so a jaunt up the coast from the east side would be a simple journey, and the inviting environs of Kerry could have been enough to decide to settle there. ? There is a Jones (most recent origins two centuries back in London) in B42 > A7659 as well, which suggests that one of the cousins sailed east instead and settled in Wales early enough to assume the Jones surname, eventually ending up on the east coast of England.? I would think to consider him as and ¡®English¡¯ Jones would miss the obvious. ? All fascinating¡ ? Elizabeth ? ? ? ? Hi John, ? Thanks for this. I don¡¯t disagree with you at all ¨C I think you¡¯re on the right track and will celebrate when you are proved correct ¨C you make a good case. ?I doubt if we can or will be able to actually ¡®prove¡¯ much of our deliberations.? While DNA testing does provide ¡®facts¡¯, interpretating the data is just that ¨C subjective interpretation. ?There are undoubtedly 3 possible sources for invasion DNA in modern Welsh DNA from Ui Liathain; Deisi Muman and Laigin ( the latter seem to have been in concentration in north Wales?). There are, of course, a number of problems:- ? - A relative paucity for Irish DNA found in the modern population Welsh population that can be linked to the invasion due to a lack of kit samples. We¡¯ve made progress with the two Jones kits, but a hell of a long way to go. I¡¯d really like to see a yDNA match between the Jones¡¯ and the Trevors to confirm a connection to the House of Powys for A151 - there are gaps in the Jones¡¯ tale. This is a potential avenue for future exploration. It¡¯s possible that invasion DNA in Wales might be sparse. In contrast Dalriadic DNA in Scotland is plentiful.
- What significance is there to the west-east spread of Ogham stones, concentrating in the south west of Ireland? All historical scholarship agrees that there is an undoubted connection between the spread of the stones and Dyfed. What is this ¡®coastal culture¡¯ along the entire south coast of Ireland telling us?
- Again, I have concerns about the spread nature of A151 haplotypes. Undoubtedly 3 events in the medieval era might be linked to this, if A151 are an Ui Liathain subclade ?¨C the Viking invasion and the unsettled nature of Munster in the 11th and 12th Century and the 13th Century Norman invasion. It would seem that the Ui Liathain may have been greatly weakened by the Norsemen, and scattered by the McCarthys, and finally completely forced out by Barrys in the Cambro-Norman push into their territory. More Irish samplers are needed into various Ui Liathain related surnames to see if this scattering can be explained and whether modern Ui Liathain surnames will be A151 positive ¨C there¡¯s very little evidence emerging so far. As you say, this is a frustratingly slow process.
- The final thing that concerns me is the relatively small number of A151 haplotypes in the CTS4466 family discovered so far ¨C around 10%. ?A151 is not the only ¡®smaller¡¯ subclade ¨C several are even less populous.? At this point, I doubt that there would be a ¡®discovery¡¯ of many more.? For whatever combination of reasons, other subclades have produced a greater population.? We do know that the more successful subclades of CTS4466 are found in S1121 and Z21065, and have gradually come to be associated with a number of modern surname types which emerged from the older the Corca Laidhe and Corcu Duibne polities after surnames emerged in the 11th and 12th Century in Ireland. It¡¯s well known that, even at the twilight of Gaelic Ireland, in a system of succession based on near blood tanistry, a successful chieftain would be expected to produce a large Derbfhine, and for that reason the marriage bed in the elite lines was rarely monogamous, and chieftains liberally divorced and remarried ¨C in many cases for strategic reasons. It is, perhaps, for this reason, that S1121 is a particularly large haplotype. Arguably less successful lines might be more susceptible to bottleneck events and less able to use the marriage bed as a system for forming alliances. I¡¯m also a bit curious about why A151 has proved so susceptible to probable Viking interference ¨C common men are probably less likely to have been ransomed than elite lines. I take your point that breeding isn¡¯t necessarily a hallmark of success, but it is a factor all the same. ?This could be perceived to be a rather disparaging remark.? Viking interaction is not necessarily ¡®interference¡¯.? Being coastal almost certainly means more prone to travelling the waves.? While some ports were frequent sources of slave trade, merchant trade is just as likely.? And just as there were intrusions in Wales, so too could contact with the Scandinavian countries been common.
? So whilst wholeheartedly supporting your Ui Laithain theory, in the full hope that it eventually bears fruit, there are other mysteries and considerations that may also be at play. ? ? On balance I think your ideas are probably leading in the right direction and the problem is trying to get more samplers to test. A cheaper option, of course is to try and ascertain haplotypes from ySTRs, which isn¡¯t always as easy. In fact I¡¯ve tried, very unsuccessfully, to try and build a ySTR profile for A541>A151>FT11485? While there are some branches that have clear demarcating marker values, such as the 18 at DYS481 vs the overall modal of 22 amazingly consistent amongst the A212 subclade, on average, modals beyond some individual surname groups are not always apparent.? Nigel has done an amazing job of identifying those commonalities in his IT2 Phylogenetic Tree, but he generally won¡¯t even include 67 marker haplotypes in his calculations. ? Certainly the FT74196 branch line definitely has a stable ySTR pattern, and on the whole a combination (in whole or in part) of the following STRs robustly points to kits being A541>A151>FT11485>FT74196 positive, viz.:- ? DYS439 = 11 or 12 (CTS4466 marker reverts to Atlantic modal occasionally) | DYS458 = 18 | DYS437 = 14 | DYS537 = 11 | DYS638 = 12 | DYS452 = 31 | DYS525 = 11 | DYS504 = 17 |
? Your branch, A541>A151>FT11485>A714 is a far more tricky prospect, but the following might be generally observed (the sibling branches also have definitely downstream affinities, but not useful to expound here):- ? R-A714>¡./R-BY111005 (has a nice broad surname mix):- ? - All branch lines consistently have marker value 15 DYS19
- 17 at DYS458
- 15 at DYS607
- 16 at DYS557
? R-A714> A715¡./ R-FT12788 (again nice broad surname mix):- ? - All branch lines consistently have marker value 25 at DYS635
- 17 at DYS458
- 15 at DYS607
- 16 at DYS557
? R-A714> A715¡./R-BY187664 (a relatively large number of kits, but all come from the same stable - surname Hill):- ? - All branch lines consistently have marker value 25 at DYS390
- All branch lines consistently have marker value 16 at DYS607
- All branch lines consistently have marker value 17 at DYS570
- All branch lines consistently have marker value 12 at DYS442
- 17 at DYS458
- 15 at DYS607
- 16 at DYS557
? R-A714>A715¡.R-FGC23796 (surnames Davison and Thrasher) ? - There is no unique haplotype marker that distinguishes it very much from others in the CTS4466 haplogroup, except the markers below, but these are very occasionally seen in combination in other haplotypes
- 17 at DYS458
- 15 at DYS607
- 16 at DYS557
? I¡¯m afraid I haven¡¯t the energy to analyse the other A151 types as yet. However the markers identified above might prove a cheaper way of enticing people to test, with perhaps individual snip testing or snip pack.? The current SNP Pack for CTS4466 is hardly used anymore.? With the great increase in branching, the limited number of SNPs tested in it is hardly worth the cost.? The Big Y is now so much more affordable, it is the only real choice now.? Though if James is right, a Full Genome at an reasonable price might not be too many years away. ? Best, ? Neil ? ? ? ? ? EXTERNAL EMAIL: This email originated from outside of NUI Galway. Do not open attachments or click on links in the message unless you recognise the sender's email address and believe the content is safe.
R?OMHPHOST SEACHTRACH: Th¨¢inig an r¨ªomhphost seo as ¨¢it ¨¦igin taobh amuigh de O? Gaillimh. N¨¢ clice¨¢il ar naisc agus n¨¢ hoscail ceangalt¨¢in mura n-aithn¨ªonn t¨² seoladh r¨ªomhphoist an tseolt¨®ra agus mura gcreideann t¨² go bhfuil an t-¨¢bhar s¨¢bh¨¢ilte. ? I think we continue to have slightly different perspectives on the Irish colonists in south Wales and their origins back in Munster. According to Eoin MacNeill the U¨ª Liatha¨ªn led the colonisation of south Wales, accompanied by D¨¦isi and Laigin. He notes that the D¨¦isi, 'after they were expelled? from Meath by Cormac in the latter part of the third century', 'made a prolonged sojourn in Leinster before the main branch of them settled in south east Munster'. Leinster before the Norse and the Anglo-Normans probably included the present day counties of Dublin (south of the Tolka), Kildare, Wicklow, Carlow and Wexford. He also says this settlement, under Oingus (sic), King of Cashel, 'should have taken about the middle of the fifth century.' Nigel (McCarthy) has previously speculated that the U¨ª Liath¨¢in had migrated from county Limerick to east county Cork though when this might have happened is not known but presumably after A-541 formed. And, potentially, before the D¨¦isi subsequently became their immediate neighbours? Which then begs the question why this southeastern corner of Munster was 'available' for migrations and settlements. Was this area hit particularly hard by depopulation following disease? An idea we have already discussed in terms of the 'Late Iron Age Lull' identified from pollen analysis and dendrochronology. MacNeill goes on to say that, according to Irish tradition, the rulers of the colonists in Dyfed (now Pembroke) were of the dynastic line of the D¨¦isi, but contends (quoting Nennius) that the colonists further east in Gwyr / Gower and Kidweli / Kidwelly were U¨ª Liath¨¢in. MacNeill, again quoting Nennius, then says that the U¨ª Liath¨¢in were displaced from Gower and Kidwelly on the coast by the sons of Cunedda in the mid fifth century to more mountainous territory inland in Brycheiniog / Breconshire, a Welsh Kingdom named for one of their line, and subsequently incorporated into the Kingdom of Powys.Whilst the D¨¦isi continued to hold sway in Dyfed in Nennius' time (the ninth century). Cunedda and his line had already displaced Irish colonists in Llyn and Gwynedd (both names of Irish origin apparently). These colonists being of Laigin origin and notably not as fond of Ogam Stones as the Irish colonies in the south. Unfortunately a lot of archaeological remains, including burials, were unscientifically excavated in the Victorian period and the bones since lost ?. As for the A151+ O'Connells and the U¨ª Fidgenti, I think we may need to wait for Gerry O'Connell to complete his studies. But, Neil, I think I have to argue your speculation that A-151 may not have been a (then) aristocratic line and potentially septless? I think 'prospering' and being 'aristocratic' have gone hand in hand down the millennia particularly as regards Y chromosomes. Each of the various SNPs mutated in a single man and the survival to this day of branches that can be dated so far back suggests to me that particular men's sons thrived and multiplied for so many of them to survive to the present day. Clearly, on the other hand, a lot didn't. Witness Genghis Khan (but not Niall of the Nine Hostages - I? wouldn't argue with Cathy Swift). I agree with you that we need to test more men whose surnames may be associated? with the U¨ª Liath¨¢in. But our problem is that many of these are multigenetic, occurring in differing lineages and locations. For example Curran. This map is from John Grnham's Surname site. Hayes, Ring, and Gleeson are names associated with the U¨ª Liath¨¢in but also found in other, different, lines around Ireland. Kiely (Ui Meic Caille?) might be a surname to look at more closely also perhaps? I know Dr Paul MacCotter warns not to extrapolate too far with surnames and the names of territories and septs but if we don't look we won't find. And I remain frustrated that I haven't been able to persuade a 'Brazil' originally from Kilfinane, Ballylanders or Kilmallock in east Limerick to test. I suspect they would also be of some interest! Hi Elizabeth, ? Thanks so much for this. ? To answer your earlier query first, given that the Jones¡¯ kits match to A541>¡.A151, the presumption is that A151 are descendants either of Deisi or Ui Liathain settlers from Munster found in modern Welsh DNA, ie in the Jones¡¯ kits ¨C both polities are known to have settled in Wales at this time. It would be a bit radical to suggest that A541 formed outside of Munster, regardless of whether upstream snips immediately below, or immediately above CTS4466, formed in Wales. That¡¯s probably a different question - I think we can agree that kits downstream of A541 have a Munster origin and the modern Jones¡¯ kits seem to be an echo of the early eastward migration from Munster to Wales in the 5th Century. ? Given the interesting (purported) connection of the two Jones¡¯ kits to the House of Powys, the presumption is that they may descend from the Dyfed settlement period around 450AD with a downstream path A541>A151>FT11485>FT74196. Given that I am FT74196 myself, with a continuous ancestry in Cork (albeit on the western side of the city), it may be argued that my ancestral branch is a ¡®stay at home¡¯ branch, and FT74196>BY21620 settled in Dyfed and BY21620 formed there. ? The argument therefore is whether FT74196 is a characteristic of a migrating branch of the Ui Liathain, or whether they were Deisi federates, given that the genealogical tracts indicate genetic diversity within the Deisi Muman. ? On balance, given the Derrynane O¡¯Connell branch match to A151, it is possible that A151 are Ui Liathain and not Deisi in origin. Certainly the Derrynane O¡¯Connells list a descent from Daire Cearba, which should establish a connection to the U¨ª Chonaill Gabra and this possibly indicates a Ui Fidgenti origin, which is what one might expect. However the DNA evidence does not seem to point in this direction. As such it may well be that the O¡¯Connells migrated West from east Cork to Kerry at some point in the medieval period, and have no connection to the ?U¨ª Chonaill Gabra. This question is discussed on page 32 of Nigel¡¯s article here (PHYLOGENETIC ALIGNMENTS WITH GENEALOGIES OF DESCENT FROM AILILL
?LOM). ? Of course the pedigree of the Derrynane family dates from Daniel Charles O'Connell, who was ennobled by Louis XVI. An audience with the King, and the ability to present at the French Court required nobles to prove that they were members of the noblesse d'¨¦±è¨¦±ð, and as such had a pedigree that dated back to the early middle ages. As mentioned before, the Derrynane O¡¯Connells only have a verified pedigree back to the 15th Century, which may have required a bit of creative fixing to secure their place at the French court. Therefore the patent presented by Daniel Charles O¡¯Connell may be open to question. ? Discussing this issue with John, he has amassed good evidence to suggest that his own A151 line, found in modern times in Wexford, had an origin in East Cork ¨C this might indicate a eastward travel for his particular branch from an east Cork nucleus. This might reduce the possibility that A151 is a Deisi federate line. ? It is known that the Ui Liathain disintegrated as a polity in the medieval period, and many pushed west as they (locally) backed the wrong horse in the McCarthy-O¡¯Brien feud. As such there is promising evidence that A151 may find it¡¯s home in the splintered nucleus of a common Ui Liathain ancestry, and on balance that is perhaps the more obvious ancestral origin for the Welsh Jones, rather than a descent from Deisi federates. ? However I wouldn¡¯t rule out the ancestral core of A151 being found in aithechtuatha mercenaries in federation with the Deisi Muman. All historians agree that the Dyfed settlement has a clear connection with the spread of Ogham stones in south Munster, and the core of this spread is not concentrated to East Cork. Interestingly the core is actually found in the Iveragh peninsula, where one finds the O¡¯Connells of Derrynane ¨C what this means is impossible to ascertain. ? ? Also the distribution of A151 subclades during the Viking era does suggest a connection with the city of Waterford, which was the main Norse settlement in the south. As such the evidence for A151 is too widespread and scattered to locate an A151 centre in just east Cork ¨C as yet.? As I mentioned before, not all modern lines can possibly descend from the main chiefly lines of Ireland. It is entirely possible that A151 are effectively a ¡®septless¡¯ line, with no core in any surname and no loyalty to any single polity. The scattering may suggest that this was a line that prospered not through an aristocratic origin, but rather through the sweat of their own brow and putting themselves up for hire. ? No conclusion is possible without more DNA evidence, which in time might put the splintered Ui Liathain yDNA profile back together and indeed establish East Cork as the nucleus of A151. If so, then we can certainly begin to look at an Ui Liathain origin. ? In this regard I haven¡¯t been able to find kit B508479. Could you send me a link so I can look at his stirs? We are proposing to test another Curran as well, as sources appear to indicate that the aristocratic core of the U¨ª Meic Caille may be found in this surname. If there is a match to A151, this may an interesting road to travel. ? Best, ? Neil ? ? ? ? ? EXTERNAL EMAIL: This email originated from outside of NUI Galway. Do not open attachments or click on links in the message unless you recognise the sender's email address and believe the content is safe.
R?OMHPHOST SEACHTRACH: Th¨¢inig an r¨ªomhphost seo as ¨¢it ¨¦igin taobh amuigh de O? Gaillimh. N¨¢ clice¨¢il ar naisc agus n¨¢ hoscail ceangalt¨¢in mura n-aithn¨ªonn t¨² seoladh r¨ªomhphoist an tseolt¨®ra agus mura gcreideann t¨² go bhfuil an t-¨¢bhar s¨¢bh¨¢ilte. ? I¡¯m back again, having read through much of Neill¡¯s message by now. ? Neill, one point re U¨ª Meic Caille (Ui Corrain) / Curran.? There is a small surname project (158, and rather few Y-DNA results) and there is one gent, B508479, who is quite clearly CTS4466.? His haplotype has a few off-modal marker values, which makes it difficult, for me at least, to suggest to which subclade he might belong.? And he shows the US as his Country, so that doesn¡¯t offer us much. ? I see you repeat your 7 points from the beginning of your message again at the end.? If you accept that the Deisi were in no way related genetically/CTS4466 to the U¨ª Liath¨¢in, does that alter any of your suppositions? ? I intend to ruminate a bit more over the whole of the message and will return with any useful thoughts. ? Thanks again for your efforts.? Elizabeth ? ? I have taken the liberty of editing the subject line? again - to distinguish this thread from James's. No, I don't think anyone is suggesting that the move of the U¨ª Liath¨¢in and the D¨¦isi to Wales and Cornwall in the 3rd / 4th century AD represents the source of all CTS4466 in Wales though it does warrant an examination of other CTS4466 subclades for Welsh-looking surnames and, indeed, those projects that might be associated with the D¨¦isi. Unfortunately many of these latter have been a lot less active than our project and are focused on surnames rather than haplotypes. I agree with you that the tendency is for these mutations to be older than we have thought previously. I will contact Lara to see what scope there might be to analyse our three samples in more detail. ? On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 11:41 AM Elizabeth <elizabeth@...> wrote: Neill, John, All, ? I am yet to read through all the messages thoroughly, but am I to gather that the discussion is meant to suggest that the move of the Ui Liathain and Deisi to Wales is the source of CTS4466 in Wales, rather than the subclade originating there? ? I know TMRCA/formation dates are fluid, but I still contend that assuming carbon dating is more reliable than statistical analysis of DNA mutations, then based on the dates from Cassidy¡¯s paper, the haplogroups overall are older than is currently being estimated.? Could the two FGC11134 gents in Fermanagh and Sligo, separated by over 300 years, be the very first men of that mutation?? How likely/coincidental could that be?? ? And, as I¡¯ve point out, we don¡¯t know if those samples were or could be tested for further downstream mutations.? Some sample were probably better quality than others and/or some were tested more deeply. The A151 sample is considerably younger, hence probably of better quality.? I can¡¯t help but wonder that if more funds had been available for this project, would deeper testing have been done.? And on from that, if more funds were made available, would they do more.? I certainly would contribute to have the three samples of interest to us be tested more deeply. ? John, with your interactions with Lara, do you think there is any possibility that providing funding would produce more testing? ? Elizabeth ? ? ? Hello, Neill. ? This is indeed a significantly long missive, which I will read through, though it may take a while¡
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