Yes Neil,
I accept that matching modern surnames to septs of the U¨ª Liath¨¢n is a bit of a challenge - which, hopefully, we will be able to address further together shortly.
But we have some hints from the map below from Liam ? Buachalla's Map of the U¨ª Liath¨¢in septlands just before they were taken over by the Barrys - ironic the Barrys were, inter alia, from Gower - what goes around comes around? Even 700 years later?
Some modern surnames may be associated with places / polities identified in the map. For my part Cenel Breasail -> (O') Breasail / Brazil, U¨ª Glash¨ªn -> Cork Gleeson (not the north Tipperary lineage), Cenel nAedha -> Hayes (not a lot of use in Munster or further afield in Ireland), U¨ª Tassaig -> Tracey?, U¨ª MacCaille -> Kiely / Keily?
But there are other surnames that may be associated with the U¨ª Liath¨¢n that we need to recruit to test. Ring certainly (not those from Mayo though, they are a separate line), Curran (again those with an east Cork connection, there are unrelated Currans from elsewhere). Dr Paul MacCotter suggests that modern Lehanes are originally from West Cork, that Lyons are not related, and that Woulfes (MacTire) may or may not be related.
Paul suggests other surnames that might be worth considering for testing as potentially U¨ª Liath¨¢in - notably Kerins. That said, he thought that the (Mc)Brides were Anglo Norman, so we are all learning.
Yes, A151+ are a bit scattered but A151+> A714+ considerably less so, at least in Ireland. The surnames identified so far are Brazil etc (though their A715+ SNP mutation seems to have occurred since they left east Cork), Shinnick / Fox (Ballycattoo / Fermoy and south Tipperary), Aghada (McBride), O'Neill (Kilkenny) and Emly (Mulloy / O Mulloy).
I have also attached a history of the area, mainly post Invasion, written by Paul.
All the best,
John.
Dear John,
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Thank you for your very detailed response, much appreciated indeed.
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I must say I do like your theory for A151+ finding a core within the Ui Liathain and it¡¯s a good working theory. The problem with it is a near total absence modern of DNA from Currans and Lyons etc,
and where it does exist it is not a fit. It seems clear that the aristocratic core of the Ui Liathain might be found in the U¨ª Meic Caille branch septs of West Cork and Kerry, given their medieval connection to the heartland of Cloyne - the centre of the cult
of Saint Colm¨¢n. The U¨ª Meic Caille seem to have been pushed out by the McCarthys in the 12th century at the tail end of O¡¯Brien McCarthy feud. Therefore there is a long way to go yet, but this is perhaps a signpost of where one might go to look
if one wants to find modern DNA in the context of ancient Ui Liathain DNA.
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As already mentioned, the matching of O¡¯Connell to A151+ is interesting in the context of their (alleged) common ancestry from
D¨¢ire Cerbba. However it seems clear that there a mismatch to the O¡¯Donovans, and other Ui Fidgenti septs, which is a problem ¨C you have noted this yourself.
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I also accept your point in relation to the elite line of the Deisi Muman showing good evidence for a match to R-CTS1751. Elizabeth also pointed this out last night and it jumps out of the screen in the surname match to Whelan, Phelan etc.
under this subclade. Its clear that the elite line of the Deisi is probably to be found here, but it must be remembered that not man alive in Ireland today is descended from a chiefly line.
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There is an alternative explanation for A151+ which I must say I like equally well to your theory in regard to an ancestral core in the Ui Liathain, and that is that A151+ were base vassals and will therefore not be found in concentration
in any substantial medieval sept, except of course the O¡¯Connells. Despite the stated ancestry of the Derrynane line, it is possible that they are a sept that rose in Corcu Duibne region, but are clearly not related to the O¡¯Sheas, who were the paramount line
of the Corcu Duibne, if that line is indeed R-BY402. Perhaps I am not looking in the right place, but I haven¡¯t been able to any reliable that would establish a relationship between the Kerry O¡¯Connells and the U¨ª Chonaill Gabra, other than the pretensions
of the family itself.
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Indeed I¡¯m just thumbing through Huish¡¯s biography of Daniel O¡¯Connell and it makes a few interesting points. Firstly it says that the ancestry of the Ui Connells of Derrynane can only be verified back to the commencement of the 15th
Century, where they were Stewarts of the McCarthy castle of Ballycarbery in Cahersiveen. Huish notes that prior to the 15th century ¡®few Irish families¡¯ can verify their ancestry ¡®by those legal documents, by which genealogy is best authenticated¡¯.
However he does claim, on behalf of the Liberator, that ¡®it would appear¡¯ that the ancestral head of the family was the chief of Upper and Lower Conelloe in Co. Limerick.
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During the reign of Elizabeth I, Richard O¡¯Connell was the head of the Kerry family and was confirmed in his estates by surrender and regrant. In 1586 his eldest son Morgan was High Sherriff of Kerry and in the interim the family was transported
to Clare during the Cromwellian invasion. Morgan¡¯s great-grandson, Daniel of Aghagabhar, was the first to locate the family near Waterville, but they also remained in the Cahersiveen area and Daniel O¡¯Connell himself was born in the vicinity of the town.
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As such, there is a question mark whether the O¡¯Connells ancestry is connected to U¨ª Chonaill Gabra, and is a branch line in descent from D¨¢ire Cerbba, or whether its ancestry is found in Corcu Duibne as vassals of the S¨¦aghdha.
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As such, it is not unreasonable to present a case that A151
might be one of the aithechth¨²ath tribes of the Deisi. As ? Cathasaigh points out, the Deisi were allied to the seed of
Fiachrach Suighe, but not in descent from his line. The genealogies make clear that there was a federation of 50 different base tuath in vassalage (aithechth¨²ath)
to the Dal Fiachrach
Suighe amongst the Deisi Muman. This would seem to indicate that there is a lot of genetic diversity to be found in the Deisi Mumam, and possibly explains why you¡¯re finding Brazils in Wexford with very diverse DNA.
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This is a point that I think I did not make sufficiently well in my text below. My proposal is that A151
may be found in the Ui Liathain, but equally it may be a base vassal haplotype as a federate of the Deisi Muman. I don¡¯t think I have separated this point out at all successfully, but I¡¯m clarifying now. In the context of Wales, both theories are of
interest.
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A151+ is quite a scattered subclade in modern Munster and South Leinster, and I might point out that this scattering (albeit from a base of very small DNA evidence) very much seems to follow the path of Ogham stones, which in their greatest
concentration are to be found in Corcu Duibne, spreading out to south Wales. As such, it is entirely possible that the ancestors of A151 are
aithechth¨²ath, and will not therefore be found in concentration in any particular Sept (except the O¡¯Connells of course), or in any particular geographic location, but spread wide across the
south east coast.
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As such it is possible that A151+ were a base aithechth¨²ath people living along the south coast. However labouring vassals are unlikely to have achieved literacy. A possible alternative is that they were mercenaries, which would very much
put them in the context of guns, or rather spears, for hire in the Roman military apparatus, and contact with the Roman world might have resulted in literacy spreading across southern Ireland and the creation of monuments to fallen brothers in the context
of Ogham stones stretching from Corcu Duibne to south Wales. It also might follow that these aithechth¨²ath were the Attacotti, and A151 are just one of many clades in the Deisi federation.
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Though there is , of course, a great gap in time from the age of Late Antiquity to the early middle ages, and the era of the Norse in Ireland. However arguably one might also ascertain a similar trend ¨C warriors for hire, or men taken by
force into slavery from along the south coast, with a possible connection to Waterford city. Base men were less likely to be ransomed and freed, and more likely to offer their services to anyone who paid, with no loyalty to any regional polity.
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What do you think of this?
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Best,
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Neil
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Though for the sake of bandwidth I have cut the tail off this thread and, also, renamed the subject to match the content
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May I add some thoughts to this tour de force?
D¨¢ire Cerbba may well have been born in County Meath but all of his R-A541 'cousins' were still in Munster.
The Late Iron Age remains CT14 found at Claristown in County Meath are indeed intriguing and I take your point about a possible relationship with Tara 25 km away. As for your observation that this man was so far from his Munster homeland,
can I suggest that this was no further than the U¨ª Liath¨¢in colonies in South Wales? These coastal people were clearly at home on the water and Claristown is only 3 km from the Irish Sea.
As for the relationship between the U¨ª Liath¨¢in and the D¨¦ise, Elizabeth has already pointed out the very different genetic backgrounds of these two groups. Although the D¨¦isi may indeed have been a genetically mixed group, certain haplotypes
/ SNP markers and surnames are associated with them. Elizabeth has already pointed out R-CTS1751. The 'Princes' of the D¨¦isi were notably the U¨ª Faolain (Phelans and Whelans) and the U¨ª Bric (O'Bric, Brick). Interestingly,
there are a significant number of Welsh surnames amongst the men who are CTS1751+. I can't find any Y DNA results for Bric as such but they may match Whalen.? And, seriously confusing for me, there are a significant number of men with the surnames Brazil /
Brazile / Braswell / Bracewell who are also CTS1751+. Living times past in west Waterford next to other R-A151+ Brazils in east Cork!
One source that you only referenced very briefly Neil is Eoin O'Neill's 'The Native Place of St. Patrick'
Proceedings of the Royal Irish Academy: Archaeology, Culture, History, Literature Vol. 37 (1924 - 1927), pp. 118-140. This article discusses in detail the Irish colonies in Wales
and the genealogies associated with them. I'll leave you to read this yourself but if I read it right, the initial colonies in Pembroke and in Gower / Kidwelly were led by the U¨ª Liath¨¢in but that the Pembroke / Dyfedd colony became dominated by the D¨¦isi
whilst the U¨ª Liath¨¢in remained in Gower / Kidwelly until they were later pushed inland to Brycheiniog (Brecon) by the 'Sons of Cunedda'. O'Neill matches Brach¨¢n, the eponymous founder of the Brycheiniog dynasty, with MacBrocc, son of Eochu Liath¨¢in.
The correspondence beween the distribution of Ogam stones and Brycheiniog is striking!
Neil, you will also notice that Brycheiniog borders Powys and was subsequently incorporated into the Kingdom of Powys.
Incidentally, and I realise it is only one opinion among many, the late Professor Kenneth Jackson seems to shared David Stifter's view about Ogam being the creation of a single individual, but was himself of the view that this happened
in one of the Irish colonies in Britain.
Another idea that O'Neill discusses is the broc / badger theme. Despite the association between Welsh Ogam stones and the U¨ª Liath¨¢in, none of the inscriptions seem to include any name resembling Liath¨¢in. On the other hand, however, there
are numerous references to BROC in various forms. Even though I don't speak Irish myself, I understand that the Irish word broc can also connote grey akin to liath? Even to this day people with mixed dark and grey hair can be nicknamed 'Badger'!
O'Neill also discusses the Attacotti. Who these people were and how they related to the Scotti remains problematic. They were clearly distinguished from the Scotti and their name has been the subject of much speculation. Especially since
they are the only Irish tribal group incorporated as a group into the Roman Army. Neil, your reference to a possibly fourth century sarcophagus in Salona (now Solin) on the Croatian coast north of Dubrovnik with an inscription interpreted
as that of a soldier 'e numero Ata[cottorum]' is news to me but clearly lines up with references to Irish and British troops in the army of Magnus Maximus who usurped Gratian to become the Emperor of the Western Empire. Who was defeated by the Emperor of the
Eastern Empire, Theodosius I, at the Battle of Poetovio also known as the Battle of Save (near Siscia in modern Croatia) in 388. Maximus was later captured and executed at Aquileia in north eastern Italy. Whether the Attacotti were D¨¦isi or U¨ª Liath¨¢in remains
to be determined - we need to keep an eye out for R-A151+ or R-CTS1751+ men from the Balkan peninsula!
Now for a further discussion about the introduction and development of Christianity in Britain and Ireland
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We know that Palladius landed in Ireland
at Arklow in 431 AD to minister to the Scotti believing in Christ. We should also note that previously, as a deacon, he persuaded Pope Celestine I (AD 422-32) to send Germanus, Bishop of Auxerre, to stamp out the Pelagian Heresy in Britain. So
Palladius was a conservative churchman obedient to Rome.
Pelagius (floruit AD 390-418) on the other hand was not. Pelagius was ostensibly a Celtic Briton though Jerome thought that he was Irish, suggesting that he was "stuffed with Irish porridge" (Scotorum pultibus praegravatus). He was
also highly educated, spoke and wrote Latin and Greek with great fluency, and was well versed in theology. His name has traditionally been understood as a Graecized form (from
±è¨¦±ô²¹²µ´Ç²õ, "sea") of the Welsh name Morgan ("sea-born"), or another Celtic equivalent. He was an ascetic opponent of Augustine of Hippo. Was Pelagius a U¨ª Liath¨¢in or D¨¦isi colonist in south Wales? Did he transmit a more ascetic form of Christianity to
southern Ireland (perhaps with Eastern Mediterranean? eremetic influences, anticipating the Culdees 300 years later)? Which brought Palladius to Ireland to stamp out? Certainly it suggests that Irish colonists living in Wales could have been well plugged into
the Empire and its social and cultural influences.
Hi Elizabeth,
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I accept your point fully. The text is written in the context of Ui Liathain and Deisi Muman settlement in Wales, who obviously do not have the same eponymous ancestry, the Deisi
being of the seed of Fiachrach Suighe, though likely from the genealogies in origin a federation of 50 different base tuath in vassalage (aithechth¨²ath) to the Dal Fiachrach
Suighe. The Ui Liathain descend from D¨¢ire Cerbba, who is of uncertain origin, sometimes suggested as originating in Brega in modern Co. Meath.
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Wherein lies the nucleus of the elites of the Welsh colony is anyone¡¯s guess, though in the framing of the Expulsion of the Deisi, the old version of the origin myth is very much
interpolated with Welsh genealogies in the context of Eochaid Almuir as one of the 4 sons of Art Corb, who led the settlement in Wales. As ? Cathasaigh points out, this narrative is absent from the later versions of the text. This is perhaps indicative that
the ruling House of Dyfed is to be found in descent from a tribe of the Deisi Muman. Nevertheless, the presence of Lugaid mac L¨®egairi, grandson of Niall of the Nine Hostages, in Wales in the late 480s, as suggested by
Coplestone-Crow might suggest the pre-eminence of the Ui Liathain amongst the colonies elites, given his alleged blood connection to the Ui
Liathain.
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I don¡¯t think I¡¯ve adequately separated out the Ui Liathain
and Deisi Muman out in the context of the Welsh colony and the two have perhaps become conflated in my own narrative and confusion, which has rather spoiled the effect. It would perhaps have been better to concentrate on the Ui Liathain in particular!
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Nevertheless, I think I would stand over a number of the points
made as being signposts for future consideration:-
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The Ui Liathain and Deisi Muman formed the ancestral core of the settlers who left southeast Munster for Wales in the early 4th century ¨C
this is an undoubted fact
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I will put my comments in relation to
CT14 at Claristown, Co. Meath into deep freeze, but note the curiosity of finding a A151+ sample buried so far from its Munster homeland, dating possible to the early 5th Century, and also the presence of modern A151+ ?DNA found deep into south east
Munster. It is possible that A151+ might be one of the aithechth¨²ath tribes of the Deisi, or was in close alliance with them. I don¡¯t think John would agree, but it is another possible avenue of exploration should the Ui Laithain connection ¡®come a cropper¡¯
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°ä°Õ³§4466¡/A151+ is a haplotype may be associated with the settlement in Dyfed, particularly
´¡151/¡¹ó°Õ11485&²µ³Ù;¹ó°Õ74196, which seems to have pushed up into north Wales for reasons that aren¡¯t understood
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The
Ui Liathain of East cork, or at least some branches of this polity, may possibly be A151+. I also note the relative scarcity of
U¨ª Meic Caille septs from the various DNA projects
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The A151+ were, or became, a coastal people - possibly with a core presence in the littoral of south-east Munster, or along the river basins of SE Munster, stretching from east Cork to west Waterford. I would most certainly stand over this and note the central
importance of Waterford as one of the 3 main centres of Viking Ireland (Waterford, Limerick and Dublin), and its close relationship to Dublin. It¡¯s noteworthy that Ireland has 4 major Viking settlements along its from south coast, from Cork, Youghal, Waterford
to Wexford. This perhaps explains the large degree of interaction between A151+ and the Viking world in the Irish sea. The prevalence of A151+ in the Viking world in Ireland and beyond perhaps suggests enslavement or military alliance, or indeed both.
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I look forward to further communication.
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Best,
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N
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