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Hi, I've been following M17 for a couple of years and I'd like to start using it a bit. I've played with DroidStar on my phone and I'm thinking of getting a hotspot and maybe the CS7000-M17. I already have a DMR handheld. Can I use that to talk via M17 through the hotspot? If so, is there any disadvantage to that route, other than not being able to use native M17 repeaters? There don't seem to be any of those around here yet (Midcoast Maine). For a hotspot, I want something that's easily portable, since I'd like to take it with me when I travel. I think that mostly means having a case and relatively low power consumption, so I can power it in the car with a USB adapter. I've also read that M17 benefits from a duplex hotspot. From those requirements, I've been looking at these: https://www.bi7jta.org/shop/dogbone-mini-hotspot-for-duplex-simplex-mmdvm-158?search=duplex++hotspot#attr=320,382,2724 https://cqradios.com/DMR%20repeater%20mini%20plus?search=duplex%20hotspot They both use Pi Zero 2W processors, which should lower power consumption. The B17JTA one has internal antennas, which is an advantage if they work well and a disadvantage otherwise. The ethernet port on the other one would be useful in the shack, I guess. Most of the ones I've seen on Ebay use the single-core Pi Zeros, which I've heard are slow. I'm happy to assemble something myself, but it seems hard to find both boards and cases to fit them. Thanks in advance for any feedback or suggestions! Jim N1ADJ

Is there a possibility of adding in a calendar to this group for events? It would be great to have a location to put in things like nets and M17 in-person events. --- Steve KC1AWV M17 Project

I can't remember if it was here that someone was recently mentioning "little green check marks", so this has already been discussed. I don't remember by whom, but I would like to fill this out a bit, and, at the same time, discuss why an open source environment is key to the success of innovative digital ham methods. The Linux / Windows / MacOS paradigm is a great starting point... Isn't it interesting that nearly all high security web servers run on Linux? How can that be? If the code for the Linux kernel is available to anyone, wouldn't it be easy to find a flaw and break into such a server? Well no, it's not that easy. Why? Because the the open source community has a thousand eye constantly looking over every line of that code. When chinks in the armor are found, or when a break-in (hack) has occurred, a team will create a security update that will be made available to all the flavors of Linux. There are strict rules for how pull requests are reviewed and accepted to the repository that holds that code. Everyone who want's to see the process can closely follow it, and, like I said, there's a lot of eyes on both the process and the code. Fun fact There is actually a very high profile meeting that occurs every year in Las Vegas where security experts, governments and hackers get together and talk about such things. That becomes part of the open source environment and it's an important reason why companies that require security use Linux based servers and not Windows or MacOS. The best open source programmers (and hackers) that attend that meeting are aggressively recruited by companies that also attend that meeting. The open source development system works and it works well. Drop . the . mic . Now, let's switch gears... If you've been a ham long enough, you've probably encountered an outrageous, profane or obnoxious operator, maybe a rouge operator, using a made up callsign, or, even worse one who didn't own the callsign he was using. Or sadly, maybe it's a ham who has snapped for some awful, personal reason and is now behaving poorly. Or maybe your an EMCOMM net controller and need to be sure about your information sources. Wouldn't it be nice if you could quickly identify those situations? Well, Wojciech Kaczmarski SP5WWP has already opened the door to providing a solution. I first saw his announcement on LinkedIn a few months ago. This is big, really big! He shows that in just a little over 8 ms, you can transmit a digital signature on an M17 transmission with a private key. Anyone listening to that transmission with access to the public the key can verify the signature. I know, it confusing. Here is a very short summary of how digital signature works. So what do we need to work out the details? First, the the originator needs to attach a unique digital signature, based on the transmission and the private key. Well mvoice is open source. So is DroidStar. The CS7000-M17 firmware is open source. MMDVM is open source! Okay, that's doable! Note that I'm not saying it's easy, but we've had great examples where open source folk have worked miracles (see the Linux kernel discussion above). For an amateur radio miracle example, Jonathan Naylor G4KLX pretty much alone worked out the open source solution to dealing not only with the complex DMR data stream, but also the incredibly convoluted Yaesu data stream. Another example you ask? How about the OPEN RTX team developing M17 firmware for the MD-380. The MD-380 manufacturer doesn't supply supply manuals for how to do this. The key pairs are easy to generate, the tools are all ready there. Anyone can generate a unique private/public key pair. So the final piece that is needed is for the receiver to use the signer's public key to verify the signature matches the transmission. The signature verifies that the transmission data is signed by the holder of the private key and using the public key is the only way to verify that transmission. But wait, where does he get the public key? Ideally for US callsigns, it would come from a already verified source, like a field in the FCC's ca

All: I thought I’d share this with you, this M17 community of interest. I had a long conversation with a friend on a repeater yesterday after I published Zero Retries 0164 and “Why M17 Is Significant - Part 2”. My friend is the owner of the repeater we were talking on, and I was mentioning how much excitement I was seeing about M17, including the debut of the CS7000 M17. He just didn’t get it - he really didn’t understand that the key feature of M17 is that it’s open. I tried to explain that openness of M17 is the critical feature to the newest generation of Amateur Radio Operators who are digital / Internet natives, are likely techies, and many hackers like the ones who will take Amateur Radio exams this weekend at DEFCON and will become Amateur Radio Operators whose primary interest in Amateur Radio is to hack on radio technology. To my friend, the openness of M17 versus DMR or D-Star or SF was irrelevant considering that DMR, D-Star, and SF are well-established, and why did we “need” another system? I really couldn’t explain it to him in a way that got through to him. He wasn’t convinced, though I’m not sure that he wanted to be convinced. A few hours later, the following analogy occurred to me. I emailed a more terse version of this to him, and I’ll expand this in next week’s Zero Retries. You’re the first to see this made public. … M17 versus the status quo of Amateur Radio digital and FM repeaters is analogous (in my mind) to the computer industry in 1976. In 1976, mainframes and minis were doing the job satisfactorily for the computer industry. Everyone that needed and could afford a computer had one. That’s analogous to the current repeater technology and the current repeater owners. But in 1975, one year earlier, microcomputers had come on the scene. The MITS Altair was unveiled in the January 1975 issue of Popular Electronics magazine. By 1976 a completely new crowd entered the “computer industry” and were using these new (and still very imperfect, by mini and mainframe standards) microcomputers to do computing very differently than was possible with mainframes and minis. The microcomputer folks didn’t ask “permission” from the mainframe and mini folks, and they didn’t try to persuade the mainframe and mini owners that microcomputer were “better” and they should start doing / using microcomputers. Instead of asking permission or trying to persuade, they just started doing things their own new way with microcomputers and rapidly evolved an entirely different version of the computer industry. A decade later, the mainframe and mini computer industry looked around and said “what happened?!?!?” All of the energy in the computer industry had shifted to microcomputers. … In my opinion, from deep observation of M17 and trying to explain it and write about it substantively… M17 in 2024 is at the “computer industry circa 1976" point of inflection. Like microcomputers, M17 is open. Thus there’s no structural issue that prevents M17 from rapidly growing and evolving. In the discussion with my friend, I pointed out that the M17 community doesn’t need to persuade repeater owners, etc. that M17 is “better” or even “good enough” for them to consider using it or adapting their repeaters to it. M17’s technology means that M17 is growing with Internet linking, hotspots, adapters like Module 17, and repeaters that have added MMDVM and M17 is just one mode among many that MMDVM enables. While my friend’s repeater mostly sits idle... I have begun my planning to build up an MMDVM repeater (which will mostly be for M17 and hopefully MMDVM-TNC high speed data mode). I will build up, test it out in my shop (N8GNJ Labs) and eventually have ready for an opportunity to put it on the air from a good location. I’m tired of trying to persuade people that “just don’t want to get it” about newer technology like M17. For the same amount of energy and resources, I’m just going to route around them. The M17 community, worldwide, apparently feels the same. They’re doing M17 because they want to use open systems. Thanks, Steve N8GNJ --- Steve Stroh

On Wed, Aug 14, 2024 at 6:28 PM Tony Langdon via groups.io <vk3jed@...> wrote: > > On 15/8/24 5:30 am, Peter Laws via groups.io wrote: > > For your list, #1 and #2 are *not* wrong. I've not seen a DV <-> > > analog "reflector" yet, but there isn't a good reason there couldn't > > be one. There are bridges between the other DV methods. My problem > > There's heaps, I run several myself! I'm helping with the local D-STAR Gateway and expect to install the "g2_link" link once the dev folks get some ALMA 9 things straightened out. That will give our users use of the full range of "reflectors" including, presumably, yours? I wonder if I could encourage devs of non-DPlus schemes to use the IOP prefix on "reflectors" that bridge between modes? Just to call out the fact that they are a bridge from whatever to whatever. At least until every radio supports M17 natively. I do have an older Pi-Star-based hotspot and the version of Pi-Star it supports (vendor is gone so no new firmware support) *will* do M17 but it doesn't transcode so I can't listen on my D-STAR radios. AFAIK. -- Peter Laws | VE[23]UWY / N5UWY | plaws0 gmail com | Travel by Train!

This is a subsection of Why M17 Is Significant - Part 2 in Zero Retries 0164 tomorrow. Wikipedia - M17 (amateur radio) Of course there is a Wikipedia article for M17… I frequently reference Wikipedia articles to elaborate on certain obscure topics (example - OFDM) that are mentioned in passing in articles in Zero Retries. But for some reason, I never thought to look up M17 in Wikipedia, but I should have. This is an excellent brief description of M17: M17 is a digital radio modulation mode developed by Wojciech Kaczmarski (amateur radio call signSP5WWP) et al. [1][2][3][4][5][6] M17 is primarily designed for voice communications on the VHF amateur radio bands, and above. The project received a grant from the Amateur Radio Digital Communications in 2021[7] and 2022.[8] The protocol has been integrated into several hardware and software projects[citation needed]. In 2021, Kaczmarski received the ARRL Technical Innovation Award for developing an open-source digital radio communication protocol, leading to further advancements in amateur radio.[9] This article is pretty good, but it needs some updating from folks with good knowledge of the current state of M17. For example, the new CS7000 M17 radio isn’t mentioned in the Hardware Support subsection. … Any volunteers willing to take on the needed update? Thanks, Steve N8GNJ --- Steve Stroh N8GNJ (he / him / his) Editor Zero Retries Newsletter - https://www.zeroretries.org Radios are Computers - With Antennas!

It would be great if more multi-mode DV repeater owners decided to enable M17 and update their RepeaterBook or Repeater World entries accordingly. This is a call to action - please ask your local DV repeater admins to enable the mode. Where MMDVM is used, it should be a very simple task. It's a simple loop: no infrastructure -> no users -> no infrastructure -> no users -> ... Together we can break it. RepeaterBook lists 41 entries already!

If there were friends that were wanting to join this email list, that’s now possible as the current paid tier is now good up to 500 subscribers. And... Zero Retries 0164 has published with the l o n g article Why M17 Is Significant - Part 2 - https://www.zeroretries.org/p/zero-retries-0164 Thanks, Steve N8GNJ -- Steve Stroh N8GNJ (he / him / his) Editor Zero Retries Newsletter - https://www.zeroretries.org Radios are Computers - With Antennas!

I wrote a long article treatment on M17 in today’s Zero Retries 0163 - Why M17 Is Significant https://www.zeroretries.org/i/147023976/why-m-is-significant Enjoy reading (and I’m looking forward to hearing what I got wrong for a future update). Steve N8GNJ Steve Stroh N8GNJ (he / him / his) Editor Zero Retries Newsletter - https://www.zeroretries.org Radios are Computers - With Antennas!

All: This list just hit 100 subscribers, so given that it’s still on the Free tier at 开云体育, we’re full up (cannot accept any additional subscribers) until I step up to support the Paid tier. If you aren’t on the Connect Systems mailing list, I suggest you do so to follow the progress of the CS M17 Radios. If you go to https://www.connectsystems.com/products/top/radios/CS7000_M17.htm and stay there for a few minutes, you should see a popup for the CS newsletter. I wish I had a stable URL for subscribing, but I don’t. Here’s the latest from the CS newsletter as of today: STATUS OF M17 PROJECT The CS7000 M17 has started shipping. The first two has shipped to Japan. The rest will ship either Monday or Tuesday. They would have shipped yesterday but the manufacturer forgot to include the programming cables. The cables are being shipped by DHL and they suppose to be here on Tuesday. I am hoping they will get here on Monday. All the radios are packed along with the USPS labels on the box. Only need to put the programming cable in the box and close it. Once we start shipping those radios, the price will go from $249 to $299. As I said in an earlier email, the discount is because the early buyers are in effect subsidizing the production and I thought they should get a discount. The CS7000 M17 PLUS is coming along but we did have one hiccup. The manufacturer wanted to make sure the DVSI vocoder will work on the M7 version of the ARM microprocessor. The current microprocessor is the M4 version of the microprocessor. They are going to try it and should get the results in a few more days. ST micro says the M7 is backwards compatible with the M4. I thought I would find out about the compatibility myself by asking DVSI, the originator of the vocoder. They had a nasty attitude and told me unless I was the licensee of the vocoder, they would not tell me. I started out by calling them and the person I needed to speak to was not there. I left a message and they never called me back. Because they did not call back, over the next two days I called a few times per day hoping I would get someone. No one answered when I called them. Then they asked me not to call so much. If they answered and told me they would not give me an answer I would not have bothered them again. Over the next few days you will see an application note on our website on how to convert from DMR to M17 and M17 to DMR. Supporting The M17 Project We are asking the amateur community to buy in advance one or more of the radios. When the radios are available, you will be the first to get them at a discount from the standard price of the radio. If at anytime you decide you would rather not support this project, you can get your money back and then get in the back of the line for when the radios are released. As far as I'm aware, CS is the only company that is shipping a radio that can do M17 “out of the box”. I hope there will be significant support for Connect Systems with these radios. I wish I could purchase a pair, but my experiment budget is insufficient to do so at the moment. Request: Do you know of a repeater that includes MMDVM support, that can corresponding do M17? Please post back to this list if you know of such a repeater. Thanks, Steve N8GNJ -- Steve Stroh N8GNJ (he / him / his) Editor Zero Retries Newsletter - https://www.zeroretries.org Radios are Computers - With Antennas!

I'm new to M17. I've just set up DroidStar for Android, and it works fine on DMR. So now I need to see if it works on M17. A few questions: --Is there an echo or parrot for M17? --Is there a list of regularly scheduled nets? --Is there an M17 interest group in the Pacific Northwest? -- Bill K7WFB Seattle

Actual (no just introducing) M17 on YouTube! Let's Build a Module17! - YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kzZyr4_tpE

Not clear on where M17 fits into the firmament. o D-STAR (JARL copyright, Icom trademark) - a stream protocol that uses AMBE to digitize the voice part of the stream and wiggles the electrons as GMSK. o YSF (presumably copyrighted and trademarked by Yaesu) - a protocol (is it a stream or packetized) that uses AMBE+2 to digitize the voice part of the stream and wiggles the electrons as C4FM. o DMR (copyrighted by ETSI and maybe trademarked by them too) - a protocol (is it a stream or packetized) that uses AMBE+2 to digitize the voice part of the stream and wiggles the electrons as 4FSK (and TDMA to boot). See if I have this right: o M17 - a protocol (stream? packetized?) that uses CODEC2 to digitize the voice part of the stream and wiggles the electrons as ????. IMBE, AMBE, AMBE+, and AMBE+2 are all the IP of DVSI, Inc. It's unclear to me (K6BP probably knows! see below) whether or not the patents on the first two have expired or not. CODEC2 is not encumbered by patents and, for everything I've seen, actually superior to at least the older versions of DVSI's work (meaning that we would really like to use it for *two* reasons. :-) ) So, leaving IP aside, do I have the basics of M17 right - it's a protocol that uses CODEC2 to digitize voice? This is already 10 years old - https://www.qsl.net/kb9mwr/projects/dv/codec/AMBE_Exposed.pdf - I'll see if Bruce has updated it. -- Peter Laws | VE[23]UWY / N5UWY | plaws0 gmail com | Travel by Train!

> W0CHP > > WPSD Author/Principal Developer/BDFL I have only recently become hotspotted - someone gifted me a Nano-Spot a few years back and I just made it go this month. Whole new world of geekery ... necessitated by the fact that I don't have an outside antenna for UHF at this house which we just bought last November. Yes, I need to get my butt in gear. WPSD looks interesting but I doubt it will install on my EOLed Nano-Spot (company gone). Off to read the docs! -- Peter Laws | VE[23]UWY / N5UWY | plaws0 gmail com | Travel by Train!

BlueDV and ClearNode have many other digital technologies available. Is there any way to influence the developers of those to add M-17 ? I there anyone that can help the WPSD Digital Voice by W0CHP and his team to add a Cross mode or transcoding so we could access M-17 from DMR or Fusion ? 73, Bob KB6CIO

Apologies for my not being more of a presence on this list. Zero Retries is my priority and I’m still not done with my “big M17 article”, which I will post here in addition to Zero Retries when complete. I’m aiming to have that done by mid-July. Administrivia: Currently, M17-Users is on the free tier of groups.io, which means the only groups.io features available is the BASIC email list. There are currently 90+ subscribers on this list. At the point where there are 100, no more can be added on the free tier. Beyond 100 subscribers I’ll need to change over to Premium which will be a minimum of $20/month which I’ll probably carry for a while as part of Zero Retries thanks to those who sign up for a paid subscription to Zero Retries. Just as an example of the finances, when I do switch over to Premium just for this list, the income from three annual subscriptions to Zero Retries would be required to pay for this list, after factoring in taxes, the chunk that Substack takes, etc. When I do switch over to Premium, I’ll also set “Accept Donations”. Any donations will directly offset the payments to groups.io to maintain this list - they won’t go to Zero Retries, but rather will mean that I don’t have to pay as much (or at all) to keep this list going. Pending developments in M17-world that I’m aware of: What Woj will be discussing at HAM RADIO starting tomorrow. He’ll be a speaker and (I think) an exhibitor. The Connect Systems M17 radios to debut for real sale and use. One of the biggest things that would differentiate M17 from all the other DV systems is a seamless way to do data / messaging / telemetry (like APRS), etc. All the other DV systems have data / messaging / telemetry as an afterthought at best. Having been developed in the past decade, I’m hoping that M17 will be better than all those other systems in regard to data / messaging / telemetry. When I’ve asked a few times about it, I’m told “Yes, it’s in there” but no one has provided any pointers or details. Thus, from what little I know, data / messaging / telemetry in M17 is still an open question. All the YouTube videos that we’ve seen to date have been general introductions, updates, or “science experiments” like how to set up Module 17 or mod radios to implement M17. I think that showing / discussing repeaters that have MMDVM (and thus, M17 as just another DV mode) and the Connect Systems portables using such a repeater will go a long way to making M17 more mainstream. One point that I think hasn’t been made… strongly enough… is that for all of those folks that don’t like that D-Star, DMR, SF, P25, etc. all use the DVSI proprietary CODEC chip… well, now those folks HAVE an option with M17 using Codec 2. Thus every time we see those arguments that “proprietary CODECs shouldn’t be allowed on Amateur Radio”, we need to point out that there IS now an option for that issue with M17. Unfortunately there are helluva lot of “hard coded” DMR, D-Star, SF repeaters out there that folks are going to be loathe to change. Thus there’s going to have to be a lot of work to experiment and document and create videos on how those hard coded repeaters can be made to run MMDVM and M17. Lastly... PLEASE TALK AMONGST YOURSELVES ABOUT M17 HERE ON THIS LIST! THIS IS NOT A SOAPBOAX / BROADCAST LIST, IT’S INTENDED TO BE A DISCUSSION, AND I’M VERY MUCH IN LEARNING MODE ABOUT M17. Thanks, Steve N8GNJ (Just one of many co-conspirators working to promote M17 and other 21st century Amateur Radio systems) -- Steve Stroh N8GNJ (he / him / his) Editor Zero Retries Newsletter - https://www.zeroretries.org Radios are Computers - With Antennas!

In the list of M17 hardware/software, I neglected to mention M17tools, which can use audio devices to generate M17 baseband. One conveniently packaged hardware device is the Digirig, which can pass the baseband, as well as provide PTT. Unfortunately, the current version of M17tools doesn't like my Windows laptop - there's brief interruptions to the audio (baseband) in both directions, which corrupts the signal. M17tools is being rewritten, and there's a good chance the rewritten version will run on my system. -- 73 de Tony VK3JED/VK3IRL http://vkradio.com

Hi everyone, just a quick introduction. Tony, VK3JED here, located in central Victoria, Australia. I've been following the M17 Project since late 2020, when I discovered it by accident via one of the DVSwitch mailing lists. I've been involved in the community since in a few ways - testing software and hardware, promoting M17 at hamfests and club meetings, and supporting other users on the M17 Discord, Facebook and other social media. Equipment wise, I have the following: Gateways BI7JTA duplex hotspot with hand built MMDVM stack (no Pi-Star or WPSD) running on a Pi 3B. The reason for the unusual configuration is because the hotspot is an analogue and digital hotspot, with an AllStar node driving a SHARI for the analogue side. I had to use the ASL 2.0 beta image, then install the MMDVM software on top from source. BI7JTA V3F4 MMDVM with external radios on a Pi 3B, configured as a repeater. This runs a heavily hacked version of Pi-Star, as it dates back to the first M17 capable version of MMDVMHost and M17Gateway. While I've upgraded software components, I haven't replaced the system with anything like WPSD (yet). Currently, the repeater is running into a dummy load. I have to install its antenna and update the licence paperwork. M17 radios BI7JTA V3F4 MMDVM running M17Client. This was my first operational M17 radio setup. The radio used with this MMDVM is a FT-818 in 9600 PKT mode. Module17 (Rev 0.1e). Also configured to work with the FT-818. Uses the same interface cable as the MMDVM. TNC3 with experimental firmware. SDR++ (Rx only). Very useful for testing M17 transmitters, because SDR++ has a very good M17 decoder with reference lines that allow you to check deviation. I usually use a PlutoSDR as the RF front end. I also have a RT3S, but need to get it modified. I don't trust my fine motor coordination. Anyway, I should be able to help others get on the air.

I just clarified in an email with Scott Zimmerman N3XCC of Repeater Builder, that their version of MMDVM, which they call RB_STM32_DVM V4 (latest) - https://www.repeater-builder.com/products/stm32-dvm.html does support all the same modes as the current MMDVM firmware: D-Star DMR System Fusion P25 NXDN M17 POCSAG AX.25 FM IE, it’s just another MMDVM device. The current verbiage on that web page omits M17 POCSAG AX.25 But those modes are supported by the V4 hardware, assuming the version of firmware loaded onto the unit is the latest. Thus, there is “repeater grade” hardware, and more importantly documentation and support, available to add MMDVM support to many / most Amateur Radio FM repeater systems. This is really good news for breathing life into tired old, increasingly unused Amateur Radio FM repeaters. Thanks, Steve N8GNJ

I just discovered this… https://m17.club/ The premier M17 Amateur Radio Club Where the M17 Project is largely centered around development of the protocol and implementations of it, the M17 Amateur Radio Club (ARC) is a user group focused specifically on encouraging and supporting the spread of M17 repeaters, mobiles, handhelds, and all other use of the protocol. That sounds a lot like the mission of this email list. Anyone know anything about this? Thanks, Steve N8GNJ -- Steve Stroh N8GNJ (he / him / his) Editor Zero Retries Newsletter - https://www.zeroretries.org Radios are Computers - With Antennas!