I took your poll, but also wanted to pass along this info – ? KD0OSS is selling a v1.0 Module17 board – with 3D-printed enclosure – on eBay.? Check out ? I have both the 0.1e board from Lilygo and the above 1.0 board with case.? That case is really well done.? It includes an HMI touch panel.? I use that product now for all my M17 RF QSOs. ? ??? Jim – K6JM ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Steve Stroh N8GNJ via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, March 9, 2025 2:13 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [M17-Users] Module 17 Usage #poll-notice? A new poll has been created: Module17 is an adapter for (typically, mobile) radios with a flat audio (data, or 9600) input. It's open source and the primary source for one that is assembled and tested is LILYGO - . But two problems with that unit: * The version LILYGO (had been) shipping is Rev. 0.1e, and the current hardware design is Rev. 1.0 (lots of fixes and updates). * LILYGO shows that Module17-Revision 0.1e is out of stock. Thus I'd like to do a poll about the use and interest of Module 17. Your answers would help out a lot. I will close this poll approximately Monday 2025-03-17. (Apologies - this is the first time I've conducted a poll on 开云体育, so I'm fumbling my way through it.) Multiple choices are allowed, and I've set this poll not to display who has responded to the poll. 1. I am interested in Module17 to operate M17 mode with a mobile radio that has flat audio inputs.
2. I've already purchased a Module17.
3. I'm waiting to purchase a Module17 when Rev. 1.0 is available for purchase.
4. I'm willing to pay more for Module17 if I can get a Rev. 1.0 from a source other than LILYGO. Click Here To Vote Do not reply to this message to vote in the poll. You can vote in polls only through the group's website.
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Steve, this isn’t a direct response to your poll questions, but I’m interested in experimenting with M17 using the TNC4 I already have.?
73,
Craig N7RWB
|
Module17 is an adapter for (typically, mobile) radios with a flat audio (data, or 9600) input.
?
It's open source and the primary source for one that is assembled and tested is LILYGO - .
?
But two problems with that unit:
* The version LILYGO (had been) shipping is Rev. 0.1e, and the current hardware design is Rev. 1.0 (lots of fixes and updates).
* LILYGO shows that Module17-Revision 0.1e is out of stock.
?
Thus I'd like to do a poll about the use and interest of Module 17. Your answers would help out a lot.
?
I will close this poll approximately Monday 2025-03-17.
?
(Apologies - this is the first time I've conducted a poll on 开云体育, so I'm fumbling my way through it.)
?
Multiple choices are allowed, and I've set this poll not to display who has responded to the poll.
?
Steve Stroh N8GNJ
?
?
Thank you for voting.
Results
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M17 Conference 2025 in Poland
M17 Conference 2025 in Poland, September 6-7 (Sat-Sun)
?
The M17 Foundation is pleased to inform that the M17 Conference 2025 will take place on 6-7 September, in Nowy Dwór Mazowiecki, Poland. The main topic will be open-source software and hardware development in the amateur radio realm, with the emphasis on M17 and all the solutions around it. Any topic that might be interesting to the ham radio community is welcomed!
?
The venue is located very conveniently, just 40km from Warsaw, and a stone's throw from the Warsaw-Modlin airport. The event will be a combination of technical talk sessions and exhibitions. Admission is free.
?
Speakers and exhibitors are required to register. The registration form is available through the link below.
?
More info:
?
Wojciech Kaczmarski, SP5WWP
M17 Foundation
|
Re: Presentation and request.
Has anyone helped you out?
|
Re: Presentation and request.
Mr. Laws,
M17-OKL A is tied to the OklahomaLink, which covers Dstar, DMR, YSF, P25, and NXDN as its other modes. ?You can join us for the weekly M17 nets on Saturday at 12 central US (1800 Z) on XLXOKL B via Dstar.
All the other reflectors are listed on RCWA.ORG.
—Jeff AE5ME
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Feb 13, 2025, at 8:08 PM, Robert Alford via groups.io <Mw1coe@...> wrote:
? I use USRP to ASL which allows me to access the M17 Reflectors via a Analog Radio
Works Really Well..
I guess in Theory a M17 to USRP to DSTAR could be possible..
Rob.. I'm "M17-curious" but have no plans to buy an M17 radio (yet).? I have
a Pi-Star/MMDVM hotspot and the dashboard says it can do M17 but I
only have D-STAR radios.? The hotspot is old and is no longer
supported so I'm stuck at the version of those packages that it
currently has.
I assume that hotspots are incapable of transcoding so is there an
M17-D-STAR bridge somewhere out there?? I see that there are a lot of
cross-realm reflectors out there now (YSF <-> DMR <-> D-STAR) but are
there any that do M17?
Peter
--
Peter Laws - VE[23]UWY / N5UWY
Admin VE2RM
Admin W5TC (ret.)
On Wed, Feb 12, 2025 at 2:10?PM Jeff Scoville via
<ae5me=[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I will record the next M17-OKL A net on Saturday at 1800 UTC and email you the audio file.
>
> --Jeff AE5ME
>
> On Wednesday, February 12, 2025 at 05:34:24 AM CST, Wojciech Kaczmarski <w.kaczmarski@...> wrote:
>
>
> Great! I think Jeff AE5ME might be able to help you out with this task. Maybe ask on Facebook and Discord too, just in case.
>
--
Peter Laws | VE[23]UWY / N5UWY | plaws0 gmail com | Travel by Train!
-- No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced !
|
Re: Presentation and request.
I use USRP to ASL which allows me to access the M17 Reflectors via a Analog Radio
Works Really Well..
I guess in Theory a M17 to USRP to DSTAR could be possible..
Rob..
I'm "M17-curious" but have no plans to buy an M17 radio (yet).? I have
a Pi-Star/MMDVM hotspot and the dashboard says it can do M17 but I
only have D-STAR radios.? The hotspot is old and is no longer
supported so I'm stuck at the version of those packages that it
currently has.
I assume that hotspots are incapable of transcoding so is there an
M17-D-STAR bridge somewhere out there?? I see that there are a lot of
cross-realm reflectors out there now (YSF <-> DMR <-> D-STAR) but are
there any that do M17?
Peter
--
Peter Laws - VE[23]UWY / N5UWY
Admin VE2RM
Admin W5TC (ret.)
On Wed, Feb 12, 2025 at 2:10?PM Jeff Scoville via
<ae5me=[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I will record the next M17-OKL A net on Saturday at 1800 UTC and email you the audio file.
>
> --Jeff AE5ME
>
> On Wednesday, February 12, 2025 at 05:34:24 AM CST, Wojciech Kaczmarski <w.kaczmarski@...> wrote:
>
>
> Great! I think Jeff AE5ME might be able to help you out with this task. Maybe ask on Facebook and Discord too, just in case.
>
--
Peter Laws | VE[23]UWY / N5UWY | plaws0 gmail com | Travel by Train!
-- No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced !
|
Re: Encryption/Authentication
Both AES and ECDSA: * *
I tested ECDSA on my Module17 and got it to work in real-time (append signature to the stream) using CMOX library.?
Pozdrawiam/Best regards,
Wojciech Kaczmarski
|
Encryption/Authentication
Are there any existing M17 implementations which implement?either AES encryption or ECDSA signatures?
Kind Regards,
Rob Riggs WX9O
Mobilinkd LLC
|
Re: Presentation and request.
Thanks a lot.
If? file is too big,( more MB help in? the analysis)? please use a server like
or? similar.
?
Best regards.
ANgazu.
|
Re: Presentation and request.
I'm "M17-curious" but have no plans to buy an M17 radio (yet). I have a Pi-Star/MMDVM hotspot and the dashboard says it can do M17 but I only have D-STAR radios. The hotspot is old and is no longer supported so I'm stuck at the version of those packages that it currently has. I assume that hotspots are incapable of transcoding so is there an M17-D-STAR bridge somewhere out there? I see that there are a lot of cross-realm reflectors out there now (YSF <-> DMR <-> D-STAR) but are there any that do M17? Peter -- Peter Laws - VE[23]UWY / N5UWY Admin VE2RM Admin W5TC (ret.) On Wed, Feb 12, 2025 at 2:10?PM Jeff Scoville via groups.io <ae5me@...> wrote:
I will record the next M17-OKL A net on Saturday at 1800 UTC and email you the audio file.
--Jeff AE5ME
On Wednesday, February 12, 2025 at 05:34:24 AM CST, Wojciech Kaczmarski <w.kaczmarski@...> wrote:
Great! I think Jeff AE5ME might be able to help you out with this task. Maybe ask on Facebook and Discord too, just in case.
-- Peter Laws | VE[23]UWY / N5UWY | plaws0 gmail com | Travel by Train!
|
Re: Presentation and request.
I will record the next M17-OKL A net on Saturday at 1800 UTC and email you the audio file.
--Jeff AE5ME
On Wednesday, February 12, 2025 at 05:34:24 AM CST, Wojciech Kaczmarski <w.kaczmarski@...> wrote:
Great! I think Jeff AE5ME might be able to help you out with this task. Maybe ask on Facebook and Discord too, just in case.
|
Re: Presentation and request.
Great! I think Jeff AE5ME might be able to help you out with this task. Maybe ask on Facebook and Discord too, just in case.
|
Re: Presentation and request.
Revista: Selvamar noticias. ?
Foro: ?
?
?
Saludos cordiales/ Best regards.
ANgazu.
?
?
On Wed, Feb 12, 2025 at 11:26 AM, Jose Manuel ea8ee wrote:
|
Re: Presentation and request.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hello.
Thank you very much for allowing me to join this group
My nick is ANgazu and my hobby is signal analysis.
?
I am looking for recordings of the M17 mode (signal on the air) for analysis to publish results in a forum and a radio amateur magazine (in Spanish).
If someone would be kind enough to record the signal (preferably several minutes of conversation with another correspondent) using an SDR either in RF or in baseband (USB) in IQ or real format and uncompressed wav, I would appreciate it.
Thank you very much.
Best regards.
ANgazu.
|
Presentation and request.
Hello.
Thank you very much for allowing me to join this group
My nick is ANgazu and my hobby is signal analysis.
?
I am looking for recordings of the M17 mode (signal on the air) for analysis to publish results in a forum and a radio amateur magazine (in Spanish).
If someone would be kind enough to record the signal (preferably several minutes of conversation with another correspondent) using an SDR either in RF or in baseband (USB) in IQ or real format and uncompressed wav, I would appreciate it.
Thank you very much.
Best regards.
ANgazu.
|
Re: A challenge - document M17 data use
was your packet mode code tested against or is compatible with either the Mobilinkd firmware or m17-cxx-demod
Most likely not, as I changed the way Frame Counter works in the Packet Mode to allow for one extra frame. See for details.
|
MD-380 mods - new hardware revision?
One of our club members is trying to modify a pair of the MD-380 radios for the M17 mod but says that the current board layout doesn't match the one in the YouTube videos and that he can't locate one of the capacitors that's to be removed. Does anyone have any info on this issue?
?
Thanks
?
Jon WB2MNF
|
Re: A challenge - document M17 data use
I will try to find some time to catch up on the current state of M17, especially the packet modes being used. And I'll try to make a simple M17 texting app for Android and Mobilinkd TNCs. I'm pretty busy with other stuff at the moment.
@SP5WPP was your packet mode code tested against or is compatible with either the Mobilinkd firmware or m17-cxx-demod?
I had been thinking about the infrastructure bit, but I've been away from the M17 community for quite a while and don't know what the current state is. No one seemed particularly interested in packet mode at the time I wrote the spec.
It would be nice to be able to send a "I'm here" packet that was sent to some global routing backend, along with the gateway that picked up the packet so that if someone somewhere else in the world wanted to text me, they could both know that I am listening and their message could find its way to me. But there is a lot to think about with this. It would be interesting to use the existing infrastructure for some of this. There is a global network for amateur radio use already in place. We would need to discuss with the APRS community. (I am a member of the APRS SIG.) It seemed to me that D*Star integration with the APRS infrastructure was a selling point for many of the early D*Star adopters.
APRS is interesting because it should in theory be possible to message anyone in the world near an iGate (internet gateway) via APRS. APRS iGates send messages received over RF (APRS-RF) to APRS-IS, and any APRS iGate that sees a message over APRS-IS sent to a callsign that it has seen recently should transmit that via APRS-RF. Something similar can be used for M17 gateways.
Do we need to worry about M17 amateur radio user infrastructure and M17 for non-amateur uses? If so, how do we do that? For example, we would not be able to use APRS-IS for anything but amateur radio.
Do M17 text messages need to be acknowledged by the recipient? APRS has a messaging protocol that can request acknowledgement, and a retry protocol. This is typically enabled for terrestrial communication and disabled for space-based comms (e.g. anything sent via the ISS digipeater).
Kind Regards,
Rob Riggs WX9O
Mobilinkd LLC
Funny you should ask this Steve. This week, inspired by SP5WWP's , I've started to look at M17 data, which is called Packet?Mode in the spec. It seems like it's kind of underspecified right now. The lower-level stuff?in Section 2.7 seems complete (although I haven't tried to use it to implement anything yet). Right now I'm focusing on the higher layers which say things?like "ATTENTION This is work in progress." There is some info there, but some things I can't quite figure out. There are some POC implementations, e.g. at and?, but it seems like it's still early days. Some of the puzzle pisces?are there, but some of the ones needed to build the system you'd want may not exist yet.
Just to be crystal clear: None of the above is meant to be a criticism! Instead, it's more like an opportunity to get in early and help shape the capabilities going forward. Also, I'm new to this, so it's totally possible that I've just missed some of the things out?there.
What I think I've learned: Texting currently is only over RF because there's no MMDVM, M17Gateway or reflector support for M17 Packet Mode yet. There's no OpenRTX support, so the only way to text with M17 is with SP5WWP's Nokia device or a 9600 baud capable radio with a modem, Digirig, etc. and some of the POC tools mentioned above.
If there were gateway?and reflector support you could send and receive messages with anyone connected to the same reflector, rather than just the same repeater/hotspot. At that point it would be worthwhile to define routing--Tony VK3JED mentioned?D-Star's?ircDDB as a possible model.You could also build bridges to other messaging systems.
The other thing necessary is application clients. It would be great if OpenRTX got a texting client so I could text with my CS7000. That's outside my area of expertise, so I'm working on a network messaging client POC--think Droidstar but for text messages (and not nearly as nice looking). That has also led me to look at the gateway/reflector piece. I'm starting to pick at those and hope to have something to show at some point.
Keep in mind that when I refer to messaging above, I really mean M17 Packet?Mode data. If you solve these problems for texting, you can use the infrastructure to build lots of different applications. So someone should be thinking about what those applications could be and how they should work. Steve, I know you're good at envisioning that sort of thing, so I'd love to hear your thoughts!
Hope this helps!
Jim N1ADJ
On Fri, Jan 24, 2025 at 2:18?PM Steve Stroh N8GNJ via <steve.stroh= [email protected]> wrote: Apologies for being missing on this list. I’ve been keeping an eye on it, and eagerly read any postings. The subscriber count has grown to 158, with 40 distinct topics discussed, since its creation on 2024-05-31.
I decided to promote, encourage, evangelize M17 in Zero Retries, and create this list, because I discovered that “all the pieces were in place” for M17 to be a viable alternative to DMR, D-Star, System Fusion, and others. Thanks to the very hard work of?Wojciech Kaczmarski SP5WWP and others, M17 is no longer an experiment, but a usable system. (To be clear, I’m not positing that M17 is now static and done - there’s still ample experimentation and evolution possible, and hoped for.)
Those pieces included MMDVM supporting M17 as “just another digital voice mode” enabling repeaters (that have incorporated an MMDVM) to provide M17 service, M17 “modems”, the Mobilinkd TNC3 and TNC4, modifications for radios developed by OpenRTX, and most recently, the Connect Systems CS7000 M17 and CS7000 M17 PLUS portable radios.
Other M17 “pieces” are referenced in the (new to me) M17 (amateur radio)?Wikipedia article - . (Kudos if the author of that is on this list.)
I had a secondary, but strong reason for reason to?promote, encourage, evangelize M17 in Zero Retries. M17 was the first digital voice mode in use for Amateur Radio that (as best I understand it) incorporated data as co-equal to digital voice. As in, you can transmit data as easily as digital voice, and data transmissions would be handled through all M17 infrastructure, especially repeaters.
It’s still queued up for me to document the “dirty details” of how poorly data is accommodated in DMR, D-Star, System Fusion, and P25… “data capability” is present in all of those, but it’s so poorly implemented as to be impractical for actual use in Amateur Radio.
Here’s MY problem with data in M17… I have no idea HOW to actually use the data capability of M17. I haven’t (to date) seen a “Using Data on M17 for Dummies” guide.
I should, and have had on my to do list for a while, buy a TNC4 and learn how the TNC4 handles data over M17.
Candidly, I have my (writing and research) “hands” full at the moment with various high priority projects in Zero Retries to dive into this and learn the details and document them myself. Not to mention a bit of support to M17 behind the scenes.
So… the challenge you “M17 USERS"… could one of you experts in using M17 (and there are a number of you on this list) dig out the details and write up exactly, in detail, how one uses data on M17?
PLEASE don’t be intimidated by the need to “write a formal paper” or an article or any of such extraneous issue. What’s needed is the detailed information about how to use data on M17. If someone is able to explain / document it, I can clean it up and publish it with full credit to the author(s). This writeup isn’t intended solely for Zero Retries - I think it’s a critical piece of info for promoting M17, and so it will be reformatted into a standalone article for posting to the M17 Project website.
Why does this matter?
Because with the success with the CS7000 M17 and CS7000 M17 PLUS (they’re selling…), I’ll guess that we’re about to see more radios coming out with “from the factory” support for M17. But the CS7000 M17 and M17 PLUS only implemented M17 voice - not data (as far as I have seen from their marketing material).
If we don’t popularize M17’s data capability, and SOON, then the ability to use data in those new radios won’t be enabled.
I hope that eventually using data on M17 will be as simple as connecting a USB cable or connecting via Bluetooth between a host computer (laptop, Raspberry Pi) and an M17 enabled radio and connect to the radio like a KISS TNC. Or something equally simple.
The first radio to incorporate M17 voice + data will get the “full evangelism” treatment in Zero Retries that I gave the emergence of the CS7000 M17.
My profound Thanks to those who accept my challenge.
Steve N8GNJ
---
Steve Stroh N8GNJ (he / him / his)EditorZero Retries Newsletter -? Radios are Computers - With Antennas!
|
Re: A challenge - document M17 data use
Funny you should ask this Steve. This week, inspired by SP5WWP's , I've started to look at M17 data, which is called Packet?Mode in the spec. It seems like it's kind of underspecified right now. The lower-level stuff?in Section 2.7 seems complete (although I haven't tried to use it to implement anything yet). Right now I'm focusing on the higher layers which say things?like "ATTENTION This is work in progress." There is some info there, but some things I can't quite figure out. There are some POC implementations, e.g. at and?, but it seems like it's still early days. Some of the puzzle pisces?are there, but some of the ones needed to build the system you'd want may not exist yet.
Just to be crystal clear: None of the above is meant to be a criticism! Instead, it's more like an opportunity to get in early and help shape the capabilities going forward. Also, I'm new to this, so it's totally possible that I've just missed some of the things out?there.
What I think I've learned: Texting currently is only over RF because there's no MMDVM, M17Gateway or reflector support for M17 Packet Mode yet. There's no OpenRTX support, so the only way to text with M17 is with SP5WWP's Nokia device or a 9600 baud capable radio with a modem, Digirig, etc. and some of the POC tools mentioned above.
If there were gateway?and reflector support you could send and receive messages with anyone connected to the same reflector, rather than just the same repeater/hotspot. At that point it would be worthwhile to define routing--Tony VK3JED mentioned?D-Star's?ircDDB as a possible model.You could also build bridges to other messaging systems.
The other thing necessary is application clients. It would be great if OpenRTX got a texting client so I could text with my CS7000. That's outside my area of expertise, so I'm working on a network messaging client POC--think Droidstar but for text messages (and not nearly as nice looking). That has also led me to look at the gateway/reflector piece. I'm starting to pick at those and hope to have something to show at some point.
Keep in mind that when I refer to messaging above, I really mean M17 Packet?Mode data. If you solve these problems for texting, you can use the infrastructure to build lots of different applications. So someone should be thinking about what those applications could be and how they should work. Steve, I know you're good at envisioning that sort of thing, so I'd love to hear your thoughts!
Hope this helps!
Jim N1ADJ
On Fri, Jan 24, 2025 at 2:18?PM Steve Stroh N8GNJ via <steve.stroh= [email protected]> wrote: Apologies for being missing on this list. I’ve been keeping an eye on it, and eagerly read any postings. The subscriber count has grown to 158, with 40 distinct topics discussed, since its creation on 2024-05-31.
I decided to promote, encourage, evangelize M17 in Zero Retries, and create this list, because I discovered that “all the pieces were in place” for M17 to be a viable alternative to DMR, D-Star, System Fusion, and others. Thanks to the very hard work of?Wojciech Kaczmarski SP5WWP and others, M17 is no longer an experiment, but a usable system. (To be clear, I’m not positing that M17 is now static and done - there’s still ample experimentation and evolution possible, and hoped for.)
Those pieces included MMDVM supporting M17 as “just another digital voice mode” enabling repeaters (that have incorporated an MMDVM) to provide M17 service, M17 “modems”, the Mobilinkd TNC3 and TNC4, modifications for radios developed by OpenRTX, and most recently, the Connect Systems CS7000 M17 and CS7000 M17 PLUS portable radios.
Other M17 “pieces” are referenced in the (new to me) M17 (amateur radio)?Wikipedia article - . (Kudos if the author of that is on this list.)
I had a secondary, but strong reason for reason to?promote, encourage, evangelize M17 in Zero Retries. M17 was the first digital voice mode in use for Amateur Radio that (as best I understand it) incorporated data as co-equal to digital voice. As in, you can transmit data as easily as digital voice, and data transmissions would be handled through all M17 infrastructure, especially repeaters.
It’s still queued up for me to document the “dirty details” of how poorly data is accommodated in DMR, D-Star, System Fusion, and P25… “data capability” is present in all of those, but it’s so poorly implemented as to be impractical for actual use in Amateur Radio.
Here’s MY problem with data in M17… I have no idea HOW to actually use the data capability of M17. I haven’t (to date) seen a “Using Data on M17 for Dummies” guide.
I should, and have had on my to do list for a while, buy a TNC4 and learn how the TNC4 handles data over M17.
Candidly, I have my (writing and research) “hands” full at the moment with various high priority projects in Zero Retries to dive into this and learn the details and document them myself. Not to mention a bit of support to M17 behind the scenes.
So… the challenge you “M17 USERS"… could one of you experts in using M17 (and there are a number of you on this list) dig out the details and write up exactly, in detail, how one uses data on M17?
PLEASE don’t be intimidated by the need to “write a formal paper” or an article or any of such extraneous issue. What’s needed is the detailed information about how to use data on M17. If someone is able to explain / document it, I can clean it up and publish it with full credit to the author(s). This writeup isn’t intended solely for Zero Retries - I think it’s a critical piece of info for promoting M17, and so it will be reformatted into a standalone article for posting to the M17 Project website.
Why does this matter?
Because with the success with the CS7000 M17 and CS7000 M17 PLUS (they’re selling…), I’ll guess that we’re about to see more radios coming out with “from the factory” support for M17. But the CS7000 M17 and M17 PLUS only implemented M17 voice - not data (as far as I have seen from their marketing material).
If we don’t popularize M17’s data capability, and SOON, then the ability to use data in those new radios won’t be enabled.
I hope that eventually using data on M17 will be as simple as connecting a USB cable or connecting via Bluetooth between a host computer (laptop, Raspberry Pi) and an M17 enabled radio and connect to the radio like a KISS TNC. Or something equally simple.
The first radio to incorporate M17 voice + data will get the “full evangelism” treatment in Zero Retries that I gave the emergence of the CS7000 M17.
My profound Thanks to those who accept my challenge.
Steve N8GNJ
---
Steve Stroh N8GNJ (he / him / his)EditorZero Retries Newsletter -? Radios are Computers - With Antennas!
|
N7RWB Craig Cherry
Angel Perez
Peter Laws
Jose Manuel ea8ee