Re: Measuring Phase with Agilent E5062A ENA
Well the airfield across the road is always ready
for you <g>. Do you know of any good HP or other source of
reading material that may describe POS PHASE & EXPANDED
PHASE etc ?
Gedas, W8BYA
Gallery at
Light travels faster than sound....
This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
On 11/17/2018 9:12 PM, Daun Yeagley
wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Indeed!
Yeah, unfortunately, the ENA won't do it.? Not sure if some of the
new ones will or not..... I've been retired too long!
Still have to get back up your way... maybe in the spring!
Daun
On 11/17/2018 9:06 PM, Gedas wrote:
Hi Daun....long time no chat. Yup understand
100% but was hoping that the ENA had a function to do that
for me. There are some "VNA's" that will do that for you. I
guess this one will not hi-hi.
Gedas, W8BYA
Gallery at
Light travels faster than sound....
This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
On 11/17/2018 8:54 PM, Daun Yeagley
wrote:
Gedas, what you are seeing is "phase wrap".? The detectors in
the VNA's can't resolve more than 360 degrees... 370 degrees
looks the same as 10 degrees!
The only way you can do it is to count how many "wraps" you
have, IF you can do it in a continuous sweep with no bridges
over the wraps.
Hope this gets you started in understanding that!
Daun
On 11/17/2018 8:45 PM, Gedas
wrote:
Can someone point me to some reading material to help me
understand how to measure phase on my ENA?
I have the operators manual but it is not at all helpful.
In short I chose a simple ~19" length RG-223 coaxial
jumper as a starting point to help me better understand my
instrument. I am having difficulty in getting the display
to show phase shifts great then 180 degrees even though
the Y-axis is indicating I have plenty of latitude, i.e.,
+/- 450 degrees etc.
I.e., below is a screen capture where I am showing the
phase shift thru that jumper at 104MHz.....back of the
napkin calculations show that in fact ~19" length of V.F.
0.66 cable should provide -90 degrees phase shift:
Things even work well when I double the frequency to 208
MHz and obtain a ~180 degree phase shift:
The issue is when I go slightly higher in frequency I
would like to display phase shifts great then? -180
degrees. As soon as I go higher in frequency the plot
jumps up to a positive 180 degree phase shift.
I would like to know if I can setup my ENA to display say
-270 or -400 degree phase shifts. I have been using PHASE
under the display options and do see options for POS
PHASE, & EXPANDED PHASE. I was hoping expanded phase
would do what I wanted but it did not. The manual does not
discuss how to use these formats.
Gedas, W8BYA
Gallery at
Light travels faster than sound....
This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
--
Daun E. Yeagley II, N8ASB
--
Daun E. Yeagley II, N8ASB
|
Re: Measuring Phase with Agilent E5062A ENA
Indeed!
Yeah, unfortunately, the ENA won't do it.? Not sure if some of the
new ones will or not..... I've been retired too long!
Still have to get back up your way... maybe in the spring!
Daun
On 11/17/2018 9:06 PM, Gedas wrote:
Hi Daun....long time no chat. Yup understand
100% but was hoping that the ENA had a function to do that for
me. There are some "VNA's" that will do that for you. I guess
this one will not hi-hi.
Gedas, W8BYA
Gallery at
Light travels faster than sound....
This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
On 11/17/2018 8:54 PM, Daun Yeagley
wrote:
Gedas, what you are seeing is "phase wrap".? The detectors in
the VNA's can't resolve more than 360 degrees... 370 degrees
looks the same as 10 degrees!
The only way you can do it is to count how many "wraps" you
have, IF you can do it in a continuous sweep with no bridges
over the wraps.
Hope this gets you started in understanding that!
Daun
On 11/17/2018 8:45 PM, Gedas wrote:
Can someone point me to some reading material to help me
understand how to measure phase on my ENA?
I have the operators manual but it is not at all helpful.
In short I chose a simple ~19" length RG-223 coaxial jumper
as a starting point to help me better understand my
instrument. I am having difficulty in getting the display to
show phase shifts great then 180 degrees even though the
Y-axis is indicating I have plenty of latitude, i.e., +/-
450 degrees etc.
I.e., below is a screen capture where I am showing the
phase shift thru that jumper at 104MHz.....back of the
napkin calculations show that in fact ~19" length of V.F.
0.66 cable should provide -90 degrees phase shift:
Things even work well when I double the frequency to 208
MHz and obtain a ~180 degree phase shift:
The issue is when I go slightly higher in frequency I would
like to display phase shifts great then? -180 degrees. As
soon as I go higher in frequency the plot jumps up to a
positive 180 degree phase shift.
I would like to know if I can setup my ENA to display say
-270 or -400 degree phase shifts. I have been using PHASE
under the display options and do see options for POS PHASE,
& EXPANDED PHASE. I was hoping expanded phase would do
what I wanted but it did not. The manual does not discuss
how to use these formats.
Gedas, W8BYA
Gallery at
Light travels faster than sound....
This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
--
Daun E. Yeagley II, N8ASB
--
Daun E. Yeagley II, N8ASB
|
Re: Measuring Phase with Agilent E5062A ENA
Hi Daun....long time no chat. Yup understand 100%
but was hoping that the ENA had a function to do that for me.
There are some "VNA's" that will do that for you. I guess this
one will not hi-hi.
Gedas, W8BYA
Gallery at
Light travels faster than sound....
This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
On 11/17/2018 8:54 PM, Daun Yeagley
wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Gedas, what you are seeing is "phase wrap".? The detectors in the
VNA's can't resolve more than 360 degrees... 370 degrees looks the
same as 10 degrees!
The only way you can do it is to count how many "wraps" you have,
IF you can do it in a continuous sweep with no bridges over the
wraps.
Hope this gets you started in understanding that!
Daun
On 11/17/2018 8:45 PM, Gedas wrote:
Can someone point me to some reading material to help me
understand how to measure phase on my ENA?
I have the operators manual but it is not at all helpful. In
short I chose a simple ~19" length RG-223 coaxial jumper as a
starting point to help me better understand my instrument. I
am having difficulty in getting the display to show phase
shifts great then 180 degrees even though the Y-axis is
indicating I have plenty of latitude, i.e., +/- 450 degrees
etc.
I.e., below is a screen capture where I am showing the phase
shift thru that jumper at 104MHz.....back of the napkin
calculations show that in fact ~19" length of V.F. 0.66 cable
should provide -90 degrees phase shift:
Things even work well when I double the frequency to 208 MHz
and obtain a ~180 degree phase shift:
The issue is when I go slightly higher in frequency I would
like to display phase shifts great then? -180 degrees. As soon
as I go higher in frequency the plot jumps up to a positive
180 degree phase shift.
I would like to know if I can setup my ENA to display say
-270 or -400 degree phase shifts. I have been using PHASE
under the display options and do see options for POS PHASE,
& EXPANDED PHASE. I was hoping expanded phase would do
what I wanted but it did not. The manual does not discuss how
to use these formats.
Gedas, W8BYA
Gallery at
Light travels faster than sound....
This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
--
Daun E. Yeagley II, N8ASB
|
Re: Measuring Phase with Agilent E5062A ENA
Gedas, what you are seeing is "phase wrap".? The detectors in the
VNA's can't resolve more than 360 degrees... 370 degrees looks the
same as 10 degrees!
The only way you can do it is to count how many "wraps" you have, IF
you can do it in a continuous sweep with no bridges over the wraps.
Hope this gets you started in understanding that!
Daun
On 11/17/2018 8:45 PM, Gedas wrote:
Can someone point me to some reading material to help me
understand how to measure phase on my ENA?
I have the operators manual but it is not at all helpful. In
short I chose a simple ~19" length RG-223 coaxial jumper as a
starting point to help me better understand my instrument. I am
having difficulty in getting the display to show phase shifts
great then 180 degrees even though the Y-axis is indicating I
have plenty of latitude, i.e., +/- 450 degrees etc.
I.e., below is a screen capture where I am showing the phase
shift thru that jumper at 104MHz.....back of the napkin
calculations show that in fact ~19" length of V.F. 0.66 cable
should provide -90 degrees phase shift:
Things even work well when I double the frequency to 208 MHz
and obtain a ~180 degree phase shift:
The issue is when I go slightly higher in frequency I would
like to display phase shifts great then? -180 degrees. As soon
as I go higher in frequency the plot jumps up to a positive 180
degree phase shift.
I would like to know if I can setup my ENA to display say -270
or -400 degree phase shifts. I have been using PHASE under the
display options and do see options for POS PHASE, & EXPANDED
PHASE. I was hoping expanded phase would do what I wanted but it
did not. The manual does not discuss how to use these formats.
Gedas, W8BYA
Gallery at
Light travels faster than sound....
This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
--
Daun E. Yeagley II, N8ASB
|
Measuring Phase with Agilent E5062A ENA
Can someone point me to some reading material to help me
understand how to measure phase on my ENA?
I have the operators manual but it is not at all helpful. In
short I chose a simple ~19" length RG-223 coaxial jumper as a
starting point to help me better understand my instrument. I am
having difficulty in getting the display to show phase shifts
great then 180 degrees even though the Y-axis is indicating I have
plenty of latitude, i.e., +/- 450 degrees etc.
I.e., below is a screen capture where I am showing the phase
shift thru that jumper at 104MHz.....back of the napkin
calculations show that in fact ~19" length of V.F. 0.66 cable
should provide -90 degrees phase shift:
Things even work well when I double the frequency to 208 MHz and
obtain a ~180 degree phase shift:
The issue is when I go slightly higher in frequency I would like
to display phase shifts great then? -180 degrees. As soon as I go
higher in frequency the plot jumps up to a positive 180 degree
phase shift.
I would like to know if I can setup my ENA to display say -270 or
-400 degree phase shifts. I have been using PHASE under the
display options and do see options for POS PHASE, & EXPANDED
PHASE. I was hoping expanded phase would do what I wanted but it
did not. The manual does not discuss how to use these formats.
Gedas, W8BYA
Gallery at
Light travels faster than sound....
This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
|
Re: Readings from 436A power meter using 82357B USB-GPIB?
Hi Staffan
Yes, you need to meter to be in addressable mode (or as you say,
"normal").
If you use the interactive IO, you would use the "Send and Read"..?
Type the command to fetch the reading in the text box, and use the
"Send and Read" button, which will set the computer as the talker,
send the command, and then it sets it up so the meter is the
talker.? You should see the results show up in the history below.?
It puts the actual results there, with no additional formatting so
you can see exactly what it sends back.? Of course you can also do
it individually using the separate "Send Command" and "Read
Response" as well. The "Send and Read" just combines the two
actions.
What language do you plan to use for your program?
Daun
On 11/17/2018 4:52 PM, Staffan wrote:
Hello,
Just got hold of an old HP436A power meter and would like to do
some automated measurements. Controlling the instrument is simple
using the 82357B USB-GPIB module (I can set range etc), but
reading data? As a first step I'd like to test using Agilent
Interactive IO from Connection Expert. If that works, I'm fairly
sure I can get it working in a program also.?
The 436 is set to NORMAL, i.e., not TALK ONLY. It does have the
HP-IB option 022 installed. My guess is that I need to address the
instrument to Talk in some other way than the "Read Response" used
in Interactive IO.
Anyone with experience of this?
Regards,
? Staffan
--
Daun E. Yeagley II, N8ASB
|
WANTED: HP 606B Sig Gen RF Output Attenuator Module A10
Needed to repair a 606B.
My preferred repair solution is to replace the faulty A10 attenuator module with a serviceable module.
The existing module has three coax cables hard-wired internally to it - input, output and cal output.
For identification purposes, I note the attenuator from the sig gen model 606A doesn't have the calibrator output connection, so is not a direct replacement.
Thanks for your help.
Graeme Dennes
Australia
|
Re: Issue with homemade diode power sensor for HP meters
Hi Tobias!?
Great experiment. Now add C2 & C3, c6,c7,c5 & c8.? These caps are part of the AC circuit and are used for balance in the autozero (C2 & C3). HP did not put in parts they did not need!
I have not studied the 436 input amp like you have, but would comment that the 220 Hz chopper frequency that switches Q1 & Q2 on/off alternatively needs to be accommodated in the bipolar AC amp. Also I note no source of DC for the bipolar to run on, it needs current from somewhere so it is getting it probably thru a negative bias on the emitter wrt the collector from the 436A otherwise how does the BJT work? In the emitter leg is a thermistor to compensate ambient mount temp. You have a pot there instead. I would think that you would want to adjust the detected voltage level before the FET gate circuit for calibration purposes.
I am sure the thermocouple arrangement produced a very small voltage.
I think a dead mount with your new input circuit is a great place to continue the experiment from. Re-use their carefully designed amplifier/fet gate circuit.
VBR & 73
Jeff Kruth
WA3ZKR
In a message dated 11/17/2018 12:49:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, tobias.pluess@... writes:
@Peter
thanks. Yes, exactly, the meters themselves are really cheap. I currently don't have access to some blown 8481A or similar sensors, so I cannibalized a sensor cable :-( because the connectors seem to be HP specific ones and are not available e.g. at Mouser or so.
But yes, as soon as I have a working circuit, I will it design such that it fits into the normal housing for those power sensors. I also thought of milling my own housing which would be similar to the original HP housing anyways.
The cool stuff is that Agilent and Keysight still use the same interface (at least for some power meters) as far as I know, so the sensor should work with any of those!
@Ed
?thanks also. Yes, I tried to study on the interface between the 436 and the power sensor. The resistor you are talking about is called the mount resistor in the 8481A manual. Here is the general schematic of this sensor:
The service manual tells which resistor value is used for the different ranges. I think it will be possible on the homemade sensor to add a little switch to change the mount resistor value and therefore the range the meter uses - such, the same sensor could be used for different power ranges. The 436A power ranges are very limited, as far as I remember.
However, what I don't understand in the interface between the meter and the sensor is how the autozero circuit works, and I am also a bit unsure about the working principle of the amplifier formed by Q1 in the sensor (see schematic) and the OpAmp in the meter. Do you know more details about how it works?
Best
Tobias HB9FSX
|
Re: A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters
Dr. David Kirkby from Kirkby Microwave Ltd
On Sat, 17 Nov 2018, 17:30 Peter Gottlieb < hpnpilot@... wrote: This is an interesting project.? As you say the meters themselves are dirt
cheap.? I have seen blown sensors sold cheap as well and maybe it's possible to
build your circuit into one of those which would have the advantage of
connectors and case already taken care of.? If a small inexpensive SM board is
made to do this it could easily fit and be so inexpensive that it wouldn't even
be worth the time to troubleshoot a failure, just replace the board if it gets
blown out.
Peter
The worrying thing is the Chinese counterfeiters will probably do just that. eBay seller yixunhk springs to mind - someone called them the HP rebirthing centre. I can see them "rebirthing" power sensors. ?
Dave
|
Re: A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters
Hi Tobias, I looked at the OP again, and realized that you already knew about the "mount" resistor - I didn't notice that the first time. I grabbed that 8484A manual pdf that Orin linked - thanks Orin, I have lots of 8484As, and the manual somewhere, but can never seem to find it. Now I have a fresh copy.
Anyway, after refreshing my memory on these sensors, and looking also at the 8481A schematic, I'd recommend studying both types - the TC and diode models have a different arrangement for the auto-zeroing function. The circuit you posted puts the AZ feedback to the detector, as in the 8481A TC circuit, but that won't work right. With the TC type, it is a low impedance source, so the AZ current can go through, and offset the signal. With a diode detector, you should use a circuit like in the 8484A, which applies it to the ground-side JFET switch in the chopper. The diode detector is a high impedance source, so you don't want to put the AZ feedback current there.
Good luck,
Ed
|
Readings from 436A power meter using 82357B USB-GPIB?
Hello,
Just got hold of an old HP436A power meter and would like to do some automated measurements. Controlling the instrument is simple using the 82357B USB-GPIB module (I can set range etc), but reading data? As a first step I'd like to test using Agilent Interactive IO from Connection Expert. If that works, I'm fairly sure I can get it working in a program also.?
The 436 is set to NORMAL, i.e., not TALK ONLY. It does have the HP-IB option 022 installed. My guess is that I need to address the instrument to Talk in some other way than the "Read Response" used in Interactive IO.
Anyone with experience of this?
Regards,
? Staffan
|
Re: A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters
Hi Robert,
yes, I have an extra diode. While the RF has negative polarity, the 3.3nF capacitor gets charged through the bottom diode. As soon as the RF has positive polarity, the top diode conducts, and the voltage across the 3.3nF capacitor adds to the RF voltage. So this detector works like a kind of charge pump, offering a higher output voltage at the same RF level. I hope to improve the sensitivity with this.
Concerning the terminator - yes I forgot to add a 50 Ohm resistor in my schematic. And, besides that, I used an external 6dB pad at the input, which I probably should have mentioned earlier. This improves return loss and definitely provides a DC path for the diodes.
Tobias
|
Re: A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters
Hi ,
it seems to me that q1 and q2 (FET) form an electronic key. then the capacitors must be there for the switch to work properly without switching aberrations. Already C7 and C8, possibly keep the input impedance controlled and prevent q1 (bjt) from oscillating.
Em s¨¢bado, 17 de novembro de 2018 17:49:59 BRST, Robert G8RPI via Groups.Io <robert8rpi@...> escreveu:
You seem to have an extra diode, no terminator and reversed polarity. The terminator is probably the issue.
The 11863A calibrator manuals may give some clues too.
Robert G8RPI.
|
Re: A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters
You seem to have an extra diode, no terminator and reversed polarity. The terminator is probably the issue.
The 11863A calibrator manuals may give some clues too.
Robert G8RPI.
|
Re: A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters
Orin beat me to it but BAMA also have a copy (with some the
change sheets) at:
I bought a box of a dozen dead 84xx sensors a while back for
about 60 USD, with much the same idea in mind but haven't got
round to it yet! I would happy to ship one over to you if it would
help?
Adrian
On 11/17/2018 7:19 PM, Tobias Pluess
wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Robert,
do you own a schematic of the diode sensors? The schematic
for the thermocouple sensors was hard enough to obtain. In the
current service manuals, there are of course no schematics at
all, and the HP journals of that time also don't show the actual
schematics of the sensors.
Tobias
Sent from
my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------
Date: 11/17/18 20:09 (GMT+01:00)
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] A homemade diode
power sensor for HP meters
Interesting project. The diagram you show is for the
Thermocouple "A" suffix sensor. While the principle and basic
circuit is the same for diode and thermocouple, the A2 PCB is
different so there must be a difference in the circuit. This may
be related to your offset issue.
Robert G8RPI.
|
Re: A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters
8484A diode sensor schematic is here...
Robert,
do you own a schematic of the diode sensors? The schematic for the thermocouple sensors was hard enough to obtain. In the current service manuals, there are of course no schematics at all, and the HP journals of that time also don't show the actual schematics
of the sensors.
Tobias
|
Re: A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters
Robert,
do you own a schematic of the diode sensors? The schematic for the thermocouple sensors was hard enough to obtain. In the current service manuals, there are of course no schematics at all, and the HP journals of that time also don't show the actual schematics
of the sensors.
Tobias
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-------- Original message --------
From: "Robert G8RPI via Groups.Io" <robert8rpi@...>
Date: 11/17/18 20:09 (GMT+01:00)
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters
Interesting project. The diagram you show is for the Thermocouple "A" suffix sensor. While the principle and basic circuit is the same for diode and thermocouple, the A2 PCB is different so there must be a difference in the circuit. This may be related
to your offset issue.
Robert G8RPI.
|
Re: A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters
Interesting project. The diagram you show is for the Thermocouple "A" suffix sensor. While the principle and basic circuit is the same for diode and thermocouple, the A2 PCB is different so there must be a difference in the circuit. This may be related to your offset issue.
Robert G8RPI.
|
Re: Yet another TG project
I have added a new picture, showing the low frequency end performance:
/g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/photo/78668/1?p=Name,,,20,1,0,0
The upper trace A is the TG output near 0 dBm, up to 1 kHz. The lower B trace is the stored maximum hold, with the TG output "OFF." The line spurs are artifacts due to ground loops in the experimental test and repair setups - I'm still working on the sweep-stopping issue, etc. In earlier tests before this came up, the TG exhibited no line/PS stuff at all - only the residual line noise of the 8568 was evident, about 10 dB lower than it looks here. It should be OK once everything is buttoned up properly.
The TG/SA arrangement exhibits nearly 100 dB dynamic range, and is at the limit of on-screen capability. The near-DC (f=0) response of the 8568 at the narrowest IFBW hits the noise floor by about 100 Hz, so it's fully usable from there up. The TG output is of course, coming from the low-band (~0-500 MHz) amplifier. The original, main amplifier rolls off below around 300 kHz, so is incapable of reaching the bottom end of the 8568's frequency range.
Ed
|
Re: A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters
@Peter
thanks. Yes, exactly, the meters themselves are really cheap. I currently don't have access to some blown 8481A or similar sensors, so I cannibalized a sensor cable :-( because the connectors seem to be HP specific ones and are not available e.g. at Mouser or so.
But yes, as soon as I have a working circuit, I will it design such that it fits into the normal housing for those power sensors. I also thought of milling my own housing which would be similar to the original HP housing anyways.
The cool stuff is that Agilent and Keysight still use the same interface (at least for some power meters) as far as I know, so the sensor should work with any of those!
@Ed
?thanks also. Yes, I tried to study on the interface between the 436 and the power sensor. The resistor you are talking about is called the mount resistor in the 8481A manual. Here is the general schematic of this sensor:
The service manual tells which resistor value is used for the different ranges. I think it will be possible on the homemade sensor to add a little switch to change the mount resistor value and therefore the range the meter uses - such, the same sensor could be used for different power ranges. The 436A power ranges are very limited, as far as I remember.
However, what I don't understand in the interface between the meter and the sensor is how the autozero circuit works, and I am also a bit unsure about the working principle of the amplifier formed by Q1 in the sensor (see schematic) and the OpAmp in the meter. Do you know more details about how it works?
Best
Tobias HB9FSX
|
