Some notes on D&H operations on
Conrail after Conveyance (April 1, 1976)
Conrail did not create Conrail. On April 1, 1976, Conrail began
operating a system that was created by USRA under the 3-R Act.
Most of the trackage rights arrangements on Conrail were set by
USRA with the agreement of the existing railroads that would
operated over Conrail. Some of those had been set in place in the
original planning, but The D&H was added late in the game when
Chessie System could not get the needed labor agreements to set up
a "competitive" proposed MARC-EL system. MARC-EL would have given
The D&H and the B&M non-Conrail connections to the west
and south, but when Chessie pulled out at the last minute, The
D&H had to do it themselves by operating on Conrail.
Except, a little known point The D&H negotiated an agreement
with the Lehigh Valley where LV actually conveyed operating rights
on its then-existing railroad between Oak Island, NJ and Waverly,
NY (EL connection) to The D&H. Those operating rights (not
technically trackage rights) conveyed with the operating property
of the LV Estate to Conrail, and Conrail was obligated to honor
them.
I first learned of this when Conrail petitioned to abandon the
original LV line between Allentown and Lehighton to concentrate
its operations on the former CNJ. The D&H exercised its
operating right on the former LV, and obtained some concessions
from Conrail in return for moving to the CNJ. Around that time,
The D&H was still operating a vestige of the LV Apollo TOFC
service between Oak Island and Buffalo, via former LV to Jenkins,
D&H over Ararat to Lanesboro Jct, and EL to Buffalo. That was
the long way around, and the Apollos (AP-1 and AP-2) never set any
speed records.
- Gordon Davids
On 1/23/2020 12:37 PM, century430 wrote:
Interestingly enough about the LV in far western NY, CR
did give some thought to retaining a segment of it as a
parallel main in the Batavia area I believe. That was stated
in the Final System Plan.
Jim
As far as the LV line from Buffalo to Sayre,
Conrail could not justify using the line as even a secondary
as there were no customers between Romulus and Van Ettan.
Therefore,? that part of the line was abandoned. The D&H
was given trackage rights on the old EL between Binghamton
and Buffalo.?
Jack Klapprodt
On Thu, Jan 23, 2020,
12:52 AM David Horree < dhorree@...>
wrote:
As Conrail was taking shape, I believe that
option was looked at and the reason the trackage rights
rout was taken was due to costs. If they were to take
over lets say the old LV between Buffalo and Sayre, new
agreements with labor would have to be negotiated, along
with being responsible for track maintenance and taxes
and purchase from whichever bankrupts estate. Running
via trackage rights none of that was a issue, just
whatever fee CR and D&H agreed upon. Remember,
D&H wasn't in great financial shape either in the
mid 70's, but at least they were solvent.
DTH
[Edited Message Follows]
I often wonder that instead of trackage rights if they
had received ownership to Buffalo, Allentown, Oak
Island, and maybe even Harrisburg, and they didn't
need to rely on Conrail traffic control if they would
have had better odds.? But then again, I guess once
you figure in track and ROW maintenance etc., maybe it
wouldn't have helped.? Obviously Conrail was set up
not to fail, so to add any type of real competition
for it would have been counterproductive.? D&H
probably would still have ended up under NS ownership
by now anyway.
?- Mark
--
Gordon A. Davids, P.E.
201 Marie Ave
Severna Park MD 21146-3210
g.davids .at. verizon.net
Home (410) 647-2956
Mobile (410) 279-7144
|
Interestingly enough about the LV in far western NY, CR did give some thought to retaining a segment of it as a parallel main in the Batavia area I believe. That was stated in the Final System Plan.
Jim
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As far as the LV line from Buffalo to Sayre, Conrail could not justify using the line as even a secondary as there were no customers between Romulus and Van Ettan. Therefore,? that part of the line was abandoned. The D&H was given trackage rights
on the old EL between Binghamton and Buffalo.?
Jack Klapprodt
On Thu, Jan 23, 2020, 12:52 AM David Horree < dhorree@...> wrote:
As Conrail was taking shape, I believe that option was looked at and the reason the trackage rights rout was taken was due to costs. If they were to take over lets say the old LV between Buffalo and Sayre, new agreements with labor would have
to be negotiated, along with being responsible for track maintenance and taxes and purchase from whichever bankrupts estate. Running via trackage rights none of that was a issue, just whatever fee CR and D&H agreed upon. Remember, D&H wasn't in great financial
shape either in the mid 70's, but at least they were solvent.
DTH
[Edited Message Follows]
I often wonder that instead of trackage rights if they had received ownership to Buffalo, Allentown, Oak Island, and maybe even Harrisburg, and they didn't need to rely on Conrail traffic control if they would have had better odds.? But then again, I guess
once you figure in track and ROW maintenance etc., maybe it wouldn't have helped.? Obviously Conrail was set up not to fail, so to add any type of real competition for it would have been counterproductive.? D&H probably would still have ended up under NS ownership
by now anyway.
?- Mark
|
As far as the LV line from Buffalo to Sayre, Conrail could not justify using the line as even a secondary as there were no customers between Romulus and Van Ettan. Therefore,? that part of the line was abandoned. The D&H was given trackage rights on the old EL between Binghamton and Buffalo.?
Jack Klapprodt
On Thu, Jan 23, 2020, 12:52 AM David Horree < dhorree@...> wrote: As Conrail was taking shape, I believe that option was looked at and the reason the trackage rights rout was taken was due to costs. If they were to take over lets say the old LV between Buffalo and Sayre, new agreements with labor would have to be negotiated, along with being responsible for track maintenance and taxes and purchase from whichever bankrupts estate. Running via trackage rights none of that was a issue, just whatever fee CR and D&H agreed upon. Remember, D&H wasn't in great financial shape either in the mid 70's, but at least they were solvent.
DTH
[Edited Message Follows]
I often wonder that instead of trackage rights if they had received ownership to Buffalo, Allentown, Oak Island, and maybe even Harrisburg, and they didn't need to rely on Conrail traffic control if they would have had better odds.? But then again, I guess once you figure in track and ROW maintenance etc., maybe it wouldn't have helped.? Obviously Conrail was set up not to fail, so to add any type of real competition for it would have been counterproductive.? D&H probably would still have ended up under NS ownership by now anyway.
?- Mark
|
Dick Cooper Time Book - 1967
9/10/67 RW6, power 5003-5013-5015-5016, local freight rate, marked on Rouses Point 9:45 PM, 15" final terminal delay, marked off Whitehall 6:15 AM, on duty 8:30, paid $28.72 for 118 miles, H.S. Lounsberry engineer, Cooper fireman.
--
Ed Cox
|
As Conrail was taking shape, I believe that option was looked at and the reason the trackage rights rout was taken was due to costs. If they were to take over lets say the old LV between Buffalo and Sayre, new agreements with labor would have to be negotiated, along with being responsible for track maintenance and taxes and purchase from whichever bankrupts estate. Running via trackage rights none of that was a issue, just whatever fee CR and D&H agreed upon. Remember, D&H wasn't in great financial shape either in the mid 70's, but at least they were solvent.
DTH
[Edited Message Follows]
I often wonder that instead of trackage rights if they had received ownership to Buffalo, Allentown, Oak Island, and maybe even Harrisburg, and they didn't need to rely on Conrail traffic control if they would have had better odds.? But then again, I guess once you figure in track and ROW maintenance etc., maybe it wouldn't have helped.? Obviously Conrail was set up not to fail, so to add any type of real competition for it would have been counterproductive.? D&H probably would still have ended up under NS ownership by now anyway.
?- Mark
|
Thanks very much!
That clears up any question.
?
Bill><>
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From: Gordon Davids via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 5:28 PM
Subject: Re: [DandH-Railroad] D&H Heritage
Unit
?
CP owns Delaware and Hudson Railway Company,
Inc.? CP sold that part of the D&H property and franchise south of
Schenectady to Norfolk Southern. The D&H as a railroad company is not a
component of NS.
?
- Gordon Davids
?
Doesn’t
Canadian Pacific still own the D&H name ?
? --
Gordon A. Davids, P.E.
201 Marie Ave
Severna Park MD 21146-3210
g.davids .at. verizon.net
Home (410) 647-2956
Mobile (410) 279-7144
|
CP owns Delaware and Hudson Railway
Company, Inc.? CP sold that part of the D&H property and
franchise south of Schenectady to Norfolk Southern. The D&H as
a railroad company is not a component of NS.
- Gordon Davids
Doesn’t Canadian Pacific still own the D&H name ?
--
Gordon A. Davids, P.E.
201 Marie Ave
Severna Park MD 21146-3210
g.davids .at. verizon.net
Home (410) 647-2956
Mobile (410) 279-7144
|
|
|
At 22/01/2020 10:52 AM (), you wrote: Does anyone know why NS did not paint up a heritage unit since they took over the old A&S seems fitting? They'd have to pay royalty fees to the Soo Line-CPR?
Bill><>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Gerry Burridge - PO Box 152 - Pte.Claire-Dorval, Que. - H9R 4N9 "Labour is prior to, and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labour, and could never have existed if Labour had not first existed. Labour is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration" --- Abraham Lincoln =========================================================
|
That could very well be the reason!!!
?
Thanks!
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Show quoted text
From: mmatt378@...
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: [DandH-Railroad] D&H Heritage
Unit
?
Doesn’t
Canadian Pacific still own the D&H name ?
|
Doesn’t Canadian Pacific still own the D&H name ?
|
Thanks!
?
Montreal River Bridge? ONR?
1996
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From: Al
Whalen
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 2:24 PM
Subject: Re: [DandH-Railroad] D
?
Lead unit rear headlight may be on due to incorrect or malfuntioning MU
control switches.? Each unit in a consist has to have the headlight MU
switch in the proper position (there are 4 choices) for the lights to be
controlled from the lead unit.? Many engineers have a habit of
intentionally or inadvertently leaving the rear headlight on at all times.?
It's just one of those things.? No rules require it.
?
Al
|
Lead unit rear headlight may be on due to incorrect or malfuntioning MU control switches.? Each unit in a consist has to have the headlight MU switch in the proper position (there are 4 choices) for the lights to be controlled from the lead unit.? Many engineers have a habit of intentionally or inadvertently leaving the rear headlight on at all times.? It's just one of those things.? No rules require it.
Al
|
Headlight is on because the engineer has his headlight control switch in the wrong position.?
?
SJW
?
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----- Original Message -----
From: Bill><> <madog@...>
Sent: 01/22/20 08:52:30
Subject: [DandH-Railroad] D&H Heritage Unit
Does anyone know why NS did not paint up a heritage unit since they took over the old A&S seems fitting?
?
Bill><>
?
2015? the old signal mast at 480, would also like to know why the rear headlight is on 6752?
? 
|
Ray,
From what I understand, there were some component roads that had a heritage scheme designed, but not implemented. This was the case for the New Haven and likely the L&HR. When you look at the portions of those systems that actually were in service under
NS, it made sense. The only portion of the NH that NS operated was the very small segment from Campbell Hall to just outside of Maybrook...maybe 6 miles.? L&HR operated by NS was also extremely short, maybe 20 miles. They couldn't paint an engine for every
component road they had, and it makes sense that smaller roads weren't done.?
Jim Rowland
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For that matter, the question remains as to why NS never painted up a heritage unit for the Lehigh & Hudson River Rwy,
which of course they took over from Warwick to Maybrook, cut back to the new Hudson Jct (between East Hall and
Burnside), but I've never read nor heard anyone ever mention this.
Ray
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill><> <madog@...>
To: DandH io < [email protected]>
Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2020 10:52 am
Subject: [DandH-Railroad] D&H Heritage Unit
Does anyone know why NS did not paint up a heritage unit since they took over the old A&S seems fitting?
?
Bill><>
?
2015? the old signal mast at 480, would also like to know why the rear headlight is on 6752?
?
![5-19-15 480 old signals]( "5-19-15 480 old signals")
|
For that matter, the question remains as to why NS never painted up a heritage unit for the Lehigh & Hudson River Rwy,
which of course they took over from Warwick to Maybrook, cut back to the new Hudson Jct (between East Hall and
Burnside), but I've never read nor heard anyone ever mention this.
Ray
-----Original Message----- From: Bill><> <madog@...> To: DandH io < [email protected]> Sent: Wed, Jan 22, 2020 10:52 am Subject: [DandH-Railroad] D&H Heritage Unit
Does anyone know why NS did not paint up a heritage unit since they took
over the old A&S seems fitting?
?
Bill><>
?
2015? the old signal mast at 480, would also like to know why the rear
headlight is on 6752?
? ![5-19-15 480 old signals]( "5-19-15 480 old signals")
|
Does anyone know why NS did not paint up a heritage unit since they took
over the old A&S seems fitting?
?
Bill><>
?
2015? the old signal mast at 480, would also like to know why the rear
headlight is on 6752?
? 
|
Dick Cooper Time Book - with E.B. King
3/1/55 SC14 to WE & Ausable, power 4037, yard rate, marked on Plattsburgh 1:45 PM, marked off Plattsburgh 7:35 PM, on duty 5:50, paid $15.51 for 100 miles, E.B. King engineer, Cooper fireman.
--
Ed Cox
|
Dick Cooper Time Book - D&H Steam
1/16/52 #205, power P class 4-6-2 609, passenger rate, marked on Binghamton 6:25 AM, marked off Colonie 12:20 PM, on duty 5:55, paid $16.64 for 149 miles, Nastke engineer, Cooper fireman.
--
Ed Cox
|
I often wonder that instead of trackage rights if they had received ownership to Buffalo, Allentown, Oak Island, and maybe even Harrisburg, and they didn't need to rely on Conrail traffic control if they would have had better odds.? But then again, I guess once you figure in track and ROW maintenance etc., maybe it wouldn't have helped.? Obviously Conrail was set up not to fail, so to add any type of real competition for it would have been counterproductive.? D&H probably would still have ended up under NS ownership by now anyway.
?- Mark
|
Ed Cox
Bill><>
Scott J. Whitney