I also have a 15 yr old and a 17 yr old, and one of them is extrovert and has high emotional reactivity and struggled with rage and jealousy and feeling powerless when young.

I’d have said most of what Kate and Cara did, but as it’s been so clearly said, I’ll add a few more things I’ve done and found helpful..

• It can help to look into highly sensitive extroverts and what their needs are - is your daughter getting overstimulated, or overwhelmed, even by things you might not be noticing, or wouldn’t even register as a problem?

• It can help to look into highly emotionally reactive folk and learn what helps them regulate their nervous system when they can’t do it themselves. Knowing how to co-regulate another person who’s losing it is real service of the heart, whatever their age, if safe for you. And at 4, I feel it’s most likely safe for you?

• It can help to think about the slights your daughter might be experiencing that you haven’t noticed.. slights by you towards her, and hurts or slights from her brother to her. If she’s feeling slighted, disappointed, rejected, experiencing injustice as she sees it.. and then sees her brother get your time and attention and care while she perhaps thinks he doesn’t deserve it or that she deserves it herself as a balancing of what she’s been experiencing, that could flip her switch in the blink of an eye.

Even if you are giving her time beforehand, or are trying to treat her like her brother, unless you’re addressing the real ‘thing’ for her so she feels seen and understood, it’s unlikely she will be able to regulate herself when she’s triggered.

I would recommend you don’t shush her/shut her down too quick, try to ignore or distract her, deflect her feelings, or physically restrain her if at all possible. If that was done to me when I was emotionally dysregulated, I’d imagine the hurt in me would be compounded and the rage fuelled even more until the cumulative rage and hurt were like a volcano erupting with little to no way to stop it or to be reasoned with because it’s too late by then.?

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And then all I’d be left with was the thought of how unloveable I was and how shameful my (uncontrollable) behaviour was. And that would be added to the emotional pile inside of me I was already struggling with.


Sometimes kids need boundaries in the moment (we don’t spit at each other here), sometimes they really need kindness, empathy, and understanding.

The one thing I didn’t hear in what you shared, that Cara mentioned, but I think it’s so important I’m repeating it, is empathy. Empathy and validation are powerful soothers and can help her, even at 4, to slow down, feel seen, understood, cared about, and so have a better chance of managing herself over time. And, as others have said, she won’t be 4 forever.

Empathy and validation don’t include explaining what her brother needs, or what you want, or why what she wants is wrong, or rationalising anything that’s happening. That can come later when she’s regulated again. Active listening skills can help, also something like Non-Violent Communication as long as you don’t end up swamping her with words. She sounds like the less words the better by the time she’s hit the point of blowing up. But maybe more listening earlier?

I would not only empathise with the huge feelings and validate them as making sense to you given that she… whatever her reason is or what she tells you it is (even if you don’t personally agree that is a valid reason for you).. but I’d also reassure her that you’re not going to leave her alone/abandon her with such huge feelings. That such huge feelings can be too much for a 4 yr old to deal with all on their own and so you’ll stay with her and keep her safe while she feels them all. And then wait. See if she needs a cool damp facecloth to wipe her face, or a glass of water, or a blanket, or whatever makes the most sense to you.

It can also help to look for games or books that teach you DBT skills (dialectical behaviour therapy) for little ones and try playing with her when she is calm and help her develop those skills during play by repeating them often and then explaining while everything is calm and you’re connected, when it could be good to use them. The more she practices them, the better she’ll be able to reach for them in the very moment she needs them.

If she’s behaving like that, she (something inside of her) has a very good reason for it. And is doing the best it can with whatever it knows, to keep her safe or to help her get the love or attention she needs right there and then. If she is very different from you (and everyone in the family, as you described), it can not only be very overwhelming for all of you (and maybe even be breeding resentment), but it can also be very hard to see what that something in her could be or what its ultimately benevolent goal is despite it’s challenging ‘not terribly good strategy’ to get her there!

Puppet play with soft toys can help (or working with a play specialist).


And I remember that Lawrence Cohen’s book Playful Parenting had loads of power games you can play with kids to help them restore their sense of power and autonomy (but you do need to play to the end once you start or you just compound the problem, so don’t start a power game unless you have all the time you both need to complete it and she lets you know when it’s completed).



That’s all I have off the top of my head.


I managed to do some of these things when my kids were little. I also failed in a number of ways and had to restore balance when my kids were a lot older and able to tell me all the ways I had failed them. Learning about nervous system regulation, DBT skills, leading with empathy, allowing them to process their memories over and over and simply hearing them, empathising and validating their experience, apologising, and sharing ways I would do better (and then doing better), did wonders for us.


I’d have liked to know more about these skills and topics earlier.. for them, but also for me because these have been my own struggles too and have changed my life, learning them and using them (and being able to explain what I needed to loved ones who also didn’t understand or know what to do to help me stabilise more easily).

I hope that something in this reply can help you, your daughter, and the rest of your family.

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Natalie?

Hi Lollizah,

I’ve been reading and learning from this wonderful group for many years, but this is my first post. My kids are older now (17 and 15), but here are my thoughts.

The simple things, like who she wants to sit next to at dinner, might be great opportunities to loan her some of your power. Young kids have very little power to control their lives, so as an adult with much more power, you can share some of yours with her by allowing her to control things that are safe and reasonable. Arrange the chairs however she likes, make a game out of it (she could play “duck duck goose” behind the chairs to show who she wants to sit next to, or musical chairs and she stops the music). Share your creativity and power to show her there are so many little ways to make things better and easier.

I’m also wondering if the super angry outbursts (i.e. spitting and hitting) come immediately, or is there a ramp-up? In my personal experience, people usually turn up the volume only when they don’t feel heard. When my kids were very young they would usually start softly with a request, then escalate if I was busy with something else. By the time they were hitting and spitting, it “felt” to me like it had come out of nowhere, when in reality they had been asking in many different ways and slowly ramping up the volume of the requests. So, maybe looking for cues and paying attention earlier, also looking for things like hunger and fatigue that can exacerbate emotional responses. She might also be asking in ways that don’t seem like asking to you, like playfully poking her dad, or a grumpy face, to indicate she doesn’t like the seating arrangement.

I also found it very helpful to empathize and reflect when my kids were super angry. Reflecting, “Wow, I can see how angry you are!” lets them know that you see them. It can be scary to feel out-of-control anger, so it’s important to have someone let you know that it’s OK, this is normal, it will pass soon, I’m here with you. Validating is also important. Try to understand why she is so upset, then reflect that to her: “It is SO frustrating when…”.

It’s also important for kids to have models of what healthy anger expression looks like. You mentioned that she is more emotionally expressive than the rest of your family, so she might not know what to do with her huge feelings. Anger can come with incredible energy that needs somewhere to go. It might help if you could be more open with your own process around anger, so she can see you being angry and what you do with it. In addition to the other helpful tips that were offered about what to do with anger, maybe have some crayons and paper for her to furiously scribble angry colors or playdough to angrily smoosh around. Also, grounding techniques might be helpful - i.e. holding ice, having different textures for her to feel, hide a stuffed animal she has to look for, etc.

When my kids were young and they were really angry, any attempt I made to control, calm, or soothe ended up backfiring and making them feel powerless, thus even more angry. What helped was when I “joined them” and saw their anger and frustration and helped give it a voice and give them tools to move through it. Learning about emotional expression is messy and uncomfortable. Having the time and space for this is one of the best parts of unschooling.

Finally, orchestrate times for you and your son to spend time together. Schedule a regular time for your daughter to go to the park with her dad, or go to a playdate, or take her to a sitter to have a pedicure and special playtime. Make it a fun time that your daughter looks forward to, and lets your son know he can count on that regular time with you. If it’s easier for your daughter, try having her stay home with a sitter or dad, while you and your son play chess at a local coffee shop, park, or library.

Also maybe try scheduling regular one-on-one time with your daughter, so you have a special date to do just what she wants, especially since she is feeling jealousy at this stage. Kids that age seem to need all of our attention all of the time. Showing them how special they are, while finding ways to soften the impact of the times we are unavailable, can be helpful.

I wish I could go back to when my kids were 4, with what I know now, but I’m not sure I’d have the energy! I kept learning and growing along the way, so did my kids, and now we’re in a pretty sweet place.

Cara

Yes, getting out with just the older child when possible.? Although having someone come take out the younger child works too, and sometimes even just putting on music in the car and driving everyone around can change the mood or lead to a younger kid napping.?

On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 08:42 AM, Katie Robles wrote:

What helps me is remembering that five years is MUCH easier, trying to help him get enough sleep, enough big muscle playing

Katie, thanks.? You meant take the older kid and leave the house with just him, right?? :-)

Sometimes I didn't have the dad to stay home, and leaving the house (with everyone) could still break an impasse and change a mood.

Where I am, it's super cold this week.? I know there? are people here from other hemispheres, and more equatorial places, but when it's cold enough, "big muscle playing" can be difficult too.? We're planning to take some of our grandkids to a big museum that's "too old" for them, in general, mostly to give them space to move, stairs to climb, in a warm place that's not our same old house.

I have a collection (not that I wrote, but that I'm hosting :-) ) of large-muscle activities for indoors:

It will work on a phone, now.? (For years it was wide and 'decorative.')

Sandra

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Four is a really intense age.? My fifth child is currently four years old.? What helps me is remembering that five years is MUCH easier, trying to help him get enough sleep, enough big muscle playing, and then setting up situations to be as pleasant as possible for everyone ahead of time as I can.??

开云体育

Lollizah, I'm sorry people are so busy, or not using e-mail anymore, or whatever it is.? I wish you could get a shower of help instead of just the little watering can I had.?

I hope things are already better, somehow, and that someone will see this and respond with other ideas!? :-)

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Sandra

My 4 yr old DD is delightfully dramatic, excited about life, and open about her moment to moment feelings.
This is completely opposite of her dad, 11yr old brother and myself. Which makes it a joyful wonder to us.
It also perplexes us when the feelings are jealousy and rage. She can't keep it together and she tries to hurt the offending person/animal. For instance, at dinner she may not want her dad to sit by her, she so will spit at him. My response is to remove her from the table and either take her outside where she can freely spit and scream and release the anger. Or if she doesn't want to do that, I will sit at the couch with her until she calms down. Lately, she doesn't want to go in to an alternate space, she tries to hit, spit, and jump on whomever she is upset at. I physically restrain her, as gently as I can, to keep her from hurting anyone.
Understandably, this further enrages her and it takes the whole mealtime to calm down.
Another example is in regards to jealousy of my DS. He and I play chess together at the table and my DD climbs up on to one of us and tries to take the pieces or clear the board off the table. When we stop the game because of the interference, my son feels upset at being pushed aside because of his sister. I have tried incorporating her into the game: setting up the board, moving the pieces for me, etc. But she says she doesn't want me to play with him at all.
This is just a recent example. Something similar happens when I spend time with DS or even the dogs.
Things I have tried:
-Playing with her first to fill her attention bucket
-Waiting until she is asleep (it is late and my sleepiness frustrates my son- he feels like he's getting my leftover time)
-Teaching her to play so she can have a real turn (she doesn't want to /possibly can't yet learn)
-Distracting her with tablet, show, playing with Dad. No joy there.
Any ideas? What am I missing?

On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 05:32 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

THANK YOU!? ? I will pass the hat again next year

If I'm personally unable to ask, I pass the hat (for storage, for future use) on to these there:? Holly Dodd, Marta Venturini Machado, and Vlad Gurdiga.? If I can't ask for help, maybe one of them will, to keep this group and SandraDodd.com visible (and functional, to whatever extent possible :-) ).

It's possible I'll be around to beg in October for many more years.? If so, I will do it myself!

Happy Halloween, or whichever is the next do-something day coming along for your family.

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Sandra

Here are the complaints and questions about that page. :-)??

I'm off track from discussing how unschooling works, in a way, but not (in another way).? ALL information came from somewhere (sometimes out of someones nether regions or imagination), and the real learning and knowledge doesn't come from hearing and repeating, but in looking and asking, thinking, following trails back to sources, questioning, wondering about it, checking back.??

#1, for unschooling that summary is Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.

#2, for that wikipedia page, if Nigeria is argued off it's spot, then the UK is back up to #5.

Of those top spots as it currently stands, U.S., India, Pakistan, Nigeria and Phillippines, the U.S. "did" the Phillippines, but England did the rest.? It's an interesting effect of colonization (a word much misused and abused this year) that the parent country or language will complain about a new variant (or accent, or choices of spellings, or use of commas :-) ).??

A tipping point came when Asian countries preferred American or Canadian English to British, in visiting teachers, or authors of instructional materials, at least in South Korea, but maybe other countries to different degrees at different times.?

I love this stuff.? Sorry to bore those who don't (who already quit reading; that's fine :-) )

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Sandra

The surprise might be in figuring out how the “greatest number of English speakers” can be calculated.

Considering how many people are living in India, versus in the UK (or NZ / OZ), it makes sense to me that they’d have the largest number.

Is there also a statistic showing the percentage of the population that speaks English? That might be higher in UK and lower in India?

Amber

So I'm updating this page, today, and...

Wait.? First, maybe stop reading and come back to it.? Before you get to the end, think about what countries you think/assume have the greatest number of Engish speakers (as a first or second language).? If you live where most or lots of people speak English, think of where your country might be on an ordered list.??
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So I'm updating this page, today, and...

Lots of my stories start that way now. :-)? Years back, if I created a new page it was probably because there had been an epiphany expressed in a discussion, and I didn't have a page to put it on, or there had been a rip-roaring argument in a discussion, and those tend to inspire the writers to WRITE. :-)? But now, it's routine maintenance, most times.

Surprise yet to come; hang on.

The Robin Hood quote I brought here about food, I ended up putting on an obscure page of mine called .? I put it there because the word "content" in that quote has the emphases on the second syllable.? For contrast, I put Bo Burnham's brief bit (from his special "Inside") called "Content" (emphasis on the first syllable).? That's at SandraDodd.com/nounverb

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THE SURPRISE:

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India has over three times as many English speakers as the United Kingdom has. The UK is #6?, behind the U.S., India, Pakistan, Nigeria and The Phillippines. (The details and disclaimers on that page are fun.)

I checked to make sure that link still worked.?My page used to say the UK was #5 on the list, but the link DID work, and the UK had been downgraded to #6, by the addition of Pakistan.

Canada and Australia aren't even in the top ten.??

New Zealand is listed after Singapore, but looking at the numbers, I think those two have switched places (or someone updated numbers), and perhaps the table that's there is static, rather than set up to sort by a particular field.? So NZ should be up one, seems to me.

Sandra (lover of English, lover of trivia, big fan of the UK and amused)

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开云体育

Thank you for this reminder! I still find myself falling into reacting from my own wounds around food. I need to read this every day to keep me grounded in it.

If this is garbled, it's all at the top of my "Eating in Peace" page, but I've added something new, today, from The Merry Adventures of Robin Hood.

(changed my plan; edited the page because it was junky with code.)

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My husband is good with understanding math concepts too.? Watching him, and then seeing how the kids pick up ideas and play with them has helped me recover from my own ideas about what I thought math was.?

Last week my 13 year old was telling me about the Halloween events in her favorite games on Roblox, and then she explained how she was collecting in-game candy to buy special event items that she would then trade for items she wanted that required actual currency.? She walked me through her mental calculations of how much she would need to collect, converting it from the in-game currency value to dollar value, and how to determine what trades were at a profit and which were break even or bad trades also considering the time she had put into collecting.?

This week she is mostly sitting on the trampoline in the sunshine listening to audiobooks.? We're in Texas, so it's the first time in months it's not too hot.

TWO THINGS:

Thank you for the donations, all!? About 20 people have donated, and that will cover everything for the year, even the last straggles of photo storage (almost all has been moved to my site, gradually, as it's found).? ? THANK YOU!? ? I will pass the hat again next year.??

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THE OTHER THING:

I responded to Katie, about learning, but it went over here:??/g/AlwaysLearning/topic/94571938#78930

Sandra, in Albuquerque :-)


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(If this doesn't look like Sandra Dodd's e-mail, it is one.? "AElflaed" is my medieval-studies/SCA name.)

I forgot that changing the subject line creates a new topic.? This forum sorts by words, not by a numerical code for a topic.? :-)

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I called Holly to ask for a second example, because I could only think of "outhouse."? She said "sweetheart," and asked what I was writing.? I said it was about kids learning things in their own unique way and gaining confidence from it.? She started talking about math, which is much easier for her than for me, and she gets artsy ideas, too, and sees patterns very quickly, about ages, and dates, and years and such.? ?Her dad was always quick with patterns and math, and studied math and engineering and computers but Holly is quicker and braver.? She always could go off road, as it were, with math, without a thought. :-)

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Sandra