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Re: fldigi psk waveform dropping samples? #fldigi #fldigi-parameters

 
Edited

Rich,
?
I took your suggestion and used File -> Audio -> TX generate to capture the waveform output.? ?I don't see any dropped samples or glitches in the TX generated output even when I see them in the SIG display using Tune.? I took the derivative of the captured waveform to make glitches or dropped samples easier to see.? ?So perhaps the waveform that is seen in the SIG display and the spectrum scope display of of fldigi is not the waveform that is sent to the transceiver.? ?But how do we really know which one is actually the one that is sent to the transceiver?
?
Curt
?
Re: fldigi psk waveform dropping samples? #fldigi #fldigi-parameters

 

Yep. Depends on why you are performing whatever test...
I often set up 2 or more systems to test some interoperability, and I don't want all that RF floating around. So I use hardwired systems.
But I also want something predictable, and hitting Tune gives me that. So if I want to use an independent scope, I can make sense of the waveform.
Then I can move on to send and receive tests and testing more of fl_suite, such as flmsg.

***We need to leave on the table the possibility that the artifact you are referencing in the images is ~not~ part of the output audio stream, but rather is an artifact of the fldigi display system.

To see this,
1. Set center freq to 500 Hz. Select SIG.
2. Select psk31.
3. Hit Tune, and observe waveform. Turn it off.
4. Toggle T/R. Note whether the waveform...now a composite waveform based on the modem, and ~not~ a simple sine wave at a the "center" freq...has an artifact. Keeping an eye on the SIG display, toggle T/R off. At the instant fldigi stops "transmitting nothing" using the selected modem, there will likely be a brief display of the "center" freq. If the artifact is at the same place, then it is occurring at a place in time based on the start of the SIG sweep, not the construction of the modem signal.

73 Rich NE1EE
The Dusty Key
On the banks of the Piscataqua

On 2024-09-12 20:00:, Curt Karnstedt wrote:
On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 06:40 PM, Rich NE1EE wrote:
The picture of the signal scope is just transmit with no on data going out, while the spectrums are showing sending data.

Here I assume you mean that you hit TX with no data, while I usually test by hitting Tune.

I see. I hit T/R with no characters in the blue transmit data window to get that SIG image.
Re: fldigi psk waveform dropping samples? #fldigi #fldigi-parameters

 

Anybody else see dropped samples like Rich has seen?? Dave's waveform at 500 Hz doesn't have these.
Re: fldigi psk waveform dropping samples? #fldigi #fldigi-parameters

 
Edited

On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 06:40 PM, Rich NE1EE wrote:
The picture of the signal scope is just transmit with no on data going out, while the spectrums are showing sending data.
Here I assume you mean that you hit TX with no data, while I usually test by hitting Tune.
I hit T/R with no characters in the blue transmit data window to get that SIG image, outputting a waveform where the phase alternates every 31.25 Hz.? ?I see that TUNE outputs out a sine wave at the "center frequency" (500 Hz).
Re: fldigi psk waveform dropping samples? #fldigi #fldigi-parameters

 

Thanks for clarifying. I have seen the dropped bits with many fldigi modems. I don't know why they occur. There are several possibilities related to threading and OS not being real time. I find the signal error is usually in the same place for a set of circumstances, but does move around depending on the modem of choice and the waterfall "center freq".

Keep in mind that you are looking at what fldigi thinks it is sending the CODEC, so the SIG, FFT, and waterfall all have naught to do with anything further downstream...AFAIK. I don't think fldigi looks at the device, looks at its digitization freq (mine is set at 48kHz), and then creates a signal. I ~imagine~ that fldigi simply creates a digitized version of the sine wave it needs (actually combining them for more complex signals) and sends that to a CODEC. The CODEC takes the wave and samples it at the rate defined in the device table (Sound settings, in Windows), and sends that sampled signal to the next device. Someone on the dev team will need to correct me on that.

BTW, I also use 500 Hz or so for my "testing" when I want to look at signals.

As for the spectral artifacts...those audio sideband artifacts...good question. I assume that the SIG display and the FFT display show exactly what fldigi is producing. And there are all those "sidebands". I don't know the method or algorithm. "Filtering" an audio signal in real time is expensive. We all don't have spare FPGAs floating around our laptops. :-) So if the method for producing the signal produces audio side tones, they are transmitted. The question is...to what end? On the RX end, fldigi uses an FFT to find the real data in all the noise, so those very low signals don't "make the cut", so to speak, and don't figure into the final data for decoding what freq was the important freq. And people aren't really listening to the sidebands, are they? Even when we listen to the TX audio at the fldigi end, we focus on the part of the signal that is much "louder" than the sidebands.

We are used to thinking that the sounds are all clean audio but they aren't. If I play a piano, theoretically I can get a pure note (not IRL), but the instant I send that to a digitizing process, I change it. I have audio samples here that were recorded with NO digitizing, and the same signal sent in parallel to very expensive digitizing equipment. I can hear the difference. fldigi, the new DSP radios...they all are creating artifacts, and we just ignore them, often because we are so thrilled with what the digitizing is doing for us, such as filtering out "noise". The only way you are going to get signals without artifacts is by using analog all the way from your voice to the antenna...oops...we hams all know that's not true, right? Otherwise, why do we have an FCC spec on transmitted bandwidth? We have it because the instant we combine the audio stream with the carrier, we produce sidebands.

On 2024-09-12 16:54:, Curt Karnstedt wrote:
And when I say "carrier", I mean center frequency, understanding that no carrier is present.
Got it.

The picture of the signal scope is just transmit with no on data going out, while the spectrums are showing sending data.
Here I assume you mean that you hit TX with no data, while I usually test by hitting Tune.

73 Rich
Re: fldigi psk waveform dropping samples? #fldigi #fldigi-parameters

 
Edited

Thanks Rich.? I understand that what I am seeing is what fldigi intends to send, and that's why I am asking about this -- I am trying to figure out if what fldigi intends to send has more spectral artifacts than desired before it even gets to the radio.? ?I indicated that it is not connected a radio to rule out the possibility that there being some sort of sample rate incompatibility with the virtual audio connection.? And when I say "carrier", I mean center frequency, understanding that no carrier is present.? The picture of the signal scope is just transmit with no on data going out, while the spectrums are showing sending data.
Re: fldigi psk waveform dropping samples? #fldigi #fldigi-parameters

 

The "dropped samples" even occur for multiples of 31.25 Hz.? Here's 500 Hz:
?
Re: fldigi psk waveform dropping samples? #fldigi #fldigi-parameters

 

Hi Curt,
A couple of comments come to mind. Bear in mind, these are based on my understanding of fldigi...I'm not a dev.

1.
The picture below is with no transceiver connected -- only the output of fldigi affecting the waterfall:
...but that is always the case. fldigi can't sample what the radio is sending for several reasons. So the fldigi TX audio stream is limited to just what fldigi ~intends~ to send. In fact, fldigi can't tell what the CODEC is sending to the next device downstream. It might be some piece of hardware, such as digirig, and it might be going directly to a radio. fldigi doesn't know. So for output, what you see on the waterfall is what fldigi has composed to send.

2. What psk? Is this just a Tune tone ? Remember...this is what is sent to the radio, so there is no carrier in play here.

3.
harmonics (low level though, <-60dbc ) far away from the carrier in the waterfall when I transmit.
It looks like you are showing us the SIG display. You will see the harmonics on the FFT display. Remember, fldigi composes the waveforms digitally. Someone else will have to ring in with the details. But IRL, the audio stream consists of fldigi composing a waveform at some freq (here I mean the sampling freq, not the waterfall freq), then the CODEC in play (you mention a CODEC with "native" sampling rates; I use 48000)...those 2 will create a complex wave with an approximation of the envelope you want for the chosen modem...then any intermediate devices, and finally the radio (which I understand is not in play here).

73 Rich
Re: fldigi psk waveform dropping samples? #fldigi #fldigi-parameters

 

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Sample rate conversion artifact.? Try setting the center frequency of the bpsk31 signal to 500.



David

On 9/12/24 13:34, Curt Karnstedt wrote:

?
Years ago I used fldigi under linux but recently wanted to try it under windows.? I was not expecting harmonics (low level though, <-60dbc ) far away from the carrier in the waterfall when I transmit.? ?The picture below is with no transceiver connected -- only the output of fldigi affecting the waterfall:
?
When I look at the waveform, I notice a regular notch in the envelope (see below).? ?Has anybody else seen this?? I have the soundcard sample rates set to "native".
?
?
Thanks,
Curt
fldigi psk waveform dropping samples? #fldigi #fldigi-parameters

 

?
Years ago I used fldigi under linux but recently wanted to try it under windows.? I was not expecting harmonics (low level though, <-60dbc ) far away from the carrier in the waterfall when I transmit.? ?The picture below is with no transceiver connected -- only the output of fldigi affecting the waterfall:
?
When I look at the waveform, I notice a regular notch in the envelope (see below).? ?Has anybody else seen this?? I have the soundcard sample rates set to "native".
?
?
Thanks,
Curt
Re: Rec ID

Cliff
 

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Some stations do if they really are looking for contacts. There are settings in fldigi to tell it if you want to jump to the station freq or just be notified of if and what the mode is.

73,
Cliff, AE5ZA



On Sep 10, 2024, at 05:29, Ridge via <kb2hwl@...> wrote:

Does everyone use the Rec Id tab.
my unit does not move when listen to stations, so I can¡¯t copy. Not good at knowing the tones yet.
thank you?
Rec ID

 

Does everyone use the Rec Id tab.
my unit does not move when listen to stations, so I can¡¯t copy. Not good at knowing the tones yet.
thank you?
Re: FLRIG OK, FLDIGI quit working?

Cliff
 

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Hmmm... To delete all the files just delete the fldigi.files directory. Fldigi does not use any files outside that directory unless you have specifically told it to do so and that would be configured by settings within the fldigi.files directory.

73,
Cliff, AE5ZA



On Sep 9, 2024, at 15:15, Jay W6CJ via <lastradioman@...> wrote:

Cliff,
Thanks.? Tried those and the mouse cursor/screen froze.
I'd like to delete all of FLDIGI files (wherever they may be in Win-11), and start with a clean install.
73
Jay

On Mon, Sep 9, 2024 at 12:17?PM Cliff <ae5zaham_at_gmail.com_lastradioman@...> wrote:
DuckDuckGo?did not detect any?trackers.?
Unable to verify sender identity
?
Jay,

Could be a corrupted fldigi config file.

You can test for that by going to c:\Users\<loginname>\fldigi.files and rename the flidigi.prefs file then try to start fldigi. If that works then you're good to go. If not then rename the fldigi_def.xml file in the same directory. That will cause you to need to setup fldigi from scratch. Just do a basic minimal setup then close fldigi and restart it. If it's ok then finish reconfiguring fldigi. You'll still have macros, logs, etc from the old config. It that doesn't solve the issue then go back and delete the newly created fldigi_def.xml file and rename the old one back to fldigi_def.xml to restore the old config.

73,
Cliff, AE5ZA



On Sep 9, 2024, at 11:15, Jay W6CJ via?groups.io?<lastradioman@...> wrote:

Hi Group,

Had something unusual happen:
I had FLRIG-FLDIGI working just fine with an IC-7300.
Yesterday, FLRIG seemed OK, but FLDIGI pops up for two seconds and then disappears.??

Any suggestions?

Thanks&73,
Jay
W6CJ
Re: FLRIG OK, FLDIGI quit working?

 

Cliff,
Thanks.? Tried those and the mouse cursor/screen froze.
I'd like to delete all of FLDIGI files (wherever they may be in Win-11), and start with a clean install.
73
Jay

On Mon, Sep 9, 2024 at 12:17?PM Cliff <ae5zaham_at_gmail.com_lastradioman@...> wrote:
Jay, Could be a corrupted fldigi config file. You can test for that by going to c:\Users\\fldigi.files and rename the flidigi.prefs file then try to start fldigi. If that works then you're
DuckDuckGo did not detect any?trackers.
Unable to verify sender identity
Jay,

Could be a corrupted fldigi config file.

You can test for that by going to c:\Users\<loginname>\fldigi.files and rename the flidigi.prefs file then try to start fldigi. If that works then you're good to go. If not then rename the fldigi_def.xml file in the same directory. That will cause you to need to setup fldigi from scratch. Just do a basic minimal setup then close fldigi and restart it. If it's ok then finish reconfiguring fldigi. You'll still have macros, logs, etc from the old config. It that doesn't solve the issue then go back and delete the newly created fldigi_def.xml file and rename the old one back to fldigi_def.xml to restore the old config.

73,
Cliff, AE5ZA



On Sep 9, 2024, at 11:15, Jay W6CJ via groups.io <lastradioman@...> wrote:

Hi Group,

Had something unusual happen:
I had FLRIG-FLDIGI working just fine with an IC-7300.
Yesterday, FLRIG seemed OK, but FLDIGI pops up for two seconds and then disappears.??

Any suggestions?

Thanks&73,
Jay
W6CJ
Re: FLRIG OK, FLDIGI quit working?

Cliff
 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Jay,

Could be a corrupted fldigi config file.

You can test for that by going to c:\Users\<loginname>\fldigi.files and rename the flidigi.prefs file then try to start fldigi. If that works then you're good to go. If not then rename the fldigi_def.xml file in the same directory. That will cause you to need to setup fldigi from scratch. Just do a basic minimal setup then close fldigi and restart it. If it's ok then finish reconfiguring fldigi. You'll still have macros, logs, etc from the old config. It that doesn't solve the issue then go back and delete the newly created fldigi_def.xml file and rename the old one back to fldigi_def.xml to restore the old config.

73,
Cliff, AE5ZA



On Sep 9, 2024, at 11:15, Jay W6CJ via <lastradioman@...> wrote:

Hi Group,

Had something unusual happen:
I had FLRIG-FLDIGI working just fine with an IC-7300.
Yesterday, FLRIG seemed OK, but FLDIGI pops up for two seconds and then disappears.??

Any suggestions?

Thanks&73,
Jay
W6CJ
Re: FLRIG OK, FLDIGI quit working?

 

is it possible that fldigi never shut down properly, and your new start is causing an issue??? ?check task manager

Dave Garber
VE3WEJ / VE3IE


On Mon, Sep 9, 2024 at 12:15?PM Jay W6CJ via <lastradioman=[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Group,

Had something unusual happen:
I had FLRIG-FLDIGI working just fine with an IC-7300.
Yesterday, FLRIG seemed OK, but FLDIGI pops up for two seconds and then disappears.??

Any suggestions?

Thanks&73,
Jay
W6CJ
FLRIG OK, FLDIGI quit working?

 

Hi Group,

Had something unusual happen:
I had FLRIG-FLDIGI working just fine with an IC-7300.
Yesterday, FLRIG seemed OK, but FLDIGI pops up for two seconds and then disappears.??

Any suggestions?

Thanks&73,
Jay
W6CJ
FLRIG executes, FLDIGI drops out?

 


Hi Group,
I had FLRIG/FLDIGI up and running until this afternoon:
Now, when I start FLRIG, my FLDIGI screen pops up for a second and then goes away.? Appreciate any suggestions.

73
Jay
W6CJ
Fldigi 4.2.05 Fails to run on Win 7?

 

I am attempting to run the latest version of Fldigi 4.2.05 under Win 7. It seems to load okay, but at startup I get the error:
?
Assertion Failed! Program ...
Fldigi.exe ? src/hostapi/wdmks/pa_win_wdmks.c, ?Line 1061
?
The decode works fine, but it will not transmit. The application looks like it is sending sound, but no sound is going out, even though the sound-card is set properly. This works fine with Fldigi 4.1.11 and the same configuration settings.
?
Is there any resolution besides using a later version of windows or Linux instead?
?
Thanks, Corky
Re: Receive settings?

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý



Reduce the monitored transmit signal level.? This is actual just an FFT transformation of the transmit audio signal.

David

On 9/7/24 15:46, Jay W6CJ via groups.io wrote:

Thanks Mike-
Moving the left control (UPPER SIGNAL LEVEL) to -51 shows dark blue background and received signals in yellow.? ?(SIGNAL RANGE) was at 60.??
My transmit signal with these settings is red with yellow background....too high.
73
Jay
W6CJ
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