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AR1 turntable problems
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I am using a AR1 between my ATLAS TT rotating table rail and the spokes of which two are main line entry/exit points.
I'm having trouble when a Loco straddles the table and spoke. Locos can only move slowly from table to spoke and vica versa, so the loco straddles the gap for a long time. It seems like the AR1 is oscillating back and forth. My Power Cab then switches and says Cab = 2 which is probably the PC short protection tripping. The AR1 output is connected to the TT. The input is connected to its own power district/breaker. I have another AR1 for a 30-degree cross in the center of the layout and no problem there. Input is connected to the 4 isolated sections of the cross and the output is its own power district/breaker. |
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Lawrence? Step one is to exchange the AR1s. If the problem moves to the crossing, the AR1 is the problem. If it stays with the turntable? suspect the wiring. Wouter On Sun, 4 Jun 2023, 22:57 Lawrence Varady, <mrmrsv5049@...> wrote: I am using a AR1 between my ATLAS TT rotating table rail and the spokes of which two are main line entry/exit points. |
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Lawrence,
This is at least the 3rd group you've approached with this question. The Atlas turntable uses a 'split slip ring' and doesn't need an AR for a 'normal' installation.?? We may need a track plan to determine if you have a unique reversing situation.? You may need an AR located away from the turntable.?? Ross |
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I don't understand, the table should be separated into two halves, divided with a dead section about as wide as the bridge. That way the table doesn't need a reverser, it is always the correct polarity for DC or DCC. Every 160 degrees or so of turn there is a dead spot on the bridge, then the bridge reverses to match the original polarity. All the contemporary Turn Tables I have seen have this feature.?
On Monday, June 5, 2023 at 10:38:24 PM EDT, Lawrence Varady <mrmrsv5049@...> wrote:
Track plan in PHOTOS. The easiest solution for DCC is an auto-reverse unit, DCC power in to the autoreverser, the outputs connect to the turntable bridge power (and ONLY the bridge power). |
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýLawrence, If this is an N scale Atlas turntable, as shown on
the Atlas website, the manual available on their website (
) indicates
that an Auto-Reverser is not required. Referring to rail polarity the manual states "is
taken care of by a split-ring arrangement, built into the
turntable as shown in fig 4, which automatically changes the
turntable's rail polarity when needed." It does not need an auto-reverser.
John.
On 6/06/2023 12:38 pm, Lawrence Varady
wrote:
Track plan in PHOTOS. |
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IMHO,I believe that it should have been stated, "IF ALL the spokes are wired in the same + to - respectively, THEN the split ring takes care of? NOT needing an AR".
If you look at the drawing I put in photos, you will see the different polarities on my spokes. They are also spread between A and B portions of the TT. If you look at some documents out there, like the wiring in FIG 6, you will see how the polarities matter. I would love to hear what Alan thinks. |
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýLawrence, From looking at your diagram track 10 potentially introduces a reverse loop. The turntable does not need an auto-reverser. Track 10 may need it. Gap both rails at the two spots labelled 10, then power that thru the AR. John On 7/06/2023 7:24 am, Lawrence Varady
wrote:
IMHO,I believe that it should have been stated, "IF ALL the spokes are wired in the same + to - respectively, THEN the split ring takes care of? NOT needing an AR". |
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Lawrence,
I concur with John Heap's analysis.? You have a 'reversing loop' on track 10 between track switches Grn 5 and Blu 6 (I think I've read the numbers correctly).? This section needs a reverser.? All 'spoke' track reversing is handled by the turntable IF it is wired per the Atlas instructions.? (Make sure the turntable, track 11, and the spoke joining at Grn 4 are 'in phase.' Here are some additional concerns that may affect AR function: 1.? Track wiring - How long and what gauge are your main track bus wires?? How long are your track 'feeder' drop wires?? Inadequate wiring (with excess 'total resistance') can prevent proper AR operation. 2. Do you have a 'circuit breaker' device between your booster and the AR?? If so, the circuit breaker must operate at a higher trip current and slower reaction time than the AR. Finally, have you adjusted the AR1?? ?The AR1 instruction sheet and this Digitrax Tech Support Depot article have guidance and step-by-step instructions.?? FWIW - I've recently helped with 2 AR1 installations with complaints similar to yours.? In both cases the wiring was very 'stout' thus was not a concern.? In 1 case, I had to adjust a circuit breaker to a higher trip current and slower reaction speed.? In both cases, careful adjustment of the AR1 was required.?? Hint - put a small 'tape flag' on the screwdriver shaft to help you see how far you are rotating the adjustment screw. HTH, Ross |
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I seems to me people are talking more than listening. There could be many problems, but some seem unlikely.
I agree with Lawrence that it seems what he is doing "should" work, although it's not the way I'd wire it. But, let's get more information for a better analysis.Perhaps a 'hidden' short or extra wiring connection is causing the problem. Lawrence, do locos run OK on the turntable bridge only, and on each radial only, so the only problems are when they straddle the bridge and radials? If not, where don't they run OK, and how do they act instead of working properly? Especially, are the two main line/entry points problems? Do you have steam and diesel models? They may have different pickup arrangements. Do both have the problem, or only one type, or only a few locos of a type? Does the problem occur on every track radial as locos pass from the turntable bridge to any radial, or only to some? If only to some, to which ones? If the problem only occurs part of the time on any radial, what can you tell us about the differences between when it works and when it doesn't? Answering these questions should help us diagnose your problem(s). -- Don Weigt Connecticut |
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I have 14AWG BUSS & 6" 22AWG feeders going through BD20 detectors for every spoke & table.
The TT is the REVERSE SECTION(INPUT) and every spoke is wired to the same buss(OUTPUT). The 2 spokes that connect to the layout(green PD? BUSS) are fully gapped from the green power district. All the PDs are just the? POWER CAB OUTPUT distributed thru an EB-6, no booster. I will try adjusting the trip current again. If I can't get it to work then I will swap out the AR. THANKS? |
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Lawrence, At 14 gauge except for short segments at the rails or reversers, your wiring is certainly heavy enough unless your runs are extremely long. But, on further research, I've concluded this is a simple issue. You don't need an AR at all! All you need is to have the radial connecting to the green 11 in the picture wired with its polarity (+ and -) reversed from what is shown, and reversed from the 38 radial just above it and all the other radials in your picture. (As drawn, they match, and in this case, that is wrong!). So, its plus should be on its lower or outside rail. And then, notice if you follow the loop to the other radial, there is no polarity conflict, and no reversing needed. Why? Because 11 is connected to a radial on the opposite side of the turntable pit, where the polarity or phase of the rails is reversed. If you had an oval or other continuous track, it could include the turntable and radials directly across from each other, and trains could run through it with no switching, no reversing, and no problems. Now, noting the plus and minus of the rails of one of those radials, then imagine rotating it around the perimeter of the turntable pit to the opposite side. Note the plus and minus don't line up. That's why the turntable radials are in A and B groups, and why the loop in your picture doesn't need a reverser: The pit wiring makes the polarity or phasing correct, as long as one end of that loop goes to an "A" radial and the other end goes to a "B" radial, as your picture shows. Then, if you wire power correctly to the turntable and all the other radials, no reversing is needed. The only switching will be of the track on the turntable bridge, and that will be done by the turntable ring rail. As shown, all your radials, except the 11, should be wired the same as the 37 and 38 radials. The radial wired to 11 should be wired the opposite way, being the only used radial on the other side of the turntable and in the opposite group. -- Don Weigt Connecticut |
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For clarity, I should have written "The radial labelled 11 and the main line connected to it all need to be wired the opposite of how its shown, or all the other turntable radials need to be reversed from how they are shown. There is no need to gap or auto reverse the radial track labelled 11 relative to the main line or to the turntable bridge." |
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Thanks to all for the info you have provided me up to now.
It turns out that the issue was maybe a dirty pot on the AR1 CURRENT TRIP, but I have adjusted it and there are NO issues any longer. I did NOT change any rail polarities and it is working as it did previous to my "problem". The Auto Reverse does exactly what it was designed to do, not requiring any radial rail to be polarized based on the split ring A and B sections. Thanks again. Vic |
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Lawrence, I'm glad your problem is solved! It's your railroad. If you're happy with it now, that's fine. But, if you reversed the wiring of blocks 31 through 40, to match that of 10 and 29 you wouldn't need the AR at all, which is even better, IMHO. Why rely on added electronics when it's not necessary? It will never be quite as reliable as wiring without it... Don W -- Don Weigt Connecticut |
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