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Re: Detecting DC vs DCC track power
Yes they can. Mine does fine both Lenz and Roco Z21. ? Mike Piazza ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dave Heap
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2018 11:07 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [jmriusers] Detecting DC vs DCC track power? Most modern DCC systems cannot run a no-decoder DC locomotive. The NMRA standards provided for the optional possibility of running a single DC locomotive on DCC track, using a technique known as asymmetric zero-pulse stretching. Some manufacturers incorporated this capability into their command stations but almost all later removed the functionality (either in new models or via software update) due to a number of difficulties in practice, some adversely affecting performance of DCC locomotives. I believe one system may still have this feature. On the other hand, most DCC-fitted locos can be made to run on DC track, albeit with performance penalties. But some DC power packs do not play well with decoder-fitted locos due to having heavily pulsed output. Furthermore, having the option of DC mode enabled in the decoder increases the risk of loco runaway on a DC layout (a bad DCC signal can be misinterpreted as full-power DC) so most DCC users disable this in all loco decoders. The New England Convention 2018
On 30 Jul 2018, at 2:40 PM, Michael Piazza via Groups.Io <mpiazza2007@...> wrote:
I understand that but what Im saying is that since you can run DC locomotives on a DCC system you would no longer need to have your layout in DC mode anymore so you wouldnt have to worry about crossing points from DC to DCC because you would always only be using DCC.? If it works for everyone you then disable the DC to DCC switches with no additional hardware or complexity to deal with.
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Re: Detecting DC vs DCC track power
Most modern DCC systems cannot run a no-decoder DC locomotive.
The NMRA standards provided for the optional possibility of running a single DC locomotive on DCC track, using a technique known as asymmetric zero-pulse stretching.
Some manufacturers incorporated this capability into their command stations but almost all later removed the functionality (either in new models or via software update) due to a number of difficulties in practice, some adversely affecting performance of DCC locomotives. I believe one system may still have this feature.
On the other hand, most DCC-fitted locos can be made to run on DC track, albeit with performance penalties. But some DC power packs do not play well with decoder-fitted locos due to having heavily pulsed output. Furthermore, having the option of DC mode enabled in the decoder increases the risk of loco runaway on a DC layout (a bad DCC signal can be misinterpreted as full-power DC) so most DCC users disable this in all loco decoders.
The New England Convention 2018
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On 30 Jul 2018, at 2:40 PM, Michael Piazza via Groups.Io < mpiazza2007@...> wrote: I understand that but what Im saying is that since you can run DC locomotives on a DCC system you would no longer need to have your layout in DC mode anymore so you wouldnt have to worry about crossing points from DC to DCC because you would always only be using DCC.? If it works for everyone you then disable the DC to DCC switches with no additional hardware or complexity to deal with.
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Re: Detecting DC vs DCC track power
This is what I¡¯m saying.? Most DC locomotives will run on the latest DCC systems with NO modifications. ?All the DC engines are running as address 3 so your block control is still required but you don¡¯t need to futz around with any esoteric circuitry because you are only running in one mode: DCC. ?As such there would be NO REASON to run DC anymore.? Some people don¡¯t like the way the DCC pulses drive their DC motors but it is still doable. ? Mike Piazza ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Tom Cain
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2018 10:05 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [jmriusers] Detecting DC vs DCC track power? I also agree with Bruce, trying to run DC and DCC together is just asking for trouble. ? I think that model railroaders are sometimes a very cost conscience group and I count my self in that description. ?I have some great looking older locomotives from the DC era that I would like to run on my layout, but now I just have them in my display case. ?I¡¯ll likely never convert them to DCC especially now that I have some 20 other DCC locomotives on my layout. ?So I find it a faulty logic to avoid the time and $20 to convert a loco to DCC when the unfortunate consequence of an accident could be the cause of damaging a DCC control system worth hundreds of dollars. ?? ? Thomas Cain
Indianapolis, IN
atsf93@...
Modeling the Eastern?Illinois Santa Fe from the?Prototype
See my website and layout?at: ?
On Jul 29, 2018, at 10:19 PM, Bruce Petrarca via Groups.Io <bfpetrarca@...> wrote: ? The VERY BEST way to prevent the disasters awaiting this scenario is to prevent its existence. Don¡¯t ?allow DC and DCC to exist on the same layout at the same time.?
Anything else is a recipe for disaster. Bruce Petrarca, Mr. DCC; MMR #574
Learn more about DCC at?
?
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Re: Detecting DC vs DCC track power
I also agree with Bruce, trying to run DC and DCC together is just asking for trouble. ? I think that model railroaders are sometimes a very cost conscience group and I count my self in that description. ?I have some great looking older locomotives from the DC era that I would like to run on my layout, but now I just have them in my display case. ?I¡¯ll likely never convert them to DCC especially now that I have some 20 other DCC locomotives on my layout. ?So I find it a faulty logic to avoid the time and $20 to convert a loco to DCC when the unfortunate consequence of an accident could be the cause of damaging a DCC control system worth hundreds of dollars. ??
Thomas Cain Indianapolis, IN atsf93@...Modeling the Eastern?Illinois Santa Fe from the?Prototype See my website and layout?at: ?www.atsf93.com
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On Jul 29, 2018, at 10:19 PM, Bruce Petrarca via Groups.Io < bfpetrarca@...> wrote:
The VERY BEST way to prevent the disasters awaiting this scenario is to prevent its existence. Don¡¯t ?allow DC and DCC to exist on the same layout at the same time.? Anything else is a recipe for disaster. -- Bruce Petrarca, Mr. DCC; MMR #574
Learn more about DCC at? Read my columns at?
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Re: Detecting DC vs DCC track power
You mentioned Arduino :-) A DCC decoder sketch connected to a track segment via an opto-isolator can detect valid DCC packets - the sketch's "got a valid packet" callback can function as a simple watchdog flip flop that can tell you to [DCC / not DCC]... You could even combine it with a suitably isolated averaging/low pass filtered voltage measurement on an analog pin to give you a sense of the analog DC level on the track.
Just remember that these days, "analog DC" means pulse power and HF keep alive, and not just plain old filtered stable DC; the old "transformer coupled detectors only work with DCC" mantra isn't really true any more.
This should allow you to detect? - no track voltage/disconnected
- DCC on the track
- Some non-DCC voltage, presumed to be analog DC
Telling JMRI is easy - the 'duino can be programmed to use CMRI, Loconet, etc, or you could wire it up directly to an existing sensor feedback device.
? -John
On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 8:48 PM, dick bronson <dick@...> wrote: Hi,
In theory this should work. The devil is in the details. Many DC power supplies actually put out a pulsed or even PWM waveform that is sufficient to trigger a transformer coupled detector. I know this because we have customers for our CT coil based detectors that use them for both DC and DCC detection. One example is a museum layout that operates with DCC when the club is present and DC when only a docent is present.
Probably the simplest solution is to detect the DC power output and not allow the crossovers to operate when present. A bit more 'exotic' would be to detect both DC and DCC outputs with relays and if both relays are activated remove power from the crossovers. It is not fool proof because it is not fail safe, but probably DC operation has its days numbered. (based on the experience of many clubs that once had dual operation)
Dick :)
On 07/29/2018 10:38 PM, eclipserd via Groups.Io wrote:
Doug,
Bruce's message is the best medicine...
But I also know that with clubs and groups there can be a very definitive line between optimal and realistic when it comes to club politics.? With that said, if you can convince your group to sans any interfacing/crossovers/switching tracks between DCC and DC, etc, then that would be the best option....
If not.....
Then my suggestion would be to utilize a DCC specific, transformer coupled detector (NCE, CMRI, Iowa Scaled Engineering, etc.).? In theory, the detectors rely on the alternating current of a DCC voltage source to couple through a small current sensing transformer.? Transformers will not couple DC due to the lack of the rising and falling voltages of the alternating currents - DC simply just passes through undetected.? With that said, you would simply need to place a small amount of resistance in series with the detector and the power of the block(s) that could create a conflict.? If the voltage is DCC, then the detector would show active and if DC, the detector would not show active.? A little Logix in JMRI and you could easily keep switches from throwing unless they matched in power sources.
Regards,
Daland Speirs
SLC, UT
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Locked
Re: Detecting DC vs DCC track power
I understand that but what Im saying is that since you can run DC locomotives on a DCC system you would no longer need to have your layout in DC mode anymore so you wouldnt have to worry about crossing points from DC to DCC because you would always only be using DCC.? If it works for everyone you then disable the DC to DCC switches with no additional hardware or complexity to deal with.
Mike Piazza
Mike, I appreciate the feedback.? I don't _think_ I'm overthinking this idea.? My goal is to prevent a DCC locomotive from going through a cross-over onto a track that is powered by DC.? Also the inverse, where a DC locomotive crosses onto a DCC powered track.
Doug
On Sun, Jul 29, 2018, 9:54 PM Michael Piazza via Groups.Io <mpiazza2007= [email protected]> wrote: Most DCC systems can drive a DC locomotive defaulting to address 3.? All the DC locomotives running in the DCC layout will be running from address 3 so you will still have to isolate blocks as normally done with DC.
The difference is that the voltage hitting the motor is pulsed rather than a clean DC signal and the engine may not run as smoothly.
I'm just suggesting this to think about as you are really trying to overcomplicate things when you may not have to.
Just some food for thought.
Mike Piazza
Hi everyone, I've tried countless Google searches, and I can't find an answer to this question so I'm hoping someone here can point me in the right direction.
I am a member of an NTrak group and we support DC and DCC via a toggle switch on each of the three lines. ?
I am planning on building a module that will allow us to cross over from any line to either of the other lines.? I am hoping to create a panel in PanelPro to control the switches, but I don't want the panel to allow the switches to be thrown if the two lines are not running the same power (DC or DCC).
Is there a way to build a circuit (Arduino, RPi, etc) that can tell JMRI if the the line is powered by DC or DCC?? By the way, my electronics knowledge is limited so any and all details are welcome (and probably needed).
Thanks, Doug Mertens
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Re: decoder pro. with paragon decoders
What should cv 246 be set to ?get best results
Tony
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On Jul 29, 2018, at 8:31 PM, Steve_G < RailRodder@...> wrote:
Hi
Check cv245 data bit 6 . I dont know if applies to all there decoders but applies to a lot. This allows programming track read write without errors, or boosters.
Steve G. On July 29, 2018 3:48:43 PM EDT, Classic Auto Portraits < classicautoportraits@...> wrote:
Dear Tony,
I too have encountered issues with the Broadway Limited units. One
Paragon2 PA1 in particular will not reset from it's 03 default. I
have come across mention of "Blast Programming" (see below) by
Digitrax, for decoders that "Require more current," but this looks
like it will only work with the Zephyr series.
I'd like to know more about the PTB100 track Booster.
Regards,
Robert Diepenbrock
On 7/28/18 8:33 AM, Roger Merritt
wrote:
Tony,
? ? My past experience with the Paragon locos was they had
capacitors in them and that soaks up the short write signal.? Had
to get a Track Booster to program those properly.? Using a PTB100
track Booster with my Digitrax DCS100 command station.
Roger
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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Re: Detecting DC vs DCC track power
Hi,
In theory this should work. The devil is in the details. Many DC power supplies actually put out a pulsed or even PWM waveform that is sufficient to trigger a transformer coupled detector. I know this because we have customers for our CT coil based detectors that use them for both DC and DCC detection. One example is a museum layout that operates with DCC when the club is present and DC when only a docent is present.
Probably the simplest solution is to detect the DC power output and not allow the crossovers to operate when present. A bit more 'exotic' would be to detect both DC and DCC outputs with relays and if both relays are activated remove power from the crossovers. It is not fool proof because it is not fail safe, but probably DC operation has its days numbered. (based on the experience of many clubs that once had dual operation)
Dick :)
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 07/29/2018 10:38 PM, eclipserd via Groups.Io wrote:
Doug,
Bruce's message is the best medicine...
But I also know that with clubs and groups there can be a very definitive line between optimal and realistic when it comes to club politics.? With that said, if you can convince your group to sans any interfacing/crossovers/switching tracks between DCC and DC, etc, then that would be the best option....
If not.....
Then my suggestion would be to utilize a DCC specific, transformer coupled detector (NCE, CMRI, Iowa Scaled Engineering, etc.).? In theory, the detectors rely on the alternating current of a DCC voltage source to couple through a small current sensing transformer.? Transformers will not couple DC due to the lack of the rising and falling voltages of the alternating currents - DC simply just passes through undetected.? With that said, you would simply need to place a small amount of resistance in series with the detector and the power of the block(s) that could create a conflict.? If the voltage is DCC, then the detector would show active and if DC, the detector would not show active.? A little Logix in JMRI and you could easily keep switches from throwing unless they matched in power sources.
Regards,
Daland Speirs
SLC, UT
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Re: Decoder pro,,,how to delete entry of locomotive sold
THANK YOU ALL FOR THE HELP. Greatly appreciated.
Frank
:>)....Have a good day.....Frank W (IPhone)
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Test version 4.13.1 of JMRI/DecoderPro is available for download.
This is the next in a series of test releases that will culminate in a production release, hopefully in Summer 2018.
If you are currently using JMRI 4.9.6 or earlier, we strongly recommend that you first update to JMRI 4.12 and make sure that's running OK before updating to this test release. There have been a number of changes in serial port support, panel file format and configuration options since those earlier releases, and moving to the stable JMRI 4.12 release is a good way to work through any possible problems.
<>
If you use JMRI on Linux or Mac and are updating from JMRI 4.7.3 or earlier, there¡¯s a necessary migration step. (Not needed on Windows) Please see the JMRI 4.12 release note for details: <>
For more information on the issues, new features and bug fixes in 4.13.1 please see the release note:
<>
Note that JMRI is made available under the GNU General Public License. For more information, please see our copyright and licensing page.
<>
The download links, along with lots of other information which we hope you'll read, can be found on the release note page:
<>
--
Bob Jacobsen
rgj1927@...
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Re: Decoder pro,,,how to delete entry of locomotive sold
You have to do it from All Entries. If you right-click while in a group, the only removal option will be "Remove From Group"
The New England Convention 2018
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On 30 Jul 2018, at 11:53 AM, John Griffin < johng.sst@...> wrote: You can also right-click on the roster entry and select 'Delete from Roster'.
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Re: Detecting DC vs DCC track power
What you want is there to be no voltage across the gaps when you get there. Bad cases include: *) Both sides DC, but set to opposite polarity *) Both sides DCC, but wired opposite or running off different command stations *) One side DC and one side DCC I suggest you put a pair of oppositely-wired opto-isolators on each gap, a pair on each side. Pick limit resistors that¡¯ll let them survive 30V, and still work down to about 3V. Have those feed whatever indicator you want. If any of the four are conducting, there¡¯s voltage across the gap: don¡¯t go there. Which ones are conducting, and whether they¡¯re on all the time or rapidly going on and off, will tell you which problem you have. Bob On Jul 29, 2018, at 6:32 PM, doug.mertens <mertensdoug@...> wrote:
Hi everyone,
I've tried countless Google searches, and I can't find an answer to this question so I'm hoping someone here can point me in the right direction.
I am a member of an NTrak group and we support DC and DCC via a toggle switch on each of the three lines.
I am planning on building a module that will allow us to cross over from any line to either of the other lines. I am hoping to create a panel in PanelPro to control the switches, but I don't want the panel to allow the switches to be thrown if the two lines are not running the same power (DC or DCC).
Is there a way to build a circuit (Arduino, RPi, etc) that can tell JMRI if the the line is powered by DC or DCC? By the way, my electronics knowledge is limited so any and all details are welcome (and probably needed). -- Bob Jacobsen rgj1927@...
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Re: Detecting DC vs DCC track power
Doug,
Bruce's message is the best medicine...
But I also know that with clubs and groups there can be a very definitive line between optimal and realistic when it comes to club politics.? With that said, if you can convince your group to sans any interfacing/crossovers/switching tracks between DCC and DC, etc, then that would be the best option....
If not.....
Then my suggestion would be to utilize a DCC specific, transformer coupled detector (NCE, CMRI, Iowa Scaled Engineering, etc.).? In theory, the detectors rely on the alternating current of a DCC voltage source to couple through a small current sensing transformer.? Transformers will not couple DC due to the lack of the rising and falling voltages of the alternating currents - DC simply just passes through undetected.? With that said, you would simply need to place a small amount of resistance in series with the detector and the power of the block(s) that could create a conflict.? If the voltage is DCC, then the detector would show active and if DC, the detector would not show active.? A little Logix in JMRI and you could easily keep switches from throwing unless they matched in power sources.
Regards,
Daland Speirs
SLC, UT
?
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Locked
Re: Detecting DC vs DCC track power
The VERY BEST way to prevent the disasters awaiting this scenario is to prevent its existence. Don¡¯t ?allow DC and DCC to exist on the same layout at the same time.? Anything else is a recipe for disaster. -- Bruce Petrarca, Mr. DCC; MMR #574
Learn more about DCC at? Read my columns at?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jul 29, 2018, at 8:05 PM, doug.mertens < mertensdoug@...> wrote: I don't _think_ I'm overthinking this idea.? My goal is to prevent a DCC locomotive from going through a cross-over onto a track that is powered by DC.? Also the inverse, where a DC locomotive crosses onto a DCC powered track.
Doug
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Re: Detecting DC vs DCC track power
Mike, I appreciate the feedback.? I don't _think_ I'm overthinking this idea.? My goal is to prevent a DCC locomotive from going through a cross-over onto a track that is powered by DC.? Also the inverse, where a DC locomotive crosses onto a DCC powered track.
Doug
On Sun, Jul 29, 2018, 9:54 PM Michael Piazza via Groups.Io <mpiazza2007= [email protected]> wrote: Most DCC systems can drive a DC locomotive defaulting to address 3.? All the DC locomotives running in the DCC layout will be running from address 3 so you will still have to isolate blocks as normally done with DC.
The difference is that the voltage hitting the motor is pulsed rather than a clean DC signal and the engine may not run as smoothly.
I'm just suggesting this to think about as you are really trying to overcomplicate things when you may not have to.
Just some food for thought.
Mike Piazza
Hi everyone, I've tried countless Google searches, and I can't find an answer to this question so I'm hoping someone here can point me in the right direction.
I am a member of an NTrak group and we support DC and DCC via a toggle switch on each of the three lines. ?
I am planning on building a module that will allow us to cross over from any line to either of the other lines.? I am hoping to create a panel in PanelPro to control the switches, but I don't want the panel to allow the switches to be thrown if the two lines are not running the same power (DC or DCC).
Is there a way to build a circuit (Arduino, RPi, etc) that can tell JMRI if the the line is powered by DC or DCC?? By the way, my electronics knowledge is limited so any and all details are welcome (and probably needed).
Thanks, Doug Mertens
|
Locked
Re: Detecting DC vs DCC track power
Most DCC systems can drive a DC locomotive defaulting to address 3.? All the DC locomotives running in the DCC layout will be running from address 3 so you will still have to isolate blocks as normally done with DC.
The difference is that the voltage hitting the motor is pulsed rather than a clean DC signal and the engine may not run as smoothly.
I'm just suggesting this to think about as you are really trying to overcomplicate things when you may not have to.
Just some food for thought.
Mike Piazza
Hi everyone, I've tried countless Google searches, and I can't find an answer to this question so I'm hoping someone here can point me in the right direction.
I am a member of an NTrak group and we support DC and DCC via a toggle switch on each of the three lines. ?
I am planning on building a module that will allow us to cross over from any line to either of the other lines.? I am hoping to create a panel in PanelPro to control the switches, but I don't want the panel to allow the switches to be thrown if the two lines are not running the same power (DC or DCC).
Is there a way to build a circuit (Arduino, RPi, etc) that can tell JMRI if the the line is powered by DC or DCC?? By the way, my electronics knowledge is limited so any and all details are welcome (and probably needed).
Thanks, Doug Mertens
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Locked
Re: Decoder pro,,,how to delete entry of locomotive sold
You can also right-click on the roster entry and select 'Delete from Roster'.
John
On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 6:50 PM, David dareese51 <dareese51@...> wrote: Frank
I highlight the loco I want to delete and click on edit then delete then confirm that I do want to delete it.? That is how I do it.
David
-- John Griffin
__________________________________
I've lost my dog and my remote...
Reward for remote.
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Detecting DC vs DCC track power
Hi everyone, I've tried countless Google searches, and I can't find an answer to this question so I'm hoping someone here can point me in the right direction.
I am a member of an NTrak group and we support DC and DCC via a toggle switch on each of the three lines. ?
I am planning on building a module that will allow us to cross over from any line to either of the other lines.? I am hoping to create a panel in PanelPro to control the switches, but I don't want the panel to allow the switches to be thrown if the two lines are not running the same power (DC or DCC).
Is there a way to build a circuit (Arduino, RPi, etc) that can tell JMRI if the the line is powered by DC or DCC?? By the way, my electronics knowledge is limited so any and all details are welcome (and probably needed).
Thanks, Doug Mertens
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Re: Decoder pro,,,how to delete entry of locomotive sold
Frank
I highlight the loco I want to delete and click on edit then delete then confirm that I do want to delete it.? That is how I do it.
David
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Decoder pro,,,how to delete entry of locomotive sold
Hello. ?I have an entry in DecoderPro for locomotive #107. How do I delete the decoder file for this locomotive from Decoder Pro which I no longer own? ?I tried highlighting the entry and hitting DELETE but it did nothing. ?I have several to delete....THANK YOU....Frank
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Bob Jacobsen
Bruce Petrarca