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I decided to take a systematic pass through the Digitrax decoder info sheets and characterize their decoders, looking for the right families. From their info I find:

DH121 2 leads, independent function

DH142 4 leads, FX, BEMF, transponding

DH150 5 outputs, FX

DH163 6 outputs, FX3, BEMF, transponding, silent

DH380 8 outputs, FX

DH580 8 outputs, FX

DN121 2 leads, directional lights

DN141 4 leads, FX, BEMF, transponding

DN142 4 leads, FX, BEMF, transponding

DN144 4 leads, FX

DN145 4 leads, FX

DN146 4 leads, FX

DN147 4 leads, FX

DN148 4 leads, FX

DN149 4 leads, FX, BEMF, transponding

DN163 6 leads, FX3, BEMF, transponding

DZ121 2 leads, CS, BEMF, transponding

DZ143 4 leads, FX3, BEMF, transponding


I didn't have Digitrax sheets for these following, so took the info from Tony's Train Exchange table:

DN122 2 leads, directional lights (from TTX sheet)

DG380 8 outputs, FX

DG580 8 outputs, FX

DG583 8 outputs, FX3, BEMF, transponding, silent

DH083 ? outputs, FX


In the catalog they were handing out at the train show, Digitrax referred to several types of decoders:

Basic (e.g. DN121, DH121)

Basic-FX (e.g. DN144, DN148): Basic plus FX lighting

Premium (e.g. DN141, DN149): Basic-FX plus BEMF and transponding

Series 3 (e.g. DH163): Premium plus silent, ops mode read, etc.

I think you'd have to add a category for the CS decoders, which I think is just the DZ121. And you'd have to distinguish the "STD" lighting basic decoders (DH121) from the "STD*" ones (DN121). That would give a total of six families.

Does this sound right? What should we use for the family names?

Does anybody have CV7 values for any of these?

Bob




--
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Bob Jacobsen (Bob_Jacobsen@..., 510-486-7355, fax 510-495-2957)

At 10:31 PM +1200 7/30/02, Alex Shepherd wrote:

> LE0511W, DN149K, and an early DN series.

Great, I have two DN149K2s (all I have!!!) so when you are done I'll give
them a shot

Now I just select DN142 Family and it works fine, except the Ident doesn't
know about DN149K2s (yet) so here's hoping David

When you read from CV7, what values do you get for those decoders?

Bob
--
--------------
Bob Jacobsen (Bob_Jacobsen@..., 510-486-7355, fax 510-495-2957)

At 7:35 PM -0700 7/30/02, Michael Mosher wrote:

I really like Decoder Pro but there's a few mis classifications of Digitrax
decoders. The DN140, DN144K, DN145K, DN146A, DN147A & DN148K are listed in
the Digitrax STD decoders but they are really FX decoders without BEMF. I
think a new directory called "Digitrax FX decoders" or "Digitrax FX decoders
without BEMF" needs to be created and those decoders moved there. Also the
DN146A (and I suspect the others as well) do not have the FX lighting CVs in
the Function tab. Also there's a DN146 and DN146A entries, the DN146 is
redundant, same decoder. The DH083 is listed in the Digitrax FX with BEMF
dir, but this decoder does not have BEMF, thou it is an FX decoder, should
be moved to the above dir. One more little thing, the DH150 is in a dir by
itself, since there not likely to ever be any more 150's and since it's a FX
without BEMF decoder maybe it should be moved and that dir removed for
efficiency sake. Thanks.

Thanks for the detailed comments!

I put together the original Digitrax definitions, along with some help from blameless others, and I'm happy to agree that I probably didn't get all the details right.

I'm on a business trip, so my time is a little limited for the next week and I can't get to my layout, but I'm happy to work on this type of thing while sitting on airplanes.

The basic underlying idea was that decoder manufacturers would have various software/firmware versions that they'd use to make multiple decoders. That same firmware might be installed on various PC formfactors, with various numbers of output transistors for functions, but would have the same CVs in each case.

Those firmware sets are the basis for the "family" idea. A file, which defines a family, also contains the list of decoders that belong to that family.

So you can see how this would go wrong: I'd code something based on the info I could get from the web. To the unpolished eye, perhaps assisted by the "system" of decoder names, other models would look like they had the same features, hence belonged to the same family, so I'd add their names to that file. But it was easy to get this wrong.

So, as a start, what should be the names of the various types of Digitrax decoders? At one point I based the names on the Digitrax function naming" FX, CS (configurable strobe), STD and STD*, plus the new FX3. But that now doesn't seem to be the right approach, because BEMF and perhaps other functions appear in different combinations.

Bob
--
--------------
Bob Jacobsen (Bob_Jacobsen@..., 510-486-7355, fax 510-495-2957)

Dave Falkenburg wrote:

On Wednesday, July 31, 2002, at 03:15 PM, Jon Miller wrote:

You guys working on the DZ121, remember it's a really strange
decoder.
It does some strange resets of CV29. Below are a couple of items I
saved in
my files that a notes from Don Crano;

Smells like Bob will have to add special case code to the pane
programmer.

I wonder if doing such a thing is wise. Maybe a procedural note on the
decoder is in order. I remember talking about having a description field
in the decoder file where people can add notes about the decoder(s) of
concern. Where this text would pop up in the programmer is not clear.
Maybe on the decoder selection screen.


Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Linear Technology
Power Supply & Battery charger Applications Engineer/Manager
---------------------------------------------------------
Model Railroad Club and NMRA DCC presentations are at:

--------------------------------------------------------
Audio Enthusiast (Love SAE equipment)


----------------------------------------------------------

On Wednesday, July 31, 2002, at 03:15 PM, Jon Miller wrote:

You guys working on the DZ121, remember it's a really strange decoder.
It does some strange resets of CV29. Below are a couple of items I saved in
my files that a notes from Don Crano;

Smells like Bob will have to add special case code to the pane programmer.

-Dave

Just got back from an 8 day trip!

Let me check to make sure. These lines in each light definition:

<enumChoice choice="Function on when loco going forward"/>
<enumChoice choice="Function on when loco going forward"/>

should really be:

<enumChoice choice="Function on when loco going forward"/>
<enumChoice choice="Function on when loco going reverse"/>
Is that right?
Bob<

You probably already fixed this but the answer is Yes!

You guys working on the DZ121, remember it's a really strange decoder.
It does some strange resets of CV29. Below are a couple of items I saved in
my files that a notes from Don Crano;

"There are a couple notes on the DZ121 that may or may not have effected
you.
When programming the short address (CV01) in your DZ121, the decoder
will
automatically set CV19 to 0, CV29 to 0, CV 55 to 80, CV56 to 30 & CV57 to 0.
This is done to insure compatibility with DCC systems that only recognize
short addressing (2 digit mode). When using long addressing (4 digit
addressing) these CV's are not affected.
After changing the short address (CV01), you will probably want to
change
CV29 to 06 or another appropriate value based on your operations. You can do
this on the programming track or, if you forget, you can use Operations Mode
to do this once the loco is back on the layout.

What all this means is, if you set the 4 digit address, and bit5 of CV29,
then go back and change CV01 the short address, The decoder automatically
reset CV29 to 0. So with the DZ121, it is best to set the short address CV01
as desired first, let it reset all the above CV's. Then change the long
address and any other of the CV's you like. And just remember anytime you go
back and change CV01, then you need to change the other CV's above back to
what you had them set to."
"1) First and foremost, read the Digitrax application note located at:



Why Digitrax didn't package this information with the decoders is beyond me!

It basically says that anytime you reprogram CV01 (the 2digit address), the
DZ121 automatically resets several CVs. The key here is the reset doesn't
happen during programming, it happens the first time the DZ121 powers up on
the layout in normal mode. So if you use the PR1 to program your values and
change CV01, using the PR1 to read back the data shows everything as you
would expect. In other words, it confirms everything was programmed as you
requested. But when you carry the loco to the layout and place it on the
track, the DZ121 powers up, detects the CV01 change and resets the following
CVs:

- The Back EMF CVs are reset to factory defaults.

- The consist register (CV19) is reset to zero per NMRA standards.

- AND THE KILLER IS the configuration register (CV29) IS RESET TO ZERO!
That means 14 speed steps, no analog conversion and 2digit addressing. With
14 speed steps, the loco lights don't work correctly (especially if the
command station is set for 28/128 steps) and the loco runs very rough. My
assumption is the real intent here was to reset CV29 to 2digit address mode
since you changed CV01 - but all Digitrax needed to do was reset a single
bit in CV29 - NOT THE ENTIRE CV!"



Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax DCC owner, Chief system
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS

bob,

sorry, i listed and test 0.9.3.4|9.4|1.0|1.0.1|and 1.0.2 not.
1.0 is removed on my Computer now or mixed. I have not so many
testers here. Do you know something about Der_Moba?

thanks for Your replay

Dieter

Bob,
the test off version J/MRI demo 1.0.0 in function development
and panel was great. I can build a panel from my own pictures
you can see on my home page:



but now the version is mixed mixed with the version 1.0.1
and ther disapear the function and i can not build own picture.

The picture I published wors with C/MRI and is programmed in
Power Basic 3.2 a new version of TURBO BASIC.

The plattform works and i write some small code in JAVA.

In the next time i want to work with LINUX und UBS to send
faster data to a big layout and i see a long way ???

JAVA version 1.4.0_01 and Windows 98

Dieter
not controlled to mistakes.

Hi-
I think the JMRI project would welcome corrected entries and reclassifications.
Up to now the emphasis was on getting it to work. So, dig in!
David

Michael Mosher wrote:

I really like Decoder Pro but there's a few mis classifications of Digitrax
decoders. The DN140, DN144K, DN145K, DN146A, DN147A & DN148K are listed in
the Digitrax STD decoders but they are really FX decoders without BEMF. I
think a new directory called "Digitrax FX decoders" or "Digitrax FX decoders
without BEMF" needs to be created and those decoders moved there. Also the
DN146A (and I suspect the others as well) do not have the FX lighting CVs in
the Function tab. Also there's a DN146 and DN146A entries, the DN146 is
redundant, same decoder. The DH083 is listed in the Digitrax FX with BEMF
dir, but this decoder does not have BEMF, thou it is an FX decoder, should
be moved to the above dir. One more little thing, the DH150 is in a dir by
itself, since there not likely to ever be any more 150's and since it's a FX
without BEMF decoder maybe it should be moved and that dir removed for
efficiency sake. Thanks.

Michael Mosher
Webmaster
Daylight Division PCR/NMRA www.trainweb.org/daylight
Golden Empire Historical & Modeling Society www.trainweb.org/gehams
San Luis Obispo Model Railroad Club www.trainweb.org/slomrc
Personal
Member
Kern County Live Steamers www.trainweb.org/kernctyls


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David Harris
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I really like Decoder Pro but there's a few mis classifications of Digitrax
decoders. The DN140, DN144K, DN145K, DN146A, DN147A & DN148K are listed in
the Digitrax STD decoders but they are really FX decoders without BEMF. I
think a new directory called "Digitrax FX decoders" or "Digitrax FX decoders
without BEMF" needs to be created and those decoders moved there. Also the
DN146A (and I suspect the others as well) do not have the FX lighting CVs in
the Function tab. Also there's a DN146 and DN146A entries, the DN146 is
redundant, same decoder. The DH083 is listed in the Digitrax FX with BEMF
dir, but this decoder does not have BEMF, thou it is an FX decoder, should
be moved to the above dir. One more little thing, the DH150 is in a dir by
itself, since there not likely to ever be any more 150's and since it's a FX
without BEMF decoder maybe it should be moved and that dir removed for
efficiency sake. Thanks.

Michael Mosher
Webmaster
Daylight Division PCR/NMRA www.trainweb.org/daylight
Golden Empire Historical & Modeling Society www.trainweb.org/gehams
San Luis Obispo Model Railroad Club www.trainweb.org/slomrc
Personal
Member
Kern County Live Steamers www.trainweb.org/kernctyls

Oops, I lied, I have a DN148K for my RS-2 -- but if I get good at doing it,
I'll do the 149 too :-)
David

Alex Shepherd wrote:

LE0511W, DN149K, and an early DN series.

Great, I have two DN149K2s (all I have!!!) so when you are done I'll give
them a shot

Now I just select DN142 Family and it works fine, except the Ident doesn't
know about DN149K2s (yet) so here's hoping David

Alex


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David Harris
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Discussion egroup:
Swiki:

LE0511W, DN149K, and an early DN series.

Great, I have two DN149K2s (all I have!!!) so when you are done I'll give
them a shot

Now I just select DN142 Family and it works fine, except the Ident doesn't
know about DN149K2s (yet) so here's hoping David

Alex

Hi Bob -
I have discovered:
-- I will see if I can add some decoders, and fix some. I have LE077,
LE0511W, DN149K, and an early DN series.
David

Bob,

Looks great to me! Think you now have 1-button speed curve solutions
knocked cold.

Robin

At 7:37 PM -0700 7/29/02, Robin Becker wrote:

The "constant ratio" (quadratic?) curve
takes care of the "exponential" type response, suggest you also consider a
log curve. I've found that log speed curves are very useful for providing
responsiveness at low speed while also smoothly limiting the top end
response of a loco.

Something like this?



Bob
--
--------------
Bob Jacobsen (Bob_Jacobsen@..., 510-486-7355, fax 510-495-2957)

Bob,

The speed table is looking very snazzy! Especially like the ability to set
the endpoints and then fit a curve. The "constant ratio" (quadratic?) curve
takes care of the "exponential" type response, suggest you also consider a
log curve. I've found that log speed curves are very useful for providing
responsiveness at low speed while also smoothly limiting the top end
response of a loco.

Robin

I've uploaded a new Windows installer 1.0.2:



This contains the (hoped for) fix to the installer so the program can find its icons when creating a "Panel Editor" frame.

Note that there's still a problem with the _size_ of the panel created; for reasons I don't yet understand, on some machines it's minimized down to just the top border. You'll need to grab the lower right corner and expand it to see what you're doing.

Bob
--
--------------
Bob Jacobsen (Bob_Jacobsen@..., 510-486-7355, fax 510-495-2957)

I'm impressed! You and Alex have done a fantastic job at capturing my
rendition of the Speed Curve table.

I only changes the font size - Bob did all the hard work...

Alex

Yes, the problems are with 'writing' -- I was aware I couldn't read with the
DB150 -- I suspect I have old firmware, so I will download and upgrade to the
latest.
David

Bob Jacobsen wrote:

At 2:35 PM -0700 7/29/02, David Harris wrote:

Hi Bob & John -- and the rest-
I finally got some time to try this out. I upgraded the Java to 1.4,
but then DecoderPro couldn't find any ports! It was ok after a fresh
install.

The install adds some libraries to your Java install directory. When
you install _another_ Java, it creates new Java directories alongside
the original ones (this is so you can "easily" drop back to the old
one). But those new ones are missing the JMRI installer's files, so
you have to run that installer again.

Anyway, the Loconet monitor works, as does the Power tool. However, the
Programmer does not --- complains it times out talking to the DB150.
I have one of the earlier Locobuffers, so maybe I need to upgrade the
firmware? John - do you know what version I have?

The DB150 (Empire Builder) can't read from the programming track. It
just doesn't have the electronics to do it. And it doesn't provide a
reliable way to know that when you ask it to read; it just refuses to
reply.

So if you're having timeouts when you do a read (e.g. hit an ident or
"read sheet" button), that's regrettably normal. If you select DB150
as your command station on the preferences pane, it will at least
disable those buttons.

If you're having timeouts when attempting to write to the decoder
(e.g. a "write sheet" button), then something else has gone wrong.

Bob

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Bob Jacobsen (Bob_Jacobsen@..., 510-486-7355, fax 510-495-2957)


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Bob,

I'm impressed! You and Alex have done a fantastic job at capturing my
rendition of the Speed Curve table. Thanks for adding the labels and
speed curve function buttons. Programming my decoders is becoming a
whole lot easier.

I noticed that you're looking for someone to test out programming for
a DZ121 decoder. I've one installed here and would be happy to assist.

Bob


--- In jmriusers@y..., Bob Jacobsen <Bob_Jacobsen@l...> wrote:

I've uploaded a new test installer for Windows. Let me know if
anybody wants a .zip file for Linux or Macintosh.

Features:

*) Fixes to TCS decoder definition, thanks to Jon Miller. Fix minor
typos in other labels.

*) DecoderPro speed table now has editable numbers, thanks to Alex

Shepherd.

Speed table also has three new buttons for setting various curves.

*) New "speedometer" tool in JmriDemo program (development menu).

I'd

love to know if it works for LocoNet users...

*) Control panel tool, see

*) Fixes to serial port error checking and recovery; you'll now get

a

dialog box for certain easy errors.

*) Roster file handling improved; now remembers the last directory
you used (until program is restarted), starts in the user

preferences

directory.

Some of the error handling code is experimental, and feedback would
be greatly appreciated.

The installer can be downloaded from



or the usual SourceForge mirrors.

Bob

--
--------------
Bob Jacobsen (Bob_Jacobsen@l..., 510-486-7355, fax 510-495-2957)