Perhaps this thread can get back on topic without the radical reactionary rhetoric firmly grounded in delusions.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., "Rick b Cool" <rickboehme@> wrote:

WOW.

This forum has turned into just another radical reactionary shithole. Completely off topic. Yet another internet place for delusions, distortions, and lies.

Fact: The full text of the ACA was available almost the whole time. Obviously less the changes currently being proposed and discussed.

Fact: The people who do this kind of whining are exclusively completely self centered anti-social morons who don't consider all the benefits they receive at others expense, or the great benefits of have a great society that supports all the people, grows the economy, and increases the standard of living. They simply dream of how good it would be if they retained everything they have and get and somehow didn't have to pay for any of it. All the advances of society and technology, the vast bulk of which they had nothing to do with. I am quite sure they use words like socialist and communist and have no idea what either term actually means. They certainly have no idea what the term capitalist actually means now what Adam Smith was trying to achieve.

All they do is whine and hope that someone will give them everything they desire while not giving to others they feel are undeserving. All while deceiving themselves that they are independent individuals supporting themselves outside all that exists and all that has gone before.

Back to the good old days when only white male protestants who own landed estates have any rights or benefits of the wealth society and all the people create.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., pawnedmyrolex <no_reply@> wrote:

Reminds me of the new Lib movie remake: "Dependence Day"

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., "zimowski@" <zimowski@> wrote:

Those who re-elected Obama now need to eat his dog food.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., spitzerisnoweiner <no_reply@> wrote:

Soooo glad I never joined a union...

This is a bad re-distribution of wealth for sure.

OK, now tell us what ya did at IBM!



--- In ibmpensionissues@..., "Rick b Cool" <rickboehme@> wrote:

Perhaps this thread can get back on topic without the radical reactionary rhetoric firmly grounded in delusions.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., "Rick b Cool" <rickboehme@> wrote:

WOW.

This forum has turned into just another radical reactionary shithole. Completely off topic. Yet another internet place for delusions, distortions, and lies.

Fact: The full text of the ACA was available almost the whole time. Obviously less the changes currently being proposed and discussed.

Fact: The people who do this kind of whining are exclusively completely self centered anti-social morons who don't consider all the benefits they receive at others expense, or the great benefits of have a great society that supports all the people, grows the economy, and increases the standard of living. They simply dream of how good it would be if they retained everything they have and get and somehow didn't have to pay for any of it. All the advances of society and technology, the vast bulk of which they had nothing to do with. I am quite sure they use words like socialist and communist and have no idea what either term actually means. They certainly have no idea what the term capitalist actually means now what Adam Smith was trying to achieve.

All they do is whine and hope that someone will give them everything they desire while not giving to others they feel are undeserving. All while deceiving themselves that they are independent individuals supporting themselves outside all that exists and all that has gone before.

Back to the good old days when only white male protestants who own landed estates have any rights or benefits of the wealth society and all the people create.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., pawnedmyrolex <no_reply@> wrote:

Reminds me of the new Lib movie remake: "Dependence Day"

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., "zimowski@" <zimowski@> wrote:

Those who re-elected Obama now need to eat his dog food.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., spitzerisnoweiner <no_reply@> wrote:

Soooo glad I never joined a union...

This is a bad re-distribution of wealth for sure.

?

Sorry. Not me.

However, you did prove my point.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., buckwildbeemer wrote:
>
> OK, now tell us what ya did at IBM!
>
>
>
> --- In ibmpensionissues@..., "Rick b Cool" wrote:
> >
> > Perhaps this thread can get back on topic without the radical reactionary rhetoric firmly grounded in delusions.
> >
> > --- In ibmpensionissues@..., "Rick b Cool" wrote:
> > >
> > > WOW.
> > >
> > > This forum has turned into just another radical reactionary shithole. Completely off topic. Yet another internet place for delusions, distortions, and lies.
> > >
> > > Fact: The full text of the ACA was available almost the whole time. Obviously less the changes currently being proposed and discussed.
> > >
> > > Fact: The people who do this kind of whining are exclusively completely self centered anti-social morons who don't consider all the benefits they receive at others expense, or the great benefits of have a great society that supports all the people, grows the economy, and increases the standard of living. They simply dream of how good it would be if they retained everything they have and get and somehow didn't have to pay for any of it. All the advances of society and technology, the vast bulk of which they had nothing to do with. I am quite sure they use words like socialist and communist and have no idea what either term actually means. They certainly have no idea what the term capitalist actually means now what Adam Smith was trying to achieve.
> > >
> > > All they do is whine and hope that someone will give them everything they desire while not giving to others they feel are undeserving. All while deceiving themselves that they are independent individuals supporting themselves outside all that exists and all that has gone before.
> > >
> > > Back to the good old days when only white male protestants who own landed estates have any rights or benefits of the wealth society and all the people create.
> > >
> > > --- In ibmpensionissues@..., pawnedmyrolex wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Reminds me of the new Lib movie remake: "Dependence Day"
> > > >
> > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@..., "zimowski@" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Those who re-elected Obama now need to eat his dog food.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@..., spitzerisnoweiner wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Soooo glad I never joined a union...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is a bad re-distribution of wealth for sure.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

ColleaguesI think you are dreaming if you think that ACA or a single payer will be the answer to the healthcare. The first thing is Medicare and Medicaid is a single payer for many of us who have retired.? It is reasonably price. The issue is not the cost, but finding a doctor who accepts Medicare / Medicaid Patients. The law cannot force a doctor to work at a specified price. Otherwise it is slavery. So he can legally refuse to accept patients as long as he does not discriminate. A doctor determines what he is willing to accept in payment for his service. There are not enough doctors to treat everyone.Today, a doctor now asks "Do you have insurance and with whom?" before he is willing to even accept you as a patient. Some will advise you upfront that they expect payment when services are render and they post such a sign in their office. There are many who will pay upfront to be treated by the doctor of their choice and who has an excellent reputation.Many doctors, in the New York City and Westchester County are not accepting Medicare / Medicaid patients.? The reason is that the government reimbursement is to low. If a doctor accepts a Medicare patient, he must also take Medicaid patients.? A medicaid patient pays nothing, not even the 20% a Medicare patient pays. A doctor receives about 65% of the reimbursement he gets for treating Medicare patients - so he refuses to treat either. The reimbursement the doctor receives from the government does not cover his costs especially his malpractice insurance so why accept Medicare or Medicaid patients.In Westchester, a nearby hospital closed because a majority of their patients where under Medicaid and they went bankrupt. There also have been some hospital closing in New York City and the wait in emergency room has increase in the other hospitals.Even if you have private or company insurance, like my daughter who has a healthcare insurance policy from her company listed on the New York Stock Exchange, was told by her doctor, he does not accept any insurance.? She had to pay his fees with a credit card and when the doctor received payment from the insurance company (three months later), he gave her the amount he received. Her out of pocket costs was 40% of the fee.? This is not the case with the Hospital but with the doctors.As you can see, it does not matter what insurance you have, if no doctor, other than a hospital, is willing to accept it, what good is insurance. So dream on about ACA and a single payer. You may have the reasonably priced insurance you want but it won't by you medical services if a doctor does not accept it.From a retiree who is under Medicare----- Original Message -----From: Danny Baptista Date: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 12:40 pmSubject: Re: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive Consequences From ObamacareTo: ibmpensionissues@...














?












Rick, thank you. I've also been fed up
with the misinformed reactionary rhetoric from this site that I
find in my inbox often these days. An FYI to you all: I'm looking
forward to increased access to health care that is not quite as
expensive and not quite as much a rip-off, and I welcome the ACA
as an incremental and progressive step towards single payer.


?


Sorry. Not me.

However, you did prove my point.

--- In ibmpensionissues@...,
buckwildbeemer <no_reply@> wrote:
>
> OK, now tell us what ya did at IBM!
>
>
>
> --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
"Rick b Cool" <rickboehme@> wrote:
> >
> > Perhaps this thread can get back on topic
without the radical reactionary rhetoric firmly grounded
in delusions.
> >
> > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
"Rick b Cool" <rickboehme@> wrote:
> > >
> > > WOW.
> > >
> > > This forum has turned into just another
radical reactionary shithole. Completely off topic. Yet
another internet place for delusions, distortions, and
lies.
> > >
> > > Fact: The full text of the ACA was
available almost the whole time. Obviously less the
changes currently being proposed and discussed.
> > >
> > > Fact: The people who do this kind of
whining are exclusively completely self centered
anti-social morons who don't consider all the benefits
they receive at others expense, or the great benefits of
have a great society that supports all the people, grows
the economy, and increases the standard of living. They
simply dream of how good it would be if they retained
everything they have and get and somehow didn't have to
pay for any of it. All the advances of society and
technology, the vast bulk of which they had nothing to do
with. I am quite sure they use words like socialist and
communist and have no idea what either term actually
means. They certainly have no idea what the term
capitalist actually means now what Adam Smith was trying
to achieve.
> > >
> > > All they do is whine and hope that someone
will give them everything they desire while not giving to
others they feel are undeserving. All while deceiving
themselves that they are independent individuals
supporting themselves outside all that exists and all that
has gone before.
> > >
> > > Back to the good old days when only white
male protestants who own landed estates have any rights or
benefits of the wealth society and all the people create.
> > >
> > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
pawnedmyrolex <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Reminds me of the new Lib movie
remake: "Dependence Day"
> > > >
> > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
"zimowski@" <zimowski@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Those who re-elected Obama now
need to eat his dog food.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
spitzerisnoweiner <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Soooo glad I never joined a
union...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is a bad
re-distribution of wealth for sure.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
























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Very good. Thanks for the analysis. However, none of what you said has anything at all to do with ACA. Yes, some doctors refuse Medicare. Some refuse all insurance. They have done so for an extremely long time. Some demand cash payment in advance and them reimburse when insurance pays them. They have done so for a very long time.

No ACA is far, far from a perfect plan. It is something which was never wanted by those who believe in universal health care. It was a proposal that was proposed by conservative Republicans and only abandoned as a political maneuver against a President they wanted to fail at any cost to the people of the United States. The one strategy which the modern Republican leadership has carries out extremely consistently at great cost to the American people.

Also, from a purely social perspective. It clearly looks as if you said that we need to have access to good health care severely limited to more wealthy individuals because their is a shortage of doctors. People do reveal their self centered nature while entirely ignoring the fact that most doctors are educated at the expense of the people of the United States through grants, subsidies, and delayed low interest loans. No one pays the full free market capitalist price of their healthcare. Though, one must admit that in some arenas, such a patent drugs, they do pay monopolistic prices.

Healthcare in this country is a highly complex system with many interdependencies. The idiotic perspective is that some of us deserve good healthcare more than others of us.

Now as I said previously. The real issue on this forum is getting back on topic. We don't need the political bullshit of the loud mouthed Obama haters who will say anything true or false or irrelevant.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., KenSP@ wrote:

ColleaguesI think you are dreaming if you think that ACA or a single payer will be the answer to the healthcare. The first thing is Medicare and Medicaid is a single payer for many of us who have retired.? It is reasonably price. The issue is not the cost, but finding a doctor who accepts Medicare / Medicaid Patients. The law cannot force a doctor to work at a specified price. Otherwise it is slavery. So he can legally refuse to accept patients as long as he does not discriminate. A doctor determines what he is willing to accept in payment for his service. There are not enough doctors to treat everyone.Today, a doctor now asks "Do you have insurance and with whom?" before he is willing to even accept you as a patient. Some will advise you upfront that they expect payment when services are render and they post such a sign in their office. There are many who will pay upfront to be treated by the doctor of their choice and who has an excellent reputation.Many doctors, in the New York City and Westchester County are not accepting Medicare / Medicaid patients.? The reason is that the government reimbursement is to low. If a doctor accepts a Medicare patient, he must also take Medicaid patients.? A medicaid patient pays nothing, not even the 20% a Medicare patient pays. A doctor receives about 65% of the reimbursement he gets for treating Medicare patients - so he refuses to treat either. The reimbursement the doctor receives from the government does not cover his costs especially his malpractice insurance so why accept Medicare or Medicaid patients.In Westchester, a nearby hospital closed because a majority of their patients where under Medicaid and they went bankrupt. There also have been some hospital closing in New York City and the wait in emergency room has increase in the other hospitals.Even if you have private or company insurance, like my daughter who has a healthcare insurance policy from her company listed on the New York Stock Exchange, was told by her doctor, he does not accept any insurance.? She had to pay his fees with a credit card and when the doctor received payment from the insurance company (three months later), he gave her the amount he received. Her out of pocket costs was 40% of the fee.? This is not the case with the Hospital but with the doctors.As you can see, it does not matter what insurance you have, if no doctor, other than a hospital, is willing to accept it, what good is insurance. So dream on about ACA and a single payer. You may have the reasonably priced insurance you want but it won't by you medical services if a doctor does not accept it.From a retiree who is under Medicare----- Original Message -----From: Danny Baptista Date: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 12:40 pmSubject: Re: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive Consequences From ObamacareTo: ibmpensionissues@...














?












Rick, thank you. I've also been fed up
with the misinformed reactionary rhetoric from this site that I
find in my inbox often these days. An FYI to you all: I'm looking
forward to increased access to health care that is not quite as
expensive and not quite as much a rip-off, and I welcome the ACA
as an incremental and progressive step towards single payer.


?


Sorry. Not me.

However, you did prove my point.

--- In ibmpensionissues@...,
buckwildbeemer <no_reply@> wrote:
>
> OK, now tell us what ya did at IBM!
>
>
>
> --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
"Rick b Cool" <rickboehme@> wrote:
> >
> > Perhaps this thread can get back on topic
without the radical reactionary rhetoric firmly grounded
in delusions.
> >
> > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
"Rick b Cool" <rickboehme@> wrote:
> > >
> > > WOW.
> > >
> > > This forum has turned into just another
radical reactionary shithole. Completely off topic. Yet
another internet place for delusions, distortions, and
lies.
> > >
> > > Fact: The full text of the ACA was
available almost the whole time. Obviously less the
changes currently being proposed and discussed.
> > >
> > > Fact: The people who do this kind of
whining are exclusively completely self centered
anti-social morons who don't consider all the benefits
they receive at others expense, or the great benefits of
have a great society that supports all the people, grows
the economy, and increases the standard of living. They
simply dream of how good it would be if they retained
everything they have and get and somehow didn't have to
pay for any of it. All the advances of society and
technology, the vast bulk of which they had nothing to do
with. I am quite sure they use words like socialist and
communist and have no idea what either term actually
means. They certainly have no idea what the term
capitalist actually means now what Adam Smith was trying
to achieve.
> > >
> > > All they do is whine and hope that someone
will give them everything they desire while not giving to
others they feel are undeserving. All while deceiving
themselves that they are independent individuals
supporting themselves outside all that exists and all that
has gone before.
> > >
> > > Back to the good old days when only white
male protestants who own landed estates have any rights or
benefits of the wealth society and all the people create.
> > >
> > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
pawnedmyrolex <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Reminds me of the new Lib movie
remake: "Dependence Day"
> > > >
> > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
"zimowski@" <zimowski@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Those who re-elected Obama now
need to eat his dog food.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
spitzerisnoweiner <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Soooo glad I never joined a
union...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is a bad
re-distribution of wealth for sure.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
























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There was something in the news today about a Senate hearing on drug prices. How generic manufacturers are forbidden to use cheaper formulations and that in the USA, we pay the difference to the tune of many billions of dollars in extra medical expenses. One thing that is also true is that many of the generic manufacturers are also offshore so the drug companies increased their profits through the elimination of American jobs already. That not being nearly enough, they force generic manufacturers to stick to more expensive formulations. American corporations robbing the middle-class of their jobs while sticking them with higher medical costs.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., "Rick b Cool" <rickb_cool@> wrote:

Very good. Thanks for the analysis. However, none of what you said has anything at all to do with ACA. Yes, some doctors refuse Medicare. Some refuse all insurance. They have done so for an extremely long time. Some demand cash payment in advance and them reimburse when insurance pays them. They have done so for a very long time.

No ACA is far, far from a perfect plan. It is something which was never wanted by those who believe in universal health care. It was a proposal that was proposed by conservative Republicans and only abandoned as a political maneuver against a President they wanted to fail at any cost to the people of the United States. The one strategy which the modern Republican leadership has carries out extremely consistently at great cost to the American people.

Also, from a purely social perspective. It clearly looks as if you said that we need to have access to good health care severely limited to more wealthy individuals because their is a shortage of doctors. People do reveal their self centered nature while entirely ignoring the fact that most doctors are educated at the expense of the people of the United States through grants, subsidies, and delayed low interest loans. No one pays the full free market capitalist price of their healthcare. Though, one must admit that in some arenas, such a patent drugs, they do pay monopolistic prices.

Healthcare in this country is a highly complex system with many interdependencies. The idiotic perspective is that some of us deserve good healthcare more than others of us.

Now as I said previously. The real issue on this forum is getting back on topic. We don't need the political bullshit of the loud mouthed Obama haters who will say anything true or false or irrelevant.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., KenSP@ wrote:

ColleaguesI think you are dreaming if you think that ACA or a single payer will be the answer to the healthcare. The first thing is Medicare and Medicaid is a single payer for many of us who have retired.? It is reasonably price. The issue is not the cost, but finding a doctor who accepts Medicare / Medicaid Patients. The law cannot force a doctor to work at a specified price. Otherwise it is slavery. So he can legally refuse to accept patients as long as he does not discriminate. A doctor determines what he is willing to accept in payment for his service. There are not enough doctors to treat everyone.Today, a doctor now asks "Do you have insurance and with whom?" before he is willing to even accept you as a patient. Some will advise you upfront that they expect payment when services are render and they post such a sign in their office. There are many who will pay upfront to be treated by the doctor of their choice and who has an excellent reputation.Many doctors, in the New York City and Westchester County are not accepting Medicare / Medicaid patients.? The reason is that the government reimbursement is to low. If a doctor accepts a Medicare patient, he must also take Medicaid patients.? A medicaid patient pays nothing, not even the 20% a Medicare patient pays. A doctor receives about 65% of the reimbursement he gets for treating Medicare patients - so he refuses to treat either. The reimbursement the doctor receives from the government does not cover his costs especially his malpractice insurance so why accept Medicare or Medicaid patients.In Westchester, a nearby hospital closed because a majority of their patients where under Medicaid and they went bankrupt. There also have been some hospital closing in New York City and the wait in emergency room has increase in the other hospitals.Even if you have private or company insurance, like my daughter who has a healthcare insurance policy from her company listed on the New York Stock Exchange, was told by her doctor, he does not accept any insurance.? She had to pay his fees with a credit card and when the doctor received payment from the insurance company (three months later), he gave her the amount he received. Her out of pocket costs was 40% of the fee.? This is not the case with the Hospital but with the doctors.As you can see, it does not matter what insurance you have, if no doctor, other than a hospital, is willing to accept it, what good is insurance. So dream on about ACA and a single payer. You may have the reasonably priced insurance you want but it won't by you medical services if a doctor does not accept it.From a retiree who is under Medicare----- Original Message -----From: Danny Baptista Date: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 12:40 pmSubject: Re: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive Consequences From ObamacareTo: ibmpensionissues@...














?












Rick, thank you. I've also been fed up
with the misinformed reactionary rhetoric from this site that I
find in my inbox often these days. An FYI to you all: I'm looking
forward to increased access to health care that is not quite as
expensive and not quite as much a rip-off, and I welcome the ACA
as an incremental and progressive step towards single payer.


?


Sorry. Not me.

However, you did prove my point.

--- In ibmpensionissues@...,
buckwildbeemer <no_reply@> wrote:
>
> OK, now tell us what ya did at IBM!
>
>
>
> --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
"Rick b Cool" <rickboehme@> wrote:
> >
> > Perhaps this thread can get back on topic
without the radical reactionary rhetoric firmly grounded
in delusions.
> >
> > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
"Rick b Cool" <rickboehme@> wrote:
> > >
> > > WOW.
> > >
> > > This forum has turned into just another
radical reactionary shithole. Completely off topic. Yet
another internet place for delusions, distortions, and
lies.
> > >
> > > Fact: The full text of the ACA was
available almost the whole time. Obviously less the
changes currently being proposed and discussed.
> > >
> > > Fact: The people who do this kind of
whining are exclusively completely self centered
anti-social morons who don't consider all the benefits
they receive at others expense, or the great benefits of
have a great society that supports all the people, grows
the economy, and increases the standard of living. They
simply dream of how good it would be if they retained
everything they have and get and somehow didn't have to
pay for any of it. All the advances of society and
technology, the vast bulk of which they had nothing to do
with. I am quite sure they use words like socialist and
communist and have no idea what either term actually
means. They certainly have no idea what the term
capitalist actually means now what Adam Smith was trying
to achieve.
> > >
> > > All they do is whine and hope that someone
will give them everything they desire while not giving to
others they feel are undeserving. All while deceiving
themselves that they are independent individuals
supporting themselves outside all that exists and all that
has gone before.
> > >
> > > Back to the good old days when only white
male protestants who own landed estates have any rights or
benefits of the wealth society and all the people create.
> > >
> > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
pawnedmyrolex <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Reminds me of the new Lib movie
remake: "Dependence Day"
> > > >
> > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
"zimowski@" <zimowski@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Those who re-elected Obama now
need to eat his dog food.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
spitzerisnoweiner <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Soooo glad I never joined a
union...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is a bad
re-distribution of wealth for sure.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
























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ColleaguesI think you are dreaming if you think that ACA or a single payer will be the answer to the healthcare. The first thing is Medicare and Medicaid is a single payer for many of us who have retired.? It is reasonably price. The issue is not the cost, but finding a doctor who accepts Medicare / Medicaid Patients. The law cannot force a doctor to work at a specified price. Otherwise it is slavery. So he can legally refuse to accept patients as long as he does not discriminate. A doctor determines what he is willing to accept in payment for his service. There are not enough doctors to treat everyone.Today, a doctor now asks "Do you have insurance and with whom?" before he is willing to even accept you as a patient. Some will advise you upfront that they expect payment when services are render and they post such a sign in their office. There are many who will pay upfront to be treated by the doctor of their choice and who has an excellent reputation.Many doctors, in the New York City and Westchester County are not accepting Medicare / Medicaid patients.? The reason is that the government reimbursement is to low. If a doctor accepts a Medicare patient, he must also take Medicaid patients.? A medicaid patient pays nothing, not even the 20% a Medicare patient pays. A doctor receives about 65% of the reimbursement he gets for treating Medicare patients - so he refuses to treat either. The reimbursement the doctor receives from the government does not cover his costs especially his malpractice insurance so why accept Medicare or Medicaid patients.In Westchester, a nearby hospital closed because a majority of their patients where under Medicaid and they went bankrupt. There also have been some hospital closing in New York City and the wait in emergency room has increase in the other hospitals.Even if you have private or company insurance, like my daughter who has a healthcare insurance policy from her company listed on the New York Stock Exchange, was told by her doctor, he does not accept any insurance.? She had to pay his fees with a credit card and when the doctor received payment from the insurance company (three months later), he gave her the amount he received. Her out of pocket costs was 40% of the fee.? This is not the case with the Hospital but with the doctors.As you can see, it does not matter what insurance you have, if no doctor, other than a hospital, is willing to accept it, what good is insurance. So dream on about ACA and a single payer. You may have the reasonably priced insurance you want but it won't by you medical services if a doctor does not accept it.From a retiree who is under Medicare----- Original Message -----From: Danny Baptista Date: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 12:40 pmSubject: Re: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive Consequences From ObamacareTo: ibmpensionissues@...














?












Rick, thank you. I've also been fed up
with the misinformed reactionary rhetoric from this site that I
find in my inbox often these days. An FYI to you all: I'm looking
forward to increased access to health care that is not quite as
expensive and not quite as much a rip-off, and I welcome the ACA
as an incremental and progressive step towards single payer.


?


Sorry. Not me.

However, you did prove my point.

--- In ibmpensionissues@...,
buckwildbeemer <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> OK, now tell us what ya did at IBM!
>
>
>
> --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
"Rick b Cool" <rickboehme@> wrote:
> >
> > Perhaps this thread can get back on topic
without the radical reactionary rhetoric firmly grounded
in delusions.
> >
> > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
"Rick b Cool" <rickboehme@> wrote:
> > >
> > > WOW.
> > >
> > > This forum has turned into just another
radical reactionary shithole. Completely off topic. Yet
another internet place for delusions, distortions, and
lies.
> > >
> > > Fact: The full text of the ACA was
available almost the whole time. Obviously less the
changes currently being proposed and discussed.
> > >
> > > Fact: The people who do this kind of
whining are exclusively completely self centered
anti-social morons who don't consider all the benefits
they receive at others expense, or the great benefits of
have a great society that supports all the people, grows
the economy, and increases the standard of living. They
simply dream of how good it would be if they retained
everything they have and get and somehow didn't have to
pay for any of it. All the advances of society and
technology, the vast bulk of which they had nothing to do
with. I am quite sure they use words like socialist and
communist and have no idea what either term actually
means. They certainly have no idea what the term
capitalist actually means now what Adam Smith was trying
to achieve.
> > >
> > > All they do is whine and hope that someone
will give them everything they desire while not giving to
others they feel are undeserving. All while deceiving
themselves that they are independent individuals
supporting themselves outside all that exists and all that
has gone before.
> > >
> > > Back to the good old days when only white
male protestants who own landed estates have any rights or
benefits of the wealth society and all the people create.
> > >
> > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
pawnedmyrolex <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Reminds me of the new Lib movie
remake: "Dependence Day"
> > > >
> > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
"zimowski@" <zimowski@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Those who re-elected Obama now
need to eat his dog food.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
spitzerisnoweiner <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Soooo glad I never joined a
union...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is a bad
re-distribution of wealth for sure.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
























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But if everyone were covered under a single payer, then practices go out of business if they refuse to accept payment from single payers, correct? Or, the prices would be so low that they cannot continue to pay for their liabilities such as homes, cars and expenses. This is the part where very good doctors with lower financial expectations from places like the Philippines and India set up shop in the usa...ACA (regrettably not single payer) will probably necessitate this anyway due to high demand. They would be here now except for the arbitrarily protective visa limitations that could be liberalized, probably by executive order.

Dream onToday in the New York area doctors are not accepting insurances of any kind.? They are not going out of business.? Their approach is that they charge you their fee and then give to you whatever they receive from the insurance companies.? This is not permitted by Medicare/Medicaid and reimbursement is lower than that which is given by insurance companiesThese doctors are doing fine because someone always has the cash and willing to pay.? For IBM, I live in Europe for five years.? In England, and France to get an appointment with any doctor all you had to tell him you are paying cash.? In the UK, there is? no waiting time. However, UK medical system denies patients cancer drugs because of cost.? Deaths from cancer a higher than that of the US. Check the facts. In France, the American Hospital which accepts no insurance either from the French government or any one else.? They will fill out all the forms and give you whatever they collect by crediting the credit card you use.? Under your thinking they would go out of business if they did not accept payment from the single payer and French insurance companies who pay the supplement.? They are full and it is primary French citizens who want to be treated with best up to dated equipment and drugs.For IBM I lived under both systems for a period of five years.? The US media will not highlight this, neither will those who support European social heath care.? Ask yourself, why did the Prime Minister of Canada come to US - Florida for treatment? rather than being treated in Canada..? Why did the Canadian government stop insurance companies from selling a policy that pay for a Canadians?airfare trip and medical treatment in the US.Have you visited hospitals in countries like France and asked yourself would you like to be treated there?? I think not - reality versus dream land.I am not under ACA?but Medicare which is going broke.? Do you think this new plan will not have the same financial issues.RegardsIBMer?who has lived under European Social Medicine.----- Original Message -----From: dan?finn?Date: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 10:02 pmSubject: Re: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive Consequences From ObamacareTo: ibmpensionissues@...> But if everyone were covered under a single payer, then > practices go out of business if they refuse to accept payment > from single payers, correct? Or, the prices would be so low that > they cannot continue to pay for their liabilities such as homes, > cars and expenses. This is the part where very good doctors with > lower financial expectations from places like the Philippines > and India set up shop in the usa...ACA?(regrettably not single > payer) will probably necessitate this anyway due to high demand. > They would be here now except for the arbitrarily protective > visa limitations that could be liberalized, probably by > executive order.> > KenSP@... wrote:> > >ColleaguesI?think you are dreaming if you think that ACA?or a > single payer will be the answer to the healthcare. The first > thing is Medicare and Medicaid is a single payer for many of us > who have retired.? It is reasonably price. The issue is not the > cost, but finding a doctor who accepts Medicare / Medicaid > Patients. The law cannot force a doctor to work at a specified > price. Otherwise it is slavery. So he can legally refuse to > accept patients as long as he does not discriminate. A doctor > determines what he is willing to accept in payment for his > service. There are not enough doctors to treat everyone.Today, a > doctor now asks "Do you have insurance and with whom?" before he > is willing to even accept you as a patient. Some will advise you > upfront that they expect payment when services are render and > they post such a sign in their office. There are many who will > pay upfront to be treated by the doctor of their choice and who > has an excellent reputation.Many doctors, in the New York City > and Westchester County are not accepting Medicare / Medicaid > patients.? The reason is that the government reimbursement is to > low. If a doctor accepts a Medicare patient, he must also take > Medicaid patients.? A medicaid patient pays nothing, not even > the 20% a Medicare patient pays. A doctor receives about 65% of > the reimbursement he gets for treating Medicare patients - so he > refuses to treat either. The reimbursement the doctor receives > from the government does not cover his costs especially his > malpractice insurance so why accept Medicare or Medicaid > patients.In Westchester, a nearby hospital closed because a > majority of their patients where under Medicaid and they went > bankrupt. There also have been some hospital closing in New York > City and the wait in emergency room has increase in the other > hospitals.Even if you have private or company insurance, like my > daughter who has a healthcare insurance policy from her company > listed on the New York Stock Exchange, was told by her doctor, > he does not accept any insurance.? She had to pay his fees with > a credit card and when the doctor received payment from the > insurance company (three months later), he gave her the amount > he received. Her out of pocket costs was 40% of the fee.? This > is not the case with the Hospital but with the doctors.As you > can see, it does not matter what insurance you have, if no > doctor, other than a hospital, is willing to accept it, what > good is insurance. So dream on about ACA and a single payer. You > may have the reasonably priced insurance you want but it won't > by you medical services if a doctor does not accept it.From a > retiree who is under Medicare----- Original Message -----From: > Danny Baptista Date: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 12:40 pmSubject: Re: > [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive Consequences From > ObamacareTo: ibmpensionissues@...> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >?> >> >> >> > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rick, thank you. I've also been fed up> > with the misinformed reactionary rhetoric from this site > that I> > find in my inbox often these days. An FYI to you all: I'm > looking> forward to increased access to health care that is > not quite as> > expensive and not quite as much a rip-off, and I welcome > the ACA> > as an incremental and progressive step towards single payer.> > > > > > ?> > > > > > Sorry. Not me.> > > > However, you did prove my point.> > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,> > buckwildbeemer wrote:> > >> > > OK, now tell us what ya did at IBM!> > > > > > > > > > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,> > "Rick b Cool" wrote:> > > >> > > > Perhaps this thread can get back on topic> > without the radical reactionary rhetoric firmly > grounded> in delusions.> > > > > > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,> > "Rick b Cool" wrote:> > > > >> > > > > WOW.> > > > > > > > > > This forum has turned into just another> > radical reactionary shithole. Completely off > topic. Yet> > another internet place for delusions, > distortions, and> > lies.> > > > > > > > > > Fact: The full text of the ACA was> > available almost the whole time. Obviously less the> > changes currently being proposed and discussed. > > > > > > > > > > Fact: The people who do this kind of> > whining are exclusively completely self centered> > anti-social morons who don't consider all the benefits> > they receive at others expense, or the great > benefits of> > have a great society that supports all the > people, grows> > the economy, and increases the standard of > living. They> > simply dream of how good it would be if they retained> > everything they have and get and somehow didn't > have to> > pay for any of it. All the advances of society and> > technology, the vast bulk of which they had > nothing to do> > with. I am quite sure they use words like > socialist and> > communist and have no idea what either term actually> > means. They certainly have no idea what the term> > capitalist actually means now what Adam Smith was > trying> to achieve.> > > > > > > > > > All they do is whine and hope that someone> > will give them everything they desire while not > giving to> > others they feel are undeserving. All while deceiving> > themselves that they are independent individuals> > supporting themselves outside all that exists and > all that> > has gone before.> > > > > > > > > > Back to the good old days when only white> > male protestants who own landed estates have any > rights or> > benefits of the wealth society and all the people > create.> > > > > > > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,> > pawnedmyrolex wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Reminds me of the new Lib movie> > remake: "Dependence Day"> > > > > > > > > > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,> > "zimowski@" wrote:> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Those who re-elected Obama now> > need to eat his dog food.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,> > spitzerisnoweiner wrote:> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > consequences-from-obamacare/?mod=WSJBlog> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Soooo glad I never joined a> > union...> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a bad> > re-distribution of wealth for sure.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > >> > > > > >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > >> >> >> >> >> >> >>

If ACA?is so great why did Congress and the President exempt themselves, their families, and staffers from the provisions of ACA? No one seems to talk about that. Why didn't they exempt national corporation who have health care?insurance for employees? I was happier with my IBM coverage even though it was expensive than Medicare.As to my previous note, you have totally missed my point.? The point I was making is it does not matter if you have or do not have insurance including ACA? If doctors do not want to accept your insurance, you need a credit card or money to obtain medical services. It does not matter if you have ACA, Medicare, Medicaid or a company health insurance policy you need cash to at least get treatment.Your focus is totally misplaced. You can have medical insurance but if you cannot find someone who accepts it,what good is it? What about the quality of service - Are all doctors equal?Isn't Medicare a single payer? As a retired person who is in his 70's I LIVE MEDICARE EVERY DAY OF MY LIFE. My comments are not theory, political discussion or as do gooder?but are based on real life experience which is shared by my friends and neighbors who are the same age.I do not see ACA?as the answer.? Since like Medicare, in order to cover so many people and keep rates low, insurance companies or the government will have to reduce the reimbursement to doctors. I have gone through the issue of trying to find a doctor who accepts Medicare.? Based on actual personal experience when finally finding one, I know that there is a difference between a doctor who accepts Medicare and one that does not.? It is the amount of time the doctor spends with you. A Medicare doctor will spend five minutes or less with your medical issue and you end up dealing primarily with a nurse on everything. A Medicare?doctor is earning his income by seeing volumes of patients and quality of the service falls. No Doctor can survive on Medicare/Medicaid reimbursements for which he has to wait for three months before he gets paid. Not so with a doctor who does not accept insurances. His practice is built on reputation.Have you compared the Canadian Plan verses the ACA?you are supporting which DOES NOT effect me.? In Canada, you are assigned a primary care doctor who determines your medical needs and the test you need to take.? In the ACA, a nurse is made your primary care person who determines the tests you need and whether you should or should not see the doctor.The ACA?has only effected me when funds were taken out of Medicare to create the ACA.? My Medicare?doctor told me that I should do the two knee replacement this year since in 2014 under Medicare I will be paying a larger share for these operations.Remember what was said, "You have to pass the law, to know what is in it" I think you have to live the law. to see what you have lost.RegardsFreon?a retired person who needs Medicare.not ACA----- Original Message -----From: Rick b Cool Date: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 6:54 pmSubject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive Consequences From ObamacareTo: ibmpensionissues@...> Very good. Thanks for the analysis. However, none of what you > said has anything at all to do with ACA. Yes, some doctors > refuse Medicare. Some refuse all insurance. They have done so > for an extremely long time. Some demand cash payment in advance > and them reimburse when insurance pays them. They have done so > for a very long time.> > No ACA?is far, far from a perfect plan. It is something which > was never wanted by those who believe in universal health care. > It was a proposal that was proposed by conservative Republicans > and only abandoned as a political maneuver against a President > they wanted to fail at any cost to the people of the United > States. The one strategy which the modern Republican leadership > has carries out extremely consistently at great cost to the > American people.> > Also, from a purely social perspective. It clearly looks as if > you said that we need to have access to good health care > severely limited to more wealthy individuals because their is a > shortage of doctors. People do reveal their self centered nature > while entirely ignoring the fact that most doctors are educated > at the expense of the people of the United States through > grants, subsidies, and delayed low interest loans. No one pays > the full free market capitalist price of their healthcare. > Though, one must admit that in some arenas, such a patent drugs, > they do pay monopolistic prices.> > Healthcare in this country is a highly complex system with many > interdependencies. The idiotic perspective is that some of us > deserve good healthcare more than others of us.> > Now as I said previously. The real issue on this forum is > getting back on topic. We don't need the political bullshit of > the loud mouthed Obama haters who will say anything true or > false or irrelevant. > > --- In ibmpensionissues@..., KenSP@ wrote:> >> > ColleaguesI think you are dreaming if you think that ACA or a > single payer will be the answer to the healthcare. The first > thing is Medicare and Medicaid is a single payer for many of us > who have retired.? It is reasonably price. The issue is not the > cost, but finding a doctor who accepts Medicare / Medicaid > Patients. The law cannot force a doctor to work at a specified > price. Otherwise it is slavery. So he can legally refuse to > accept patients as long as he does not discriminate. A doctor > determines what he is willing to accept in payment for his > service. There are not enough doctors to treat everyone.Today, a > doctor now asks "Do you have insurance and with whom?" before he > is willing to even accept you as a patient. Some will advise you > upfront that they expect payment when services are render and > they post such a sign in their office. There are many who will > pay upfront to be treated by the doctor of their choice and who > has an excellent reputation.Many doctors, in the New York City > and Westchester County are not accepting Medicare / Medicaid > patients.? The reason is that the government reimbursement is to > low. If a doctor accepts a Medicare patient, he must also take > Medicaid patients.? A medicaid patient pays nothing, not even > the 20% a Medicare patient pays. A doctor receives about 65% of > the reimbursement he gets for treating Medicare patients - so he > refuses to treat either. The reimbursement the doctor receives > from the government does not cover his costs especially his > malpractice insurance so why accept Medicare or Medicaid > patients.In Westchester, a nearby hospital closed because a > majority of their patients where under Medicaid and they went > bankrupt. There also have been some hospital closing in New York > City and the wait in emergency room has increase in the other > hospitals.Even if you have private or company insurance, like my > daughter who has a healthcare insurance policy from her company > listed on the New York Stock Exchange, was told by her doctor, > he does not accept any insurance.? She had to pay his fees with > a credit card and when the doctor received payment from the > insurance company (three months later), he gave her the amount > he received. Her out of pocket costs was 40% of the fee.? This > is not the case with the Hospital but with the doctors.As you > can see, it does not matter what insurance you have, if no > doctor, other than a hospital, is willing to accept it, what > good is insurance. So dream on about ACA and a single payer. You > may have the reasonably priced insurance you want but it won't > by you medical services if a doctor does not accept it.From a > retiree who is under Medicare----- Original Message -----From: > Danny Baptista Date: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 12:40 pmSubject: Re: > [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive Consequences From > ObamacareTo: ibmpensionissues@...> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ?> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rick, thank you. I've also been fed up> > with the misinformed reactionary rhetoric from this site > that I> > find in my inbox often these days. An FYI to you all: > I'm looking> > forward to increased access to health care that is not > quite as> > expensive and not quite as much a rip-off, and I welcome > the ACA> > as an incremental and progressive step towards single payer.> > > > > > ?> > > > > > Sorry. Not me.> > > > However, you did prove my point.> > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,> > buckwildbeemer wrote:> > >> > > OK, now tell us what ya did at IBM!> > > > > > > > > > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,> > "Rick b Cool" wrote:> > > >> > > > Perhaps this thread can get back on topic> > without the radical reactionary rhetoric firmly > grounded> in delusions.> > > > > > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,> > "Rick b Cool" wrote:> > > > >> > > > > WOW.> > > > > > > > > > This forum has turned into just another> > radical reactionary shithole. Completely off > topic. Yet> > another internet place for delusions, > distortions, and> > lies.> > > > > > > > > > Fact: The full text of the ACA was> > available almost the whole time. Obviously less the> > changes currently being proposed and discussed. > > > > > > > > > > Fact: The people who do this kind of> > whining are exclusively completely self centered> > anti-social morons who don't consider all the benefits> > they receive at others expense, or the great > benefits of> > have a great society that supports all the > people, grows> > the economy, and increases the standard of > living. They> > simply dream of how good it would be if they retained> > everything they have and get and somehow didn't > have to> > pay for any of it. All the advances of society and> > technology, the vast bulk of which they had > nothing to do> > with. I am quite sure they use words like > socialist and> > communist and have no idea what either term actually> > means. They certainly have no idea what the term> > capitalist actually means now what Adam Smith > was trying> > to achieve.> > > > > > > > > > All they do is whine and hope that someone> > will give them everything they desire while not > giving to> > others they feel are undeserving. All while deceiving> > themselves that they are independent individuals> > supporting themselves outside all that exists > and all that> > has gone before.> > > > > > > > > > Back to the good old days when only white> > male protestants who own landed estates have any > rights or> > benefits of the wealth society and all the > people create.> > > > > > > > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,> > pawnedmyrolex wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Reminds me of the new Lib movie> > remake: "Dependence Day"> > > > > > > > > > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,> > "zimowski@" wrote:> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Those who re-elected Obama now> > need to eat his dog food.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,> > spitzerisnoweiner wrote:> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > consequences-from-obamacare/?mod=WSJBlog> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Soooo glad I never joined a> > union...> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a bad> > re-distribution of wealth for sure.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >

Really?

Government exempts itself from everything. Governments, federal and state exempt all their own vehicles from all regulations pertaining to vehicle construction and safety, including school buses.. It's a crock but had nothing to do with ACA.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., KenSP@ wrote:

If ACA?is so great why did Congress and the President exempt themselves, their families, and staffers from the provisions of ACA? No one seems to talk about that. Why didn't they exempt national corporation who have health care?insurance for employees? I was happier with my IBM coverage even though it was expensive than Medicare.As to my previous note, you have totally missed my point.? The point I was making is it does not matter if you have or do not have insurance including ACA? If doctors do not want to accept your insurance, you need a credit card or money to obtain medical services. It does not matter if you have ACA, Medicare, Medicaid or a company health insurance policy you need cash to at least get treatment.Your focus is totally misplaced. You can have medical insurance but if you cannot find someone who accepts it,what good is it? What about the quality of service - Are all doctors equal?Isn't Medicare a single payer? As a retired person who is in his 70's I LIVE MEDICARE EVERY DAY OF MY LIFE. My comments are not theory, political discussion or as do gooder?but are based on real life experience which is shared by my friends and neighbors who are the same age.I do not see ACA?as the answer.? Since like Medicare, in order to cover so many people and keep rates low, insurance companies or the government will have to reduce the reimbursement to doctors. I have gone through the issue of trying to find a doctor who accepts Medicare.? Based on actual personal experience when finally finding one, I know that there is a difference between a doctor who accepts Medicare and one that does not.? It is the amount of time the doctor spends with you. A Medicare doctor will spend five minutes or less with your medical issue and you end up dealing primarily with a nurse on everything. A Medicare?doctor is earning his income by seeing volumes of patients and quality of the service falls. No Doctor can survive on Medicare/Medicaid reimbursements for which he has to wait for three months before he gets paid. Not so with a doctor who does not accept insurances. His practice is built on reputation.Have you compared the Canadian Plan verses the ACA?you are supporting which DOES NOT effect me.? In Canada, you are assigned a primary care doctor who determines your medical needs and the test you need to take.? In the ACA, a nurse is made your primary care person who determines the tests you need and whether you should or should not see the doctor.The ACA?has only effected me when funds were taken out of Medicare to create the ACA.? My Medicare?doctor told me that I should do the two knee replacement this year since in 2014 under Medicare I will be paying a larger share for these operations.Remember what was said, "You have to pass the law, to know what is in it" I think you have to live the law. to see what you have lost.RegardsFreon?a retired person who needs Medicare.not ACA----- Original Message -----From: Rick b Cool Date: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 6:54 pmSubject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive Consequences From ObamacareTo: ibmpensionissues@...> Very good. Thanks for the analysis. However, none of what you > said has anything at all to do with ACA. Yes, some doctors > refuse Medicare. Some refuse all insurance. They have done so > for an extremely long time. Some demand cash payment in advance > and them reimburse when insurance pays them. They have done so > for a very long time.> > No ACA?is far, far from a perfect plan. It is something which > was never wanted by those who believe in universal health care. > It was a proposal that was proposed by conservative Republicans > and only abandoned as a political maneuver against a President > they wanted to fail at any cost to the people of the United > States. The one strategy which the modern Republican leadership > has carries out extremely consistently at great cost to the > American people.> > Also, from a purely social perspective. It clearly looks as if > you said that we need to have access to good health care > severely limited to more wealthy individuals because their is a > shortage of doctors. People do reveal their self centered nature > while entirely ignoring the fact that most doctors are educated > at the expense of the people of the United States through > grants, subsidies, and delayed low interest loans. No one pays > the full free market capitalist price of their healthcare. > Though, one must admit that in some arenas, such a patent drugs, > they do pay monopolistic prices.> > Healthcare in this country is a highly complex system with many > interdependencies. The idiotic perspective is that some of us > deserve good healthcare more than others of us.> > Now as I said previously. The real issue on this forum is > getting back on topic. We don't need the political bullshit of > the loud mouthed Obama haters who will say anything true or > false or irrelevant. > > --- In ibmpensionissues@..., KenSP@ wrote:> >> > ColleaguesI think you are dreaming if you think that ACA or a > single payer will be the answer to the healthcare. The first > thing is Medicare and Medicaid is a single payer for many of us > who have retired.? It is reasonably price. The issue is not the > cost, but finding a doctor who accepts Medicare / Medicaid > Patients. The law cannot force a doctor to work at a specified > price. Otherwise it is slavery. So he can legally refuse to > accept patients as long as he does not discriminate. A doctor > determines what he is willing to accept in payment for his > service. There are not enough doctors to treat everyone.Today, a > doctor now asks "Do you have insurance and with whom?" before he > is willing to even accept you as a patient. Some will advise you > upfront that they expect payment when services are render and > they post such a sign in their office. There are many who will > pay upfront to be treated by the doctor of their choice and who > has an excellent reputation.Many doctors, in the New York City > and Westchester County are not accepting Medicare / Medicaid > patients.? The reason is that the government reimbursement is to > low. If a doctor accepts a Medicare patient, he must also take > Medicaid patients.? A medicaid patient pays nothing, not even > the 20% a Medicare patient pays. A doctor receives about 65% of > the reimbursement he gets for treating Medicare patients - so he > refuses to treat either. The reimbursement the doctor receives > from the government does not cover his costs especially his > malpractice insurance so why accept Medicare or Medicaid > patients.In Westchester, a nearby hospital closed because a > majority of their patients where under Medicaid and they went > bankrupt. There also have been some hospital closing in New York > City and the wait in emergency room has increase in the other > hospitals.Even if you have private or company insurance, like my > daughter who has a healthcare insurance policy from her company > listed on the New York Stock Exchange, was told by her doctor, > he does not accept any insurance.? She had to pay his fees with > a credit card and when the doctor received payment from the > insurance company (three months later), he gave her the amount > he received. Her out of pocket costs was 40% of the fee.? This > is not the case with the Hospital but with the doctors.As you > can see, it does not matter what insurance you have, if no > doctor, other than a hospital, is willing to accept it, what > good is insurance. So dream on about ACA and a single payer. You > may have the reasonably priced insurance you want but it won't > by you medical services if a doctor does not accept it.From a > retiree who is under Medicare----- Original Message -----From: > Danny Baptista Date: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 12:40 pmSubject: Re: > [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive Consequences From > ObamacareTo: ibmpensionissues@...> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ?> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rick, thank you. I've also been fed up> > with the misinformed reactionary rhetoric from this site > that I> > find in my inbox often these days. An FYI to you all: > I'm looking> > forward to increased access to health care that is not > quite as> > expensive and not quite as much a rip-off, and I welcome > the ACA> > as an incremental and progressive step towards single payer.> > > > > > ?> > > > > > Sorry. Not me.> > > > However, you did prove my point.> > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,> > buckwildbeemer wrote:> > >> > > OK, now tell us what ya did at IBM!> > > > > > > > > > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,> > "Rick b Cool" wrote:> > > >> > > > Perhaps this thread can get back on topic> > without the radical reactionary rhetoric firmly > grounded> in delusions.> > > > > > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,> > "Rick b Cool" wrote:> > > > >> > > > > WOW.> > > > > > > > > > This forum has turned into just another> > radical reactionary shithole. Completely off > topic. Yet> > another internet place for delusions, > distortions, and> > lies.> > > > > > > > > > Fact: The full text of the ACA was> > available almost the whole time. Obviously less the> > changes currently being proposed and discussed. > > > > > > > > > > Fact: The people who do this kind of> > whining are exclusively completely self centered> > anti-social morons who don't consider all the benefits> > they receive at others expense, or the great > benefits of> > have a great society that supports all the > people, grows> > the economy, and increases the standard of > living. They> > simply dream of how good it would be if they retained> > everything they have and get and somehow didn't > have to> > pay for any of it. All the advances of society and> > technology, the vast bulk of which they had > nothing to do> > with. I am quite sure they use words like > socialist and> > communist and have no idea what either term actually> > means. They certainly have no idea what the term> > capitalist actually means now what Adam Smith > was trying> > to achieve.> > > > > > > > > > All they do is whine and hope that someone> > will give them everything they desire while not > giving to> > others they feel are undeserving. All while deceiving> > themselves that they are independent individuals> > supporting themselves outside all that exists > and all that> > has gone before.> > > > > > > > > > Back to the good old days when only white> > male protestants who own landed estates have any > rights or> > benefits of the wealth society and all the > people create.> > > > > > > > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,> > pawnedmyrolex wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Reminds me of the new Lib movie> > remake: "Dependence Day"> > > > > > > > > > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,> > "zimowski@" wrote:> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Those who re-elected Obama now> > need to eat his dog food.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,> > spitzerisnoweiner wrote:> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > consequences-from-obamacare/?mod=WSJBlog> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Soooo glad I never joined a> > union...> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a bad> > re-distribution of wealth for sure.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >

Dream onToday in the New York area doctors are not accepting insurances of any kind.? They are not going out of business.? Their approach is that they charge you their fee and then give to you whatever they receive from the insurance companies.? This is not permitted by Medicare/Medicaid and reimbursement is lower than that which is given by insurance companiesThese doctors are doing fine because someone always has the cash and willing to pay.? For IBM, I live in Europe for five years.? In England, and France to get an appointment with any doctor all you had to tell him you are paying cash.? In the UK, there is? no waiting time. However, UK medical system denies patients cancer drugs because of cost.? Deaths from cancer a higher than that of the US. Check the facts. In France, the American Hospital which accepts no insurance either from the French government or any one else.? They will fill out all the forms and give you whatever they collect by crediting the credit card you use.? Under your thinking they would go out of business if they did not accept payment from the single payer and French insurance companies who pay the supplement.? They are full and it is primary French citizens who want to be treated with best up to dated equipment and drugs.For IBM I lived under both systems for a period of five years.? The US media will not highlight this, neither will those who support European social heath care.? Ask yourself, why did the Prime Minister of Canada come to US - Florida for treatment? rather than being treated in Canada..? Why did the Canadian government stop insurance companies from selling a policy that pay for a Canadians?airfare trip and medical treatment in the US.Have you visited hospitals in countries like France and asked yourself would you like to be treated there?? I think not - reality versus dream land.I am not under ACA?but Medicare which is going broke.? Do you think this new plan will not have the same financial issues.RegardsIBMer?who has lived under European Social Medicine.----- Original Message -----From: dan?finn?Date: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 10:02 pmSubject: Re: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive Consequences From ObamacareTo: ibmpensionissues@...> But if everyone were covered under a single payer, then > practices go out of business if they refuse to accept payment > from single payers, correct? Or, the prices would be so low that > they cannot continue to pay for their liabilities such as homes, > cars and expenses. This is the part where very good doctors with > lower financial expectations from places like the Philippines > and India set up shop in the usa...ACA?(regrettably not single > payer) will probably necessitate this anyway due to high demand. > They would be here now except for the arbitrarily protective > visa limitations that could be liberalized, probably by > executive order.> > KenSP@... wrote:> > >ColleaguesI?think you are dreaming if you think that ACA?or a > single payer will be the answer to the healthcare. The first > thing is Medicare and Medicaid is a single payer for many of us > who have retired.? It is reasonably price. The issue is not the > cost, but finding a doctor who accepts Medicare / Medicaid > Patients. The law cannot force a doctor to work at a specified > price. Otherwise it is slavery. So he can legally refuse to > accept patients as long as he does not discriminate. A doctor > determines what he is willing to accept in payment for his > service. There are not enough doctors to treat everyone.Today, a > doctor now asks "Do you have insurance and with whom?" before he > is willing to even accept you as a patient. Some will advise you > upfront that they expect payment when services are render and > they post such a sign in their office. There are many who will > pay upfront to be treated by the doctor of their choice and who > has an excellent reputation.Many doctors, in the New York City > and Westchester County are not accepting Medicare / Medicaid > patients.? The reason is that the government reimbursement is to > low. If a doctor accepts a Medicare patient, he must also take > Medicaid patients.? A medicaid patient pays nothing, not even > the 20% a Medicare patient pays. A doctor receives about 65% of > the reimbursement he gets for treating Medicare patients - so he > refuses to treat either. The reimbursement the doctor receives > from the government does not cover his costs especially his > malpractice insurance so why accept Medicare or Medicaid > patients.In Westchester, a nearby hospital closed because a > majority of their patients where under Medicaid and they went > bankrupt. There also have been some hospital closing in New York > City and the wait in emergency room has increase in the other > hospitals.Even if you have private or company insurance, like my > daughter who has a healthcare insurance policy from her company > listed on the New York Stock Exchange, was told by her doctor, > he does not accept any insurance.? She had to pay his fees with > a credit card and when the doctor received payment from the > insurance company (three months later), he gave her the amount > he received. Her out of pocket costs was 40% of the fee.? This > is not the case with the Hospital but with the doctors.As you > can see, it does not matter what insurance you have, if no > doctor, other than a hospital, is willing to accept it, what > good is insurance. So dream on about ACA and a single payer. You > may have the reasonably priced insurance you want but it won't > by you medical services if a doctor does not accept it.From a > retiree who is under Medicare----- Original Message -----From: > Danny Baptista Date: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 12:40 pmSubject: Re: > [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive Consequences From > ObamacareTo: ibmpensionissues@...> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >?> >> >> >> > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rick, thank you. I've also been fed up> > with the misinformed reactionary rhetoric from this site > that I> > find in my inbox often these days. An FYI to you all: I'm > looking> forward to increased access to health care that is > not quite as> > expensive and not quite as much a rip-off, and I welcome > the ACA> > as an incremental and progressive step towards single payer.> > > > > > ?> > > > > > Sorry. Not me.> > > > However, you did prove my point.> > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,> > buckwildbeemer wrote:> > >> > > OK, now tell us what ya did at IBM!> > > > > > > > > > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,> > "Rick b Cool" wrote:> > > >> > > > Perhaps this thread can get back on topic> > without the radical reactionary rhetoric firmly > grounded> in delusions.> > > > > > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,> > "Rick b Cool" wrote:> > > > >> > > > > WOW.> > > > > > > > > > This forum has turned into just another> > radical reactionary shithole. Completely off > topic. Yet> > another internet place for delusions, > distortions, and> > lies.> > > > > > > > > > Fact: The full text of the ACA was> > available almost the whole time. Obviously less the> > changes currently being proposed and discussed. > > > > > > > > > > Fact: The people who do this kind of> > whining are exclusively completely self centered> > anti-social morons who don't consider all the benefits> > they receive at others expense, or the great > benefits of> > have a great society that supports all the > people, grows> > the economy, and increases the standard of > living. They> > simply dream of how good it would be if they retained> > everything they have and get and somehow didn't > have to> > pay for any of it. All the advances of society and> > technology, the vast bulk of which they had > nothing to do> > with. I am quite sure they use words like > socialist and> > communist and have no idea what either term actually> > means. They certainly have no idea what the term> > capitalist actually means now what Adam Smith was > trying> to achieve.> > > > > > > > > > All they do is whine and hope that someone> > will give them everything they desire while not > giving to> > others they feel are undeserving. All while deceiving> > themselves that they are independent individuals> > supporting themselves outside all that exists and > all that> > has gone before.> > > > > > > > > > Back to the good old days when only white> > male protestants who own landed estates have any > rights or> > benefits of the wealth society and all the people > create.> > > > > > > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,> > pawnedmyrolex wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Reminds me of the new Lib movie> > remake: "Dependence Day"> > > > > > > > > > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,> > "zimowski@" wrote:> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Those who re-elected Obama now> > need to eat his dog food.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,> > spitzerisnoweiner wrote:> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > consequences-from-obamacare/?mod=WSJBlog> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Soooo glad I never joined a> > union...> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a bad> > re-distribution of wealth for sure.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > >> > > > > >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > >> >> >> >> >> >> >>

But if everyone were covered under a single payer, then practices go out of business if they refuse to accept payment from single payers, correct? Or, the prices would be so low that they cannot continue to pay for their liabilities such as homes, cars and expenses. This is the part where very good doctors with lower financial expectations from places like the Philippines and India set up shop in the usa...ACA (regrettably not single payer) will probably necessitate this anyway due to high demand. They would be here now except for the arbitrarily protective visa limitations that could be liberalized, probably by executive order.

KenSP@... wrote:

ColleaguesI think you are dreaming if you think that ACA or a single payer will be the answer to the healthcare. The first thing is Medicare and Medicaid is a single payer for many of us who have retired.?? It is reasonably price. The issue is not the cost, but finding a doctor who accepts Medicare / Medicaid Patients. The law cannot force a doctor to work at a specified price. Otherwise it is slavery. So he can legally refuse to accept patients as long as he does not discriminate. A doctor determines what he is willing to accept in payment for his service. There are not enough doctors to treat everyone.Today, a doctor now asks "Do you have insurance and with whom?" before he is willing to even accept you as a patient. Some will advise you upfront that they expect payment when services are render and they post such a sign in their office. There are many who will pay upfront to be treated by the doctor of their choice and who has an excellent reputation.Many doctors, in the New York City and Westchester County are not accepting Medicare / Medicaid patients.?? The reason is that the government reimbursement is to low. If a doctor accepts a Medicare patient, he must also take Medicaid patients.?? A medicaid patient pays nothing, not even the 20% a Medicare patient pays. A doctor receives about 65% of the reimbursement he gets for treating Medicare patients - so he refuses to treat either. The reimbursement the doctor receives from the government does not cover his costs especially his malpractice insurance so why accept Medicare or Medicaid patients.In Westchester, a nearby hospital closed because a majority of their patients where under Medicaid and they went bankrupt. There also have been some hospital closing in New York City and the wait in emergency room has increase in the other hospitals.Even if you have private or company insurance, like my daughter who has a healthcare insurance policy from her company listed on the New York Stock Exchange, was told by her doctor, he does not accept any insurance.?? She had to pay his fees with a credit card and when the doctor received payment from the insurance company (three months later), he gave her the amount he received. Her out of pocket costs was 40% of the fee.?? This is not the case with the Hospital but with the doctors.As you can see, it does not matter what insurance you have, if no doctor, other than a hospital, is willing to accept it, what good is insurance. So dream on about ACA and a single payer. You may have the reasonably priced insurance you want but it won't by you medical services if a doctor does not accept it.From a retiree who is under Medicare----- Original Message -----From: Danny Baptista Date: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 12:40 pmSubject: Re: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive Consequences From ObamacareTo: ibmpensionissues@...














??












Rick, thank you. I've also been fed up
with the misinformed reactionary rhetoric from this site that I
find in my inbox often these days. An FYI to you all: I'm looking
forward to increased access to health care that is not quite as
expensive and not quite as much a rip-off, and I welcome the ACA
as an incremental and progressive step towards single payer.


??


Sorry. Not me.

However, you did prove my point.

--- In ibmpensionissues@...,
buckwildbeemer <no_reply@> wrote:
>
> OK, now tell us what ya did at IBM!
>
>
>
> --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
"Rick b Cool" <rickboehme@> wrote:
> >
> > Perhaps this thread can get back on topic
without the radical reactionary rhetoric firmly grounded
in delusions.
> >
> > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
"Rick b Cool" <rickboehme@> wrote:
> > >
> > > WOW.
> > >
> > > This forum has turned into just another
radical reactionary shithole. Completely off topic. Yet
another internet place for delusions, distortions, and
lies.
> > >
> > > Fact: The full text of the ACA was
available almost the whole time. Obviously less the
changes currently being proposed and discussed.
> > >
> > > Fact: The people who do this kind of
whining are exclusively completely self centered
anti-social morons who don't consider all the benefits
they receive at others expense, or the great benefits of
have a great society that supports all the people, grows
the economy, and increases the standard of living. They
simply dream of how good it would be if they retained
everything they have and get and somehow didn't have to
pay for any of it. All the advances of society and
technology, the vast bulk of which they had nothing to do
with. I am quite sure they use words like socialist and
communist and have no idea what either term actually
means. They certainly have no idea what the term
capitalist actually means now what Adam Smith was trying
to achieve.
> > >
> > > All they do is whine and hope that someone
will give them everything they desire while not giving to
others they feel are undeserving. All while deceiving
themselves that they are independent individuals
supporting themselves outside all that exists and all that
has gone before.
> > >
> > > Back to the good old days when only white
male protestants who own landed estates have any rights or
benefits of the wealth society and all the people create.
> > >
> > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
pawnedmyrolex <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Reminds me of the new Lib movie
remake: "Dependence Day"
> > > >
> > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
"zimowski@" <zimowski@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Those who re-elected Obama now
need to eat his dog food.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
spitzerisnoweiner <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Soooo glad I never joined a
union...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is a bad
re-distribution of wealth for sure.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
























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Very good. Thanks for the analysis. However, none of what you said has anything at all to do with ACA. Yes, some doctors refuse Medicare. Some refuse all insurance. They have done so for an extremely long time. Some demand cash payment in advance and them reimburse when insurance pays them. They have done so for a very long time.

No ACA is far, far from a perfect plan. It is something which was never wanted by those who believe in universal health care. It was a proposal that was proposed by conservative Republicans and only abandoned as a political maneuver against a President they wanted to fail at any cost to the people of the United States. The one strategy which the modern Republican leadership has carries out extremely consistently at great cost to the American people.

Also, from a purely social perspective. It clearly looks as if you said that we need to have access to good health care severely limited to more wealthy individuals because their is a shortage of doctors. People do reveal their self centered nature while entirely ignoring the fact that most doctors are educated at the expense of the people of the United States through grants, subsidies, and delayed low interest loans. No one pays the full free market capitalist price of their healthcare. Though, one must admit that in some arenas, such a patent drugs, they do pay monopolistic prices.

Healthcare in this country is a highly complex system with many interdependencies. The idiotic perspective is that some of us deserve good healthcare more than others of us.

Now as I said previously. The real issue on this forum is getting back on topic. We don't need the political bullshit of the loud mouthed Obama haters who will say anything true or false or irrelevant.

--- In ibmpensionissues@..., KenSP@ wrote:

ColleaguesI think you are dreaming if you think that ACA or a single payer will be the answer to the healthcare. The first thing is Medicare and Medicaid is a single payer for many of us who have retired.? It is reasonably price. The issue is not the cost, but finding a doctor who accepts Medicare / Medicaid Patients. The law cannot force a doctor to work at a specified price. Otherwise it is slavery. So he can legally refuse to accept patients as long as he does not discriminate. A doctor determines what he is willing to accept in payment for his service. There are not enough doctors to treat everyone.Today, a doctor now asks "Do you have insurance and with whom?" before he is willing to even accept you as a patient. Some will advise you upfront that they expect payment when services are render and they post such a sign in their office. There are many who will pay upfront to be treated by the doctor of their choice and who has an excellent reputation.Many doctors, in the New York City and Westchester County are not accepting Medicare / Medicaid patients.? The reason is that the government reimbursement is to low. If a doctor accepts a Medicare patient, he must also take Medicaid patients.? A medicaid patient pays nothing, not even the 20% a Medicare patient pays. A doctor receives about 65% of the reimbursement he gets for treating Medicare patients - so he refuses to treat either. The reimbursement the doctor receives from the government does not cover his costs especially his malpractice insurance so why accept Medicare or Medicaid patients.In Westchester, a nearby hospital closed because a majority of their patients where under Medicaid and they went bankrupt. There also have been some hospital closing in New York City and the wait in emergency room has increase in the other hospitals.Even if you have private or company insurance, like my daughter who has a healthcare insurance policy from her company listed on the New York Stock Exchange, was told by her doctor, he does not accept any insurance.? She had to pay his fees with a credit card and when the doctor received payment from the insurance company (three months later), he gave her the amount he received. Her out of pocket costs was 40% of the fee.? This is not the case with the Hospital but with the doctors.As you can see, it does not matter what insurance you have, if no doctor, other than a hospital, is willing to accept it, what good is insurance. So dream on about ACA and a single payer. You may have the reasonably priced insurance you want but it won't by you medical services if a doctor does not accept it.From a retiree who is under Medicare----- Original Message -----From: Danny Baptista Date: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 12:40 pmSubject: Re: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive Consequences From ObamacareTo: ibmpensionissues@...














?












Rick, thank you. I've also been fed up
with the misinformed reactionary rhetoric from this site that I
find in my inbox often these days. An FYI to you all: I'm looking
forward to increased access to health care that is not quite as
expensive and not quite as much a rip-off, and I welcome the ACA
as an incremental and progressive step towards single payer.


?


Sorry. Not me.

However, you did prove my point.

--- In ibmpensionissues@...,
buckwildbeemer <no_reply@> wrote:
>
> OK, now tell us what ya did at IBM!
>
>
>
> --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
"Rick b Cool" <rickboehme@> wrote:
> >
> > Perhaps this thread can get back on topic
without the radical reactionary rhetoric firmly grounded
in delusions.
> >
> > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
"Rick b Cool" <rickboehme@> wrote:
> > >
> > > WOW.
> > >
> > > This forum has turned into just another
radical reactionary shithole. Completely off topic. Yet
another internet place for delusions, distortions, and
lies.
> > >
> > > Fact: The full text of the ACA was
available almost the whole time. Obviously less the
changes currently being proposed and discussed.
> > >
> > > Fact: The people who do this kind of
whining are exclusively completely self centered
anti-social morons who don't consider all the benefits
they receive at others expense, or the great benefits of
have a great society that supports all the people, grows
the economy, and increases the standard of living. They
simply dream of how good it would be if they retained
everything they have and get and somehow didn't have to
pay for any of it. All the advances of society and
technology, the vast bulk of which they had nothing to do
with. I am quite sure they use words like socialist and
communist and have no idea what either term actually
means. They certainly have no idea what the term
capitalist actually means now what Adam Smith was trying
to achieve.
> > >
> > > All they do is whine and hope that someone
will give them everything they desire while not giving to
others they feel are undeserving. All while deceiving
themselves that they are independent individuals
supporting themselves outside all that exists and all that
has gone before.
> > >
> > > Back to the good old days when only white
male protestants who own landed estates have any rights or
benefits of the wealth society and all the people create.
> > >
> > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
pawnedmyrolex <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Reminds me of the new Lib movie
remake: "Dependence Day"
> > > >
> > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
"zimowski@" <zimowski@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Those who re-elected Obama now
need to eat his dog food.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In ibmpensionissues@...,
spitzerisnoweiner <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Soooo glad I never joined a
union...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is a bad
re-distribution of wealth for sure.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
























<!--
#ygrp-mkp {
border: 1px solid #d8d8d8;
font-family: Arial;
margin: 10px 0;
padding: 0 10px;
}

#ygrp-mkp hr {
border: 1px solid #d8d8d8;
}

#ygrp-mkp #hd {
color: #628c2a;
font-size: 85%;
font-weight: 700;
line-height: 122%;
margin: 10px 0;
}

#ygrp-mkp #ads {
margin-bottom: 10px;
}

#ygrp-mkp .ad {
padding: 0 0;
}

#ygrp-mkp .ad p {
margin: 0;
}

#ygrp-mkp .ad a {
color: #0000ff;
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc {
font-family: Arial;
}

#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd {
margin: 10px 0px;
font-weight: 700;
font-size: 78%;
line-height: 122%;
}

#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad {
margin-bottom: 10px;
padding: 0 0;
}

#actions {
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 11px;
padding: 10px 0;
}

#activity {
background-color: #e0ecee;
float: left;
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 10px;
padding: 10px;
}

#activity span {
font-weight: 700;
}

#activity span:first-child {
text-transform: uppercase;
}

#activity span a {
color: #5085b6;
text-decoration: none;
}

#activity span span {
color: #ff7900;
}

#activity span .underline {
text-decoration: underline;
}

.attach {
clear: both;
display: table;
font-family: Arial;
font-size: 12px;
padding: 10px 0;
width: 400px;
}

.attach div a {
text-decoration: none;
}

.attach img {
border: none;
padding-right: 5px;
}

.attach label {
display: block;
margin-bottom: 5px;
}

.attach label a {
text-decoration: none;
}

blockquote {
margin: 0 0 0 4px;
}

.bold {
font-family: Arial;
font-size: 13px;
font-weight: 700;
}

.bold a {
text-decoration: none;
}

dd.last p a {
font-family: Verdana;
font-weight: 700;
}

dd.last p span {
margin-right: 10px;
font-family: Verdana;
font-weight: 700;
}

dd.last p span.yshortcuts {
margin-right: 0;
}

div.attach-table div div a {
text-decoration: none;
}

div.attach-table {
width: 400px;
}

div.file-title a, div.file-title a:active, div.file-title a:hover, div.file-title a:visited {
text-decoration: none;
}

div.photo-title a, div.photo-title a:active, div.photo-title a:hover, div.photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration: none;
}

div#ygrp-mlmsg #ygrp-msg p a span.yshortcuts {
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 10px;
font-weight: normal;
}

.green {
color: #628c2a;
}

.MsoNormal {
margin: 0 0 0 0;
}

o {
font-size: 0;
}

#photos div {
float: left;
width: 72px;
}

#photos div div {
border: 1px solid #666666;
height: 62px;
overflow: hidden;
width: 62px;
}

#photos div label {
color: #666666;
font-size: 10px;
overflow: hidden;
text-align: center;
white-space: nowrap;
width: 64px;
}

#reco-category {
font-size: 77%;
}

#reco-desc {
font-size: 77%;
}

.replbq {
margin: 4px;
}

#ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
/* border-right: 0px solid #000;*/
margin-right: 2px;
padding-right: 5px;
}

#ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size: 13px;
font-family: Arial, helvetica,clean, sans-serif;
*font-size: small;
*font: x-small;
}

#ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size: inherit;
font: 100%;
}

#ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {
font: 99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;
}

#ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {
font:115% monospace;
*font-size:100%;
}

#ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height: 1.22em;
}

#ygrp-mlmsg #logo {
padding-bottom: 10px;
}


#ygrp-msg p a {
font-family: Verdana;
}

#ygrp-msg p#attach-count span {
color: #1E66AE;
font-weight: 700;
}

#ygrp-reco #reco-head {
color: #ff7900;
font-weight: 700;
}

#ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 0px;
}

#ygrp-sponsor #ov li a {
font-size: 130%;
text-decoration: none;
}

#ygrp-sponsor #ov li {
font-size: 77%;
list-style-type: square;
padding: 6px 0;
}

#ygrp-sponsor #ov ul {
margin: 0;
padding: 0 0 0 8px;
}

#ygrp-text {
font-family: Georgia;
}

#ygrp-text p {
margin: 0 0 1em 0;
}

#ygrp-text tt {
font-size: 120%;
}

#ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right: none !important;
}
-->

Generally speaking, bullshit. Here in the NYC greater metropolitan area