On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 11:58 PM, Jeffrey Ohlson via Groups.Io

<jeff_062@...> wrote:

I would suggest that for an easy low cost etching tank, go to a thrift store and purchase a suitable sized crock pot .? Make sure it is a ceramic one .? They are not affected by Ferric Chloride , have a built in heating element .? I store mine , an 8.5 qt oval one , outside under a cover to keep the weather out .? Use an oval or round unit , the rectangular ones have cracking issues .? For long term use (leaving the etchant in long term , you may need to replace the screw in the center of the clear glass cover with a titanium one , and the seal around the lid with one made from some slit gas line of epdm rubber hose .? I suggest filling with water , to the desired level , and time it for how long it takes to reach your desired temperature with the desired amount of liquid .? I would expect that ceramic would also stand up to HCL and peroxide also .? I am currently working on an idea of using a motor such as a vibrating unit as a cell phone has , for agitation rather than bubbles , but I haven't decided yet .??

Jeffrey,
You need bubbles if you use HCl plus H2O2, to regenerate the solution. The benefit of bubbles is double. They regenerate the solution and agitate thy he bath at the same time.

Just a thought,
Jean-Paul
N1JPL


On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 11:58 PM, Jeffrey Ohlson via Groups.Io <jeff_062@...> wrote:

I would suggest that for an easy low cost etching tank, go to a thrift store and purchase a suitable sized crock pot. Make sure it is a ceramic one. They are not affected by Ferric Chloride, have a built in heating element. I store mine, an 8.5 qt oval one, outside under a cover to keep the weather out. Use an oval or round unit, the rectangular ones have cracking issues. For long term use (leaving the etchant in long term, you may need to replace the screw in the center of the clear glass cover with a titanium one, and the seal around the lid with one made from some slit gas line of epdm rubber hose. I suggest filling with water, to the desired level, and time it for how long it takes to reach your desired temperature with the desired amount of liquid. I would expect that ceramic would also stand up to HCL and peroxide also. I am currently working on an idea of using a motor such as a vibrating unit as a cell phone has, for agitation rather than bubbles, but I haven't decided yet .

Another possibility for the tank is to use a Storage Dispenser from Walmart.?? The dispenser is the kind used for storing and dispensing cereal or other grains.??

I've been using one obtained from Walmart for a ferric chloride etching tank for a number of years.? ?? Recently purchased another one of the same size and I'm assuming the new one is made of the same material as the original dispenser.? ??
The label on the new dispenser says the material is polypropylene and dimensions are 7 1/2" w x 3 1/2" d x 11" h, not including the top.?? Unfortunately, I don't have any of the labeling, etc., that came with the original dispenser.

I've been leaving the ferric chloride in the dispenser as it has a removable, tight top and I've notice no degradation in the flexibility or strength of the original dispenser.?? The tank heater and tubing used with the bubbler are removed after each use.

? In addition, the bubbler (fish tank aerator), 1/4" tubing and connections were obtained from the pet section of Walmart.?? I already had a fish tank heater.??

I would be interested in knowing if polypropylene can be used as an etching tank for other common PCB etching chemicals, e.g., H2O2, HCl, etc.??

?? 73,
?? Mike, K4GMH



--
Mike, K4GMH

Another possibility for the tank is to use a Storage Dispenser from Walmart.? The dispenser is the kind used for storing and dispensing cereal or other grains.
I've been using one obtained from Walmart for a ferric chloride etching tank for a number of years.?? Recently purchased another one of the same size and I'm assuming the new one is made of the same material as the original dispenser.
The label on the new dispenser says the material is polypropylene and dimensions are 7 1/2" w x 3 1/2" d x 11" h, not including the top. Unfortunately, I don't have any of the labeling, etc., that came with the original dispenser.
I've been leaving the ferric chloride in the dispenser as it has a removable, tight top and I've notice no degradation in the flexibility or strength of the original dispenser.? The tank heater and tubing used with the bubbler are removed after each use.
?In addition, the bubbler (fish tank aerator), 1/4" tubing and connections were obtained from the pet section of Walmart.? I already had a fish tank heater.
I would be interested in knowing if polypropylene can be used as an etching tank for other common PCB etching chemicals, e.g., H2O2, HCl, etc.
? 73,
? Mike, K4GMH
--
Mike, K4GMH

If you're adding H2O2 to the solution, you don't need bubbles to regenerate since the oxygen from the H2O2 will do the regeneration.

Personally I'd make a solution of copper wire in HCl and H2O2 and do my etching with that, using air to regenerate. No H2O2 after the initial amount needed to get the reaction started to make the solution, and once the initial solution is prepared, only a bit of HCl left over. Let the cupric chloride in the solution do the etching and regenerate with air... adding a bit of HCl when the solution won't fully regenerate or if etching produces a persistent brownish color. That approach also virtually eliminates the HCl fumes everyone seems to be so concerned about since there isn't a great excess of HCl.

Jim H



Received from Jean-Paul Louis via Groups.Io at 3/19/2019 02:53 PM UTC:

Jeffrey,
You need bubbles if you use HCl plus H2O2, to regenerate the solution. The benefit of bubbles is double. They regenerate the solution and agitate thy he bath at the same time.

Just a thought,
Jean-Paul
N1JPL


On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 11:58 PM, Jeffrey Ohlson via Groups.Io <jeff_062@...> wrote:

I would suggest that for an easy low cost etching tank, go to a thrift store and purchase a suitable sized crock pot. Make sure it is a ceramic one. They are not affected by Ferric Chloride, have a built in heating element. I store mine, an 8.5 qt oval one, outside under a cover to keep the weather out. Use an oval or round unit, the rectangular ones have cracking issues. For long term use (leaving the etchant in long term, you may need to replace the screw in the center of the clear glass cover with a titanium one, and the seal around the lid with one made from some slit gas line of epdm rubber hose.? I suggest filling with water, to the desired level, and time it for how long it takes to reach your desired temperature with the desired amount of liquid. I would expect that ceramic would also stand up to HCL and peroxide also. I am currently working on an idea of using a motor such as a vibrating unit as a cell phone has, for agitation rather than bubbles, but I haven't decided yet .

I would suggest that for an easy low cost etching tank, go to a thrift store and purchase a suitable sized crock pot .? Make sure it is a ceramic one .? They are not affected by Ferric Chloride , have a built in heating element .? I store mine , an 8.5 qt oval one , outside under a cover to keep the weather out .? Use an oval or round unit , the rectangular ones have cracking issues .? For long term use (leaving the etchant in long term , you may need to replace the screw in the center of the clear glass cover with a titanium one , and the seal around the lid with one made from some slit gas line of epdm rubber hose .? I suggest filling with water , to the desired level , and time it for how long it takes to reach your desired temperature with the desired amount of liquid .? I would expect that ceramic would also stand up to HCL and peroxide also .? I am currently working on an idea of using a motor such as a vibrating unit as a cell phone has , for agitation rather than bubbles , but I haven't decided yet .??

_._,_._,_

---

Another possibility for the tank is to use a Storage Dispenser from Walmart.? The dispenser is the kind used for storing and dispensing cereal or other grains.?

I've been using one obtained from Walmart for a ferric chloride etching tank for a number of years.?? Recently purchased another one of the same size and I'm assuming the new one is made of the same material as the original dispenser.??

The label on the new dispenser says the material is polypropylene and dimensions are 7 1/2" w x 3 1/2" d x 11" h, not including the top.? Unfortunately, I don't have any of the labeling, etc., that came with the original dispenser.

I've been leaving the ferric chloride in the dispenser as it has a removable, tight top and I've notice no degradation in the flexibility or strength of the original dispenser.? The tank heater and tubing used with the bubbler are removed after each use.

?In addition, the bubbler (fish tank aerator), 1/4" tubing and connections were obtained from the pet section of Walmart.? I already had a fish tank heater.?

I would be interested in knowing if polypropylene can be used as an etching tank for other common PCB etching chemicals, e.g., H2O2, HCl, etc.?

? 73,

? Mike, K4GMH

--
Mike, K4GMH

<> is a rather complete chart of chemical resistance of various plastics. Legend and description of the chart's resistance ratings are on the last page.

Donald.
--
*Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
() no proprietary attachments; no html mail
/\ <>

On 2019-03-20 2:40 p.m., Michael Sims wrote:

Another possibility for the tank is to use a Storage Dispenser from Walmart.? The dispenser is the kind used for storing and dispensing cereal or other grains.

I've been using one obtained from Walmart for a ferric chloride etching tank for a number of years.?? Recently purchased another one of the same size and I'm assuming the new one is made of the same material as the original dispenser.
The label on the new dispenser says the material is polypropylene and dimensions are 7 1/2" w x 3 1/2" d x 11" h, not including the top. Unfortunately, I don't have any of the labeling, etc., that came with the original dispenser.

I've been leaving the ferric chloride in the dispenser as it has a removable, tight top and I've notice no degradation in the flexibility or strength of the original dispenser.? The tank heater and tubing used with the bubbler are removed after each use.

??In addition, the bubbler (fish tank aerator), 1/4" tubing and connections were obtained from the pet section of Walmart.? I already had a fish tank heater.

I would be interested in knowing if polypropylene can be used as an etching tank for other common PCB etching chemicals, e.g., H2O2, HCl, etc.

?? 73,
?? Mike, K4GMH



--
Mike, K4GMH

Jim,

Could you explain more on how to make the mix with the copper wire? I like the idea of less corrosive fumes.

Thanks,

Dave



On 3/19/2019 2:39 PM, Jim Higgins wrote:

If you're adding H2O2 to the solution, you don't need bubbles to regenerate since the oxygen from the H2O2 will do the regeneration.

Personally I'd make a solution of copper wire in HCl and H2O2 and do my etching with that, using air to regenerate. No H2O2 after the initial amount needed to get the reaction started to make the solution, and once the initial solution is prepared, only a bit of HCl left over. Let the cupric chloride in the solution do the etching and regenerate with air... adding a bit of HCl when the solution won't fully regenerate or if etching produces a persistent brownish color. That approach also virtually eliminates the HCl fumes everyone seems to be so concerned about since there isn't a great excess of HCl.

Jim H

"Could you explain more on how to make the mix with the copper wire? I like the idea of less corrosive fumes."

Cupric chloride is what that sounds like. If you mix hydrochloric acid and hydrogen peroxide, then etch copper, you end up with cupric chloride. As it gets overloaded with copper, it changes. Simply bubbling air through it to add oxygen, or adding a little more H2O2 converts it back to cupric chloride suitable for etching again.

James Newton kindly saved a lot of posts from here pertinent to making PCBs. From?

Hydrochloric acid and Hydrogen Peroxide aka Cupric Chloride

Chuck Knight says:?

"The recipe was simple. 2:1 ratio of H₂O₂?to HCL. The HCl was 20% concentration, in a toilet bowl cleaner called "The Works" that I purchased at WalMart for $0.94. The H₂O₂?was also from WalMart, from the pharmaceuticals section. Whatever they had...

The etchant works impossibly slow at first...threw in a sacrificial bit of copper wire, and let it dissolve all night. Once it turned from blue to emerald green, it worked beautifully for 4 boards. Took several hours to etch the boards. It did, however, turn into an ugly olive green that needed to be refreshed with a capful of H₂O₂, 3/4 of the way through the process."

Erik Knise advises: "At 20% concentration of HCL and 3% (standard over the counter pharmacy) H₂O₂?you should have a ratio of ~1:3 by weight (volume is about the same). So you would need 3 times as much H₂O₂?to HCL. The board should have etched within a few minutes."

DANGER:?With 20% HCL (from a pool supply) and 30% H₂O₂?(hard to find, try a chemical supply store) mixed 2:1, once a little of the copper gets into the solution, the copper will literally foam off the board and the etching will be done in a minute!?

?helps you design the perfect CuCl2 echant for your needs.

--
Steven Greenfield AE7HD

_._,_._,_

---

"Could you explain more on how to make the mix with the copper wire? I like the idea of less corrosive fumes."
Cupric chloride is what that sounds like. If you mix hydrochloric acid and hydrogen peroxide, then etch copper, you end up with cupric chloride. As it gets overloaded with copper, it changes. Simply bubbling air through it to add oxygen, or adding a little more H2O2 converts it back to cupric chloride suitable for etching again.
James Newton kindly saved a lot of posts from here pertinent to making PCBs. From
Hydrochloric acid and Hydrogen Peroxide aka Cupric Chloride
Chuck Knight says: ^ <>
"The recipe was simple. 2:1 ratio of H_2 O_2 ?to HCL. The HCl was
20% concentration, in a toilet bowl cleaner called "The Works" that
I purchased at WalMart for $0.94. The H_2 O_2 ?was also from
WalMart, from the pharmaceuticals section. Whatever they had...
The etchant works impossibly slow at first...threw in a sacrificial
bit of copper wire, and let it dissolve all night. Once it turned
from blue to emerald green, it worked beautifully for 4 boards. Took
several hours to etch the boards. It did, however, turn into an ugly
olive green that needed to be refreshed with a capful of H_2 O_2 ,
3/4 of the way through the process."
Erik Knise advises: "At 20% concentration of HCL and 3% (standard over the counter pharmacy) H_2 O_2 ?you should have a ratio of ~1:3 by weight (volume is about the same). So you would need 3 times as much H_2 O_2 ?to HCL. The board should have etched within a few minutes."
*DANGER:*?With 20% HCL (from a pool supply) and 30% H_2 O_2 ?(hard to find, try a chemical supply store) mixed 2:1, once a little of the copper gets into the solution, the copper will literally foam off the board and the etching will be done in a minute! ^ <>
Erik L. Knise's Cupric Chloride Echant calculator <>?helps you design the perfect CuCl2 echant for your needs.
--
Steven Greenfield AE7HD

I found Sally Beauty Supply to be a good source for H2O2. I recall the "volume" rating is a bit more than 3x the concentration, so "30 Volume" H2O2 is 10% concentration.

Donald.
--
*Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
() no proprietary attachments; no html mail
/\ <>

On 2019-03-22 5:09 p.m., Steven Greenfield AE7HD via Groups.Io wrote:

"Could you explain more on how to make the mix with the copper wire? I like the idea of less corrosive fumes."

Cupric chloride is what that sounds like. If you mix hydrochloric acid and hydrogen peroxide, then etch copper, you end up with cupric chloride. As it gets overloaded with copper, it changes. Simply bubbling air through it to add oxygen, or adding a little more H2O2 converts it back to cupric chloride suitable for etching again.

James Newton kindly saved a lot of posts from here pertinent to making PCBs. From


????? Hydrochloric acid and Hydrogen Peroxide aka Cupric Chloride

Chuck Knight says: ^ <>

??? "The recipe was simple. 2:1 ratio of H_2 O_2 ?to HCL. The HCl was
??? 20% concentration, in a toilet bowl cleaner called "The Works" that
??? I purchased at WalMart for $0.94. The H_2 O_2 ?was also from
??? WalMart, from the pharmaceuticals section. Whatever they had...

??? The etchant works impossibly slow at first...threw in a sacrificial
??? bit of copper wire, and let it dissolve all night. Once it turned
??? from blue to emerald green, it worked beautifully for 4 boards. Took
??? several hours to etch the boards. It did, however, turn into an ugly
??? olive green that needed to be refreshed with a capful of H_2 O_2 ,
??? 3/4 of the way through the process."

Erik Knise advises: "At 20% concentration of HCL and 3% (standard over the counter pharmacy) H_2 O_2 ?you should have a ratio of ~1:3 by weight (volume is about the same). So you would need 3 times as much H_2 O_2 ??to HCL. The board should have etched within a few minutes."

*DANGER:*?With 20% HCL (from a pool supply) and 30% H_2 O_2 ?(hard to find, try a chemical supply store) mixed 2:1, once a little of the copper gets into the solution, the copper will literally foam off the board and the etching will be done in a minute! ^ <>

Erik L. Knise's Cupric Chloride Echant calculator <>?helps you design the perfect CuCl2 echant for your needs.


--
Steven Greenfield AE7HD

On Fri, 22 Mar 2019 20:31:31 -0400, you wrote:

I found Sally Beauty Supply to be a good source for H2O2. I recall the
"volume" rating is a bit more than 3x the concentration, so "30 Volume"
H2O2 is 10% concentration.

Do be careful, since the drugstore concentration is far less than the
various products available in beauty supply stores.

I'd think that the best use is as follows:

1) build the etchant with drugstore H2O2 and HCL.

2) when desired, top up the mixture with beauty supply H2O2, but in
far less quantity than needed for the initial mixture.

YMMV


Harvey

Noted.

Thanks,

Dave

On 3/22/2019 7:40 PM, Harvey White wrote:

On Fri, 22 Mar 2019 20:31:31 -0400, you wrote:

I found Sally Beauty Supply to be a good source for H2O2. I recall the
"volume" rating is a bit more than 3x the concentration, so "30 Volume"
H2O2 is 10% concentration.

Do be careful, since the drugstore concentration is far less than the
various products available in beauty supply stores.

I'd think that the best use is as follows:

1) build the etchant with drugstore H2O2 and HCL.

2) when desired, top up the mixture with beauty supply H2O2, but in
far less quantity than needed for the initial mixture.

YMMV


Harvey