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Re: Recursive VM installation?

 

On Tue, Mar 11, 2025 at 11:30:46AM -0400, Ross Patterson via groups.io wrote:
On Tue, Mar 11, 2025 at 10:50 Alexander Huemer via groups.io <aziD5eeth9fe=
[email protected]> wrote:

You can install VM on top of VM
My knee-jerk question to my instructor back then was:

How deep can you go?
He didn't know.
Technically, there is no limit. Diagnose code x'0000' will attempt to
return up to 5 levels of CP info. Practically, the "top level" system gets
slower and slower as you add more levels of CP underneath it. It was
common to run two levels for testing purposes, back in the 70s and 80s, but
not for production, due to poor performance. With today's real and
emulated mainframes, you could easily do more than that in production.
That sounds encouraging, thanks for laying that out.
I would think too that performance shouldn't be a problem.
This is very much an academic exercise anyways. The idea is just to
demonstrate that it is possible, not to solve any real-world problem.

Ever since, I have an idea in my head that comes back occasionally.
Can you install VM 'recursively'?
What I mean by that is the following:
...
Yes, but you'd have to write that installation process yourself. Nothing
in the normal VM installation makes that simple.
Right. The problem is, I know so little about VM and its ecosystem that
I don't even know where to start.

I am lacking the experience with VM to assess whether this is
possible at all or if perhaps it is possible in principle but only
with later versions of VM than VM/370 or something like that.
Successive later versions of VM have added more and more functions to
improve automation capabilites. Stuff like the Secondary Console Image
Facility.
Sounds great, but I can't say I really know what that is.

In case anybody on this list is interested to tinker on this, please let
me know, on of off list.

-Alex
Re: Recursive VM installation?

 

On Tue, Mar 11, 2025 at 10:50 Alexander Huemer via <aziD5eeth9fe=[email protected]> wrote:
> You can install VM on top of VM

My knee-jerk question to my instructor back then was:

> How deep can you go?

He didn't know.

Technically, there is no limit.? Diagnose code x'0000' will attempt to return up to 5 levels of CP info.? Practically, the "top level" system gets slower and slower as you add more levels of CP underneath it.? It was common to run two levels for testing purposes, back in the 70s and 80s, but not for production, due to poor performance.? With today's real and emulated mainframes, you could easily do more than that in production.

Ever since, I have an idea in my head that comes back occasionally.
Can you install VM 'recursively'?
What I mean by that is the following:
...

Yes, but you'd have to write that installation process yourself.? Nothing in the normal VM installation makes that simple.

I am lacking the experience with VM to assess whether this is possible
at all or if perhaps it is possible in principle but only with later
versions of VM than VM/370 or something like that.

Successive later versions of VM have added more and more functions to improve automation capabilites.? Stuff like the Secondary Console Image Facility.

Ross
Recursive VM installation?

 

Hi

I am new to this group.
Let me please provide a bit of background why I am making this post.
At my first IT job in 1999 there was an IBM 9221 running VM/ESA and on
top of that VSE/ESA. My involvement with that machine was
(unfortunately) very sporadic, I had to look after other tech.
I got very basic training on the machine, enabling me to do some simple
things ('v net, act' and stuff like that). Unfortunately I forgot most
of what I knew back then over the last 25 years due to not being
involved with mainframes professionally.
While I do play with mainframe tech in my spare time a bit, I cannot
claim any in-depth knowledge.
One thing that was explained to me back then was very impressive to me
and stuck in my mind.

You can install VM on top of VM
My knee-jerk question to my instructor back then was:

How deep can you go?
He didn't know.

Ever since, I have an idea in my head that comes back occasionally.
Can you install VM 'recursively'?
What I mean by that is the following:
Can you prepare an IPL-able VM tape that does the following:
* IPL (obviously)
* without user interaction:
* Some arithmetic to assess suitable values for the next step like
available memory (storage) and available DASD space
* create the necessary infrastructure to run a VM guest
(user account, minidisk, etc.) with the pre-computed values from the
last step
* IPL the same tape that was used originally for the 'bare-metal'
installation inside the just created VM
* Configure the guest system so that it can be reached from the
outside via a 3270 session or some such

This process is supposed to run as unattended as possible, continuing
until some inherent nesting limitation of VM is reached or a required
resource like storage or DASD space is exhausted.

I am lacking the experience with VM to assess whether this is possible
at all or if perhaps it is possible in principle but only with later
versions of VM than VM/370 or something like that.

Anyways, I would be interested in the opinion of people on this mailing
list regarding this topic.
Perhaps you'll tell me this is a stupid idea, but hey ho.

-Alex
Re: Lotus 1-2-3/M

 

I have LOTUS 123 running under Ubuntu 22.04 Desktop.? Have not used LOTUS since
the late 1980's.? Trying to remember and read up so maybe my memory comes back.

/cheers
/tom c


On Mon, Mar 10, 2025 at 9:09?AM Stefan Haubenthal via <polluks=[email protected]> wrote:
Well,
we have this info
a book
and a (32-bit SCO Unix binary modified to work on Linux).
What a pity.
?
--
VM/370 CE V1R1.2, Hercules on macOS
Re: Lotus 1-2-3/M

 

Well,
we have this info
a book
and a (32-bit SCO Unix binary modified to work on Linux).
What a pity.
?
--
VM/370 CE V1R1.2, Hercules on macOS
Re: Lotus 1-2-3/M

 

As far as I know, nobody has it any more to have any experience with it.


On Sat, Mar 8, 2025 at 3:22?PM Stefan Haubenthal via <polluks=[email protected]> wrote:
Hi there!
Does anyone have experience with 1-2-3?
?
--
VM/370 CE V1R1.2, Hercules on macOS



--
Jay Maynard
Lotus 1-2-3/M

 

Hi there!
Does anyone have experience with 1-2-3?
?
--
VM/370 CE V1R1.2, Hercules on macOS
Re: Quotation mark bug?

 

Let's take this topic offline, to the .? It's more complex than you might think - see my latest update.

Ross

On Tue, Mar 4, 2025 at 7:49?AM Herman Hartman via <herman.hartman=[email protected]> wrote:
Apparently having the same bug, I noticed some error messages on my HercGUI console:
?
CMS MAINT?
=========?
rexxtry
REXX interpreter running (CMS bREXX 1.0.1 Jul ?5 2022)
Enter any valid REXX instruction... type EXIT to quit.
Rexxtry;
''
DMSITP143T PROTECTION EXCEPTION OCCURRED AT F209CC IN SYSTEM ROUTINE EXEC, RE-IPL CMS.
CP ENTERED; DISABLED WAIT PSW '00020000 40F8B75E'
?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
HercGUI console:
===========
13:39:30.983 /13:39:30 GRAF 0C0 LOGON ?AS MAINT ? ?USERS = 005
13:39:47.518 HHC00801I Processor CP00: Protection exception interruption code 0004 ilc 4
13:39:47.521 HHC02324I PSW=07ED200000F209C8 INST=42420000 ? ? STC ? 4,0(2,0) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? store_character
13:39:47.521 HHC02326I V:00EBF000:R:00000000009C5000:K:06=9007F088 4100B000 55000688 47B0F078 ?..0h.......h..0.
13:39:47.521 HHC02269I GR00=00009290 GR01=00009218 GR02=00EBF000 GR03=000007A0
13:39:47.521 HHC02269I GR04=00000050 GR05=00E91EF8 GR06=000398AA GR07=000091C0
13:39:47.521 HHC02269I GR08=0003AC74 GR09=00009008 GR10=00F20CEC GR11=00009000
13:39:47.521 HHC02269I GR12=50F204DA GR13=000091C0 GR14=00F20A76 GR15=00039A78
13:39:47.521 HHC02271I CR00=81800CC0 CR01=0FFFAE80 CR02=FFFFFFFF CR03=00000000
13:39:47.521 HHC02271I CR04=00000000 CR05=00000000 CR06=A3F0BD58 CR07=00000000
13:39:47.521 HHC02271I CR08=00000000 CR09=00000000 CR10=00000000 CR11=00000000
13:39:47.521 HHC02271I CR12=00000000 CR13=00000000 CR14=EFC00000 CR15=00000000
?
Perhaps this helps.
?
Re: Quotation mark bug?

 

Apparently having the same bug, I noticed some error messages on my HercGUI console:
?
CMS MAINT?
=========?
rexxtry
REXX interpreter running (CMS bREXX 1.0.1 Jul ?5 2022)
Enter any valid REXX instruction... type EXIT to quit.
Rexxtry;
''
DMSITP143T PROTECTION EXCEPTION OCCURRED AT F209CC IN SYSTEM ROUTINE EXEC, RE-IPL CMS.
CP ENTERED; DISABLED WAIT PSW '00020000 40F8B75E'
?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
HercGUI console:
===========
13:39:30.983 /13:39:30 GRAF 0C0 LOGON ?AS MAINT ? ?USERS = 005
13:39:47.518 HHC00801I Processor CP00: Protection exception interruption code 0004 ilc 4
13:39:47.521 HHC02324I PSW=07ED200000F209C8 INST=42420000 ? ? STC ? 4,0(2,0) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? store_character
13:39:47.521 HHC02326I V:00EBF000:R:00000000009C5000:K:06=9007F088 4100B000 55000688 47B0F078 ?..0h.......h..0.
13:39:47.521 HHC02269I GR00=00009290 GR01=00009218 GR02=00EBF000 GR03=000007A0
13:39:47.521 HHC02269I GR04=00000050 GR05=00E91EF8 GR06=000398AA GR07=000091C0
13:39:47.521 HHC02269I GR08=0003AC74 GR09=00009008 GR10=00F20CEC GR11=00009000
13:39:47.521 HHC02269I GR12=50F204DA GR13=000091C0 GR14=00F20A76 GR15=00039A78
13:39:47.521 HHC02271I CR00=81800CC0 CR01=0FFFAE80 CR02=FFFFFFFF CR03=00000000
13:39:47.521 HHC02271I CR04=00000000 CR05=00000000 CR06=A3F0BD58 CR07=00000000
13:39:47.521 HHC02271I CR08=00000000 CR09=00000000 CR10=00000000 CR11=00000000
13:39:47.521 HHC02271I CR12=00000000 CR13=00000000 CR14=EFC00000 CR15=00000000
?
Perhaps this helps.
?
Re: Quotation mark bug?

 

At least VM/SP REXX/370 works fine, this a not common issue.
?
--
VM/370 CE V1R1.2, Hercules on macOS
Re: Quotation mark bug?

 

开云体育

REGINA seems to have a similar issue on win64.

Output of empty.rex is similar to dir *.

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Mark A. Stevens via groups.io
Sent: Freitag, 28. Februar 2025 17:09
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [h390-vm] Quotation mark bug?

?

On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 02:28 AM, Stefan Haubenthal wrote:

Enter any valid REXX instruction... type EXIT to quit.
Rexxtry;
''
DMSITP143T PROTECTION EXCEPTION OCCURRED AT F20A02 IN SYSTEM ROUTINE EXEC, RE-IPL CMS.
CP ENTERED; DISABLED WAIT PSW '00020000 40F8B75E'

Similar to this is the following.This is the beta bREXX Ross made avaialble.

?

l rexx * * ( date
Filename Filetype Fm ?Format ? ?Recs Blocks ? ? Date ? ?Time
REXX ? ? TEXT ? ? E1 ?F ? ?80 ? ?131 ? ? 14 ?01/19/25 ? 20:52
REXX ? ? C ? ? ? ?F1 ?V ? ?98 ? ?477 ? ? 19 ?01/19/25 ? 20:49
REXX ? ? H ? ? ? ?F1 ?V ? ?74 ? ?236 ? ? ?8 ?01/19/25 ? 20:49
REXX ? ? HELPCMD ?F1 ?V ? ?78 ? ? ?9 ? ? ?1 ?01/19/25 ? 20:49
REXX ? ? HELP$CM ?U2 ?V ? ?78 ? ?125 ? ? ?5 ?07/06/22 ? 21:44
REXX ? ? HELPCMD ?U2 ?V ? ?78 ? ? ?9 ? ? ?1 ?01/19/25 ? 20:49
Ready; T=0.01/0.01 10:05:32

?

I pressed the Enter key two more times after typing:? empty Enter

?

IPL CMS
VM Community Edition V1 R1.2

Y (19E) R/O
U (19D) R/O
B (5E5) R/O
Ready; T=0.01/0.01 09:56:04
type empty exec a
?
/* */
''
?
Ready; T=0.01/0.01 09:56:09
empty
?
DMSITP143T PROTECTION EXCEPTION OCCURRED AT F20A02 IN SYSTEM ROUTINE EXEC, RE-IP
L CMS.
CP ENTERED; DISABLED WAIT PSW '00020000 40F8B75E'

?

?

?... Mark S.
Re: Quotation mark bug?

 

On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 02:28 AM, Stefan Haubenthal wrote:
Enter any valid REXX instruction... type EXIT to quit.
Rexxtry;
''
DMSITP143T PROTECTION EXCEPTION OCCURRED AT F20A02 IN SYSTEM ROUTINE EXEC, RE-IPL CMS.
CP ENTERED; DISABLED WAIT PSW '00020000 40F8B75E'
Similar to this is the following.This is the beta bREXX Ross made avaialble.
?
l rexx * * ( date
Filename Filetype Fm ?Format ? ?Recs Blocks ? ? Date ? ?Time
REXX ? ? TEXT ? ? E1 ?F ? ?80 ? ?131 ? ? 14 ?01/19/25 ? 20:52
REXX ? ? C ? ? ? ?F1 ?V ? ?98 ? ?477 ? ? 19 ?01/19/25 ? 20:49
REXX ? ? H ? ? ? ?F1 ?V ? ?74 ? ?236 ? ? ?8 ?01/19/25 ? 20:49
REXX ? ? HELPCMD ?F1 ?V ? ?78 ? ? ?9 ? ? ?1 ?01/19/25 ? 20:49
REXX ? ? HELP$CM ?U2 ?V ? ?78 ? ?125 ? ? ?5 ?07/06/22 ? 21:44
REXX ? ? HELPCMD ?U2 ?V ? ?78 ? ? ?9 ? ? ?1 ?01/19/25 ? 20:49
Ready; T=0.01/0.01 10:05:32
?
I pressed the Enter key two more times after typing:? empty Enter
?
IPL CMS
VM Community Edition V1 R1.2

Y (19E) R/O
U (19D) R/O
B (5E5) R/O
Ready; T=0.01/0.01 09:56:04
type empty exec a
?
/* */
''
?
Ready; T=0.01/0.01 09:56:09
empty
?
DMSITP143T PROTECTION EXCEPTION OCCURRED AT F20A02 IN SYSTEM ROUTINE EXEC, RE-IP
L CMS.
CP ENTERED; DISABLED WAIT PSW '00020000 40F8B75E'
?
?
?... Mark S.
Re: Quotation mark bug?

 

I've opened for this.? I can reproduce it in both bREXX 1.0.1 (i.e., VM/370 CE 1.1.2) and the new bREXX 1.1.1.

Ross

On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 3:28?AM Stefan Haubenthal via <polluks=[email protected]> wrote:
rexxtry
REXX interpreter running (CMS bREXX 1.0.1 Jul ?5 2022)
Enter any valid REXX instruction... type EXIT to quit.
Rexxtry;
''
DMSITP143T PROTECTION EXCEPTION OCCURRED AT F20A02 IN SYSTEM ROUTINE EXEC, RE-IPL CMS.
CP ENTERED; DISABLED WAIT PSW '00020000 40F8B75E'
?
--
VM/370 CE V1R1.2, Hercules on macOS
Re: BCPL request

 

开云体育

Yes, but how do they help?

?

Dave

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Stefan Haubenthal via groups.io
Sent: 28 February 2025 09:59
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [h390-vm] BCPL request

?

I see. So far these posts are not CMS specific: and .

?

--

VM/370 CE V1R1.2, Hercules on macOS
Re: BCPL request

 

I see. So far these posts are not CMS specific: and .
?
--
VM/370 CE V1R1.2, Hercules on macOS
Re: How to save CMS system?

 

Ahh, yes.. people not playing nicely with other people's stuff.. that's why in the mid-70s my 2nd or 3rd CP mod was to force disconnect idle VMs after 10 minutes
?
cheers, William
Re: BCPL request

 

On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 03:46 PM, Stefan Haubenthal wrote:
says

"... [Martin Richards] was on a sabbatical at IBM Research in the early '70s, and I succeeded him in being the 'keeper of the keys' for his port of BCPL to VM/CMS. He had left everything in perfect order for me to take over. I continued to use this BCPL until I left IBM in 1993 (20 years, pretty good record for durability).

I built a theorem prover (for Effigy [symbolic execution] headed by Jim King) in a personally modified BCPL. ..." []

--
VM/370 CE V1R1.2, Hercules on macOS
?
Never seen BCPL on VM/CMS. Can't find any downloads. Martin Richards still has a web page but no VM/CMS version on there...
I think you might be on your own...
?
Dave
?
BCPL request

 

says

"... [Martin Richards] was on a sabbatical at IBM Research in the early '70s, and I succeeded him in being the 'keeper of the keys' for his port of BCPL to VM/CMS. He had left everything in perfect order for me to take over. I continued to use this BCPL until I left IBM in 1993 (20 years, pretty good record for durability).

I built a theorem prover (for Effigy [symbolic execution] headed by Jim King) in a personally modified BCPL. ..." []

--
VM/370 CE V1R1.2, Hercules on macOS
Re: How to save CMS system?

 

The VMREAD is there for the SAVESYS CMS as well as for an ACCESS (NOPROF.?
?
I remember the early days at IBM's VM test center in Belgium: people that left their 3270 logged on often suffered from someone including a CP LOGOFF in their PROFILE EXEC, harder to fix without this VM READ:
LOGON xxxx NOIPL
CP DEFINE 191 199
CP IPL CMS
ACCESS 199 A
Fix PROFILE EXEC
?
--
Kris Buelens
Re: How to save CMS system?

 

You're missing a crucial detail for an absolutely safe RENAME
  1. CP LINK sharedDisk xxxx 111 M
  2. ACCESS 111 N
  3. COPYFILE ABC EXEC A ABC NEWEXEC N (OLDDATE
  4. RENAME ABC EXEC N = OLDEXEC N (NOUPDIRT
  5. RENAME ABC NEWEXEC N = EXEC =
  6. RELEASE N (DETACH
The trick is NOUPD in step 4.? It makes that this RENAME is done in your storage only.? Any user just accessing this shared MDISK at this time will still see the old ABC EXEC.
The RENAME in step 5 causes the mdisk to be updated, both step 4 and 5 are then executed as an atomic event (and that was mentioned in the original message, without the NOUPD there's no such trick)
?
Beware: don't do any other update to disk N between step 4 and 5 or there is a while with only ABC OLDEXEC present on the mdisk.
And, do not ERASE ABC OLDEXEC before you are sure that all users of this shared disk have reACCESSed it.? ?Users that do not reACCESS have for ABC EXEC pointers in storage that point to what now is ABC OLDEXEC on disk.? If you erase if too soon, their pointers point to a place on the mdisk that can be overwritten at any moment
?
--
Kris Buelens
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