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Yaesu FT-818ND Discontinued Manufacturing
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I would think with Yaesu discontinuing the FT818 is more to do with competition and drop in sales. If the rig was selling very well I would think Yaesu would find a way to keep it in production.? When the fT817 came out it had little competition and what followed was expensive like the KX3.? Now a totally different story.
We all know of the many now more advanced QRP rigs on the market, some for less then the FT818 and so many have new technology, IF DSP, band scopes, etc.
This might also lead Yaesu to not provide a replacement.
73, ron, n9ee/r Ron Wright, N9EE/R Hernando Co ARES EC
Spring Hill, Florida also n9ee55@...
On Sunday, January 8, 2023 at 08:42:10 PM EST, VE1RNM <rickmoskovits@...> wrote:
Well said Paul, a most eloquent letter and an interesting and informative story about the Porsche 911, I have an original 2002 manufacture 817, original finals that I would never part with.
I hope the brass at yaesu pay attention to what you have said.
Vy73,
Rick VE1RNM?
I’ve rarely seen such an outpouring of affection for an inanimate
object as I’m seeing on line about the end of the FT-817/818.
It reminded me of a conversation I had with a gentlemen named Peter
Schutz who was the CEO of Porsche in the 80’s. As a result I decided
to pen a note to Yaesu. I’m sure it will fall on deaf ears but here is what I wrote to Yaesu:
Dear Yaesu:
I was sorry to learn of the passing of a legend…the Yaesu FT-817/818.
I suspect the engineers had more to do with this decision than the
marketing folks. In my humble opinion there is still a lot of life
left in this radio.?In fact, hearing the news reminded me of a story that was told to me
by Peter Schutz who was the CEO of Porsche and credited with saving
the company in the 80’s. I happened to be?at a conference where I had an opportunity to meet Peter.? At the
meeting Peter told me when he took over as CEO of Porsche the company
was planning to end the life of the Porsche 911 based upon the
engineers assessment that the car had reached the end of its life
cycle. He spent some time with the marketing and sales teams as well
as various racing partners and customers and concluded that the
Porsche 911 should not be put to death but rather it should be
“evolved”. It should keep its fundamental DNA and form factor but
evolve to a more modern and improved state. He challenged the
engineers to make it happen. And they did! The end result is that he
saved the 911 and the Company in the process.
While the situation isn’t exactly the same…Yaesu is not in a life and
death struggle…this product has become an Icon for the Yaesu Brand.
The FT-817/818 represents innovative rugged versatility that to this
day is unmatched in what has become a legendary form factor. In my
opinion it represents a unique opportunity for Yaesu. There was
nothing like it when first introduced and it has not had a significant
competitor since!
I hope Yaesu will find a way to evolve the model in the same way
Porsche has evolved the 911. Whether you see a 1969 Porsche 911 on the
street or a 2022 Porsche 911 you know it’s a 911. They’re vastly
different animals…yet they are the same. It’s a legendary brand and a
testament to engineering brilliance. I see the same opportunity for
Yaesu with the FT-817/818. I hope Yaesu follows suit.
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On Sun, Jan 8, 2023 at 07:32 PM, Ken N2VIP wrote:
"Keep xtal filters"?
?
Sourced from whom, exactly?
A valid question. But I think the manufacturers are illogical. A xtal filter, all you need is ONE lump of quartz in series with the 455Khz signal to make a CW filter. SSB filters actually require more lumps of quartz at slightly different frequencies to construct an SSB filter, so technically it's the SSB filters that should always cost more. Cost ? Well it's not like growing a lump of quartz is difficult is it, we don't need to mine the stuff these days, we just grow it now like tomatoes in a greenhouse ;-) PCB space ? Oh my god, one lump of of quartz on the PCB, no big deal. And quartz is great, it has real rf rejection, and doesn't require an IC or an algorithm to make it work. And you don't need a programmer to change it's characteristics, just a twiddle stick and trimmer. Now think of this too. You can purchase QRP frequency xtals for $3 a piece. it's the same lump of quartz, made the same why to a slightly different dimension, so I'm still? a bit miffed about why such a simple part is evading so called engineers in Japan. It's a false problem. 73 de Andy
And they tend to be physically large, forcing certain compromises regarding radio packaging - modern, QRP/Portable radios are built like HTs for good reason.
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Yet, somehow Yaesu can't source filters for their radios... Yaesu can sell those 'lumps of quartz' for $150/ea, if there was a source, they'd still offer them IMHO Ken, N2VIP
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On Jan 9, 2023, at 13:05, Andy Foad via groups.io <andyfoad@...> wrote:
?On Sun, Jan 8, 2023 at 07:32 PM, Ken N2VIP wrote:
"Keep xtal filters"?
?
Sourced from whom, exactly?
A valid question. But I think the manufacturers are illogical. A xtal filter, all you need is ONE lump of quartz in series with the 455Khz signal to make a CW filter. SSB filters actually require more lumps of quartz at slightly different frequencies to construct an SSB filter, so technically it's the SSB filters that should always cost more. Cost ? Well it's not like growing a lump of quartz is difficult is it, we don't need to mine the stuff these days, we just grow it now like tomatoes in a greenhouse ;-) PCB space ? Oh my god, one lump of of quartz on the PCB, no big deal. And quartz is great, it has real rf rejection, and doesn't require an IC or an algorithm to make it work. And you don't need a programmer to change it's characteristics, just a twiddle stick and trimmer. Now think of this too. You can purchase QRP frequency xtals for $3 a piece. it's the same lump of quartz, made the same why to a slightly different dimension, so I'm still? a bit miffed about why such a simple part is evading so called engineers in Japan. It's a false problem. 73 de Andy
And they tend to be physically large, forcing certain compromises regarding radio packaging - modern, QRP/Portable radios are built like HTs for good reason.
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On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 08:05 PM, Andy Foad wrote:
And quartz is great, it has real rf rejection, and doesn't require an IC or an algorithm
to make it work.
And you don't need a programmer to change it's characteristics, just a twiddle stick and trimmer.
Nearly all modern radios are direct conversion (I/Q translation) followed by DSP to make the bandwith.
The days of a hetrodyne receiver converting to 455kHz for IF filtering with a mechanical / ceramic filter have gone.
There is a strong reason that the Collins filters are no longer in production; if there was sufficient demand production would not have ceased several years ago.
And while I suspect that the fatal parts shortage was because of the CPU (made by Renesas, the H8 family has been end-of-life for years and the fire in the Renesas semiconductor fab has set up production I'd think), we should consider that it is unwise to design or plan to produce a radio with 455kHz filters because they are on their way out.
While yaesu has the technology to create direct-sampling radios (as their newer radios do), the question is whether they are willing and able to convert that technology to radios of the formfactor of the FT817. Yaesu has made some crazy designs in the past (FT90, FTM-10, FT817), that is many years and several reorganisations ago. We'll have to wait and see.
But I think it will be extremely unlikely to see a new hetrodyne portable radio. That technology has passed.
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Once the Hilbert transform made nearly perfect filter performance possible, using digital processing (at the price of latency), mechanical filters and all their intermodulation issues were doomed. A 14 bit SDR with a Raspberry Pi and a LCD display puts almost any analog receiver to shame. There are even a few SDR that only require the power from a USB port to operate. It is tempting to me to tap the FT-817 after the mixer and use the FT-817 as a tuner and use the SDR as the receiver IF and a tablet as the IF controls and speaker. The SDR is less costly than the obsolete Collins mechanic filter.
Jim/VEZ?
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Geert
How does the FT-817 become a "crazy design" when they probably sold more of these than any other radio of the past twenty years?
What data supports this "crazy" statement?
If they cannot get chips then pull the radio off the market to avoid support issues makes perfect sense.
Now we will get 10,000 more emails over crystal filters
I have made thousands of contacts with the 817 but many think it's all niche market but every month or so? there is a new QRP radio being introduced.
I would say the? FT-817 is a brilliant product that many clones could not and have yet to reproduce it's functionality.
If I recall?correctly, Yaesu thought they might sell 10,000 units and now this crazy radio has exceeded over 250,000 units. That's crazy.
John VE3IPS? Hiding in a flame proof bag
-- John VE3IPS Radio is a Lifestyle not a Hobby Oprah added the ARRL Handbook to her list
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John,
I read the "crazy" product description as in "crazy, outside the box thinking, design", not bad, wrong, or any other way AT THE TIME IT WAS INTRODUCED.
He also mentioned the ultra-compact FT-90:
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And the FTM-10:
As other "crazy" designs.
His use of "crazy" was as a synonym for "ground-breaking in my opinion.
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On Jan 10, 2023, at 09:09, John <ve3ips@...> wrote:
?
Geert
How does the FT-817 become a "crazy design" when they probably sold more of these than any other radio of the past twenty years?
What data supports this "crazy" statement?
If they cannot get chips then pull the radio off the market to avoid support issues makes perfect sense.
Now we will get 10,000 more emails over crystal filters
I have made thousands of contacts with the 817 but many think it's all niche market but every month or so? there is a new QRP radio being introduced.
I would say the? FT-817 is a brilliant product that many clones could not and have yet to reproduce it's functionality.
If I recall?correctly, Yaesu thought they might sell 10,000 units and now this crazy radio has exceeded over 250,000 units. That's crazy.
John VE3IPS?
Hiding in a flame proof bag
--
John VE3IPS
Radio is a Lifestyle not a Hobby
Oprah added the ARRL Handbook to her list
SDR's are pretty crappy for REAL RF rejection.
An SDR is taking everything and only tailoring it's output to end user expectations.
But at the end the DAY, unwanted signals still enter the "front end",there are still screwing up your
total dynamic range algorithms and FFT only sugar coats the problem.
But lumps of quartz have real RF rejection.
A good old fashioned superhet with tradition parts can be fixed.
An obsolete FET or whatever can be easily substituted for something else when it's blown.
A custom IC not publicly available, no chance.
I buy a rig to invest in, not a crappy iphone with built in obsolescence.
Any why is a company like Yaesu with? some 60 year heritage, commercial input from Motorola,
Marantz, Standard Horizon, Sommerkamp etc placing itself at the mercy of ONE single point of failure,
Colllins, a company who's peak was not long after WW2 FFS !
They can easily spend a few $'s, make a simple quartz growing lab and make their own.
It's what the Chinese do every day !!
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You have a very simplistic view of the industry - you seem to believe that every hard-won technical advancement beyond superhet receivers with 'slabs of quartz' is a step backwards performance-wise and nothing more than an effort to build in planned obsolescence because anything more specific than a generic thru-hole component will ultimately render the device useless when it can't be replaced.
Then, in a startling turn, you attack Collins, the company that represented the state of the art in radio transceiver design when radios were built with your preferred discrete, off-the-shelf components!
My original statement still stands:
Yet, somehow Yaesu can't source filters for their radios...?Yaesu can sell those 'lumps of quartz' for $150/ea, if there was a source, they'd still offer them.
Ken, N2VIP On Jan 10, 2023, at 13:06, Andy Foad via groups.io <andyfoad@...> wrote:
?SDR's are pretty crappy REAL RF rejection.
An SDR is taking everything and only tailoring it's output to end user expectations.
But at the end the DAY, unwanted signals still enter the "front end",there are still screwing up your
total dynamic range algorithms and FFT only sugar coats the problem.
But lumps of quartz have real RF rejection.
A good old fashioned superhet with tradition parts can be fixed.
An obsolete FET or whatever can be easily substituted for something else when it's blown.
A custom IC not publicly available, no chance.
I buy a rig to invest in, not a crappy iphone with built in obsolescence.
Any why is a company like Yaesu with? some 60 year heritage, commercial input from Motorola,
Marantz, Standard Horizon, Sommerkamp etc placing itself at the mercy of ONE single point of failure,
Colllins, a company who's peak was not long after WW2 FFS !
They can easily spend a few $'s, make a simple quartz growing lab and make their own.
It's what the Chinese do every day !!
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Has anyone seen anything about Yaesu being able to continue offering repair service on the FT817's ? Rich, W1GBB
Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
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-------- Original message -------- From: Ken N2VIP <ken@...> Date: 1/10/23 14:18 (GMT-05:00) Subject: Re: [ft817] Yaesu FT-818ND Discontinued Manufacturing
You have a very simplistic view of the industry - you seem to believe that every hard-won technical advancement beyond superhet receivers with 'slabs of quartz' is a step backwards performance-wise and nothing more than an effort to build in planned obsolescence because anything more specific than a generic thru-hole component will ultimately render the device useless when it can't be replaced.
Then, in a startling turn, you attack Collins, the company that represented the state of the art in radio transceiver design when radios were built with your preferred discrete, off-the-shelf components!
My original statement still stands:
Yet, somehow Yaesu can't source filters for their radios...?Yaesu can sell those 'lumps of quartz' for $150/ea, if there was a source, they'd still offer them.
Ken, N2VIP On Jan 10, 2023, at 13:06, Andy Foad via groups.io <andyfoad@...> wrote:
?SDR's are pretty crappy REAL RF rejection.
An SDR is taking everything and only tailoring it's output to end user expectations.
But at the end the DAY, unwanted signals still enter the "front end",there are still screwing up your
total dynamic range algorithms and FFT only sugar coats the problem.
But lumps of quartz have real RF rejection.
A good old fashioned superhet with tradition parts can be fixed.
An obsolete FET or whatever can be easily substituted for something else when it's blown.
A custom IC not publicly available, no chance.
I buy a rig to invest in, not a crappy iphone with built in obsolescence.
Any why is a company like Yaesu with? some 60 year heritage, commercial input from Motorola,
Marantz, Standard Horizon, Sommerkamp etc placing itself at the mercy of ONE single point of failure,
Colllins, a company who's peak was not long after WW2 FFS !
They can easily spend a few $'s, make a simple quartz growing lab and make their own.
It's what the Chinese do every day !!
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On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 07:18 PM, Ken N2VIP wrote:
Then, in a startling turn, you attack Collins,
I called out Yeasu for making one company (Collins) it's own Achilles heel in within it's supply chain. Do you know what an Achilles heel is Ken, and do you know what yours is ? ;-) Goodbye ! 73 de Andy
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Circa 2000, aside from Collins, did you provide Yaesu with a list of alternate sources for 'slabs of quartz', or was Collins the only supplier still in business?
So if Collins was the only source for 'slabs of quartz' should Yaesu have designed the FT-817, FT-857, and FT-897 without 'slab of quartz' filters?
I guess the real question which is worse, going with a single-source component, or going without 'slab of quartz' filters in the first place? Yaesu's 15+ year run with their single-source component (Collins filters) seems to be a good decision in hindsight. Ken, N2VIP
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On Jan 10, 2023, at 13:33, Andy Foad via groups.io <andyfoad@...> wrote:
?On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 07:18 PM, Ken N2VIP wrote:
Then, in a startling turn, you attack Collins,
I called out Yeasu for making one company (Collins) it's own Achilles heel in within it's supply chain. Do you know what an Achilles heel is Ken, and do you know what yours is ? ;-) Goodbye ! 73 de Andy
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Hi all, ? Time marches on – just as well we’re no longer reliant on the coherer! ? 73….Eric VK2VE. ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of John
Sent: Wednesday, 11 January 2023 02:08
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [ft817] Yaesu FT-818ND Discontinued Manufacturing? Geert How does the FT-817 become a "crazy design" when they probably sold more of these than any other radio of the past twenty years? What data supports this "crazy" statement? If they cannot get chips then pull the radio off the market to avoid support issues makes perfect sense. Now we will get 10,000 more emails over crystal filters I have made thousands of contacts with the 817 but many think it's all niche market but every month or so? there is a new QRP radio being introduced. I would say the? FT-817 is a brilliant product that many clones could not and have yet to reproduce it's functionality. If I recall?correctly, Yaesu thought they might sell 10,000 units and now this crazy radio has exceeded over 250,000 units. That's crazy. Hiding in a flame proof bag
--
John VE3IPS
Radio is a Lifestyle not a Hobby
Oprah added the ARRL Handbook to her list
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On 10 Jan 2023, at 20:51, Ken N2VIP <ken@...> wrote:
Circa 2000, aside from Collins, did you provide Yaesu with a list of alternate sources for 'slabs of quartz', or was Collins the only supplier still in business?
So if Collins was the only source for 'slabs of quartz' should Yaesu have designed the FT-817, FT-857, and FT-897 without 'slab of quartz' filters?
I guess the real question which is worse, going with a single-source component, or going without 'slab of quartz' filters in the first place? Yaesu's 15+ year run with their single-source component (Collins filters) seems to be a good decision in hindsight. As a matter of fact, the optional Collins filters were mechanical ones, not crystal. Not that it matters though. And unless I am very wrong the rest of the filters are ceramics. It is understandable that this small rig gets so much love. The design feat was amazing! Alas, there are no alternative high quality filters (you can get mediocre ones on eBay but not comparable to the Collins mechanicals) and SDR technology has evolved and got cheaper. SDR is not a magic bullet, it still needs a bombproof analog front end. Moreover, SDR is much more demanding for front ends. But once the signal enters the digital domain you don?t need carefully matched components or delicate adjustments. Look at the performance of an IC-7200 or IC-7300 for instance. Borja, EA2EKH
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On 10 Jan 2023, at 20:33, Andy Foad via groups.io <andyfoad@...> wrote:
On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 07:18 PM, Ken N2VIP wrote:
Then, in a startling turn, you attack Collins,
I called out Yeasu for making one company (Collins) it's own Achilles heel in within it's supply chain.
Do you know what an Achilles heel is Ken, and do you know what yours is ? ;-) The problem is, is there an alternative for Collins filters offering a similar performance at that price point? I got the optional SSB filter for my 817 and its performance is unbelievable. Fitting that suddenly you have a completely different radio! 73, Borja, EA2EKH
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Or the spark transmitter, or Grandad's special pencil for drawing
grid leak resistors…
73, Stay Safe, Robin, G8DQX
On 10/01/2023 21:14, Eric van de Weyer
wrote:
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Hi
all,
?
Time
marches on – just as well we’re no longer reliant on the
coherer!
?
73….Eric VK2VE.
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In that case you completely ruined the compact design and form factor of FT817/818… radio + dsp unit + tablet + another accessories …huh ;)
Petr
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Borja
I have both the 7200 superhet and the 7300 SDR
The 7200 survived a brief mini tornado downpour whereas the 7300 would have gotten waterlogged
The 7200 seems to be a redone 718 but the 7300 has better blocking performance but ?tends to be a noise magnet and overloads more easily in a multi radio environment like field day.
For POTA , the last 3 outings were with the 705 into an RM Italy amp.
I will bring the 818 out next time then try the 703
The 703 is another classic rig that came out when the 817 did.
One has a tuner but needs the external battery where the other can house the Windcamp battery inside. The 817/818 is a great travel radio with its wider coverage means I can leave the HT at home. It fits in my carry on Think Tank camera bag in the side pocket very easily and the 705 kleenex box style radio is harder to fit.
So many “crazy” radios so little time but the japanese bring the best in reliability and quality.?
Yes Elecraft rocks as well but I never felt my KX3 could handle the rain splashing on it and getting into the display.?
For outdoor ops thats important to me.
Now the FT897 with its batteries was brilliant as well.
I just love the modular connector on the 817/818 and the cw filter is a must.
I spent more $$$ at W4RT than the radio itself John VE3IPS
-- Sent with a Palm Pilot.
Radio: it's not just a hobby, it's a way of life
Throw a wire in a tree and go make QSO
Rice Crackers taste better while outdoors
FT8 tap tap is not Ham Radio
-- John VE3IPS Radio is a Lifestyle not a Hobby Oprah added the ARRL Handbook to her list
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On 11 Jan 2023, at 14:03, John <ve3ips@...> wrote:
Borja
I have both the 7200 superhet and the 7300 SDR
The 7200 survived a brief mini tornado downpour whereas the 7300 would have gotten waterlogged
The 7200 seems to be a redone 718 but the 7300 has better blocking performance but tends to be a noise magnet and overloads more easily in a multi radio environment like field day. Sorry, wrong :) Look at the block diagram / schematics. The IC-7200 is a superhet SDR. Yes, it has traditional conversions, a roofing filter… But the last conversion is a digital stage (at the time some called it IF-DSP) with full digital filtering and modulation/demodulation. Remember, SDR means software defined radio, in which RF circuitry is replaced by digital signal processing. A SDR doesn?t need to be necessarily a *full* SDR in which *all* of the signal processing is digital. And no matter how good a SDR implementation is, it still needs a proper front end. Anyway my point was, the IC-7200 is a good example of a transceiver that doesn?t look like a fragile thingie with a flashy screen. It can have traditional controls and it can even be rugged. Actually, it can be made more rugged than a traditional set. The component count is much lower, you save lots of coils that might be points of failure due to damp conditions, etc. 73, Borja EA2EKH
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I have often described the FT-817/818 as a perfectly balanced set of compromises, and almost any changes would be viewed negatively by someone in the community (I remember list members that were almost angry when the FT-818 was released with the TCXO included from the factory, and let's not forget the battery-killing extra watt/revised power output levels in the updated FT-818, why it made life difficult for folks that used the FT-817/818 to drive microwave transverters, etc). With well over a quarter-million FT-817/818 sold, there are plenty to be had on the second-hand market until it's actual, proper replacement comes along... Ken, N2VIP On Jan 11, 2023, at 01:12, Borja Marcos <borjamar@...> wrote: <snip> It is understandable that this small rig gets so much love. The design feat was amazing!
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James Redding WA9VEZ
John
Borja Marcos