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EFFECTIVE RADIATED POWER
Fil W8FIL

Glyph wrote:

What is ERP -- earned run potential?

-- Bil

----- Original Message -----
From: KQ6XA <xtalradio@...>
To: <FT817@...>
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 6:34 PM
Subject: [FT817] Rules of Thumb: HF Portable Power/Antennas

Relative Scale of Approximate Power and S-Meter Signal Strength
For Various SSB Transmitting Systems at Low Takeoff Angles on 14MHz
(HF-DX)

S9: 1kW + beam = 4kW ERP
S8: 1kW + dipole = 1kW ERP
S7: 100W + beam = 400W ERP
S6: 50W + beam = 200W ERP
S6: 100W + dipole = 100W ERP
S5: 50W + high dipole = 50W ERP
S5: 12W + beam = 50W ERP
S4: 50W + low dipole = 25W ERP
S4: 12W + high dipole = 12W ERP
S3: 12W + low dipole = 3W ERP
S3: 50W + backpack whip = 12W ERP
S2: 5W + high dipole = 5W ERP
S2: 12W + backpack whip = 3W ERP
S1: 2.5W + high dipole = 2.5W ERP
S1: 5W + low dipole = 2.5W ERP
S1: 5W + backpack whip = ~1W ERP
S0: 2.5W + low dipole = ~1W ERP
S0: 2.5W + backpack whip = ~600mW ERP


NOTE: Comparison is approximate, based upon about 6dB for each

S-Unit,

and starting with a kilowatt into a 6dB gain triband yagi. Low

dipole

is considered to be about 3dB loss, and a loaded backpack whip is
considered to be about 6dB loss as compared to a high dipole.
Source: KQ6XA

73---Bonnie KQ6XA




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John,

I constructed the RS back of set antenna as seen in the files section.
I made a small wire-ring jumper for bypassing the coil and with
the bottom two sections out and the top section 2/3 rds out (I think).
It came up perfect on 50.125. Having said that I have not worked
any stations with it yet.

Alternatively, I am waiting for my mounting bracket from superantennas
and I intend to use a 3/8" whip tip adapter drilled out to accept the
banana plug of the above set. Then I should be good to go with on
6 and 2 side band. Btw, I have already made up a wire for counterpoise
use, but didn't need it today.

I can't wait to get in the mount bracket and start trying out all sorts
of other antennas.

72/73,

Bryan – k0emt

KQ6XA wrote:

No manufacturer is selling a better performing or
more versatile portable whip for the FT-817 at this
time, as far as I know. Anyone tried a better one?

Barry W4WB wrote:

Yes, I find the B&W AP-10A works somewhat better than the MP-1.

Now you have me intrigued, Barry!
How did you mount your B&W AP-10A on the FT-817? Is there a new B&W
FT-817 mount, or did you drill out the stock one?
Is the AP-10A different from the earlier "window sill antenna" they
have had for a long time? I think the earlier one required using tools
to move the frequency band taps, and for dis-assembly didn't it? Did
they change to 3/8-24 standard threads on the new one? That would
enable us to plug it into a regular mobile or MP-1 Superantenna FT-817
mount. Is the new one an "air dux" coil? How small does it pack up?

Bonnie KQ6XA

Whilst at local Radio Shack, I picked up a telescoping whip antenna
which extends to 72" for <$5. Thinking of adding either a BNC or PL-
259 connector to the end. With a counterpoise, it should work on 6m.
Certainly better than the rubber dummy load that ships with the 817.
Anybody tried this?

With a BNC connector on the end, I should be able to plug it right
into the jack on my ZM-2 tuner and end-feed it at a 6' whip. With
suitable counterpoise it should "work" on other bands. I wonder how
it will compare with the ATX and PM-1 (or is it MP-1, I can never
remember). I have Verne's last year model which works OK. It's a bit
fatter than the new one, and just as contankerous to tune without a
meter, but it does work.

For serious QRP portable workings, I take a 33' fiberglass mast on
which I hang assorted dipoles, deltas, and vertical wires. But
occasionally, I don't want to carry all that gear and just want
something small and light, which makes ATX and Maldol attractive, but
I hate the price.

Does anybody know where I can buy helium in a small spray can? A
couple of small baloons ought to hold up a decent length of wire for
an hour or two of operating. I thought about flying a kite (have been
told to do that before), but had a horrible mental image of me
chasing my 817 as a gust of wind drags it/me away...

This is a fun radio and a fun list.

I don't know about RSBG but ARRL will not accept eQSLs for awards.
73, Fil W8FIL

miket@... wrote:

Hi Group,

I just wondered if any of you are using for your
QSL cards these days ?

I've been using EQSL for a few months now and have had a great
response to my QSL requests, a lot quicker than waiting a year of two
via the buro !

I've even started getting EQSL cards from my FT817 /P operation last
weekend, now that's progress !

Hope this is of interest to some of you ...

Cheers!

MikeT ...
M0AWS



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--- In FT817@y..., "David Perry" <david.perry3@v...> wrote:

Peter,
the chaps getting good reports from their APs and ATXs should tell us
their height AMSL. Might have something to do with t. I read a

report last

night from a chap in (the?) high sierras. Sure he got a good

report...he

was 5000ft amsl. He I am about 300 feet, so my aerials ren't

good. But

they are SUPPOSED to be, so they fail.

The gegraphic location is going to change very little how one antenna
performs compared to another - and a with an 8' long whip antenna,
over the same ground, the only thing that is going to change
performance is HOW it is loaded, what the Q of the loading is, where
it is loaded, etc.

I have others who live nearby but up higher with roughly equal
antennas (Yagis or Quads) that can works stations with S-9 signals
that I can hardly hear. Just like in business, it is location,
location, location. But in this game, it is also propogation,
propogation, propogation.

The point, and others have made it, is that the MP1, for it's size,
weight, portability, and CONVIENIENCE, is a very good antenna. It
isn't always practical to put up a dipole, due to a variety of
reasons - most commonly - no supports.

I have bought an aluminium case for my rig now, houses the rig, the

tuner, a

wire aerial and a small flask of malt whiskey! Grab the case, go

for a walk

and have a lot of fun. The ATX stays at home where my wife uses it

to annoy

the cat.

What do I have in MY arsenal of portable antennas that I keep in a
plastic tub ready to throw in the back of the van for a road trip?

An SGC 231 with a 50' coax/power cable - wired up for my IC706IIG &
IC740.

An inexpensive manual MFJ tuner.

Several spools of inexpensive 22 gauge speaker wire - for antenna
elements and counterpoises.

A variety of SO239 to 3/8 - 24 mounts - mounted on a c-clamp, vise-
grip pliers, mega-triple-mag mount, tripod, mirror mount.

An Outbacker Tri-Split (which may be replaced by the MP-1)

An inexpensive short MFJ 2M/70CM magmount whith a whip that has a
3/8 - 24 thread mount.

2 25' lengths of RG8X with connectors and a barrel connector.

A Hy-gain center-insulator that has screw terminals.

Some end insulators.

2 spools of lightweight nylon string.

Some fishing weights.

A small switching 12volt / 20AMP supply with an Icom DC cable on it.

An Icom DC cable with battery clips on the end and covered with
spiral wrap protective plastic.

What did I take with me on a recent trip to Mexico?

My 817, a small power supply, the MP1 and it's mounts, 4 25' 14 gauge
radials, and one of the 25' cables from the above. All in a back-pack
that I could carry on.

Did it work as well as if I had lugged all that other stuff,
including the 706, with me and used it? Probably not.

Could I have put up a dipole? No.

Did I make some contacts? Yes.

Did I have fun? Yes! It is ALWAYS interesting (to me) operating from
a new location with less than optimal antennas, even if it is my in-
laws house 20 miles away.

Did I have as much fun as when I lugged all that other stuff to KH6
land 2 years ago? Yes.

Is there one antenna that will ALWAYS fit the need and give the best
results? No - but the MP-1, with (what I think is the key to that
antenna) a longer lower mast section is about the closest thing I
have found.

But I think this is the biggest problem here - we are working with a
low power radio and a relativly inefficent antenna - put that
together, and you have 2 strikes against you.

Put that in the hands of an experienced, skilled operator on CW and
you will get a hit. Put the same in the hands of a "rookie" -
especially on SSB - strike 3 - yer' out! That has a LOT to do with it
also.

I have said it before and it's worth reiterating...the 817 is good,

but

let's not pretend it enables us to go handheld HF on a five inch

rubber

duck. It doesn't, what it does do is enable us to take radio where

we

couldn't before. But the laws of AC physics hven't changed to

accommodate

Yaesu.

Yes - the laws of physics - it isn't just a good idea - it is the
LAW!!!

Don
W6ZO

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Zenker" <dl2fi@q...>
To: <FT817@y...>
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 9:15 AM
Subject: RE: [FT817] At least one MP-1 which is not so hot.

Gene,
dont forget this points:

1. The PM-1 will result in a 2-3 S-Units lower signal compared to

a dipol

in

good shape. If you produce a "just above noise" signal with a

dipol, you

will not be heard with the PM-1

2. All extrem short Monopole Antennas like the PM-1 have a

significant

greater dead zone due to very flat vertical radiation angle.

3. A long wire gives good gain in two directions. Hard to compare

with an

antenna which produces a round pattern.

IMHO Antennas as rigs are not "good" or "bad", they are good

under some

circumstances and bad under others. How good is my FT1000D if I

use it as

a

portable rig?

In my garden I use a GAP Titan and a G5RV installed at only 7m

hight. If I

try to make contacts below 1000 km, I prefere the G5RV because

its 3 to 4

S

Units better the the GAP. At DX contacts the GAP outperforms the

G5RV. So

it

was a good idea to compare the GAP with the PM-1. The GAP was ways

"better"

then the PM-1 on DX contacts - BUT - have you ever tried to carry

a GAP

Titan with you while biking or travelling by aeroplane?

If I see a chance to carry a real Antenna with me and to install

it, I do.

If I am on short trips the discussion is another. Its not to be

discussed

what Antenna is the best, but it the Question Antenna or no

Antenna ;-) So

I

decided to have the PM-1 instead of no Antenna.

72/73 de Peter, DL2FI

German QRP Group DL-QRP-AG
QRPproject QRP and homebrew international

-----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
Von: genemarshall@i... [mailto:genemarshall@i...]
Gesendet: 31. Mai 2001 23:55
An: FT817@y...
Betreff: [FT817] At least one MP-1 which is not so hot.


A few weeks ago I picked up an 817 and MP-1 ready to tackle

portable

HF again. After calling and returning to CQs for about three

days

across a two week period, I had one contact under my belt:

someone 12

miles away. I've tried all HF bands, and the MP-1 adjusted down

below

1.5:1 on each band so I wasn't even using a tuner.

Becoming pretty discouraged, I decided to throw out a long wire

and

see where I stood with that. Just as I did, I heard a CQ and

the opr

came back to me with a 589 (he was also in CA). Quite a change.

Just

as that QSO completed I had another contact and this opr.

offered to

wait around while I swapped back to the MP-1. After doing so he

came

back and said that he never would have responded to me

initially as I

was so far down in the noise. This station was in Sonoma County.
Going back to the long wire, we completed the QSO.

Needless to say, I'm a little sceptical about this antenna. This
coupled with the fact that the 817 mount doesn't have the holes
drilled properly so only two screws can be used to hold it to

the

817. I emailed this issue, with photos, to Vern but it's been

two

weeks with no reply. I guess it's going to cost me a return

trip to

Livermore to get that resolved.

Anyway, if anyone has any suggestions to offer on the

performance of

this antenna I'd appreciate it. At the moment I'll keep it in

the

junk box.




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Asked

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ordered my z11 from ldg and received it in about 3 weeks earlier

this

month. nice tuner, ran a long wire ant off it and it was just fun
with the 817 in the field.

Hmm interesting enough I called yesterday for a status from AES on
order and they informed me it shipped but out of another store
location. Sure enough UPS tracking says Ill have it Monday.

(In my best Stimpy impression) ...joy !!!

Even the gent in Milwaukee (where I ordered it of seemed a bit puzzled
since the backorder.

Wishful thinking leads me to thank someone who monitors this list and
works at AES.

:)

Very true. I think Yaesu would have done us all a favour (well, maybe
not the manufacturers of expensive portable whips, but the rest of
us) if instead of putting that tempting BNC socket on the front panel
they had built in a QRP version of an SGC autocoupler, and encouraged
us to use wire antennas instead.

Julian, G4ILO

--- In FT817@y..., "David Perry" <david.perry3@v...> wrote:

I have said it before and it's worth reiterating...the 817 is good,

but

let's not pretend it enables us to go handheld HF on a five inch

rubber

duck. It doesn't, what it does do is enable us to take radio where

we

couldn't before. But the laws of AC physics hven't changed to

accommodate

Yaesu.

Regards,

David

Mine is that at the frequency where the Q is highest (hence strongest
signals) the impedance is not 50 ohms. As I de-tune the antenna, the
impedance changes and appears to give a better match. That's why I
think the MP-1 ideally needs some kind of matching unit at the base,
as indeed do many base loaded mobile whips.

Julian, G4ILO

--- In FT817@y..., Nick Marsh <nmar@e...> wrote:

g4ilo@q... wrote:

However, I found that you can be moving the coil
away from the point at which signals are loudest, in order to get

the

lowest SWR.

Anyone have a theory why this happens?


Nick
WB4SQI

Peter,
I think you make sensible points but ones which miss the point. The MP1 and
the ATX are SUPPOSED to work nder suboptimal condx when taken out and about
with a PORTABLE rig...the 817. Your 1000MP would not mke a good /p rig, but
if you did set it up in the field, suit6abley powered as it is SUPPOSED to
be it WOULD work well.

I eel the chaps getting good reports from their APs and ATXs should tell us
their height AMSL. Might have something to do with t. I read a report last
night from a chap in (the?) high sierras. Sure he got a good report...he
was 5000ft amsl. He I am about 300 feet, so my aerials ren't good. But
they are SUPPOSED to be, so they fail.

ATX and MP1? use 'em as fishing poles. Throw up a dipole or a doublet
(join the ends for low band ), use a tuner and off you go.

I have bought an aluminium case for my rig now, houses the rig, the tuner, a
wire aerial and a small flask of malt whiskey! Grab the case, go for a walk
and have a lot of fun. The ATX stays at home where my wife uses it to annoy
the cat.

I have said it before and it's worth reiterating...the 817 is good, but
let's not pretend it enables us to go handheld HF on a five inch rubber
duck. It doesn't, what it does do is enable us to take radio where we
couldn't before. But the laws of AC physics hven't changed to accommodate
Yaesu.

Regards,

David

Steve Howell wrote:

My dad had a
business repairing undergound coal-mining equipment & I learned to
over-engineer mechanical solutions from him.

I agree Steve, I work in the coal industry and it was always stated that
if you wanted to see what an anvil looks like on the inside, send it
underground...

73,

Nick
WB4SQI

g4ilo@... wrote:

However, I found that you can be moving the coil
away from the point at which signals are loudest, in order to get the
lowest SWR.

Anyone have a theory why this happens?


Nick
WB4SQI

I was in Australia back about '94 and while in central Queensland saw a
number of vehicles that were commercial in nature. All were running some
variant of the Outbacker, mounted high on the front crash bars ('Roo
bars to you VK's). Seems that there was a definite preference.

I have never used one but would not let the opportunity go by if
presented with a real deal...

Nick
WB4SQI

g4ilo@... wrote:

Howdy All,

I bought an MP-1 at Dayton and I would like to store the
various pieces in it like I saw Vern do at the 817 gathering
but I am not sure how to take it apart. I didn't want to force
anything and break something. Hints and tips appreciated.

73 Jerry KK5YY

Steve Howell wrote:

My dad had a
business repairing undergound coal-mining equipment & I learned to
over-engineer mechanical solutions from him.

I agree Steve, I work in the coal industry and it was always stated that
if you wanted to see what an anvil looks like on the inside, send it
underground...

I wish I understood this reference. Let's take it to simplex and splain it
to me

( Unfortunately anvils underground have NOTHING to do with Re: [FT817] Re:
No need to cut green wire or ream wider hole for bnc connector )

Thanks

Pres Waterman W2PW
c/o Patchogue Motors, Inc.
Long Island Ford and Kia dealer

GO BILLS!

Never mind, I found it at:

Ken, would it be costly to include a laminated sheet describing the various
combinations? It should be obvious but newer hams may need a reminder

Thanks

Pres Waterman W2PW
c/o Patchogue Motors, Inc.
Long Island Ford and Kia dealer

GO BILLS!

I have put up a Counterpoise kit for the ATX-Walkabout antenna. All the

differnet colors of Powerpole connectors should be in stock in 7 - 10 days
and we are now taking orders for early June delivery.

This was a great idea by Dale E. Reed. I have changed it a little as I do

not like the use of Red & Black powerpoles for anything put + / - voltages
so I substituted Purple and Orange. We do not usually sell all the different
colors of housing, but this seemed like a good reason for us to start.

The page also recaps the powerpole colors, combinations of lengths and the

kit contents.

Uh, WHAT page?

( I am interested in ordering a kit )

Thanks

Pres Waterman W2PW
c/o Patchogue Motors, Inc.
Long Island Ford and Kia dealer

GO BILLS!

Hi Barry et al

Another point that should be made is that when tuning the MP-1 or the
AP-10A (or like antennas), the operator should make an adjustment and
then get back (away) from the antenna (and counterpoise) at least a
meter or so before checking the tuning. I have noticed that some
folks have tried "real-time" adjustment of the coil by watching the
tuning as they move the coil. Their body loads the system. When
they move away from the antenna to operate, the tuning is all wrong.

Thats absolutely essential! When I compared some of this small antennas for
a test review last weekend I found that especially the ATX Walkabout is
extrem sensitive against loading by man.

I would like to point out an other aspect about the MP-1. The functionality
of the PM-2 IMO is another than that of a standard base or center loaded
monopol.

Think of the MP-1 as a Top loaded Vertical. Why? The Tube you use to shorten
the coil is actualy a big Capacitor. It is derivated from a vertical with a
big capacitive hat. A capacitiv hat shortens the vertical significant. (like
in a series tuned circuit) If you make the hat big enough, the vertical part
will be shortened to zero. Thats what the PM-1 is.

I tried the MP-1 without the Whip. I had to give a little more inductivity
for compensation, but it works as fine as with the whip.

The theory of this antenna type you will find at
What DL7PE describes there are
monoband monopoles, but if you look close, they are very similar to the MP-1

If you use the PM-1 with a coax cable between it an the Transceiver, this
coax will act as an active counterpoise. You will have extreme
unreproducible results from band to band until you introduce a current choke
1/4 wavelength (x factor) in the coax line.

72/73 de Peter, DL2FI


German QRP Group DL-QRP-AG
QRPproject QRP and homebrew international

Julian,

Good points. However, I have found that the impedance is about 50
ohms when properly tuned (reading the MFJ antenna analyzer). The
design of the MP-1 has residual inductive reactance when the coil is
properly tuned. The radials can be left in a wad and moved about to
provide the needed capacitive reactance. Gets the SWR down, but
radiation efficiency is not so good this way. By getting the antenna
up off the ground, and likewise for a tuned counterpoise, the antenna
radiation efficiency improves.

Improved performance can often be realized by tilting the antenna
from the nadir. The AP-10A is normally used at 45 degs; however, the
radiation pattern is not uniform (which is often a great advantage).

Another point that should be made is that when tuning the MP-1 or the
AP-10A (or like antennas), the operator should make an adjustment and
then get back (away) from the antenna (and counterpoise) at least a
meter or so before checking the tuning. I have noticed that some
folks have tried "real-time" adjustment of the coil by watching the
tuning as they move the coil. Their body loads the system. When
they move away from the antenna to operate, the tuning is all wrong.

72 de Barry - W4WB

First, I hear bad things about impedences of elbows (yes, I know,
that can be true of any connector, but why add a *known* problem?).

Second, I don't like the mechanical stability with a (relatively)
long, heavy antenna such as the ATX. Especially as I will be
operating /PM backpacking w/20 to 30 kg, and sometimes I get a little
wobbly climbing over deadfall trees, boulders, etc. My dad had a
business repairing undergound coal-mining equipment & I learned to
over-engineer mechanical solutions from him.

Third (the most important reason, probably), I'm having a blast
building stuff for this rig! :-) Built a NorCal QRP BLT tuner (works
great), my own CW paddle, a CAT cable, an NVIS antenna & more.
Yippee!