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Thank you David, This makes it way more easy to figure out. Let me study this and the schematic for a bit
Glen ?
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-----Original Message-----
From: 'david@bestservices IMAP 2' david@... [felder-woodworking]
To: rcorselli@... [felder-woodworking]
Sent: Sat, Dec 3, 2016 10:06 pm
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
?
Glen,
The outrigger table options are indeed confusing. ? Let me try to clarify:
The 1300 and 1500 outrigger tables are basically the same except 1300 is 200mm less wide and only works on sliding tables 8-feet long or shorter. ? Sliding tables longer than 98-inches require the 1500 outrigger (the support arm under the table that supports it throughout the travel of the sliding table must extend further, and is thus longer, and so is the table above it to match). ? I don¡¯t believe Felder offers the 1300 outrigger table on the Kappa 400 (they do on the 700-series) if you get one of the shorter sliding tables.
There is a third outrigger table called the ¡°X-Roll¡± outrigger( option 161) - talk about creating confusion with that name !!! ? ?Anyway, the X-Roll outrigger has a roller-bearing actuated small table that supports the crosscut fence on the outrigger table, and makes it much easer to reposition the fence for angled cuts. ? The digital crosscut fence is about twice as heavy as the analog version, and if you load it up with a digital telescoping extension, it ends up about 50 pounds total. ? Trying to man-handle that fence into the precision miter guide indexing system is a real chore and you can easily damage that index system if you¡¯re not careful. ? So they came up with the X-Roll outrigger table to address this, which has it¡¯s own digital readout of the fence angle built in. ? You can also provision that X-Roll table with a radio transmitter system so it talks to the digital crosscut stops and they cooperate in computing the true position of the stop from the blade when the fence is not at 90-degrees. ? ?The X-Roll outrigger unit even has a hand crank for precise positioning of the angle. ? I don¡¯t have the X-Roll outrigger table (wish I did) but David Luckensmeyer does. ? Look at the photo in the following link and you¡¯ll see the X-Roll outrigger table element directly under the crosscut stop - it moves just like the sliding table, but of course is miniature in comparison - you¡¯ll also see the digital readout for the angle of the crosscut fence in the box between the crosscut stop and the sliding table:?
?
As for the crosscut fences, what I posted just prior to this for Michael applies to the Kappa 400, although there are additional option numbers relating to the radio compensation system on the X-Roll outrigger. ?Any of the crosscut fences can be put on any of the outrigger tables, although typically the X-Roll outrigger table
As for digital crosscut stops, I¡¯ll add the following. ? The standard digital crosscut stop has the flipper on the left - which means the closest it will go to the blade is just over 8 inches. ? If you want a digital crosscut stop that gets closer to the saw blade, you have to ADD (not substitute) an additional crosscut stop which is Felder part number 604-118. ? That stop has the flipper on the right and will position down to about 3-inches from the blade. ?The digital crosscut stop on the telescoping extension is dedicated to the extension and can not be positioned below 74-inches. ? On the non-digital crosscut fences, the analog crosscut stops can be used on the main part of the fence, or positioned on the telescoping extension - this is not the case with the digital stops. ? More info on the digital stops is here - including a document on how to calibrate them: ??
Sing out if you have more questions.
David Best
Hi David
So I haven't said anything lately, I have just been read your and everyone else s posts and I have gathered a wealth of information.
I have looked at some of the other stuff you have mentioned and I think I am set on the kappa 400 x. I have spent many hours looking at this saw and I have to say i understand it pretty well except for the options on the outrigger table. This messages helps but I still cant quite figure it out.? Looking at the pictures of your saw i think we have the same set up but im not exactly sure. Looking at the book there seems to be three variations of the outrigger. I wish you were my Felder Rep it would make it much easier for me to figure this all out.
Glen ??
-----Original Message----- From: 'david@bestservices IMAP 2' ?david@...?[felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> To: felder-woodworking < felder-woodworking@...> Sent: Sat, Dec 3, 2016 8:36 pm Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
?
Michael,
Let me clarify a few things. ? I assume you are considering mechanical scoring because of your off-the-grid power consumption limits. ? If you have the power for electronic scoring (it¡¯s a separate motor), and don¡¯t mind spending the additional for it, then it¡¯s clearly a better choice - even if you don¡¯t use scoring a lot, it will enhance the resale value appreciably. ??
There is absolutely no excuse that your Felder sales rep can¡¯t or won't research the answer to your question about the KF700 mechanical scoring. ? Call Fergus Cook at the Felder Sacramento office and ask him to clarify the mechanical scoring option operation. ?If you don¡¯t get satisfaction from Fergus, let me know and I¡¯ll text Hansj?rg Felder directly. ? You¡¯re about to drop coin equivalent to a new Benz - you should be able to get answers and your sales rep should be willing to do the homework to satisfy your questions before you buy. ? PERIOD.
On the subject of Precision Miter Guide, let me clarify - as it¡¯s value to you has everything to do with what kind of work you expect to do. ? If you plan on doing a lot of crosscut miters for things like mitered face frames, picture frames, mitered window/door frames, mitered raised panel doors, the precision miter guide option might be very valuable to you - especially if you¡¯re working from dimensioned drawings where you know the precise length of the part you¡¯re trying to miter. ? ?If you¡¯re planning to do a lot of smaller (under ~36¡±) picture frames or mitered raised panel doors or other similar joinery, you might actually be better off with the DGL or EGL. ? In my own workflow, I have observed that when I want to angle the crosscut fence, 95 percent of the time I either want 45-degrees or some other angle which the precision miter guide doesn¡¯t index, and I find the peg that extends below the crosscut fence a total pain in the ass to index to the slots on the precision miter guide, so I removed the peg. ? I can consistently position the crosscut fence at 45-degrees using the markings on the the top of the crossbar. ? My crosscut fence is twice the weight of what yours will be (because it¡¯s digital), and that has an influence on my frustration level with the indexing system as well. ? I also have the benefit of owning an EGL, so if I¡¯m going to be doing a lot of mitering work, cutting to known lengths, I¡¯ll drop on the EGL. ?
I too would be interested to hear from other K/KF700 owners with precision miter guide just how often they use/need it and if they find it cumbersome to use. ??
One other word of caution. ? If you plan to use the shaper much, you¡¯ll want a power feeder. ? Such power feeder would mount on the tilt-away bracket that attaches to the back edge of the cast iron top of the machine. ? You can order the bracket later when you get the feeder. ? However, as recently as 3 years ago, the tilt away bracket could not be used in conjunction with the 1500 outrigger because the telescoping support arm for the outrigger table would bind on the inverted power feeder. ? This may have changed - I don¡¯t know, but you should know, and if it¡¯s true, and you expect to use a power feeder, you would be better off with the 1300 outrigger.
David Best
??
So I'm working on finalizing my order for a KF700 S Pro with a 10 foot slider and the 1500mm outrigger.? I've gotten some excellent advice from David Best.? David noted that in his experience the precision miter attachment is fussy to use and not worth the hassle.? I'm curious whether anyone else has an opinion.? Does anyone who has one like theirs??? Why?? Why not?
David also noted that on his KF700 (back in the day before he upgraded) that the mechanical scoring system required the main blade to be fully elevated to use it.? Is this still the case?? Is it different on the electric scoring unit?? I've asked my the rep at Felder, but she doesn't seem to really know the equipment.
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
Newman Lake, WA
|
Thank You Lucky, This help from you is so much value to me as I try to finalize my machine.
at first I was not going to get the outriger cart but I think I am. I plan to do a lot of straight linnig with the shoe as i am milling my own trees and have bark edges, I Thought just walking arout the out rigger was ok but now i m thinking different.
now? I thought I saw an optio where where you could park the out rigger behind the saw where a power feed would be but I cant remember if that was a Felder or one of the 1000 other machines I looked at.
Glen
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-----Original Message-----
From: David Luckensmeyer dhluckens@... [felder-woodworking]
To: felder-woodworking
Sent: Sun, Dec 4, 2016 1:56 pm
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
?
Glen:
David references me with regard to the x-roll outrigger, so I thought I would add my vote for that option. It is exceptionally desirable and I love that feature.
I¡¯m perhaps a little stronger than average, and I can say that the Kappa 400 crosscut fence, with 3 x DRO stops is very heavy. It is too heavy to remove and install easily and regularly. I have the outrigger cart, and although it is possible to get the outrigger and the fence onto the cart, the result is so heavy and ungainly that I wouldn¡¯t do that (I did it once!). Instead, when I take the outrigger off, I grab a blanket, take the crosscut fence off (which is quite easy except for the weight), and lay it on the floor. Better would be to have a dedicated spot on the wall for it. I then remove the outrigger and store on the cart.
Incidentally, I love the DRO system on the crosscut fence so much that I use the Kappa 400 exclusively with the outrigger installed. The only reason I take off the fence is to eek out a little more length for straight-line rips on the slider.
Back to the x-roll outrigger option. In order to change the angle on the crosscut fence, I need to loosen the fence at the pivot point on the slider end of the fence. As you all likely know, this simply involves loosening a knob underneath the outrigger. I then loosen a locking knob on the little x-roll table built into the outrigger, and physically push the fence to the desired angle. To be clear, there is a second ¡°pivot¡± point in the little x-roll table on which the fence rides. Since the table moves (parallel to the main x-roll sliding table), I can move the fence through any angle up to 46 degrees, as the little x-roll table slides with?the fence. Once I¡¯m at the desired position, I simply lock the fence and go for it.
Three more points:?
The x-roll table on the outrigger has a fine adjustment knob which is keyed into the x-roll table such that I can dial in the precise angle I want. I could use the adjustment knob to move the fence from 90 degrees to the target angle, but I find the best procedure is to push the fence in gross movements so that I¡¯m close, and then grab the adjustment knob and go for those last few tenths of a degree.
How do I dial in for those last few tenths of a degree? Well, when you option the x-roll outrigger, you get a digital readout for the angle. I love that! My mitres now look pretty good since I can specify 45.3 degrees, to make sure the joint is closed on the outside.
I did not get the automatic length compensation feature for my crosscut fence on the outrigger. It is a nice feature and would be wonderful if I were cutting mitres all the time. In reality, I very rarely cut mitres, and when I do I just sneak up on the length of cut like everyone else. I don¡¯t regret not having the compensation feature.
Lucky
Glen,
The outrigger table options are indeed confusing. ? Let me try to clarify:
The 1300 and 1500 outrigger tables are basically the same except 1300 is 200mm less wide and only works on sliding tables 8-feet long or shorter. ? Sliding tables longer than 98-inches require the 1500 outrigger (the support arm under the table that supports it throughout the travel of the sliding table must extend further, and is thus longer, and so is the table above it to match). ? I don¡¯t believe Felder offers the 1300 outrigger table on the Kappa 400 (they do on the 700-series) if you get one of the shorter sliding tables.
There is a third outrigger table called the ¡°X-Roll¡± outrigger( option 161) - talk about creating confusion with that name !!! ? ?Anyway, the X-Roll outrigger has a roller-bearing actuated small table that supports the crosscut fence on the outrigger table, and makes it much easer to reposition the fence for angled cuts. ? The digital crosscut fence is about twice as heavy as the analog version, and if you load it up with a digital telescoping extension, it ends up about 50 pounds total. ? Trying to man-handle that fence into the precision miter guide indexing system is a real chore and you can easily damage that index system if you¡¯re not careful. ? So they came up with the X-Roll outrigger table to address this, which has it¡¯s own digital readout of the fence angle built in. ? You can also provision that X-Roll table with a radio transmitter system so it talks to the digital crosscut stops and they cooperate in computing the true position of the stop from the blade when the fence is not at 90-degrees. ? ?The X-Roll outrigger unit even has a hand crank for precise positioning of the angle. ? I don¡¯t have the X-Roll outrigger table (wish I did) but David Luckensmeyer does. ? Look at the photo in the following link and you¡¯ll see the X-Roll outrigger table element directly under the crosscut stop - it moves just like the sliding table, but of course is miniature in comparison - you¡¯ll also see the digital readout for the angle of the crosscut fence in the box between the crosscut stop and the sliding table:?
?
As for the crosscut fences, what I posted just prior to this for Michael applies to the Kappa 400, although there are additional option numbers relating to the radio compensation system on the X-Roll outrigger. ?Any of the crosscut fences can be put on any of the outrigger tables, although typically the X-Roll outrigger table
As for digital crosscut stops, I¡¯ll add the following. ? The standard digital crosscut stop has the flipper on the left - which means the closest it will go to the blade is just over 8 inches. ? If you want a digital crosscut stop that gets closer to the saw blade, you have to ADD (not substitute) an additional crosscut stop which is Felder part number 604-118. ? That stop has the flipper on the right and will position down to about 3-inches from the blade. ?The digital crosscut stop on the telescoping extension is dedicated to the extension and can not be positioned below 74-inches. ? On the non-digital crosscut fences, the analog crosscut stops can be used on the main part of the fence, or positioned on the telescoping extension - this is not the case with the digital stops. ? More info on the digital stops is here - including a document on how to calibrate them: ??
Sing out if you have more questions.
David Best
Hi David
So I haven't said anything lately, I have just been read your and everyone else s posts and I have gathered a wealth of information.
I have looked at some of the other stuff you have mentioned and I think I am set on the kappa 400 x. I have spent many hours looking at this saw and I have to say i understand it pretty well except for the options on the outrigger table. This messages helps but I still cant quite figure it out.? Looking at the pictures of your saw i think we have the same set up but im not exactly sure. Looking at the book there seems to be three variations of the outrigger. I wish you were my Felder Rep it would make it much easier for me to figure this all out.
Glen ??
-----Original Message----- From: 'david@bestservices IMAP 2' ?david@...?[felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> To: felder-woodworking < felder-woodworking@...> Sent: Sat, Dec 3, 2016 8:36 pm Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
?
Michael,
Let me clarify a few things. ? I assume you are considering mechanical scoring because of your off-the-grid power consumption limits. ? If you have the power for electronic scoring (it¡¯s a separate motor), and don¡¯t mind spending the additional for it, then it¡¯s clearly a better choice - even if you don¡¯t use scoring a lot, it will enhance the resale value appreciably. ??
There is absolutely no excuse that your Felder sales rep can¡¯t or won't research the answer to your question about the KF700 mechanical scoring. ? Call Fergus Cook at the Felder Sacramento office and ask him to clarify the mechanical scoring option operation. ?If you don¡¯t get satisfaction from Fergus, let me know and I¡¯ll text Hansj?rg Felder directly. ? You¡¯re about to drop coin equivalent to a new Benz - you should be able to get answers and your sales rep should be willing to do the homework to satisfy your questions before you buy. ? PERIOD.
On the subject of Precision Miter Guide, let me clarify - as it¡¯s value to you has everything to do with what kind of work you expect to do. ? If you plan on doing a lot of crosscut miters for things like mitered face frames, picture frames, mitered window/door frames, mitered raised panel doors, the precision miter guide option might be very valuable to you - especially if you¡¯re working from dimensioned drawings where you know the precise length of the part you¡¯re trying to miter. ? ?If you¡¯re planning to do a lot of smaller (under ~36¡±) picture frames or mitered raised panel doors or other similar joinery, you might actually be better off with the DGL or EGL. ? In my own workflow, I have observed that when I want to angle the crosscut fence, 95 percent of the time I either want 45-degrees or some other angle which the precision miter guide doesn¡¯t index, and I find the peg that extends below the crosscut fence a total pain in the ass to index to the slots on the precision miter guide, so I removed the peg. ? I can consistently position the crosscut fence at 45-degrees using the markings on the the top of the crossbar. ? My crosscut fence is twice the weight of what yours will be (because it¡¯s digital), and that has an influence on my frustration level with the indexing system as well. ? I also have the benefit of owning an EGL, so if I¡¯m going to be doing a lot of mitering work, cutting to known lengths, I¡¯ll drop on the EGL. ?
I too would be interested to hear from other K/KF700 owners with precision miter guide just how often they use/need it and if they find it cumbersome to use. ??
One other word of caution. ? If you plan to use the shaper much, you¡¯ll want a power feeder. ? Such power feeder would mount on the tilt-away bracket that attaches to the back edge of the cast iron top of the machine. ? You can order the bracket later when you get the feeder. ? However, as recently as 3 years ago, the tilt away bracket could not be used in conjunction with the 1500 outrigger because the telescoping support arm for the outrigger table would bind on the inverted power feeder. ? This may have changed - I don¡¯t know, but you should know, and if it¡¯s true, and you expect to use a power feeder, you would be better off with the 1300 outrigger.
David Best
??
So I'm working on finalizing my order for a KF700 S Pro with a 10 foot slider and the 1500mm outrigger.? I've gotten some excellent advice from David Best.? David noted that in his experience the precision miter attachment is fussy to use and not worth the hassle.? I'm curious whether anyone else has an opinion.? Does anyone who has one like theirs??? Why?? Why not?
David also noted that on his KF700 (back in the day before he upgraded) that the mechanical scoring system required the main blade to be fully elevated to use it.? Is this still the case?? Is it different on the electric scoring unit?? I've asked my the rep at Felder, but she doesn't seem to really know the equipment.
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
Newman Lake, WA
|
|
|
Thank You!? I Know I saw it somewhere, I like the idea, Possible out feed extension on the rip table and out of my way when I don't need it>
Go figure its prob. not an option On 400 x Motion
One thing i don't like about Felder is I cant see list prices on any options, it make deciding very hard with many calls to sales.
I wish they would just give me a price list so i could save some time.
Glen
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-----Original Message-----
From: garrisonstuber@... [felder-woodworking]
To: felder-woodworking
Sent: Sun, Dec 4, 2016 7:20 pm
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
|
Glen you have to create an account (its no cost) and logon to the eshop and you can see the prices of the accessories.
Acie J
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On Dec 4, 2016, at 9:55 PM, GLEN chris3645@... [felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
?
Thank You!? I Know I saw it somewhere, I like the idea, Possible out feed extension on the rip table and out of my way when I don't need it>
Go figure its prob. not an option On 400 x Motion
One thing i don't like about Felder is I cant see list prices on any options, it make deciding very hard with many calls to sales.
I wish they would just give me a price list so i could save some time.
Glen
|
Again I thank you David Best & "Lucky" and everyone one else that has given me input to help me figure out the Kappa 400 X motion.
I am going to make my fourth trip to Felder Sacamento on Tuesday to work thru the options again with them. Thanks to you guys my Quote or offer as they call it is petrified with notes questions and HUH. Alot of this i can fix from the knowledge I got here. and i hope to come back with a nice clean almost correct quote.then I will do this again one more time and if any one would be willing to look at it with my final I DON'T KNOWS Before i place my order I would greatly appreciate it. I will also include the price that i got and Authorization page just in case someone wants to fill their Credit Card info for me for my Christmas gift.
While im up there I am going to start On The Profil 45 X motion and go thru this while process again. Hopefully with less trips up
So with out spreading across to many machines, David? said that putting on the DRO on the cross cut fence adds a lot of weight , At 50 Lbs I think it ok as i will use one of the FAT tables to move to a safe parking place on a wall. But thinking forward on the next machine the Jointer Planer I test ran the AD741 i think it was and I am thinking about going up a size. I had a hard time flipping the bed up with my bad back. some asked why I am not getting separated machines and the reason is not so much about space but money.
The Felder is going to be used in the cabinet finish side of the shop,on the otherside I need a second one To run off the stock from the mill.
I am not going to run mill stock thru my FElder Unless its going in to a specific project So I am getting way off base here., any knowledge on Felder and if there is someting on the machine that i can add to help lifting the bed.
Glen
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-----Original Message-----
From: David Luckensmeyer dhluckens@... [felder-woodworking]
To: felder-woodworking <felder-woodworking@...>
Sent: Sun, Dec 4, 2016 1:56 pm
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
?
Glen:
David references me with regard to the x-roll outrigger, so I thought I would add my vote for that option. It is exceptionally desirable and I love that feature.
I¡¯m perhaps a little stronger than average, and I can say that the Kappa 400 crosscut fence, with 3 x DRO stops is very heavy. It is too heavy to remove and install easily and regularly. I have the outrigger cart, and although it is possible to get the outrigger and the fence onto the cart, the result is so heavy and ungainly that I wouldn¡¯t do that (I did it once!). Instead, when I take the outrigger off, I grab a blanket, take the crosscut fence off (which is quite easy except for the weight), and lay it on the floor. Better would be to have a dedicated spot on the wall for it. I then remove the outrigger and store on the cart.
Incidentally, I love the DRO system on the crosscut fence so much that I use the Kappa 400 exclusively with the outrigger installed. The only reason I take off the fence is to eek out a little more length for straight-line rips on the slider.
Back to the x-roll outrigger option. In order to change the angle on the crosscut fence, I need to loosen the fence at the pivot point on the slider end of the fence. As you all likely know, this simply involves loosening a knob underneath the outrigger. I then loosen a locking knob on the little x-roll table built into the outrigger, and physically push the fence to the desired angle. To be clear, there is a second ¡°pivot¡± point in the little x-roll table on which the fence rides. Since the table moves (parallel to the main x-roll sliding table), I can move the fence through any angle up to 46 degrees, as the little x-roll table slides with?the fence. Once I¡¯m at the desired position, I simply lock the fence and go for it.
Three more points:?
The x-roll table on the outrigger has a fine adjustment knob which is keyed into the x-roll table such that I can dial in the precise angle I want. I could use the adjustment knob to move the fence from 90 degrees to the target angle, but I find the best procedure is to push the fence in gross movements so that I¡¯m close, and then grab the adjustment knob and go for those last few tenths of a degree.
How do I dial in for those last few tenths of a degree? Well, when you option the x-roll outrigger, you get a digital readout for the angle. I love that! My mitres now look pretty good since I can specify 45.3 degrees, to make sure the joint is closed on the outside.
I did not get the automatic length compensation feature for my crosscut fence on the outrigger. It is a nice feature and would be wonderful if I were cutting mitres all the time. In reality, I very rarely cut mitres, and when I do I just sneak up on the length of cut like everyone else. I don¡¯t regret not having the compensation feature.
Lucky
Glen,
The outrigger table options are indeed confusing. ? Let me try to clarify:
The 1300 and 1500 outrigger tables are basically the same except 1300 is 200mm less wide and only works on sliding tables 8-feet long or shorter. ? Sliding tables longer than 98-inches require the 1500 outrigger (the support arm under the table that supports it throughout the travel of the sliding table must extend further, and is thus longer, and so is the table above it to match). ? I don¡¯t believe Felder offers the 1300 outrigger table on the Kappa 400 (they do on the 700-series) if you get one of the shorter sliding tables.
There is a third outrigger table called the ¡°X-Roll¡± outrigger( option 161) - talk about creating confusion with that name !!! ? ?Anyway, the X-Roll outrigger has a roller-bearing actuated small table that supports the crosscut fence on the outrigger table, and makes it much easer to reposition the fence for angled cuts. ? The digital crosscut fence is about twice as heavy as the analog version, and if you load it up with a digital telescoping extension, it ends up about 50 pounds total. ? Trying to man-handle that fence into the precision miter guide indexing system is a real chore and you can easily damage that index system if you¡¯re not careful. ? So they came up with the X-Roll outrigger table to address this, which has it¡¯s own digital readout of the fence angle built in. ? You can also provision that X-Roll table with a radio transmitter system so it talks to the digital crosscut stops and they cooperate in computing the true position of the stop from the blade when the fence is not at 90-degrees. ? ?The X-Roll outrigger unit even has a hand crank for precise positioning of the angle. ? I don¡¯t have the X-Roll outrigger table (wish I did) but David Luckensmeyer does. ? Look at the photo in the following link and you¡¯ll see the X-Roll outrigger table element directly under the crosscut stop - it moves just like the sliding table, but of course is miniature in comparison - you¡¯ll also see the digital readout for the angle of the crosscut fence in the box between the crosscut stop and the sliding table:?
?
As for the crosscut fences, what I posted just prior to this for Michael applies to the Kappa 400, although there are additional option numbers relating to the radio compensation system on the X-Roll outrigger. ?Any of the crosscut fences can be put on any of the outrigger tables, although typically the X-Roll outrigger table
As for digital crosscut stops, I¡¯ll add the following. ? The standard digital crosscut stop has the flipper on the left - which means the closest it will go to the blade is just over 8 inches. ? If you want a digital crosscut stop that gets closer to the saw blade, you have to ADD (not substitute) an additional crosscut stop which is Felder part number 604-118. ? That stop has the flipper on the right and will position down to about 3-inches from the blade. ?The digital crosscut stop on the telescoping extension is dedicated to the extension and can not be positioned below 74-inches. ? On the non-digital crosscut fences, the analog crosscut stops can be used on the main part of the fence, or positioned on the telescoping extension - this is not the case with the digital stops. ? More info on the digital stops is here - including a document on how to calibrate them: ??
Sing out if you have more questions.
David Best
Hi David
So I haven't said anything lately, I have just been read your and everyone else s posts and I have gathered a wealth of information.
I have looked at some of the other stuff you have mentioned and I think I am set on the kappa 400 x. I have spent many hours looking at this saw and I have to say i understand it pretty well except for the options on the outrigger table. This messages helps but I still cant quite figure it out.? Looking at the pictures of your saw i think we have the same set up but im not exactly sure. Looking at the book there seems to be three variations of the outrigger. I wish you were my Felder Rep it would make it much easier for me to figure this all out.
Glen ??
-----Original Message----- From: 'david@bestservices IMAP 2' ?david@...?[felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> To: felder-woodworking < felder-woodworking@...> Sent: Sat, Dec 3, 2016 8:36 pm Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
?
Michael,
Let me clarify a few things. ? I assume you are considering mechanical scoring because of your off-the-grid power consumption limits. ? If you have the power for electronic scoring (it¡¯s a separate motor), and don¡¯t mind spending the additional for it, then it¡¯s clearly a better choice - even if you don¡¯t use scoring a lot, it will enhance the resale value appreciably. ??
There is absolutely no excuse that your Felder sales rep can¡¯t or won't research the answer to your question about the KF700 mechanical scoring. ? Call Fergus Cook at the Felder Sacramento office and ask him to clarify the mechanical scoring option operation. ?If you don¡¯t get satisfaction from Fergus, let me know and I¡¯ll text Hansj?rg Felder directly. ? You¡¯re about to drop coin equivalent to a new Benz - you should be able to get answers and your sales rep should be willing to do the homework to satisfy your questions before you buy. ? PERIOD.
On the subject of Precision Miter Guide, let me clarify - as it¡¯s value to you has everything to do with what kind of work you expect to do. ? If you plan on doing a lot of crosscut miters for things like mitered face frames, picture frames, mitered window/door frames, mitered raised panel doors, the precision miter guide option might be very valuable to you - especially if you¡¯re working from dimensioned drawings where you know the precise length of the part you¡¯re trying to miter. ? ?If you¡¯re planning to do a lot of smaller (under ~36¡±) picture frames or mitered raised panel doors or other similar joinery, you might actually be better off with the DGL or EGL. ? In my own workflow, I have observed that when I want to angle the crosscut fence, 95 percent of the time I either want 45-degrees or some other angle which the precision miter guide doesn¡¯t index, and I find the peg that extends below the crosscut fence a total pain in the ass to index to the slots on the precision miter guide, so I removed the peg. ? I can consistently position the crosscut fence at 45-degrees using the markings on the the top of the crossbar. ? My crosscut fence is twice the weight of what yours will be (because it¡¯s digital), and that has an influence on my frustration level with the indexing system as well. ? I also have the benefit of owning an EGL, so if I¡¯m going to be doing a lot of mitering work, cutting to known lengths, I¡¯ll drop on the EGL. ?
I too would be interested to hear from other K/KF700 owners with precision miter guide just how often they use/need it and if they find it cumbersome to use. ??
One other word of caution. ? If you plan to use the shaper much, you¡¯ll want a power feeder. ? Such power feeder would mount on the tilt-away bracket that attaches to the back edge of the cast iron top of the machine. ? You can order the bracket later when you get the feeder. ? However, as recently as 3 years ago, the tilt away bracket could not be used in conjunction with the 1500 outrigger because the telescoping support arm for the outrigger table would bind on the inverted power feeder. ? This may have changed - I don¡¯t know, but you should know, and if it¡¯s true, and you expect to use a power feeder, you would be better off with the 1300 outrigger.
David Best
??
So I'm working on finalizing my order for a KF700 S Pro with a 10 foot slider and the 1500mm outrigger.? I've gotten some excellent advice from David Best.? David noted that in his experience the precision miter attachment is fussy to use and not worth the hassle.? I'm curious whether anyone else has an opinion.? Does anyone who has one like theirs??? Why?? Why not?
David also noted that on his KF700 (back in the day before he upgraded) that the mechanical scoring system required the main blade to be fully elevated to use it.? Is this still the case?? Is it different on the electric scoring unit?? I've asked my the rep at Felder, but she doesn't seem to really know the equipment.
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
Newman Lake, WA
|
Thank you Acie,
This is very interesting I have an account on eshop and other that buying small stuff or getting aprice on a machine, and many you cant by my knowledge I have not see a place to get pricing on options on the Kappa
However with excessive brain damage from from running a business that's not my little wood-shop im going to go dig in harder
Felder has multiple web sites while I can get some info off one I offen have to go to another one and I can get other stuff
Major down fall for peanut sized brains
Glen
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-----Original Message-----
From: Acie Jefferson pastoraj@... [felder-woodworking]
To: felder-woodworking
Sent: Sun, Dec 4, 2016 10:06 pm
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
?
Glen you have to create an account (its no cost) and logon to the eshop and you can see the prices of the accessories.
Acie J
?
Thank You!? I Know I saw it somewhere, I like the idea, Possible out feed extension on the rip table and out of my way when I don't need it>
Go figure its prob. not an option On 400 x Motion
One thing i don't like about Felder is I cant see list prices on any options, it make deciding very hard with many calls to sales.
I wish they would just give me a price list so i could save some time.
Glen
|
I tried it again and I can get option prices on Hammer and FB510 and FB610 on of is on my list however the optioins are the base machine not the options of table extensions or the like.
Glen
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Acie Jefferson pastoraj@... [felder-woodworking]
To: felder-woodworking
Sent: Sun, Dec 4, 2016 10:06 pm
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
?
Glen you have to create an account (its no cost) and logon to the eshop and you can see the prices of the accessories.
Acie J
?
Thank You!? I Know I saw it somewhere, I like the idea, Possible out feed extension on the rip table and out of my way when I don't need it>
Go figure its prob. not an option On 400 x Motion
One thing i don't like about Felder is I cant see list prices on any options, it make deciding very hard with many calls to sales.
I wish they would just give me a price list so i could save some time.
Glen
|
Hi David,
At risk of going further off topic, I'll only respond to your Brexit question.? Rather like your recent election, I think the establishment were completely caught off-guard and are struggling to know how to proceed.? There's been little obvious effect on day-to-day life yet, although some prices have started going up as sterling took an instant hit on the FX markets.? Double hit for motoring with the $ price of oil also going up again.? Felder prices will no doubt be going up 10% or so.? The government hasn't yet taken the formal step of initiating exit ("Article 50" of the EU treaty.)? Whilst people think of economic effects, I believe it's going to be a lengthy process to resolve what we do with all the institutions that have become integrated across Europe.? As an example, in my own former area of aviation safety?regulation, I just don't see the UK re-establishing a standalone national system.? Apart from anything else, the industry would be up in arms at any suggestion of undoing the level of harmonisation that has been achieved.? Hence, I see us staying in the European system, with questions of what influence (and costs)?we will have from outside the EU club.? There must be umpteen other areas like this.
Common view amongst political pundits is that other European countries don't want to be seen as giving the UK an easy time as that might encourage similar movements in their own countries.
Julie
From: "'david@bestservices IMAP 2' david@... [felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@...>
To: felder-woodworking@...
Sent: Sunday, 4 December 2016, 10:03
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
? Hi Julie, nice to read your note, and thanks for the clarification. ? So I went to my stash of catalogs from Felder (the most recent one I have is 2012) - beginning to wonder if I¡¯d lost my mind. ? In the section on the KF700, in the configurator, there is option 212 listed which reads ¡°Tilting bracket for power feeder (with standard models this is not possible with a 1300mm outrigger table).¡± ? ?So I did have it wrong, the exception (back then?) applied to the 1300mm outrigger table not the 1500, and I apologize for stirring up this controversy. ? But I am comforted that I haven¡¯t lost my mind completely, there was some kind of mechanical interference, I just remembered wrong. ? ?I'm not loosing my mind after all. ? You¡¯d tell me if I were - right? ? Now that we¡¯re in the ¡°post truth¡± era here in the USA, everything is suspect. ? What a bewildering time - I was expecting Alzheimer's to set in and instead I get ¡°post truth era." ? How¡¯s Brexit working out for ya on your side of the pond? ?:-)
As for the Benz reference, you¡¯re completely right, and I¡¯ll quote Colonel Pickering speaking to Henry Higgins: ?¡°Come sir, perhaps you¡¯ve picked a bad example.¡± ? I¡¯m no longer a Benz fan either - most expensive maintenance headache ever. ? Perhaps Bentley would have been a fairer comparison. ?:-)
David Best
PS: ? When I had a KF700 with tilt-away bracket, I found it really helped the rotational effort to put the feeder in a position where the center of gravity was most neutral. ? This is the position I found worked best - you¡¯ve probably already discovered this, but for those who haven¡¯t:?
I see now that Felder offers a gas strut assisted feeder bracket. ? They ripped that design off a FOG member. ? Shame !
On Dec 3, 2016, at 11:58 PM, JULIE DENNING julie.denning1@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
David,
A couple of points.
I have a 2008 KF700SP with 1500 outrigger, F38 power feeder and tilt away bracket.? Due to space constraints I only mount the outrigger when I need it, but I haven't been aware of any conflict with the power feeder.? I've checked the 2008 catalogue and haven't spotted any warning to that effect.? I do, however, struggle with the power feeder tilt away for other reasons.? For me, it's heavy.? (I must investigate adding an assistance strut.)? Also, again due to other space constraints around the machine, I have to find a sweet spot for positioning the power feeder before lowering it.
You say " You¡¯re about to drop coin equivalent to a new Benz".? As the owner of products from each of these manufacturers, I must protest this comparison on behalf of Felder!? I don't mind paying a quality price for a quality product, but object when I think I'm only getting the wrong half of that deal.? Since buying my KF700 I've made two other, for me, pricey purchases from Felder, but I doubt I'll ever buy another Mercedes.
Julie
From:?"'david@bestservices IMAP 2'?david@...?[felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@...>
To:?felder-woodworking@...?
Sent:?Sunday, 4 December 2016, 4:36
Subject:?Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
?Michael,
Let me clarify a few things. ? I assume you are considering mechanical scoring because of your off-the-grid power consumption limits. ? If you have the power for electronic scoring (it¡¯s a separate motor), and don¡¯t mind spending the additional for it, then it¡¯s clearly a better choice - even if you don¡¯t use scoring a lot, it will enhance the resale value appreciably. ??
There is absolutely no excuse that your Felder sales rep can¡¯t or won't research the answer to your question about the KF700 mechanical scoring. ? Call Fergus Cook at the Felder Sacramento office and ask him to clarify the mechanical scoring option operation. ?If you don¡¯t get satisfaction from Fergus, let me know and I¡¯ll text Hansj?rg Felder directly. ? You¡¯re about to drop coin equivalent to a new Benz - you should be able to get answers and your sales rep should be willing to do the homework to satisfy your questions before you buy. ? PERIOD.
On the subject of Precision Miter Guide, let me clarify - as it¡¯s value to you has everything to do with what kind of work you expect to do. ? If you plan on doing a lot of crosscut miters for things like mitered face frames, picture frames, mitered window/door frames, mitered raised panel doors, the precision miter guide option might be very valuable to you - especially if you¡¯re working from dimensioned drawings where you know the precise length of the part you¡¯re trying to miter. ? ?If you¡¯re planning to do a lot of smaller (under ~36¡±) picture frames or mitered raised panel doors or other similar joinery, you might actually be better off with the DGL or EGL. ? In my own workflow, I have observed that when I want to angle the crosscut fence, 95 percent of the time I either want 45-degrees or some other angle which the precision miter guide doesn¡¯t index, and I find the peg that extends below the crosscut fence a total pain in the ass to index to the slots on the precision miter guide, so I removed the peg. ? I can consistently position the crosscut fence at 45-degrees using the markings on the the top of the crossbar. ? My crosscut fence is twice the weight of what yours will be (because it¡¯s digital), and that has an influence on my frustration level with the indexing system as well. ? I also have the benefit of owning an EGL, so if I¡¯m going to be doing a lot of mitering work, cutting to known lengths, I¡¯ll drop on the EGL. ?
I too would be interested to hear from other K/KF700 owners with precision miter guide just how often they use/need it and if they find it cumbersome to use. ??
One other word of caution. ? If you plan to use the shaper much, you¡¯ll want a power feeder. ? Such power feeder would mount on the tilt-away bracket that attaches to the back edge of the cast iron top of the machine. ? You can order the bracket later when you get the feeder. ? However, as recently as 3 years ago, the tilt away bracket could not be used in conjunction with the 1500 outrigger because the telescoping support arm for the outrigger table would bind on the inverted power feeder. ? This may have changed - I don¡¯t know, but you should know, and if it¡¯s true, and you expect to use a power feeder, you would be better off with the 1300 outrigger.
David Best??
On Dec 3, 2016, at 6:18 PM,?garrisonstuber@...?[felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
So I'm working on finalizing my order for a KF700 S Pro with a 10 foot slider and the 1500mm outrigger.? I've gotten some excellent advice from David Best.? David noted that in his experience the precision miter attachment is fussy to use and not worth the hassle.? I'm curious whether anyone else has an opinion.? Does anyone who has one like theirs??? Why?? Why not?
David also noted that on his KF700 (back in the day before he upgraded) that the mechanical scoring system required the main blade to be fully elevated to use it.? Is this still the case?? Is it different on the electric scoring unit?? I've asked my the rep at Felder, but she doesn't seem to really know the equipment.
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
Newman Lake, WA
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Hi Glen:
Don¡¯t beat around the bush. Call the highest sales rep you can get the phone number for in the USA, tell them you¡¯re about to drop several hundred grand on the company, and ask them to email you the full price list for all options on the machines you¡¯re considering.
My Australian Rep sends me everything ¡ª with the caveat not to spread the list around ¡ª it is so much easier when you know what everything costs.
Lucky
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I tried it again and I can get option prices on Hammer and FB510 and FB610 on of is on my list however the optioins are the base machine not the options of table extensions or the like.
Glen?
-----Original Message----- From: Acie Jefferson ?pastoraj@...?[felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> To: felder-woodworking < felder-woodworking@...> Sent: Sun, Dec 4, 2016 10:06 pm Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit ?Glen you have to create an account (its no cost) and logon to the eshop and you can see the prices of the accessories.
Acie J
?Thank You!? I Know I saw it somewhere, I like the idea, Possible out feed extension on the rip table and out of my way when I don't need it>
Go figure its prob. not an option On 400 x Motion?
One thing i don't like about Felder is I cant see list prices on any options, it make deciding very hard with many calls to sales.
I wish they would just give me a price list so i could save some time.
Glen?
|
Much easier to really the put screws to you when the prices aren't listed and can be changed by salesman dependent on the customer and the perceived bankroll. I had this happen this past summer on a Dual51 quote. The quoted price over the phone went up several thousand dollars by the time they sent out the written quote. Now they won't have the chance to quote on anymore machines. I guess in all fairness though you can't get prices on Martin or Altendorf products off the web for any level of machine.
?
Hi Glen:
Don¡¯t beat around the bush. Call the highest sales rep you can get the phone number for in the USA, tell them you¡¯re about to drop several hundred grand on the company, and ask them to email you the full price list for all options on the machines you¡¯re considering.
My Australian Rep sends me everything ¡ª with the caveat not to spread the list around ¡ª it is so much easier when you know what everything costs.
Lucky
I tried it again and I can get option prices on Hammer and FB510 and FB610 on of is on my list however the optioins are the base machine not the options of table extensions or the like.
Glen?
-----Original Message----- From: Acie Jefferson ?pastoraj@...?[felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> To: felder-woodworking < felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sun, Dec 4, 2016 10:06 pm Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit ?Glen you have to create an account (its no cost) and logon to the eshop and you can see the prices of the accessories.
Acie J
?Thank You!? I Know I saw it somewhere, I like the idea, Possible out feed extension on the rip table and out of my way when I don't need it>
Go figure its prob. not an option On 400 x Motion?
One thing i don't like about Felder is I cant see list prices on any options, it make deciding very hard with many calls to sales.
I wish they would just give me a price list so i could save some time.
Glen?
|
John,
Martin has price lists. ?
I have seen the list for the T75.
I don't know at what stage of the purchase process the lists are available though.
Joe in New Orleans?
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On Dec 5, 2016, at 6:24 AM, John Kee jmkserv@... [felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
?
Much easier to really the put screws to you when the prices aren't listed and can be changed by salesman dependent on the customer and the perceived bankroll. I had this happen this past summer on a Dual51 quote. The quoted price over the phone went up several thousand dollars by the time they sent out the written quote. Now they won't have the chance to quote on anymore machines. I guess in all fairness though you can't get prices on Martin or Altendorf products off the web for any level of machine.
|
Mind me asking, what was the lsit price of the T75?
On Monday, December 5, 2016, Joe dohertyj@... [felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
?
John,
Martin has price lists. ?
I have seen the list for the T75.
I don't know at what stage of the purchase process the lists are available though.
Joe in New Orleans?
?
Much easier to really the put screws to you when the prices aren't listed and can be changed by salesman dependent on the customer and the perceived bankroll. I had this happen this past summer on a Dual51 quote. The quoted price over the phone went up several thousand dollars by the time they sent out the written quote. Now they won't have the chance to quote on anymore machines. I guess in all fairness though you can't get prices on Martin or Altendorf products off the web for any level of machine.
|
Patrick, ?
The range, depending on options, is wide starting around $40k. ?
Asking Carl Stout at Martin is the way to go.
Joe in New Orleans
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Show quoted text
Mind me asking, what was the lsit price of the T75?
On Monday, December 5, 2016, Joe ?dohertyj@...?[felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> wrote: ?
John,
Martin has price lists. ?
I have seen the list for the T75.
I don't know at what stage of the purchase process the lists are available though.
Joe in New Orleans? ?
Much easier to really the put screws to you when the prices aren't listed and can be changed by salesman dependent on the customer and the perceived bankroll. I had this happen this past summer on a Dual51 quote. The quoted price over the phone went up several thousand dollars by the time they sent out the written quote. Now they won't have the chance to quote on anymore machines. I guess in all fairness though you can't get prices on Martin or Altendorf products off the web for any level of machine.
|
Cars, I've had them all. Mercedes, Audi, Lexus and BMW. My advice is to pick your service gargae first. I found Mercedes service to be inadequate. Lexus is serviced in a Toyota garage, and with all due respect to Toyota that doesn;y cut the mustard. Audi was the worst of the lot. The car, for my wife, was a brand new TT roadster. It hadn;t had a predelivery inspection. Light switch was broken, mats hadn;t been supplied , lock nut for wheels was missing along with various pieces of trim and to crown ut all they fitted wrong number plates. This all set the scene for their service. Useless. Quoth the raven etc.
My local BMW garage is excellent. They are the reason both me, my wife and my youngest son all drive BMW.s. They always helpful, extremely knowledgeable and even give bit of discount off the bill. We've been using the for over 20 years.?
It matters not a fig how good the cars are if the service doesn't back it up.
Paul Mc Cann
|
Paul, opposite for us.? BMW is worst service, according to a close friend.? Jaguar is best, with MB and Audi in the middle.? My wife likes the Lexus people but she is happy to get coffee and a loaner. ? All dealerships are owned by same guy so you need to
switch cities to switch service.? Dave
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From: felder-woodworking@... on behalf of Paul Mc Cann tpmccann@... [felder-woodworking]
Sent: Monday, December 5, 2016 8:28 AM
To: felder-woodworking@...
Subject: [felder-woodworking] Re: Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
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Cars, I've had them all. Mercedes, Audi, Lexus and BMW. My advice is to pick your service gargae first. I found Mercedes service to be inadequate. Lexus is serviced in a Toyota garage, and with all due respect to Toyota that doesn;y cut the mustard.
Audi was the worst of the lot. The car, for my wife, was a brand new TT roadster. It hadn;t had a predelivery inspection. Light switch was broken, mats hadn;t been supplied , lock nut for wheels was missing along with various pieces of trim and to crown ut
all they fitted wrong number plates. This all set the scene for their service. Useless. Quoth the raven etc.
My local BMW garage is excellent. They are the reason both me, my wife and my youngest son all drive BMW.s. They always helpful, extremely knowledgeable and even give bit of discount off the bill. We've been using the for over 20 years.?
It matters not a fig how good the cars are if the service doesn't back it up.
Paul Mc Cann
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You won¡¯t be able to mount a power feeder with that sort of thing¡..
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Thank You!? I Know I saw it somewhere, I like the idea, Possible out feed extension on the rip table and out of my way when I don't need it>
Go figure its prob. not an option On 400 x Motion?
One thing i don't like about Felder is I cant see list prices on any options, it make deciding very hard with many calls to sales.
I wish they would just give me a price list so i could save some time.
Glen?
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I already need to hold the breath to lift the heavy crosscut fence with only one DRO, that is why I remove the telescoping portion since I have not needed it yet, now, I can lift and move it easily, still heavy though.
I do not think I can lift it with telescoping portion plus 3 DRO, it would be a two people job for me.
The AD741 jointer bed is heavy, I do not have the comfort guard, because of protruded guard, I can only use left hand to lift it all the way up, it is an exercise for me every time i do that. Now, my left hand is much stronger :)
There was another thread talking AD741 and AD941. Now, AD941 is only US$1000 more than AD741, terrific deal.?
Btw, when I ordered my machines here in Canada, I got 30% off on all the accessories. DRO and overhead saw guard are not accessories, so 30% off is not applied.
Your purchase order is so big, you should not hesitate to ask for lots of accessories for free.
James
On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 12:20 AM, GLEN chris3645@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
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Again I thank you David Best & "Lucky" and everyone one else that has given me input to help me figure out the Kappa 400 X motion.
I am going to make my fourth trip to Felder Sacamento on Tuesday to work thru the options again with them. Thanks to you guys my Quote or offer as they call it is petrified with notes questions and HUH. Alot of this i can fix from the knowledge I got here. and i hope to come back with a nice clean almost correct quote.then I will do this again one more time and if any one would be willing to look at it with my final I DON'T KNOWS Before i place my order I would greatly appreciate it. I will also include the price that i got and Authorization page just in case someone wants to fill their Credit Card info for me for my Christmas gift.
While im up there I am going to start On The Profil 45 X motion and go thru this while process again. Hopefully with less trips up
So with out spreading across to many machines, David? said that putting on the DRO on the cross cut fence adds a lot of weight , At 50 Lbs I think it ok as i will use one of the FAT tables to move to a safe parking place on a wall. But thinking forward on the next machine the Jointer Planer I test ran the AD741 i think it was and I am thinking about going up a size. I had a hard time flipping the bed up with my bad back. some asked why I am not getting separated machines and the reason is not so much about space but money.
The Felder is going to be used in the cabinet finish side of the shop,on the otherside I need a second one To run off the stock from the mill.
I am not going to run mill stock thru my FElder Unless its going in to a specific project So I am getting way off base here., any knowledge on Felder and if there is someting on the machine that i can add to help lifting the bed.
Glen
-----Original Message-----
From: David Luckensmeyer dhluckens@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
To: felder-woodworking <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Dec 4, 2016 1:56 pm
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
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Glen:
David references me with regard to the x-roll outrigger, so I thought I would add my vote for that option. It is exceptionally desirable and I love that feature.
I¡¯m perhaps a little stronger than average, and I can say that the Kappa 400 crosscut fence, with 3 x DRO stops is very heavy. It is too heavy to remove and install easily and regularly. I have the outrigger cart, and although it is possible to get the outrigger and the fence onto the cart, the result is so heavy and ungainly that I wouldn¡¯t do that (I did it once!). Instead, when I take the outrigger off, I grab a blanket, take the crosscut fence off (which is quite easy except for the weight), and lay it on the floor. Better would be to have a dedicated spot on the wall for it. I then remove the outrigger and store on the cart.
Incidentally, I love the DRO system on the crosscut fence so much that I use the Kappa 400 exclusively with the outrigger installed. The only reason I take off the fence is to eek out a little more length for straight-line rips on the slider.
Back to the x-roll outrigger option. In order to change the angle on the crosscut fence, I need to loosen the fence at the pivot point on the slider end of the fence. As you all likely know, this simply involves loosening a knob underneath the outrigger. I then loosen a locking knob on the little x-roll table built into the outrigger, and physically push the fence to the desired angle. To be clear, there is a second ¡°pivot¡± point in the little x-roll table on which the fence rides. Since the table moves (parallel to the main x-roll sliding table), I can move the fence through any angle up to 46 degrees, as the little x-roll table slides with?the fence. Once I¡¯m at the desired position, I simply lock the fence and go for it.
Three more points:?
The x-roll table on the outrigger has a fine adjustment knob which is keyed into the x-roll table such that I can dial in the precise angle I want. I could use the adjustment knob to move the fence from 90 degrees to the target angle, but I find the best procedure is to push the fence in gross movements so that I¡¯m close, and then grab the adjustment knob and go for those last few tenths of a degree.
How do I dial in for those last few tenths of a degree? Well, when you option the x-roll outrigger, you get a digital readout for the angle. I love that! My mitres now look pretty good since I can specify 45.3 degrees, to make sure the joint is closed on the outside.
I did not get the automatic length compensation feature for my crosscut fence on the outrigger. It is a nice feature and would be wonderful if I were cutting mitres all the time. In reality, I very rarely cut mitres, and when I do I just sneak up on the length of cut like everyone else. I don¡¯t regret not having the compensation feature.
Lucky
Glen,
The outrigger table options are indeed confusing. ? Let me try to clarify:
The 1300 and 1500 outrigger tables are basically the same except 1300 is 200mm less wide and only works on sliding tables 8-feet long or shorter. ? Sliding tables longer than 98-inches require the 1500 outrigger (the support arm under the table that supports it throughout the travel of the sliding table must extend further, and is thus longer, and so is the table above it to match). ? I don¡¯t believe Felder offers the 1300 outrigger table on the Kappa 400 (they do on the 700-series) if you get one of the shorter sliding tables.
There is a third outrigger table called the ¡°X-Roll¡± outrigger( option 161) - talk about creating confusion with that name !!! ? ?Anyway, the X-Roll outrigger has a roller-bearing actuated small table that supports the crosscut fence on the outrigger table, and makes it much easer to reposition the fence for angled cuts. ? The digital crosscut fence is about twice as heavy as the analog version, and if you load it up with a digital telescoping extension, it ends up about 50 pounds total. ? Trying to man-handle that fence into the precision miter guide indexing system is a real chore and you can easily damage that index system if you¡¯re not careful. ? So they came up with the X-Roll outrigger table to address this, which has it¡¯s own digital readout of the fence angle built in. ? You can also provision that X-Roll table with a radio transmitter system so it talks to the digital crosscut stops and they cooperate in computing the true position of the stop from the blade when the fence is not at 90-degrees. ? ?The X-Roll outrigger unit even has a hand crank for precise positioning of the angle. ? I don¡¯t have the X-Roll outrigger table (wish I did) but David Luckensmeyer does. ? Look at the photo in the following link and you¡¯ll see the X-Roll outrigger table element directly under the crosscut stop - it moves just like the sliding table, but of course is miniature in comparison - you¡¯ll also see the digital readout for the angle of the crosscut fence in the box between the crosscut stop and the sliding table:?
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As for the crosscut fences, what I posted just prior to this for Michael applies to the Kappa 400, although there are additional option numbers relating to the radio compensation system on the X-Roll outrigger.? Any of the crosscut fences can be put on any of the outrigger tables, although typically the X-Roll outrigger table
As for digital crosscut stops, I¡¯ll add the following. ? The standard digital crosscut stop has the flipper on the left - which means the closest it will go to the blade is just over 8 inches. ? If you want a digital crosscut stop that gets closer to the saw blade, you have to ADD (not substitute) an additional crosscut stop which is Felder part number 604-118. ? That stop has the flipper on the right and will position down to about 3-inches from the blade.? The digital crosscut stop on the telescoping extension is dedicated to the extension and can not be positioned below 74-inches. ? On the non-digital crosscut fences, the analog crosscut stops can be used on the main part of the fence, or positioned on the telescoping extension - this is not the case with the digital stops. ? More info on the digital stops is here - including a document on how to calibrate them: ??
Sing out if you have more questions.
David Best
Hi David
So I haven't said anything lately, I have just been read your and everyone else s posts and I have gathered a wealth of information.
I have looked at some of the other stuff you have mentioned and I think I am set on the kappa 400 x. I have spent many hours looking at this saw and I have to say i understand it pretty well except for the options on the outrigger table. This messages helps but I still cant quite figure it out.? Looking at the pictures of your saw i think we have the same set up but im not exactly sure. Looking at the book there seems to be three variations of the outrigger. I wish you were my Felder Rep it would make it much easier for me to figure this all out.
Glen ??
-----Original Message-----
From: 'david@bestservices IMAP 2'?david@...?[felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
To: felder-woodworking <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Dec 3, 2016 8:36 pm
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
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Michael,
Let me clarify a few things. ? I assume you are considering mechanical scoring because of your off-the-grid power consumption limits. ? If you have the power for electronic scoring (it¡¯s a separate motor), and don¡¯t mind spending the additional for it, then it¡¯s clearly a better choice - even if you don¡¯t use scoring a lot, it will enhance the resale value appreciably. ??
There is absolutely no excuse that your Felder sales rep can¡¯t or won't research the answer to your question about the KF700 mechanical scoring. ? Call Fergus Cook at the Felder Sacramento office and ask him to clarify the mechanical scoring option operation.? If you don¡¯t get satisfaction from Fergus, let me know and I¡¯ll text Hansj?rg Felder directly. ? You¡¯re about to drop coin equivalent to a new Benz - you should be able to get answers and your sales rep should be willing to do the homework to satisfy your questions before you buy. ? PERIOD.
On the subject of Precision Miter Guide, let me clarify - as it¡¯s value to you has everything to do with what kind of work you expect to do. ? If you plan on doing a lot of crosscut miters for things like mitered face frames, picture frames, mitered window/door frames, mitered raised panel doors, the precision miter guide option might be very valuable to you - especially if you¡¯re working from dimensioned drawings where you know the precise length of the part you¡¯re trying to miter. ? ?If you¡¯re planning to do a lot of smaller (under ~36¡±) picture frames or mitered raised panel doors or other similar joinery, you might actually be better off with the DGL or EGL. ? In my own workflow, I have observed that when I want to angle the crosscut fence, 95 percent of the time I either want 45-degrees or some other angle which the precision miter guide doesn¡¯t index, and I find the peg that extends below the crosscut fence a total pain in the ass to index to the slots on the precision miter guide, so I removed the peg. ? I can consistently position the crosscut fence at 45-degrees using the markings on the the top of the crossbar. ? My crosscut fence is twice the weight of what yours will be (because it¡¯s digital), and that has an influence on my frustration level with the indexing system as well. ? I also have the benefit of owning an EGL, so if I¡¯m going to be doing a lot of mitering work, cutting to known lengths, I¡¯ll drop on the EGL. ?
I too would be interested to hear from other K/KF700 owners with precision miter guide just how often they use/need it and if they find it cumbersome to use. ??
One other word of caution. ? If you plan to use the shaper much, you¡¯ll want a power feeder. ? Such power feeder would mount on the tilt-away bracket that attaches to the back edge of the cast iron top of the machine. ? You can order the bracket later when you get the feeder. ? However, as recently as 3 years ago, the tilt away bracket could not be used in conjunction with the 1500 outrigger because the telescoping support arm for the outrigger table would bind on the inverted power feeder. ? This may have changed - I don¡¯t know, but you should know, and if it¡¯s true, and you expect to use a power feeder, you would be better off with the 1300 outrigger.
David Best
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So I'm working on finalizing my order for a KF700 S Pro with a 10 foot slider and the 1500mm outrigger.? I've gotten some excellent advice from David Best.? David noted that in his experience the precision miter attachment is fussy to use and not worth the hassle.? I'm curious whether anyone else has an opinion.? Does anyone who has one like theirs??? Why?? Why not?
David also noted that on his KF700 (back in the day before he upgraded) that the mechanical scoring system required the main blade to be fully elevated to use it.? Is this still the case?? Is it different on the electric scoring unit?? I've asked my the rep at Felder, but she doesn't seem to really know the equipment.
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Michael Garrison Stuber
Newman Lake, WA
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You also have to realize that given the fluctuation of the Euro that prices here might vary quite a bit from time to time. I suspect that has something to do with unpublished prices.
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Much easier to really the put screws to you when the prices aren't listed and can be changed by salesman dependent on the customer and the perceived bankroll. I had this happen this past summer on a Dual51 quote. The quoted price over the phone went up several thousand dollars by the time they sent out the written quote. Now they won't have the chance to quote on anymore machines. I guess in all fairness though you can't get prices on Martin or Altendorf products off the web for any level of machine.
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Brian ,? Here in Europe they don't publish their prices, I think they prefer a salesman to tell you the price! Was talking to Felder Barcelona last week....for anyone thinking of doing a big order, Austria will have a price rise second week of February, he though it would be arround 7%
Jonathan Samways
Fine Interior Woodwork
On 5 Dec 2016 16:25, "Brian Lamb blamb11@... [felder-woodworking]" < felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
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You also have to realize that given the fluctuation of the Euro that prices here might vary quite a bit from time to time. I suspect that has something to do with unpublished prices.
Much easier to really the put screws to you when the prices aren't listed and can be changed by salesman dependent on the customer and the perceived bankroll. I had this happen this past summer on a Dual51 quote. The quoted price over the phone went up several thousand dollars by the time they sent out the written quote. Now they won't have the chance to quote on anymore machines. I guess in all fairness though you can't get prices on Martin or Altendorf products off the web for any level of machine.
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David Luckensmeyer