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So I'm working on finalizing my order for a KF700 S Pro with a 10 foot slider and the 1500mm outrigger.? I've gotten some excellent advice from David Best.? David noted that in his experience the precision miter attachment is fussy to use and not worth the hassle.? I'm curious whether anyone else has an opinion.? Does anyone who has one like theirs??? Why?? Why not? David also noted that on his KF700 (back in the day before he upgraded) that the mechanical scoring system required the main blade to be fully elevated to use it.? Is this still the case?? Is it different on the electric scoring unit?? I've asked my the rep at Felder, but she doesn't seem to really know the equipment. -- Michael Garrison Stuber Newman Lake, WA
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Michael, I have the separate scoring unit and it raises and lowers its own trunnion assembly very nicely. Stays aligned beautifully. It was worth the few bucks more.?
John ~ John? ~ H&H Woodworking?
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On Dec 3, 2016, at 4:18 PM, garrisonstuber@... [felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
?
So I'm working on finalizing my order for a KF700 S Pro with a 10 foot slider and the 1500mm outrigger.? I've gotten some excellent advice from David Best.? David noted that in his experience the precision miter attachment is fussy to use and not worth the hassle.? I'm curious whether anyone else has an opinion.? Does anyone who has one like theirs??? Why?? Why not?
David also noted that on his KF700 (back in the day before he upgraded) that the mechanical scoring system required the main blade to be fully elevated to use it.? Is this still the case?? Is it different on the electric scoring unit?? I've asked my the rep at Felder, but she doesn't seem to really know the equipment.
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
Newman Lake, WA
|
I have a KF700S with (I guess) the precision miter system (it keeps the ruler on the fence reading accurately as you change angles—but only for the designated “standard” angles).? I make a lot of randomly sized 4 side and 6 side picture frames for my wife (she who approved the saw purchase) and I like it a lot.? Guess it depends on the kind of work you do. ? I also have the scoring unit with its own motor and its blade height is independent of the main blade.? Cannot answer about current model K700 with mechanical scoring. ?
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From: felder-woodworking@... [mailto:felder-woodworking@...]
Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2016 6:19 PM
To: felder-woodworking@...
Subject: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit? ? So I'm working on finalizing my order for a KF700 S Pro with a 10 foot slider and the 1500mm outrigger.? I've gotten some excellent advice from David Best.? David noted that in his experience the precision miter attachment is fussy to use and not worth the hassle.? I'm curious whether anyone else has an opinion.? Does anyone who has one like theirs??? Why?? Why not?
David also noted that on his KF700 (back in the day before he upgraded) that the mechanical scoring system required the main blade to be fully elevated to use it.? Is this still the case?? Is it different on the electric scoring unit?? I've asked my the rep at Felder, but she doesn't seem to really know the equipment.
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
Newman Lake, WA ?
|
My K700S has the separate motors and adjustment at any height but were only available with 3 phase, ?don't know if this has changed since 2010. Just on a side note, I always run my blades at full height, I believe that in most cases that is where they are designed to run best. Keeping the blade just above the height is a throw back to cabinet saws with no guards.?
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-------- Original message -------- From: "J Ferandin flyjtf@... [felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@...> Date: 2016-12-03 9:28 PM (GMT-05:00) To: felder-woodworking@... Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
?
Michael, I have the separate scoring unit and it raises and lowers its own trunnion assembly very nicely. Stays aligned beautifully. It was worth the few bucks more.?
John ~ John? ~ H&H Woodworking?
?
So I'm working on finalizing my order for a KF700 S Pro with a 10 foot slider and the 1500mm outrigger.? I've gotten some excellent advice from David Best.? David noted that in his experience the precision miter attachment is fussy to use and not worth the hassle.? I'm curious whether anyone else has an opinion.? Does anyone who has one like theirs??? Why?? Why not?
David also noted that on his KF700 (back in the day before he upgraded) that the mechanical scoring system required the main blade to be fully elevated to use it.? Is this still the case?? Is it different on the electric scoring unit?? I've asked my the rep at Felder, but she doesn't seem to really know the equipment.
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
Newman Lake, WA
|
My KF700S (circa 2013) has single phase motors.? When I first replied to you I assumed that option was still available, but did not look at the current specifications to check. ?
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From: felder-woodworking@... [mailto:felder-woodworking@...]
Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2016 7:16 PM
To: FOG
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit? ? My K700S has the separate motors and adjustment at any height but were only available with 3 phase, ?don't know if this has changed since 2010. Just on a side note, I always run my blades at full height, I believe that in most cases that is where they are designed to run best. Keeping the blade just above the height is a throw back to cabinet saws with no guards.?
-------- Original message --------
From: "J Ferandin flyjtf@... [felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@...>
Date: 2016-12-03 9:28 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: felder-woodworking@...
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
?
I have the separate scoring unit and it raises and lowers its own trunnion assembly very nicely. Stays aligned beautifully. It was worth the few bucks more.? ? So I'm working on finalizing my order for a KF700 S Pro with a 10 foot slider and the 1500mm outrigger.? I've gotten some excellent advice from David Best.? David noted that in his experience the precision miter attachment is fussy to use and not worth the hassle.? I'm curious whether anyone else has an opinion.? Does anyone who has one like theirs??? Why?? Why not?
David also noted that on his KF700 (back in the day before he upgraded) that the mechanical scoring system required the main blade to be fully elevated to use it.? Is this still the case?? Is it different on the electric scoring unit?? I've asked my the rep at Felder, but she doesn't seem to really know the equipment.
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
Newman Lake, WA ?
|
Michael,
I have 3 phase 7.5HP KF700SP with a 9 foot slider. Before I placed the order back in March, I also got advice from David Best.
I took all the advice from David Best regarding the machine configuration except precision miter attachment and DRO on the rip fence.
The reason I bought it is I have DRO (one, not three David Best has on his Format-4 Kappa 400) on the crosscut fence, so I can set the DRO and fence angle, then cut it, perfect every single time! I did remove the telescope fence, otherwise, the crosscut fence is TOO heavy and very very difficult to move. Also, the precision miter attachment is calibrated at the factory, you cannot buy it later. I think I paid CDN $1000 for this option, so it should be less in US$.
Definitely get the separate scoring unit, forget about the mechanical scoring. This is something you cannot add it later either. And it is safer having a separate scoring unit.?
I would also recommend the remote-on switch on the sliding table and power drive for the shaper height adjustment.
James
On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 9:18 PM, garrisonstuber@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
?
So I'm working on finalizing my order for a KF700 S Pro with a 10 foot slider and the 1500mm outrigger.? I've gotten some excellent advice from David Best.? David noted that in his experience the precision miter attachment is fussy to use and not worth the hassle.? I'm curious whether anyone else has an opinion.? Does anyone who has one like theirs??? Why?? Why not?
David also noted that on his KF700 (back in the day before he upgraded) that the mechanical scoring system required the main blade to be fully elevated to use it.? Is this still the case?? Is it different on the electric scoring unit?? I've asked my the rep at Felder, but she doesn't seem to really know the equipment.
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
Newman Lake, WA
|
Yes, the current single phase KF700 has separate scoring unit.
James
?
My KF700S (circa 2013) has single phase motors.? When I first replied to you I assumed that option was still available, but did not look at the current specifications to check. ? ? ? My K700S has the separate motors and adjustment at any height but were only available with 3 phase, ?don't know if this has changed since 2010. Just on a side note, I always run my blades at full height, I believe that in most cases that is where they are designed to run best. Keeping the blade just above the height is a throw back to cabinet saws with no guards.?
-------- Original message --------
From: "J Ferandin flyjtf@... [felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 2016-12-03 9:28 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
?
I have the separate scoring unit and it raises and lowers its own trunnion assembly very nicely. Stays aligned beautifully. It was worth the few bucks more.? ? So I'm working on finalizing my order for a KF700 S Pro with a 10 foot slider and the 1500mm outrigger.? I've gotten some excellent advice from David Best.? David noted that in his experience the precision miter attachment is fussy to use and not worth the hassle.? I'm curious whether anyone else has an opinion.? Does anyone who has one like theirs??? Why?? Why not?
David also noted that on his KF700 (back in the day before he upgraded) that the mechanical scoring system required the main blade to be fully elevated to use it.? Is this still the case?? Is it different on the electric scoring unit?? I've asked my the rep at Felder, but she doesn't seem to really know the equipment.
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
Newman Lake, WA ?
|
I didn't realize you could get a DRO on the fence.? Do you mean a DRO on the stops on the crosscut fence, or a DRO on the table-saw style rip fence, or a DRO on Felder's slider rip fence?? (There are a lot of potential fences here).
Also, when you say you removed the telescoping fence, do you mean you removed the telescoping portion, or that you switched the crosscut fence for the outrigger table with one of the smaller crosscut fences?
|
Michael,
Let me clarify a few things. ? I assume you are considering mechanical scoring because of your off-the-grid power consumption limits. ? If you have the power for electronic scoring (it’s a separate motor), and don’t mind spending the additional for it, then it’s clearly a better choice - even if you don’t use scoring a lot, it will enhance the resale value appreciably. ??
There is absolutely no excuse that your Felder sales rep can’t or won't research the answer to your question about the KF700 mechanical scoring. ? Call Fergus Cook at the Felder Sacramento office and ask him to clarify the mechanical scoring option operation. ?If you don’t get satisfaction from Fergus, let me know and I’ll text Hansj?rg Felder directly. ? You’re about to drop coin equivalent to a new Benz - you should be able to get answers and your sales rep should be willing to do the homework to satisfy your questions before you buy. ? PERIOD.
On the subject of Precision Miter Guide, let me clarify - as it’s value to you has everything to do with what kind of work you expect to do. ? If you plan on doing a lot of crosscut miters for things like mitered face frames, picture frames, mitered window/door frames, mitered raised panel doors, the precision miter guide option might be very valuable to you - especially if you’re working from dimensioned drawings where you know the precise length of the part you’re trying to miter. ? ?If you’re planning to do a lot of smaller (under ~36”) picture frames or mitered raised panel doors or other similar joinery, you might actually be better off with the DGL or EGL. ? In my own workflow, I have observed that when I want to angle the crosscut fence, 95 percent of the time I either want 45-degrees or some other angle which the precision miter guide doesn’t index, and I find the peg that extends below the crosscut fence a total pain in the ass to index to the slots on the precision miter guide, so I removed the peg. ? I can consistently position the crosscut fence at 45-degrees using the markings on the the top of the crossbar. ? My crosscut fence is twice the weight of what yours will be (because it’s digital), and that has an influence on my frustration level with the indexing system as well. ? I also have the benefit of owning an EGL, so if I’m going to be doing a lot of mitering work, cutting to known lengths, I’ll drop on the EGL. ?
I too would be interested to hear from other K/KF700 owners with precision miter guide just how often they use/need it and if they find it cumbersome to use. ??
One other word of caution. ? If you plan to use the shaper much, you’ll want a power feeder. ? Such power feeder would mount on the tilt-away bracket that attaches to the back edge of the cast iron top of the machine. ? You can order the bracket later when you get the feeder. ? However, as recently as 3 years ago, the tilt away bracket could not be used in conjunction with the 1500 outrigger because the telescoping support arm for the outrigger table would bind on the inverted power feeder. ? This may have changed - I don’t know, but you should know, and if it’s true, and you expect to use a power feeder, you would be better off with the 1300 outrigger.
David Best ??
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So I'm working on finalizing my order for a KF700 S Pro with a 10 foot slider and the 1500mm outrigger.? I've gotten some excellent advice from David Best.? David noted that in his experience the precision miter attachment is fussy to use and not worth the hassle.? I'm curious whether anyone else has an opinion.? Does anyone who has one like theirs??? Why?? Why not?
David also noted that on his KF700 (back in the day before he upgraded) that the mechanical scoring system required the main blade to be fully elevated to use it.? Is this still the case?? Is it different on the electric scoring unit?? I've asked my the rep at Felder, but she doesn't seem to really know the equipment.
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
Newman Lake, WA
|
Thanks for the clarifications David.? You are correct I was planning on the mechanical scoring unit because I didn't want yet another motor to run on my limited power budget.? Does anybody know what the HP or KW rating on the scoring motor is?
I really appreciate the warning about the 1300 versus the 1500 outrigger.? I'll give them a call next week.? Liz has been helpful, but doesn't seem to be particularly knowledgeable.? I stopped by Felder's Scramento facility a few weeks back to look at the equipment.? Unfortunately, they are in the process of moving so nothing was powered.? The one tech that was around had just been hired six weeks ago.? I briefly met Fergus.? He was knowledgeable and responsive, but clearly busy with other things.
I have an existing smaller powerfeeder for my 3/4" spindle shaper.? I will definitely be adding a powerfeeder to the KF 700.? The only question is whether I mount my existing powerfeeder on it, or purchase a newer/bigger one sometime in 2017.
My experience is that the powerfeeder makes all the difference in terms of the safety and enjoyment when using a shaper, especially if you have a lot of material to run.? I'm guessing I'm going to want a bigger powerfeeder to go with the bigger shaper.
|
Yes, check David Best's album?
On the heavy crosscut fence, you could have 3 DRO. The standard one with the stop on the left, then the one with stop on the right (), also one on end of the telescoping fence.?
You can also have DRO on the table-saw style rip fence,?
Yes, I removed the telescoping portion of the crosscut fence on the outrigger table. I did not order the short crosscut fence, I wish I had bought it, since moving the heavy crosscut fence to front/rear position is not easy.
I strongly recommend DRO. At least, get one on the crosscut fence. You get repeatability and make cut so much quicker and accurate. And I believe it is lot more expensive to get DRO after the purchase. This was the reason David Best sold his K975 slider and bought Kappa 400.
James
On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 11:34 PM, garrisonstuber@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
?
I didn't realize you could get a DRO on the fence.? Do you mean a DRO on the stops on the crosscut fence, or a DRO on the table-saw style rip fence, or a DRO on Felder's slider rip fence?? (There are a lot of potential fences here).
Also, when you say you removed the telescoping fence, do you mean you removed the telescoping portion, or that you switched the crosscut fence for the outrigger table with one of the smaller crosscut fences?
|
Michael,
Let me refer you to the configurator for the KF700: ?
Click on “Specifications/Configurator” and you’ll see all the available options for the machine.
The “analog” crosscut fences (where you set the crosscut stop by aligning to a tape measure marking by sight) are options 166 and 169. ? This is how you set the stop on either of these fences: ?
Option 166 extends 74 inches to the left of the saw blade, and has a telescoping extension that will carry the crosscut stop to 102 inches. ? ?Option 169 extends 81-inches to the left of the saw blade and has a telescoping extension that will carry the crosscut stop to 126-inches. ? Option 169 has a different outrigger table arrangement with it’s own X-Roll mechanism for angling the fence. ? The telescoping extension on both 166 and 169 can be removed to save weigh or shorten the overall length the fence stick-out by about 7 inches when not in use.
Option #171 provisions the machine with a different and entirely different crosscut fence that has a digital cross stop with LED readout position indication that can be used out to 74” length. ?That digital stop looks like this:
Beyond the 74" length, the telescoping extension on the #171 fence is not digital - you sight against a ruler to set the distance just like the “analog” fence discussed above. ? If you want a second digital crosscut stop dedicated to the telescoping extension component, that’s option #172 which will give you digital readout and positioning beyond 74-inches - it also makes the fence really heavy.
You can see more about the digital crosscut fence/stops here - although as you will see, this is a custom configuration with 3-stops:
The KF700S can be optioned with an LED digital readout on the rip fence position. ? On the configurator, that is option #85 or #86 depending on the width rip capacity of the machine. ? That DRO looks like this:
Hope this helps.
Also, looking at the configurator again, I do not see a cautionary comment about the tilt-away bracket conflicting with the 1500 outrigger now. ? And looking at the photos, it appears to me that the tilt-away bracket attachment to the cast iron top as been redesigned - probably to eliminate the conflict - but you should double check nonetheless.
David Best
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I didn't realize you could get a DRO on the fence.? Do you mean a DRO on the stops on the crosscut fence, or a DRO on the table-saw style rip fence, or a DRO on Felder's slider rip fence?? (There are a lot of potential fences here).
Also, when you say you removed the telescoping fence, do you mean you removed the telescoping portion, or that you switched the crosscut fence for the outrigger table with one of the smaller crosscut fences?
|
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On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 11:59 PM, garrisonstuber@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
?
Thanks for the clarifications David.? You are correct I was planning on the mechanical scoring unit because I didn't want yet another motor to run on my limited power budget.? Does anybody know what the HP or KW rating on the scoring motor is?
I really appreciate the warning about the 1300 versus the 1500 outrigger.? I'll give them a call next week.? Liz has been helpful, but doesn't seem to be particularly knowledgeable.? I stopped by Felder's Scramento facility a few weeks back to look at the equipment.? Unfortunately, they are in the process of moving so nothing was powered.? The one tech that was around had just been hired six weeks ago.? I briefly met Fergus.? He was knowledgeable and responsive, but clearly busy with other things.
I have an existing smaller powerfeeder for my 3/4" spindle shaper.? I will definitely be adding a powerfeeder to the KF 700.? The only question is whether I mount my existing powerfeeder on it, or purchase a newer/bigger one sometime in 2017.
My experience is that the powerfeeder makes all the difference in terms of the safety and enjoyment when using a shaper, especially if you have a lot of material to run.? I'm guessing I'm going to want a bigger powerfeeder to go with the bigger shaper.
|
Hi David
So I haven't said anything lately, I have just been read your and everyone else s posts and I have gathered a wealth of information.
I have looked at some of the other stuff you have mentioned and I think I am set on the kappa 400 x. I have spent many hours looking at this saw and I have to say i understand it pretty well except for the options on the outrigger table. This messages helps but I still cant quite figure it out.? Looking at the pictures of your saw i think we have the same set up but im not exactly sure. Looking at the book there seems to be three variations of the outrigger. I wish you were my Felder Rep it would make it much easier for me to figure this all out.
Glen ?
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-----Original Message-----
From: 'david@bestservices IMAP 2' david@... [felder-woodworking]
To: felder-woodworking
Sent: Sat, Dec 3, 2016 8:36 pm
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
?
Michael,
Let me clarify a few things. ? I assume you are considering mechanical scoring because of your off-the-grid power consumption limits. ? If you have the power for electronic scoring (it’s a separate motor), and don’t mind spending the additional for it, then it’s clearly a better choice - even if you don’t use scoring a lot, it will enhance the resale value appreciably. ??
There is absolutely no excuse that your Felder sales rep can’t or won't research the answer to your question about the KF700 mechanical scoring. ? Call Fergus Cook at the Felder Sacramento office and ask him to clarify the mechanical scoring option operation. ?If you don’t get satisfaction from Fergus, let me know and I’ll text Hansj?rg Felder directly. ? You’re about to drop coin equivalent to a new Benz - you should be able to get answers and your sales rep should be willing to do the homework to satisfy your questions before you buy. ? PERIOD.
On the subject of Precision Miter Guide, let me clarify - as it’s value to you has everything to do with what kind of work you expect to do. ? If you plan on doing a lot of crosscut miters for things like mitered face frames, picture frames, mitered window/door frames, mitered raised panel doors, the precision miter guide option might be very valuable to you - especially if you’re working from dimensioned drawings where you know the precise length of the part you’re trying to miter. ? ?If you’re planning to do a lot of smaller (under ~36”) picture frames or mitered raised panel doors or other similar joinery, you might actually be better off with the DGL or EGL. ? In my own workflow, I have observed that when I want to angle the crosscut fence, 95 percent of the time I either want 45-degrees or some other angle which the precision miter guide doesn’t index, and I find the peg that extends below the crosscut fence a total pain in the ass to index to the slots on the precision miter guide, so I removed the peg. ? I can consistently position the crosscut fence at 45-degrees using the markings on the the top of the crossbar. ? My crosscut fence is twice the weight of what yours will be (because it’s digital), and that has an influence on my frustration level with the indexing system as well. ? I also have the benefit of owning an EGL, so if I’m going to be doing a lot of mitering work, cutting to known lengths, I’ll drop on the EGL. ?
I too would be interested to hear from other K/KF700 owners with precision miter guide just how often they use/need it and if they find it cumbersome to use. ??
One other word of caution. ? If you plan to use the shaper much, you’ll want a power feeder. ? Such power feeder would mount on the tilt-away bracket that attaches to the back edge of the cast iron top of the machine. ? You can order the bracket later when you get the feeder. ? However, as recently as 3 years ago, the tilt away bracket could not be used in conjunction with the 1500 outrigger because the telescoping support arm for the outrigger table would bind on the inverted power feeder. ? This may have changed - I don’t know, but you should know, and if it’s true, and you expect to use a power feeder, you would be better off with the 1300 outrigger.
David Best
??
So I'm working on finalizing my order for a KF700 S Pro with a 10 foot slider and the 1500mm outrigger.? I've gotten some excellent advice from David Best.? David noted that in his experience the precision miter attachment is fussy to use and not worth the hassle.? I'm curious whether anyone else has an opinion.? Does anyone who has one like theirs??? Why?? Why not?
David also noted that on his KF700 (back in the day before he upgraded) that the mechanical scoring system required the main blade to be fully elevated to use it.? Is this still the case?? Is it different on the electric scoring unit?? I've asked my the rep at Felder, but she doesn't seem to really know the equipment.
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
Newman Lake, WA
|
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-----Original Message-----
From: 'david@bestservices IMAP 2' david@... [felder-woodworking]
To: felder-woodworking
Sent: Sat, Dec 3, 2016 9:17 pm
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
?
Michael,
Let me refer you to the configurator for the KF700: ?
Click on “Specifications/Configurator” and you’ll see all the available options for the machine.
The “analog” crosscut fences (where you set the crosscut stop by aligning to a tape measure marking by sight) are options 166 and 169. ? This is how you set the stop on either of these fences: ?
Option 166 extends 74 inches to the left of the saw blade, and has a telescoping extension that will carry the crosscut stop to 102 inches. ? ?Option 169 extends 81-inches to the left of the saw blade and has a telescoping extension that will carry the crosscut stop to 126-inches. ? Option 169 has a different outrigger table arrangement with it’s own X-Roll mechanism for angling the fence. ? The telescoping extension on both 166 and 169 can be removed to save weigh or shorten the overall length the fence stick-out by about 7 inches when not in use.
Option #171 provisions the machine with a different and entirely different crosscut fence that has a digital cross stop with LED readout position indication that can be used out to 74” length. ?That digital stop looks like this:
Beyond the 74" length, the telescoping extension on the #171 fence is not digital - you sight against a ruler to set the distance just like the “analog” fence discussed above. ? If you want a second digital crosscut stop dedicated to the telescoping extension component, that’s option #172 which will give you digital readout and positioning beyond 74-inches - it also makes the fence really heavy.
You can see more about the digital crosscut fence/stops here - although as you will see, this is a custom configuration with 3-stops:
The KF700S can be optioned with an LED digital readout on the rip fence position. ? On the configurator, that is option #85 or #86 depending on the width rip capacity of the machine. ? That DRO looks like this:
Hope this helps.
Also, looking at the configurator again, I do not see a cautionary comment about the tilt-away bracket conflicting with the 1500 outrigger now. ? And looking at the photos, it appears to me that the tilt-away bracket attachment to the cast iron top as been redesigned - probably to eliminate the conflict - but you should double check nonetheless.
David Best
I didn't realize you could get a DRO on the fence.? Do you mean a DRO on the stops on the crosscut fence, or a DRO on the table-saw style rip fence, or a DRO on Felder's slider rip fence?? (There are a lot of potential fences here).
Also, when you say you removed the telescoping fence, do you mean you removed the telescoping portion, or that you switched the crosscut fence for the outrigger table with one of the smaller crosscut fences?
|
My 2013 KF700S (painted green so not the current model) has the 1500 outrigger and it does not interfere with the power feeder when the tilt table is in the down position. I am not a strong man and an option I enjoy (3rd party option) is the pressurized cylinder to help with lifting the power feeder from the down position to above the table for use.
From: felder-woodworking@... [mailto:felder-woodworking@...]
Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2016 9:23 PM
To: felder-woodworking@...
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
Damn your fast
Glen
-----Original Message-----
From: 'david@bestservices IMAP 2' david@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...>
To: felder-woodworking <felder-woodworking@...>
Sent: Sat, Dec 3, 2016 9:17 pm
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
Michael,
Let me refer you to the configurator for the KF700:
Click on “Specifications/Configurator” and you’ll see all the available options for the machine.
The “analog” crosscut fences (where you set the crosscut stop by aligning to a tape measure marking by sight) are options 166 and 169. This is how you set the stop on either of these fences:
Option 166 extends 74 inches to the left of the saw blade, and has a telescoping extension that will carry the crosscut stop to 102 inches. Option 169 extends 81-inches to the left of the saw blade and has a telescoping extension that will carry the crosscut stop to 126-inches. Option 169 has a different outrigger table arrangement with it’s own X-Roll mechanism for angling the fence. The telescoping extension on both 166 and 169 can be removed to save weigh or shorten the overall length the fence stick-out by about 7 inches when not in use.
Option #171 provisions the machine with a different and entirely different crosscut fence that has a digital cross stop with LED readout position indication that can be used out to 74” length. That digital stop looks like this:
Beyond the 74" length, the telescoping extension on the #171 fence is not digital - you sight against a ruler to set the distance just like the “analog” fence discussed above. If you want a second digital crosscut stop dedicated to the telescoping extension component, that’s option #172 which will give you digital readout and positioning beyond 74-inches - it also makes the fence really heavy.
You can see more about the digital crosscut fence/stops here - although as you will see, this is a custom configuration with 3-stops:
The KF700S can be optioned with an LED digital readout on the rip fence position. On the configurator, that is option #85 or #86 depending on the width rip capacity of the machine. That DRO looks like this:
Hope this helps.
Also, looking at the configurator again, I do not see a cautionary comment about the tilt-away bracket conflicting with the 1500 outrigger now. And looking at the photos, it appears to me that the tilt-away bracket attachment to the cast iron top as been redesigned - probably to eliminate the conflict - but you should double check nonetheless.
David Best
On Dec 3, 2016, at 8:34 PM, garrisonstuber@... <mailto:garrisonstuber@...> [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@... <mailto:felder-woodworking@...> > wrote:
I didn't realize you could get a DRO on the fence. Do you mean a DRO on the stops on the crosscut fence, or a DRO on the table-saw style rip fence, or a DRO on Felder's slider rip fence? (There are a lot of potential fences here).
Also, when you say you removed the telescoping fence, do you mean you removed the telescoping portion, or that you switched the crosscut fence for the outrigger table with one of the smaller crosscut fences?
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Thank you.? I've seen the configurator, but without the background details, it's not terribly useful.? So many of the items have similar labels, if you're not already a felder expert, you get to feeling a little lost.? Your explanations are very helpful.
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Thanks James, and thank you for the numbers on the scoring motor as well.? I'm still not sure how much cross cutting I'm going to do on this machine, other than panels.? I get spot on repeatable cross cuts with my collection well tuned vintage DeWalt radial saws.? The only problem is that slicing up a 4x8 sheet on them sucks.? With the right blade (negative hook) and adjustments you can safely rip, but it's awkward and the dust collection is abysmal.? My primary focus for this machine will be sheet goods, ripping (though I do a lot of that on my bandsaw), and shaping. That said, the DROs may still be very useful for setting up for sheet goods.
I assume that the DRO will happily switch between standard and metric?? I plan on going with a metric machine.? (I have largely switched to metric in my woodworking.)
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Glen,
The outrigger table options are indeed confusing. ? Let me try to clarify:
The 1300 and 1500 outrigger tables are basically the same except 1300 is 200mm less wide and only works on sliding tables 8-feet long or shorter. ? Sliding tables longer than 98-inches require the 1500 outrigger (the support arm under the table that supports it throughout the travel of the sliding table must extend further, and is thus longer, and so is the table above it to match). ? I don’t believe Felder offers the 1300 outrigger table on the Kappa 400 (they do on the 700-series) if you get one of the shorter sliding tables.
There is a third outrigger table called the “X-Roll” outrigger( option 161) - talk about creating confusion with that name !!! ? ?Anyway, the X-Roll outrigger has a roller-bearing actuated small table that supports the crosscut fence on the outrigger table, and makes it much easer to reposition the fence for angled cuts. ? The digital crosscut fence is about twice as heavy as the analog version, and if you load it up with a digital telescoping extension, it ends up about 50 pounds total. ? Trying to man-handle that fence into the precision miter guide indexing system is a real chore and you can easily damage that index system if you’re not careful. ? So they came up with the X-Roll outrigger table to address this, which has it’s own digital readout of the fence angle built in. ? You can also provision that X-Roll table with a radio transmitter system so it talks to the digital crosscut stops and they cooperate in computing the true position of the stop from the blade when the fence is not at 90-degrees. ? ?The X-Roll outrigger unit even has a hand crank for precise positioning of the angle. ? I don’t have the X-Roll outrigger table (wish I did) but David Luckensmeyer does. ? Look at the photo in the following link and you’ll see the X-Roll outrigger table element directly under the crosscut stop - it moves just like the sliding table, but of course is miniature in comparison - you’ll also see the digital readout for the angle of the crosscut fence in the box between the crosscut stop and the sliding table:?
?
As for the crosscut fences, what I posted just prior to this for Michael applies to the Kappa 400, although there are additional option numbers relating to the radio compensation system on the X-Roll outrigger. ?Any of the crosscut fences can be put on any of the outrigger tables, although typically the X-Roll outrigger table
As for digital crosscut stops, I’ll add the following. ? The standard digital crosscut stop has the flipper on the left - which means the closest it will go to the blade is just over 8 inches. ? If you want a digital crosscut stop that gets closer to the saw blade, you have to ADD (not substitute) an additional crosscut stop which is Felder part number 604-118. ? That stop has the flipper on the right and will position down to about 3-inches from the blade. ?The digital crosscut stop on the telescoping extension is dedicated to the extension and can not be positioned below 74-inches. ? On the non-digital crosscut fences, the analog crosscut stops can be used on the main part of the fence, or positioned on the telescoping extension - this is not the case with the digital stops. ? More info on the digital stops is here - including a document on how to calibrate them: ??
Sing out if you have more questions.
David Best
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hi David
So I haven't said anything lately, I have just been read your and everyone else s posts and I have gathered a wealth of information.
I have looked at some of the other stuff you have mentioned and I think I am set on the kappa 400 x. I have spent many hours looking at this saw and I have to say i understand it pretty well except for the options on the outrigger table. This messages helps but I still cant quite figure it out.? Looking at the pictures of your saw i think we have the same set up but im not exactly sure. Looking at the book there seems to be three variations of the outrigger. I wish you were my Felder Rep it would make it much easier for me to figure this all out.
Glen ??
-----Original Message----- From: 'david@bestservices IMAP 2' ?david@...?[felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> To: felder-woodworking < felder-woodworking@...> Sent: Sat, Dec 3, 2016 8:36 pm Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit ?Michael,
Let me clarify a few things. ? I assume you are considering mechanical scoring because of your off-the-grid power consumption limits. ? If you have the power for electronic scoring (it’s a separate motor), and don’t mind spending the additional for it, then it’s clearly a better choice - even if you don’t use scoring a lot, it will enhance the resale value appreciably. ??
There is absolutely no excuse that your Felder sales rep can’t or won't research the answer to your question about the KF700 mechanical scoring. ? Call Fergus Cook at the Felder Sacramento office and ask him to clarify the mechanical scoring option operation. ?If you don’t get satisfaction from Fergus, let me know and I’ll text Hansj?rg Felder directly. ? You’re about to drop coin equivalent to a new Benz - you should be able to get answers and your sales rep should be willing to do the homework to satisfy your questions before you buy. ? PERIOD.
On the subject of Precision Miter Guide, let me clarify - as it’s value to you has everything to do with what kind of work you expect to do. ? If you plan on doing a lot of crosscut miters for things like mitered face frames, picture frames, mitered window/door frames, mitered raised panel doors, the precision miter guide option might be very valuable to you - especially if you’re working from dimensioned drawings where you know the precise length of the part you’re trying to miter. ? ?If you’re planning to do a lot of smaller (under ~36”) picture frames or mitered raised panel doors or other similar joinery, you might actually be better off with the DGL or EGL. ? In my own workflow, I have observed that when I want to angle the crosscut fence, 95 percent of the time I either want 45-degrees or some other angle which the precision miter guide doesn’t index, and I find the peg that extends below the crosscut fence a total pain in the ass to index to the slots on the precision miter guide, so I removed the peg. ? I can consistently position the crosscut fence at 45-degrees using the markings on the the top of the crossbar. ? My crosscut fence is twice the weight of what yours will be (because it’s digital), and that has an influence on my frustration level with the indexing system as well. ? I also have the benefit of owning an EGL, so if I’m going to be doing a lot of mitering work, cutting to known lengths, I’ll drop on the EGL. ?
I too would be interested to hear from other K/KF700 owners with precision miter guide just how often they use/need it and if they find it cumbersome to use. ??
One other word of caution. ? If you plan to use the shaper much, you’ll want a power feeder. ? Such power feeder would mount on the tilt-away bracket that attaches to the back edge of the cast iron top of the machine. ? You can order the bracket later when you get the feeder. ? However, as recently as 3 years ago, the tilt away bracket could not be used in conjunction with the 1500 outrigger because the telescoping support arm for the outrigger table would bind on the inverted power feeder. ? This may have changed - I don’t know, but you should know, and if it’s true, and you expect to use a power feeder, you would be better off with the 1300 outrigger.
David Best ??
So I'm working on finalizing my order for a KF700 S Pro with a 10 foot slider and the 1500mm outrigger.? I've gotten some excellent advice from David Best.? David noted that in his experience the precision miter attachment is fussy to use and not worth the hassle.? I'm curious whether anyone else has an opinion.? Does anyone who has one like theirs??? Why?? Why not?
David also noted that on his KF700 (back in the day before he upgraded) that the mechanical scoring system required the main blade to be fully elevated to use it.? Is this still the case?? Is it different on the electric scoring unit?? I've asked my the rep at Felder, but she doesn't seem to really know the equipment.
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
Newman Lake, WA
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Glen,
The outrigger table options are indeed confusing. ? Let me try to clarify:
The 1300 and 1500 outrigger tables are basically the same except 1300 is 200mm less wide and only works on sliding tables 8-feet long or shorter. ? Sliding tables longer than 98-inches require the 1500 outrigger (the support arm under the table that supports it throughout the travel of the sliding table must extend further, and is thus longer, and so is the table above it to match). ? I don’t believe Felder offers the 1300 outrigger table on the Kappa 400 (they do on the 700-series) if you get one of the shorter sliding tables.
There is a third outrigger table called the “X-Roll” outrigger( option 161) - talk about creating confusion with that name !!! ? ?Anyway, the X-Roll outrigger has a roller-bearing actuated small table that supports the crosscut fence on the outrigger table, and makes it much easer to reposition the fence for angled cuts. ? The digital crosscut fence is about twice as heavy as the analog version, and if you load it up with a digital telescoping extension, it ends up about 50 pounds total. ? Trying to man-handle that fence into the precision miter guide indexing system is a real chore and you can easily damage that index system if you’re not careful. ? So they came up with the X-Roll outrigger table to address this, which has it’s own digital readout of the fence angle built in. ? You can also provision that X-Roll table with a radio transmitter system so it talks to the digital crosscut stops and they cooperate in computing the true position of the stop from the blade when the fence is not at 90-degrees. ? ?The X-Roll outrigger unit even has a hand crank for precise positioning of the angle. ? I don’t have the X-Roll outrigger table (wish I did) but David Luckensmeyer does. ? Look at the photo in the following link and you’ll see the X-Roll outrigger table element directly under the crosscut stop - it moves just like the sliding table, but of course is miniature in comparison - you’ll also see the digital readout for the angle of the crosscut fence in the box between the crosscut stop and the sliding table:?
?
As for the crosscut fences, what I posted just prior to this for Michael applies to the Kappa 400, although there are additional option numbers relating to the radio compensation system on the X-Roll outrigger. ?Any of the crosscut fences can be put on any of the outrigger tables, although typically the X-Roll outrigger table
As for digital crosscut stops, I’ll add the following. ? The standard digital crosscut stop has the flipper on the left - which means the closest it will go to the blade is just over 8 inches. ? If you want a digital crosscut stop that gets closer to the saw blade, you have to ADD (not substitute) an additional crosscut stop which is Felder part number 604-118. ? That stop has the flipper on the right and will position down to about 3-inches from the blade. ?The digital crosscut stop on the telescoping extension is dedicated to the extension and can not be positioned below 74-inches. ? On the non-digital crosscut fences, the analog crosscut stops can be used on the main part of the fence, or positioned on the telescoping extension - this is not the case with the digital stops. ? More info on the digital stops is here - including a document on how to calibrate them: ??
Sing out if you have more questions.
David Best
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hi David
So I haven't said anything lately, I have just been read your and everyone else s posts and I have gathered a wealth of information.
I have looked at some of the other stuff you have mentioned and I think I am set on the kappa 400 x. I have spent many hours looking at this saw and I have to say i understand it pretty well except for the options on the outrigger table. This messages helps but I still cant quite figure it out.? Looking at the pictures of your saw i think we have the same set up but im not exactly sure. Looking at the book there seems to be three variations of the outrigger. I wish you were my Felder Rep it would make it much easier for me to figure this all out.
Glen ??
-----Original Message----- From: 'david@bestservices IMAP 2' ?david@...?[felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> To: felder-woodworking < felder-woodworking@...> Sent: Sat, Dec 3, 2016 8:36 pm Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit ?Michael,
Let me clarify a few things. ? I assume you are considering mechanical scoring because of your off-the-grid power consumption limits. ? If you have the power for electronic scoring (it’s a separate motor), and don’t mind spending the additional for it, then it’s clearly a better choice - even if you don’t use scoring a lot, it will enhance the resale value appreciably. ??
There is absolutely no excuse that your Felder sales rep can’t or won't research the answer to your question about the KF700 mechanical scoring. ? Call Fergus Cook at the Felder Sacramento office and ask him to clarify the mechanical scoring option operation. ?If you don’t get satisfaction from Fergus, let me know and I’ll text Hansj?rg Felder directly. ? You’re about to drop coin equivalent to a new Benz - you should be able to get answers and your sales rep should be willing to do the homework to satisfy your questions before you buy. ? PERIOD.
On the subject of Precision Miter Guide, let me clarify - as it’s value to you has everything to do with what kind of work you expect to do. ? If you plan on doing a lot of crosscut miters for things like mitered face frames, picture frames, mitered window/door frames, mitered raised panel doors, the precision miter guide option might be very valuable to you - especially if you’re working from dimensioned drawings where you know the precise length of the part you’re trying to miter. ? ?If you’re planning to do a lot of smaller (under ~36”) picture frames or mitered raised panel doors or other similar joinery, you might actually be better off with the DGL or EGL. ? In my own workflow, I have observed that when I want to angle the crosscut fence, 95 percent of the time I either want 45-degrees or some other angle which the precision miter guide doesn’t index, and I find the peg that extends below the crosscut fence a total pain in the ass to index to the slots on the precision miter guide, so I removed the peg. ? I can consistently position the crosscut fence at 45-degrees using the markings on the the top of the crossbar. ? My crosscut fence is twice the weight of what yours will be (because it’s digital), and that has an influence on my frustration level with the indexing system as well. ? I also have the benefit of owning an EGL, so if I’m going to be doing a lot of mitering work, cutting to known lengths, I’ll drop on the EGL. ?
I too would be interested to hear from other K/KF700 owners with precision miter guide just how often they use/need it and if they find it cumbersome to use. ??
One other word of caution. ? If you plan to use the shaper much, you’ll want a power feeder. ? Such power feeder would mount on the tilt-away bracket that attaches to the back edge of the cast iron top of the machine. ? You can order the bracket later when you get the feeder. ? However, as recently as 3 years ago, the tilt away bracket could not be used in conjunction with the 1500 outrigger because the telescoping support arm for the outrigger table would bind on the inverted power feeder. ? This may have changed - I don’t know, but you should know, and if it’s true, and you expect to use a power feeder, you would be better off with the 1300 outrigger.
David Best ??
So I'm working on finalizing my order for a KF700 S Pro with a 10 foot slider and the 1500mm outrigger.? I've gotten some excellent advice from David Best.? David noted that in his experience the precision miter attachment is fussy to use and not worth the hassle.? I'm curious whether anyone else has an opinion.? Does anyone who has one like theirs??? Why?? Why not?
David also noted that on his KF700 (back in the day before he upgraded) that the mechanical scoring system required the main blade to be fully elevated to use it.? Is this still the case?? Is it different on the electric scoring unit?? I've asked my the rep at Felder, but she doesn't seem to really know the equipment.
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
Newman Lake, WA
|
David P. Best