Thank You Lucky, This help from you is so much value to me as I try to finalize my machine.
at first I was not going to get the outriger cart but I think I am. I plan to do a lot of straight linnig with the shoe as i am milling my own trees and have bark edges, I Thought just walking arout the out rigger was ok but now i m thinking different.
now? I thought I saw an optio where where you could park the out rigger behind the saw where a power feed would be but I cant remember if that was a Felder or one of the 1000 other machines I looked at.
Glen
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-----Original Message-----
From: David Luckensmeyer dhluckens@... [felder-woodworking]
To: felder-woodworking
Sent: Sun, Dec 4, 2016 1:56 pm
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
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Glen:
David references me with regard to the x-roll outrigger, so I thought I would add my vote for that option. It is exceptionally desirable and I love that feature.
I¡¯m perhaps a little stronger than average, and I can say that the Kappa 400 crosscut fence, with 3 x DRO stops is very heavy. It is too heavy to remove and install easily and regularly. I have the outrigger cart, and although it is possible to get the outrigger and the fence onto the cart, the result is so heavy and ungainly that I wouldn¡¯t do that (I did it once!). Instead, when I take the outrigger off, I grab a blanket, take the crosscut fence off (which is quite easy except for the weight), and lay it on the floor. Better would be to have a dedicated spot on the wall for it. I then remove the outrigger and store on the cart.
Incidentally, I love the DRO system on the crosscut fence so much that I use the Kappa 400 exclusively with the outrigger installed. The only reason I take off the fence is to eek out a little more length for straight-line rips on the slider.
Back to the x-roll outrigger option. In order to change the angle on the crosscut fence, I need to loosen the fence at the pivot point on the slider end of the fence. As you all likely know, this simply involves loosening a knob underneath the outrigger. I then loosen a locking knob on the little x-roll table built into the outrigger, and physically push the fence to the desired angle. To be clear, there is a second ¡°pivot¡± point in the little x-roll table on which the fence rides. Since the table moves (parallel to the main x-roll sliding table), I can move the fence through any angle up to 46 degrees, as the little x-roll table slides with?the fence. Once I¡¯m at the desired position, I simply lock the fence and go for it.
Three more points:?
The x-roll table on the outrigger has a fine adjustment knob which is keyed into the x-roll table such that I can dial in the precise angle I want. I could use the adjustment knob to move the fence from 90 degrees to the target angle, but I find the best procedure is to push the fence in gross movements so that I¡¯m close, and then grab the adjustment knob and go for those last few tenths of a degree.
How do I dial in for those last few tenths of a degree? Well, when you option the x-roll outrigger, you get a digital readout for the angle. I love that! My mitres now look pretty good since I can specify 45.3 degrees, to make sure the joint is closed on the outside.
I did not get the automatic length compensation feature for my crosscut fence on the outrigger. It is a nice feature and would be wonderful if I were cutting mitres all the time. In reality, I very rarely cut mitres, and when I do I just sneak up on the length of cut like everyone else. I don¡¯t regret not having the compensation feature.
Lucky
Glen,
The outrigger table options are indeed confusing. ? Let me try to clarify:
The 1300 and 1500 outrigger tables are basically the same except 1300 is 200mm less wide and only works on sliding tables 8-feet long or shorter. ? Sliding tables longer than 98-inches require the 1500 outrigger (the support arm under the table that supports it throughout the travel of the sliding table must extend further, and is thus longer, and so is the table above it to match). ? I don¡¯t believe Felder offers the 1300 outrigger table on the Kappa 400 (they do on the 700-series) if you get one of the shorter sliding tables.
There is a third outrigger table called the ¡°X-Roll¡± outrigger( option 161) - talk about creating confusion with that name !!! ? ?Anyway, the X-Roll outrigger has a roller-bearing actuated small table that supports the crosscut fence on the outrigger table, and makes it much easer to reposition the fence for angled cuts. ? The digital crosscut fence is about twice as heavy as the analog version, and if you load it up with a digital telescoping extension, it ends up about 50 pounds total. ? Trying to man-handle that fence into the precision miter guide indexing system is a real chore and you can easily damage that index system if you¡¯re not careful. ? So they came up with the X-Roll outrigger table to address this, which has it¡¯s own digital readout of the fence angle built in. ? You can also provision that X-Roll table with a radio transmitter system so it talks to the digital crosscut stops and they cooperate in computing the true position of the stop from the blade when the fence is not at 90-degrees. ? ?The X-Roll outrigger unit even has a hand crank for precise positioning of the angle. ? I don¡¯t have the X-Roll outrigger table (wish I did) but David Luckensmeyer does. ? Look at the photo in the following link and you¡¯ll see the X-Roll outrigger table element directly under the crosscut stop - it moves just like the sliding table, but of course is miniature in comparison - you¡¯ll also see the digital readout for the angle of the crosscut fence in the box between the crosscut stop and the sliding table:?
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As for the crosscut fences, what I posted just prior to this for Michael applies to the Kappa 400, although there are additional option numbers relating to the radio compensation system on the X-Roll outrigger. ?Any of the crosscut fences can be put on any of the outrigger tables, although typically the X-Roll outrigger table
As for digital crosscut stops, I¡¯ll add the following. ? The standard digital crosscut stop has the flipper on the left - which means the closest it will go to the blade is just over 8 inches. ? If you want a digital crosscut stop that gets closer to the saw blade, you have to ADD (not substitute) an additional crosscut stop which is Felder part number 604-118. ? That stop has the flipper on the right and will position down to about 3-inches from the blade. ?The digital crosscut stop on the telescoping extension is dedicated to the extension and can not be positioned below 74-inches. ? On the non-digital crosscut fences, the analog crosscut stops can be used on the main part of the fence, or positioned on the telescoping extension - this is not the case with the digital stops. ? More info on the digital stops is here - including a document on how to calibrate them: ??
Sing out if you have more questions.
David Best
Hi David
So I haven't said anything lately, I have just been read your and everyone else s posts and I have gathered a wealth of information.
I have looked at some of the other stuff you have mentioned and I think I am set on the kappa 400 x. I have spent many hours looking at this saw and I have to say i understand it pretty well except for the options on the outrigger table. This messages helps but I still cant quite figure it out.? Looking at the pictures of your saw i think we have the same set up but im not exactly sure. Looking at the book there seems to be three variations of the outrigger. I wish you were my Felder Rep it would make it much easier for me to figure this all out.
Glen ??
-----Original Message----- From: 'david@bestservices IMAP 2' ?david@...?[felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> To: felder-woodworking < felder-woodworking@...> Sent: Sat, Dec 3, 2016 8:36 pm Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
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Michael,
Let me clarify a few things. ? I assume you are considering mechanical scoring because of your off-the-grid power consumption limits. ? If you have the power for electronic scoring (it¡¯s a separate motor), and don¡¯t mind spending the additional for it, then it¡¯s clearly a better choice - even if you don¡¯t use scoring a lot, it will enhance the resale value appreciably. ??
There is absolutely no excuse that your Felder sales rep can¡¯t or won't research the answer to your question about the KF700 mechanical scoring. ? Call Fergus Cook at the Felder Sacramento office and ask him to clarify the mechanical scoring option operation. ?If you don¡¯t get satisfaction from Fergus, let me know and I¡¯ll text Hansj?rg Felder directly. ? You¡¯re about to drop coin equivalent to a new Benz - you should be able to get answers and your sales rep should be willing to do the homework to satisfy your questions before you buy. ? PERIOD.
On the subject of Precision Miter Guide, let me clarify - as it¡¯s value to you has everything to do with what kind of work you expect to do. ? If you plan on doing a lot of crosscut miters for things like mitered face frames, picture frames, mitered window/door frames, mitered raised panel doors, the precision miter guide option might be very valuable to you - especially if you¡¯re working from dimensioned drawings where you know the precise length of the part you¡¯re trying to miter. ? ?If you¡¯re planning to do a lot of smaller (under ~36¡±) picture frames or mitered raised panel doors or other similar joinery, you might actually be better off with the DGL or EGL. ? In my own workflow, I have observed that when I want to angle the crosscut fence, 95 percent of the time I either want 45-degrees or some other angle which the precision miter guide doesn¡¯t index, and I find the peg that extends below the crosscut fence a total pain in the ass to index to the slots on the precision miter guide, so I removed the peg. ? I can consistently position the crosscut fence at 45-degrees using the markings on the the top of the crossbar. ? My crosscut fence is twice the weight of what yours will be (because it¡¯s digital), and that has an influence on my frustration level with the indexing system as well. ? I also have the benefit of owning an EGL, so if I¡¯m going to be doing a lot of mitering work, cutting to known lengths, I¡¯ll drop on the EGL. ?
I too would be interested to hear from other K/KF700 owners with precision miter guide just how often they use/need it and if they find it cumbersome to use. ??
One other word of caution. ? If you plan to use the shaper much, you¡¯ll want a power feeder. ? Such power feeder would mount on the tilt-away bracket that attaches to the back edge of the cast iron top of the machine. ? You can order the bracket later when you get the feeder. ? However, as recently as 3 years ago, the tilt away bracket could not be used in conjunction with the 1500 outrigger because the telescoping support arm for the outrigger table would bind on the inverted power feeder. ? This may have changed - I don¡¯t know, but you should know, and if it¡¯s true, and you expect to use a power feeder, you would be better off with the 1300 outrigger.
David Best
??
So I'm working on finalizing my order for a KF700 S Pro with a 10 foot slider and the 1500mm outrigger.? I've gotten some excellent advice from David Best.? David noted that in his experience the precision miter attachment is fussy to use and not worth the hassle.? I'm curious whether anyone else has an opinion.? Does anyone who has one like theirs??? Why?? Why not?
David also noted that on his KF700 (back in the day before he upgraded) that the mechanical scoring system required the main blade to be fully elevated to use it.? Is this still the case?? Is it different on the electric scoring unit?? I've asked my the rep at Felder, but she doesn't seem to really know the equipment.
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Michael Garrison Stuber
Newman Lake, WA
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