|
Interesting.听 The Felder configurator won't let you pick the digital cross cut option (#171) if you pick the precision miter option with length compensation (#173):
170
Precision miter unit with pin locating system for outrigger table crosscut fence O
173
Precision mitre guide with cutting length compensation for 1300/1500 outrigger O
171
Digital flip stop 74鈥� (1900 mm), 1 digital flip stop, extendable to 126鈥� (3200 mm) for outrigger 1500 O
It looks like you can still get the "pin" option though (#170).
James, which one do you have?
The 173 (http://maschinen.felder-gruppe.at/uploads/machinedetails/ee86e9abb0fab0c09c26960b5a54fed4258785f8.jpg)
or the 171 (http://maschinen.felder-gruppe.at/uploads/machinedetails/dd42bba348c336a77533ff40f390f5e359604be3.jpg)
|
I believe that鈥檚 a bug in the web site, although it could be peculiar to the KF700. 听 You can get the Precision Indexing System with digital fence on the Kappa 400 - I have it. 听 The pin-shot miter system (170) is not accurate and just makes it harder to position the fence. 听 Don鈥檛 go there.
David Best
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Interesting.听 The Felder configurator won't let you pick the digital cross cut option (#171) if you pick the precision miter option with length compensation (#173):
170 Precision miter unit with pin locating system for outrigger table crosscut fence听O 173 Precision mitre guide with cutting length compensation for 1300/1500 outrigger听O 171 Digital flip stop 74鈥� (1900 mm), 1 digital flip stop, extendable to 126鈥� (3200 mm) for outrigger 1500听O
It looks like you can still get the "pin" option though (#170).
James, which one do you have?
The 173 ()
or the 171 ()
|
David,
A couple of points.
I have a 2008 KF700SP with 1500 outrigger, F38 power feeder and tilt away bracket.听 Due to space constraints I only mount the outrigger when I need it, but I haven't been aware of any conflict with the power feeder.听 I've checked the 2008 catalogue and haven't spotted any warning to that effect.听 I do, however, struggle with the power feeder tilt away for other reasons.听 For me, it's heavy.听 (I must investigate adding an assistance strut.)听 Also, again due to other space constraints around the machine, I have to find a sweet spot for positioning the power feeder before lowering it.
You say " You鈥檙e about to drop coin equivalent to a new Benz".听 As the owner of products from each of these manufacturers, I must protest this comparison on behalf of Felder!听 I don't mind paying a quality price for a quality product, but object when I think I'm only getting the wrong half of that deal.听 Since buying my KF700 I've made two other, for me, pricey purchases from Felder, but I doubt I'll ever buy another Mercedes.
Julie
From: "'david@bestservices IMAP 2' david@... [felder-woodworking]"
To: felder-woodworking@...
Sent: Sunday, 4 December 2016, 4:36
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
听
Michael,
Let me clarify a few things. 听 I assume you are considering mechanical scoring because of your off-the-grid power consumption limits. 听 If you have the power for electronic scoring (it鈥檚 a separate motor), and don鈥檛 mind spending the additional for it, then it鈥檚 clearly a better choice - even if you don鈥檛 use scoring a lot, it will enhance the resale value appreciably. 听听
There is absolutely no excuse that your Felder sales rep can鈥檛 or won't research the answer to your question about the KF700 mechanical scoring. 听 Call Fergus Cook at the Felder Sacramento office and ask him to clarify the mechanical scoring option operation. 听If you don鈥檛 get satisfaction from Fergus, let me know and I鈥檒l text Hansj枚rg Felder directly. 听 You鈥檙e about to drop coin equivalent to a new Benz - you should be able to get answers and your sales rep should be willing to do the homework to satisfy your questions before you buy. 听 PERIOD.
On the subject of Precision Miter Guide, let me clarify - as it鈥檚 value to you has everything to do with what kind of work you expect to do. 听 If you plan on doing a lot of crosscut miters for things like mitered face frames, picture frames, mitered window/door frames, mitered raised panel doors, the precision miter guide option might be very valuable to you - especially if you鈥檙e working from dimensioned drawings where you know the precise length of the part you鈥檙e trying to miter. 听 听If you鈥檙e planning to do a lot of smaller (under ~36鈥�) picture frames or mitered raised panel doors or other similar joinery, you might actually be better off with the DGL or EGL. 听 In my own workflow, I have observed that when I want to angle the crosscut fence, 95 percent of the time I either want 45-degrees or some other angle which the precision miter guide doesn鈥檛 index, and I find the peg that extends below the crosscut fence a total pain in the ass to index to the slots on the precision miter guide, so I removed the peg. 听 I can consistently position the crosscut fence at 45-degrees using the markings on the the top of the crossbar. 听 My crosscut fence is twice the weight of what yours will be (because it鈥檚 digital), and that has an influence on my frustration level with the indexing system as well. 听 I also have the benefit of owning an EGL, so if I鈥檓 going to be doing a lot of mitering work, cutting to known lengths, I鈥檒l drop on the EGL. 听
I too would be interested to hear from other K/KF700 owners with precision miter guide just how often they use/need it and if they find it cumbersome to use. 听听
One other word of caution. 听 If you plan to use the shaper much, you鈥檒l want a power feeder. 听 Such power feeder would mount on the tilt-away bracket that attaches to the back edge of the cast iron top of the machine. 听 You can order the bracket later when you get the feeder. 听 However, as recently as 3 years ago, the tilt away bracket could not be used in conjunction with the 1500 outrigger because the telescoping support arm for the outrigger table would bind on the inverted power feeder. 听 This may have changed - I don鈥檛 know, but you should know, and if it鈥檚 true, and you expect to use a power feeder, you would be better off with the 1300 outrigger.
David Best 听听
So I'm working on finalizing my order for a KF700 S Pro with a 10 foot slider and the 1500mm outrigger.听 I've gotten some excellent advice from David Best.听 David noted that in his experience the precision miter attachment is fussy to use and not worth the hassle.听 I'm curious whether anyone else has an opinion.听 Does anyone who has one like theirs?听听 Why?听 Why not?
David also noted that on his KF700 (back in the day before he upgraded) that the mechanical scoring system required the main blade to be fully elevated to use it.听 Is this still the case?听 Is it different on the electric scoring unit?听 I've asked my the rep at Felder, but she doesn't seem to really know the equipment.
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
Newman Lake, WA
|
Hi Julie, nice to read your note, and thanks for the clarification. 听 So I went to my stash of catalogs from Felder (the most recent one I have is 2012) - beginning to wonder if I鈥檇 lost my mind. 听 In the section on the KF700, in the configurator, there is option 212 listed which reads 鈥淭ilting bracket for power feeder (with standard models this is not possible with a 1300mm outrigger table).鈥� 听 听So I did have it wrong, the exception (back then?) applied to the 1300mm outrigger table not the 1500, and I apologize for stirring up this controversy. 听 But I am comforted that I haven鈥檛 lost my mind completely, there was some kind of mechanical interference, I just remembered wrong. 听 听I'm not loosing my mind after all. 听 You鈥檇 tell me if I were - right? 听 Now that we鈥檙e in the 鈥減ost truth鈥� era here in the USA, everything is suspect. 听 What a bewildering time - I was expecting Alzheimer's to set in and instead I get 鈥減ost truth era." 听 How鈥檚 Brexit working out for ya on your side of the pond? 听:-)
As for the Benz reference, you鈥檙e completely right, and I鈥檒l quote Colonel Pickering speaking to Henry Higgins: 听鈥淐ome sir, perhaps you鈥檝e picked a bad example.鈥� 听 I鈥檓 no longer a Benz fan either - most expensive maintenance headache ever. 听 Perhaps Bentley would have been a fairer comparison. 听:-)
David Best
PS: 听 When I had a KF700 with tilt-away bracket, I found it really helped the rotational effort to put the feeder in a position where the center of gravity was most neutral. 听 This is the position I found worked best - you鈥檝e probably already discovered this, but for those who haven鈥檛:听
I see now that Felder offers a gas strut assisted feeder bracket. 听 They ripped that design off a FOG member. 听 Shame !
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
David,
A couple of points.
I have a 2008 KF700SP with 1500 outrigger, F38 power feeder and tilt away bracket.听 Due to space constraints I only mount the outrigger when I need it, but I haven't been aware of any conflict with the power feeder.听 I've checked the 2008 catalogue and haven't spotted any warning to that effect.听 I do, however, struggle with the power feeder tilt away for other reasons.听 For me, it's heavy.听 (I must investigate adding an assistance strut.)听 Also, again due to other space constraints around the machine, I have to find a sweet spot for positioning the power feeder before lowering it.
You say " You鈥檙e about to drop coin equivalent to a new Benz".听 As the owner of products from each of these manufacturers, I must protest this comparison on behalf of Felder!听 I don't mind paying a quality price for a quality product, but object when I think I'm only getting the wrong half of that deal.听 Since buying my KF700 I've made two other, for me, pricey purchases from Felder, but I doubt I'll ever buy another Mercedes.
Julie
听Michael,
Let me clarify a few things. 听 I assume you are considering mechanical scoring because of your off-the-grid power consumption limits. 听 If you have the power for electronic scoring (it鈥檚 a separate motor), and don鈥檛 mind spending the additional for it, then it鈥檚 clearly a better choice - even if you don鈥檛 use scoring a lot, it will enhance the resale value appreciably. 听听
There is absolutely no excuse that your Felder sales rep can鈥檛 or won't research the answer to your question about the KF700 mechanical scoring. 听 Call Fergus Cook at the Felder Sacramento office and ask him to clarify the mechanical scoring option operation. 听If you don鈥檛 get satisfaction from Fergus, let me know and I鈥檒l text Hansj枚rg Felder directly. 听 You鈥檙e about to drop coin equivalent to a new Benz - you should be able to get answers and your sales rep should be willing to do the homework to satisfy your questions before you buy. 听 PERIOD.
On the subject of Precision Miter Guide, let me clarify - as it鈥檚 value to you has everything to do with what kind of work you expect to do. 听 If you plan on doing a lot of crosscut miters for things like mitered face frames, picture frames, mitered window/door frames, mitered raised panel doors, the precision miter guide option might be very valuable to you - especially if you鈥檙e working from dimensioned drawings where you know the precise length of the part you鈥檙e trying to miter. 听 听If you鈥檙e planning to do a lot of smaller (under ~36鈥�) picture frames or mitered raised panel doors or other similar joinery, you might actually be better off with the DGL or EGL. 听 In my own workflow, I have observed that when I want to angle the crosscut fence, 95 percent of the time I either want 45-degrees or some other angle which the precision miter guide doesn鈥檛 index, and I find the peg that extends below the crosscut fence a total pain in the ass to index to the slots on the precision miter guide, so I removed the peg. 听 I can consistently position the crosscut fence at 45-degrees using the markings on the the top of the crossbar. 听 My crosscut fence is twice the weight of what yours will be (because it鈥檚 digital), and that has an influence on my frustration level with the indexing system as well. 听 I also have the benefit of owning an EGL, so if I鈥檓 going to be doing a lot of mitering work, cutting to known lengths, I鈥檒l drop on the EGL. 听
I too would be interested to hear from other K/KF700 owners with precision miter guide just how often they use/need it and if they find it cumbersome to use. 听听
One other word of caution. 听 If you plan to use the shaper much, you鈥檒l want a power feeder. 听 Such power feeder would mount on the tilt-away bracket that attaches to the back edge of the cast iron top of the machine. 听 You can order the bracket later when you get the feeder. 听 However, as recently as 3 years ago, the tilt away bracket could not be used in conjunction with the 1500 outrigger because the telescoping support arm for the outrigger table would bind on the inverted power feeder. 听 This may have changed - I don鈥檛 know, but you should know, and if it鈥檚 true, and you expect to use a power feeder, you would be better off with the 1300 outrigger.
David Best 听听
So I'm working on finalizing my order for a KF700 S Pro with a 10 foot slider and the 1500mm outrigger.听 I've gotten some excellent advice from David Best.听 David noted that in his experience the precision miter attachment is fussy to use and not worth the hassle.听 I'm curious whether anyone else has an opinion.听 Does anyone who has one like theirs?听听 Why?听 Why not?
David also noted that on his KF700 (back in the day before he upgraded) that the mechanical scoring system required the main blade to be fully elevated to use it.听 Is this still the case?听 Is it different on the electric scoring unit?听 I've asked my the rep at Felder, but she doesn't seem to really know the equipment.
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
Newman Lake, WA
|
A note about the short crosscut fence and use on the 1300 outrigger table: 听the short fence is not long enough to contact the reference stop on the outrigger table. 听I had planned on using the short fence on the 1300 outrigger on my Profile 45 to save space but it does not work.
Joe in New Orleans听
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Dec 3, 2016, at 11:02 PM, James Zhu james.zhu2@... [felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
听
Yes, check David Best's album听
On the heavy crosscut fence, you could have 3 DRO. The standard one with the stop on the left, then the one with stop on the right (), also one on end of the telescoping fence.听
You can also have DRO on the table-saw style rip fence,听
Yes, I removed the telescoping portion of the crosscut fence on the outrigger table. I did not order the short crosscut fence, I wish I had bought it, since moving the heavy crosscut fence to front/rear position is not easy.
I strongly recommend DRO. At least, get one on the crosscut fence. You get repeatability and make cut so much quicker and accurate. And I believe it is lot more expensive to get DRO after the purchase. This was the reason David Best sold his K975 slider and bought Kappa 400.
James
|
Felder is no where near Bentley. A few years ago I got an Audi A8L, pretty decked out and felt pretty special. Parked it in a ramp for a Badger game ( only ramp it ever saw ) and thought I had the coolest car there. Came back out to find a new Flying Spur, black like mine, right next to it. Not even close. Totally deflating. I've got an S550 now and waiting for a Bentley to show up and make me look bad. Which it will. Dave
________________________________
From: felder-woodworking@... <felder-woodworking@...> on behalf of 'david@bestservices IMAP 2' david@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 5:03 AM
To: felder-woodworking@...
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
Hi Julie, nice to read your note, and thanks for the clarification. So I went to my stash of catalogs from Felder (the most recent one I have is 2012) - beginning to wonder if I抎 lost my mind. In the section on the KF700, in the configurator, there is option 212 listed which reads 揟ilting bracket for power feeder (with standard models this is not possible with a 1300mm outrigger table).� So I did have it wrong, the exception (back then?) applied to the 1300mm outrigger table not the 1500, and I apologize for stirring up this controversy. But I am comforted that I haven抰 lost my mind completely, there was some kind of mechanical interference, I just remembered wrong. I'm not loosing my mind after all. You抎 tell me if I were - right? Now that we抮e in the 損ost truth� era here in the USA, everything is suspect. What a bewildering time - I was expecting Alzheimer's to set in and instead I get 損ost truth era." How抯 Brexit working out for ya on your side of the pond? :-)
As for the Benz reference, you抮e completely right, and I抣l quote Colonel Pickering speaking to Henry Higgins: 揅ome sir, perhaps you抳e picked a bad example.� I抦 no longer a Benz fan either - most expensive maintenance headache ever. Perhaps Bentley would have been a fairer comparison. :-)
David Best
PS: When I had a KF700 with tilt-away bracket, I found it really helped the rotational effort to put the feeder in a position where the center of gravity was most neutral. This is the position I found worked best - you抳e probably already discovered this, but for those who haven抰:
I see now that Felder offers a gas strut assisted feeder bracket. They ripped that design off a FOG member. Shame !
[cid:907A3C1A-C2C6-44D1-BD23-55AE8C463967]
On Dec 3, 2016, at 11:58 PM, JULIE DENNING julie.denning1@...<mailto:julie.denning1@...> [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...<mailto:felder-woodworking@...>> wrote:
David,
A couple of points.
I have a 2008 KF700SP with 1500 outrigger, F38 power feeder and tilt away bracket. Due to space constraints I only mount the outrigger when I need it, but I haven't been aware of any conflict with the power feeder. I've checked the 2008 catalogue and haven't spotted any warning to that effect. I do, however, struggle with the power feeder tilt away for other reasons. For me, it's heavy. (I must investigate adding an assistance strut.) Also, again due to other space constraints around the machine, I have to find a sweet spot for positioning the power feeder before lowering it.
You say " You抮e about to drop coin equivalent to a new Benz". As the owner of products from each of these manufacturers, I must protest this comparison on behalf of Felder! I don't mind paying a quality price for a quality product, but object when I think I'm only getting the wrong half of that deal. Since buying my KF700 I've made two other, for me, pricey purchases from Felder, but I doubt I'll ever buy another Mercedes.
Julie
________________________________
From: "'david@bestservices IMAP 2' david@...<mailto:david@...> [felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@...<mailto:felder-woodworking@...>>
To: felder-woodworking@...<mailto:felder-woodworking@...>
Sent: Sunday, 4 December 2016, 4:36
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
Michael,
Let me clarify a few things. I assume you are considering mechanical scoring because of your off-the-grid power consumption limits. If you have the power for electronic scoring (it抯 a separate motor), and don抰 mind spending the additional for it, then it抯 clearly a better choice - even if you don抰 use scoring a lot, it will enhance the resale value appreciably.
There is absolutely no excuse that your Felder sales rep can抰 or won't research the answer to your question about the KF700 mechanical scoring. Call Fergus Cook at the Felder Sacramento office and ask him to clarify the mechanical scoring option operation. If you don抰 get satisfaction from Fergus, let me know and I抣l text Hansj鰎g Felder directly. You抮e about to drop coin equivalent to a new Benz - you should be able to get answers and your sales rep should be willing to do the homework to satisfy your questions before you buy. PERIOD.
On the subject of Precision Miter Guide, let me clarify - as it抯 value to you has everything to do with what kind of work you expect to do. If you plan on doing a lot of crosscut miters for things like mitered face frames, picture frames, mitered window/door frames, mitered raised panel doors, the precision miter guide option might be very valuable to you - especially if you抮e working from dimensioned drawings where you know the precise length of the part you抮e trying to miter. If you抮e planning to do a lot of smaller (under ~36�) picture frames or mitered raised panel doors or other similar joinery, you might actually be better off with the DGL or EGL. In my own workflow, I have observed that when I want to angle the crosscut fence, 95 percent of the time I either want 45-degrees or some other angle which the precision miter guide doesn抰 index, and I find the peg that extends below the crosscut fence a total pain in the ass to index to the slots on the precision miter guide, so I removed the peg. I can consistently position the crosscut fence at 45-degrees using the markings on the the top of the crossbar. My crosscut fence is twice the weight of what yours will be (because it抯 digital), and that has an influence on my frustration level with the indexing system as well. I also have the benefit of owning an EGL, so if I抦 going to be doing a lot of mitering work, cutting to known lengths, I抣l drop on the EGL.
I too would be interested to hear from other K/KF700 owners with precision miter guide just how often they use/need it and if they find it cumbersome to use.
One other word of caution. If you plan to use the shaper much, you抣l want a power feeder. Such power feeder would mount on the tilt-away bracket that attaches to the back edge of the cast iron top of the machine. You can order the bracket later when you get the feeder. However, as recently as 3 years ago, the tilt away bracket could not be used in conjunction with the 1500 outrigger because the telescoping support arm for the outrigger table would bind on the inverted power feeder. This may have changed - I don抰 know, but you should know, and if it抯 true, and you expect to use a power feeder, you would be better off with the 1300 outrigger.
David Best
On Dec 3, 2016, at 6:18 PM, garrisonstuber@...<mailto:garrisonstuber@...> [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...<mailto:felder-woodworking@...>> wrote:
So I'm working on finalizing my order for a KF700 S Pro with a 10 foot slider and the 1500mm outrigger. I've gotten some excellent advice from David Best. David noted that in his experience the precision miter attachment is fussy to use and not worth the hassle. I'm curious whether anyone else has an opinion. Does anyone who has one like theirs? Why? Why not?
David also noted that on his KF700 (back in the day before he upgraded) that the mechanical scoring system required the main blade to be fully elevated to use it. Is this still the case? Is it different on the electric scoring unit? I've asked my the rep at Felder, but she doesn't seem to really know the equipment.
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
Newman Lake, WA
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
If you mainly cut sheet goods, and need to cut miter or another angle, then precision miter attachment is what you need, cause EGL or DGL has length limit.
Yes, you can easily switch between metric and imperial. I already switch to metric, much easy and makes life simple.
James
From: garrisonstuber@... [felder-woodworking] Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 1:00 AM To: felder-woodworking@... Reply To: felder-woodworking@... Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit |
听
Thanks James, and thank you for the numbers on the scoring motor as well.听 I'm still not sure how much cross cutting I'm going to do on this machine, other than panels.听 I get spot on repeatable cross cuts with my collection well tuned vintage DeWalt radial saws.听 The only problem is that slicing up a 4x8 sheet on them sucks.听 With the right blade (negative hook) and adjustments you can safely rip, but it's awkward and the dust collection is abysmal.听 My primary focus for this machine will be sheet goods, ripping (though I do a lot of that on my bandsaw), and shaping. That said, the DROs may still be very useful for setting up for sheet goods.
I assume that the DRO will happily switch between standard and metric?听 I plan on going with a metric machine.听 (I have largely switched to metric in my woodworking.)
|
I have precision miter with length compensation.听
James
From: garrisonstuber@... [felder-woodworking] Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 1:16 AM To: felder-woodworking@... Reply To: felder-woodworking@... Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit |
听
Interesting.听 The Felder configurator won't let you pick the digital cross cut option (#171) if you pick the precision miter option with length compensation (#173):
170
Precision miter unit with pin locating system for outrigger table crosscut fence O
173
Precision mitre guide with cutting length compensation for 1300/1500 outrigger O
171
Digital flip stop 74鈥� (1900 mm), 1 digital flip stop, extendable to 126鈥� (3200 mm) for outrigger 1500 O
It looks like you can still get the "pin" option though (#170).
James, which one do you have?
The 173 (http://maschinen.felder-gruppe.at/uploads/machinedetails/ee86e9abb0fab0c09c26960b5a54fed4258785f8.jpg)
or the 171 (http://maschinen.felder-gruppe.at/uploads/machinedetails/dd42bba348c336a77533ff40f390f5e359604be3.jpg)
|
I used to be听really into German cars. I owned听Mostly BMW but also one Audi and one Mercedes. This was ten years ago now. I owned six BMW's in that time all the way from a 318i to a Near new M3.
By far the Mercedes was the biggest piece of crap car i ever owned. For point of refernce i now own a Nissan Frontier and althought the trim is plastic it is a very reliable and well built vehicle.听听
Bellow every surface of that Mercedes was plastic. From a engineering perspective the car handled like crap also. If听you know anything about cars and put your head under the hood you would quickly understand why! Everything was bottom of th barrel.听Now this was a C class but still a Mercedes non the less. I had a Jetta that was by far superior with regard to quality of build regarding both engineeiring and fit and finish.
I would say Felder is like a nice VW imop... Maybe mid range A4?
听
On Sunday, December 4, 2016, James Zhu james.zhu2@... [felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
听
I have precision miter with length compensation.听
James
Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 1:16 AM Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit |
听
Interesting.听 The Felder configurator won't let you pick the digital cross cut option (#171) if you pick the precision miter option with length compensation (#173):
170
Precision miter unit with pin locating system for outrigger table crosscut fence O
173
Precision mitre guide with cutting length compensation for 1300/1500 outrigger O
171
Digital flip stop 74鈥� (1900 mm), 1 digital flip stop, extendable to 126鈥� (3200 mm) for outrigger 1500 O
It looks like you can still get the "pin" option though (#170).
James, which one do you have?
The 173 ()
or the 171 ()
|
I agree that the low end Mercedes is not what I'd spend for.听 I don't use or like half the electronics on any of them and am strictly a buy the large sedan I like to drive the best- and what can be found that is 2 years old, tricked out and under 5K in miles.听
I've had most all of them and like every machine I've owned, it could be better.听 Dave
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: felder-woodworking@... on behalf of patrick walsh pwalsh651@... [felder-woodworking]
Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 10:52 AM
To: felder-woodworking@...
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
听
听
I used to be听really into German cars. I owned听Mostly BMW but also one Audi and one Mercedes. This was ten years ago now. I owned six BMW's in that time all the way from a 318i to a Near new M3.
By far the Mercedes was the biggest piece of crap car i ever owned. For point of refernce i now own a Nissan Frontier and althought the trim is plastic it is a very reliable and well built vehicle.听听
Bellow every surface of that Mercedes was plastic. From a engineering perspective the car handled like crap also. If听you know anything about cars and put your head under the hood you would quickly understand why! Everything was bottom of th barrel.听Now
this was a C class but still a Mercedes non the less. I had a Jetta that was by far superior with regard to quality of build regarding both engineeiring and fit and finish.
I would say Felder is like a nice VW imop... Maybe mid range A4?
听
On Sunday, December 4, 2016, James Zhu james.zhu2@... [felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
听
I have precision miter with length compensation.听
James
Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 1:16 AM
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
|
听
Interesting.听 The Felder configurator won't let you pick the digital cross cut option (#171) if you pick the precision miter option with length compensation (#173):
170 Precision miter unit with pin locating system for outrigger table crosscut fence O 173 Precision mitre guide with cutting length compensation for 1300/1500 outrigger
O 171 Digital flip stop 74鈥� (1900 mm), 1 digital flip stop, extendable to 126鈥� (3200 mm) for outrigger 1500 O
It looks like you can still get the "pin" option though (#170).
James, which one do you have?
The 173 ()
or the 171 ()
|
I figured it was the fact that I'm *not* into cars that lets me spend money on high-quality woodworking tools.听 :)
I have a buddy with a McClaren.听 Nice car, but the transmission alone costs more than my entire car.
|
The cost of restoring or modifying cars is what led me into rehabbing old machines.听 Easier and way cheaper.听 Dave
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From: felder-woodworking@... on behalf of garrisonstuber@... [felder-woodworking]
Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 12:35 PM
To: felder-woodworking@...
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
听
听
I figured it was the fact that I'm *not* into cars that lets me spend money on high-quality woodworking tools.听 :)
I have a buddy with a McClaren.听 Nice car, but the transmission alone costs more than my entire car.
|
Felders scales and angle marks are extremely accurate on the no options fences and outriggers. If you have an issue with understanding fractions or have bad eyesight then I could see a need. The digital readouts and computer controlled stuff is a bunch of fluff and extra cost just waiting to give aggravation on a sliding saw, IMHO as I have stated before. With the actual markings you always know what the measurement is not a digital screen with electronics that can go wrong without you knowing. Can it speed up operations with an operator that knows the machine and actually do math in their head, doubtful. When I set my saw to cut 23 1/4" by the good old scale it cuts 23 1/4" and I can set and reset that measurement all day and get the same exact measurement. This applies not only to short pieces but full length cuts in 5' x 10' sheets of material. Just a little food for thought from someone thats uses his equipment everyday to make a living and may not be applicable in your given situation. I like the extra budget to by really useful additions like saw blades, parallel guides and with the price of some of the options, complete machines.
Now where I do find the digital readout extremely useful is the Powerdrive option available for the shapers and J/P's. Not so hot on the digidrive, too many buttons and isn't straight forward enough.
Just so you also know the angle scale with the pin stops is available as a separate part and is really no issue to install and setup and is completely adjustable if needed. Have fun woodworking.
|
I would agree with John as long as you can see with magnification as the sacles are you will be with in a few 10 ths of a mm.听 It real comes down to being a precise builder. You can have all the fancy digital stuff and if you dont put the part in the right place and hold it correctly you will still end up with scrap.
Dro for mills and lathes in metal working, 听a no brainier when you making a fit and need to be within a few thou. In wood it moves more than that when you blow on it.听
听 martin/campshure/co/llc
mac campshure
7412 elmwood ave.
middleton, wi 53562-3106
608-332-2330 cell 608-824-0023 fax
Designing and building for 46 years
From: "John Kee jmkserv@... [felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@...>
To: FOG
Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
听
Felders scales and angle marks are extremely accurate on the no options fences and outriggers. If you have an issue with understanding fractions or have bad eyesight then I could see a need. The digital readouts and computer controlled stuff is a bunch of fluff and extra cost just waiting to give aggravation on a sliding saw, IMHO as I have stated before. With the actual markings you always know what the measurement is not a digital screen with electronics that can go wrong without you knowing. Can it speed up operations with an operator that knows the machine and actually do math in their head, doubtful. When I set my saw to cut 23 1/4" by the good old scale it cuts 23 1/4" and I can set and reset that measurement all day and get the same exact measurement. This applies not only to short pieces but full length cuts in 5' x 10' sheets of material. Just a little food for thought from someone thats uses his equipment everyday to make a living and may not be applicable in your given situation. I like the extra budget to by really useful additions like saw blades, parallel guides and with the price of some of the options, complete machines.
Now where I do find the digital readout extremely useful is the Powerdrive option available for the shapers and J/P's. Not so hot on the digidrive, too many buttons and isn't straight forward enough.
Just so you also know the angle scale with the pin stops is available as a separate part and is really no issue to install and setup and is completely adjustable if needed. Have fun woodworking.
|
There are multiple James answering this thread, but I have the 173, nothing digital on my saw, all cursor and eyeball settings. 听
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From: felder-woodworking@... [mailto:felder-woodworking@...]
Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2016 10:17 PM
To: felder-woodworking@...
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit听 听 Interesting.听 The Felder configurator won't let you pick the digital cross cut option (#171) if you pick the precision miter option with length compensation (#173):
170 Precision miter unit with pin locating system for outrigger table crosscut fence[听] O 173 Precision mitre guide with cutting length compensation for 1300/1500 outrigger[听] O 171 Digital flip stop 74鈥� (1900 mm), 1 digital flip stop, extendable to 126鈥� (3200 mm) for outrigger 1500[听] O
It looks like you can still get the "pin" option though (#170).
James, which one do you have?
The 173 ()
or the 171 ()
|
After my last post i though i should had mentioned i have never driven or owned听a Mercedes Gullwing or AMG anything of that caliber. Maybe i just dont knw what i dont know?听I have been in many top of the line S500 Mercedes and always felt a 700 series BMW was a much听nicer car. I digress, i should finish my original听thought.听I听have alao never听seen a听Kapa 500 or Format anything in person. So听in all fairness maybe my comparison is not up to snuff.
I have always felt though that for the same money spent on a Mercedes you could get a much more refined machine in a BMW. Again things change and maybe in the last ten years the scales have tipped out of the favor of BMW.
Anyway this is not what this thread is about. I suppose i just wish to own a slider period ;)
听
There are multiple James answering this thread, but I have the 173, nothing digital on my saw, all cursor and eyeball settings. 听 听 听 Interesting.听 The Felder configurator won't let you pick the digital cross cut option (#171) if you pick the precision miter option with length compensation (#173):
170 Precision miter unit with pin locating system for outrigger table crosscut fence[听] O 173 Precision mitre guide with cutting length compensation for 1300/1500 outrigger[听] O 171 Digital flip stop 74鈥� (1900 mm), 1 digital flip stop, extendable to 126鈥� (3200 mm) for outrigger 1500[听] O
It looks like you can still get the "pin" option though (#170).
James, which one do you have?
The 173 ()
or the 171 ()
|
Glen:
David references me with regard to the x-roll outrigger, so I thought I would add my vote for that option. It is exceptionally desirable and I love that feature.
I鈥檓 perhaps a little stronger than average, and I can say that the Kappa 400 crosscut fence, with 3 x DRO stops is very heavy. It is too heavy to remove and install easily and regularly. I have the outrigger cart, and although it is possible to get the outrigger and the fence onto the cart, the result is so heavy and ungainly that I wouldn鈥檛 do that (I did it once!). Instead, when I take the outrigger off, I grab a blanket, take the crosscut fence off (which is quite easy except for the weight), and lay it on the floor. Better would be to have a dedicated spot on the wall for it. I then remove the outrigger and store on the cart.
Incidentally, I love the DRO system on the crosscut fence so much that I use the Kappa 400 exclusively with the outrigger installed. The only reason I take off the fence is to eek out a little more length for straight-line rips on the slider.
Back to the x-roll outrigger option. In order to change the angle on the crosscut fence, I need to loosen the fence at the pivot point on the slider end of the fence. As you all likely know, this simply involves loosening a knob underneath the outrigger. I then loosen a locking knob on the little x-roll table built into the outrigger, and physically push the fence to the desired angle. To be clear, there is a second 鈥減ivot鈥� point in the little x-roll table on which the fence rides. Since the table moves (parallel to the main x-roll sliding table), I can move the fence through any angle up to 46 degrees, as the little x-roll table slides with听the fence. Once I鈥檓 at the desired position, I simply lock the fence and go for it.
Three more points:听
The x-roll table on the outrigger has a fine adjustment knob which is keyed into the x-roll table such that I can dial in the precise angle I want. I could use the adjustment knob to move the fence from 90 degrees to the target angle, but I find the best procedure is to push the fence in gross movements so that I鈥檓 close, and then grab the adjustment knob and go for those last few tenths of a degree.
How do I dial in for those last few tenths of a degree? Well, when you option the x-roll outrigger, you get a digital readout for the angle. I love that! My mitres now look pretty good since I can specify 45.3 degrees, to make sure the joint is closed on the outside.
I did not get the automatic length compensation feature for my crosscut fence on the outrigger. It is a nice feature and would be wonderful if I were cutting mitres all the time. In reality, I very rarely cut mitres, and when I do I just sneak up on the length of cut like everyone else. I don鈥檛 regret not having the compensation feature.
Lucky
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Glen,
The outrigger table options are indeed confusing. 听 Let me try to clarify:
The 1300 and 1500 outrigger tables are basically the same except 1300 is 200mm less wide and only works on sliding tables 8-feet long or shorter. 听 Sliding tables longer than 98-inches require the 1500 outrigger (the support arm under the table that supports it throughout the travel of the sliding table must extend further, and is thus longer, and so is the table above it to match). 听 I don鈥檛 believe Felder offers the 1300 outrigger table on the Kappa 400 (they do on the 700-series) if you get one of the shorter sliding tables.
There is a third outrigger table called the 鈥淴-Roll鈥� outrigger( option 161) - talk about creating confusion with that name !!! 听 听Anyway, the X-Roll outrigger has a roller-bearing actuated small table that supports the crosscut fence on the outrigger table, and makes it much easer to reposition the fence for angled cuts. 听 The digital crosscut fence is about twice as heavy as the analog version, and if you load it up with a digital telescoping extension, it ends up about 50 pounds total. 听 Trying to man-handle that fence into the precision miter guide indexing system is a real chore and you can easily damage that index system if you鈥檙e not careful. 听 So they came up with the X-Roll outrigger table to address this, which has it鈥檚 own digital readout of the fence angle built in. 听 You can also provision that X-Roll table with a radio transmitter system so it talks to the digital crosscut stops and they cooperate in computing the true position of the stop from the blade when the fence is not at 90-degrees. 听 听The X-Roll outrigger unit even has a hand crank for precise positioning of the angle. 听 I don鈥檛 have the X-Roll outrigger table (wish I did) but David Luckensmeyer does. 听 Look at the photo in the following link and you鈥檒l see the X-Roll outrigger table element directly under the crosscut stop - it moves just like the sliding table, but of course is miniature in comparison - you鈥檒l also see the digital readout for the angle of the crosscut fence in the box between the crosscut stop and the sliding table:听
听
As for the crosscut fences, what I posted just prior to this for Michael applies to the Kappa 400, although there are additional option numbers relating to the radio compensation system on the X-Roll outrigger. 听Any of the crosscut fences can be put on any of the outrigger tables, although typically the X-Roll outrigger table
As for digital crosscut stops, I鈥檒l add the following. 听 The standard digital crosscut stop has the flipper on the left - which means the closest it will go to the blade is just over 8 inches. 听 If you want a digital crosscut stop that gets closer to the saw blade, you have to ADD (not substitute) an additional crosscut stop which is Felder part number 604-118. 听 That stop has the flipper on the right and will position down to about 3-inches from the blade. 听The digital crosscut stop on the telescoping extension is dedicated to the extension and can not be positioned below 74-inches. 听 On the non-digital crosscut fences, the analog crosscut stops can be used on the main part of the fence, or positioned on the telescoping extension - this is not the case with the digital stops. 听 More info on the digital stops is here - including a document on how to calibrate them: 听听
Sing out if you have more questions.
David Best
Hi David
So I haven't said anything lately, I have just been read your and everyone else s posts and I have gathered a wealth of information.
I have looked at some of the other stuff you have mentioned and I think I am set on the kappa 400 x. I have spent many hours looking at this saw and I have to say i understand it pretty well except for the options on the outrigger table. This messages helps but I still cant quite figure it out.听 Looking at the pictures of your saw i think we have the same set up but im not exactly sure. Looking at the book there seems to be three variations of the outrigger. I wish you were my Felder Rep it would make it much easier for me to figure this all out.
Glen 听听
-----Original Message----- From: 'david@bestservices IMAP 2' 听david@...听[felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> To: felder-woodworking < felder-woodworking@...> Sent: Sat, Dec 3, 2016 8:36 pm Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit 听Michael,
Let me clarify a few things. 听 I assume you are considering mechanical scoring because of your off-the-grid power consumption limits. 听 If you have the power for electronic scoring (it鈥檚 a separate motor), and don鈥檛 mind spending the additional for it, then it鈥檚 clearly a better choice - even if you don鈥檛 use scoring a lot, it will enhance the resale value appreciably. 听听
There is absolutely no excuse that your Felder sales rep can鈥檛 or won't research the answer to your question about the KF700 mechanical scoring. 听 Call Fergus Cook at the Felder Sacramento office and ask him to clarify the mechanical scoring option operation. 听If you don鈥檛 get satisfaction from Fergus, let me know and I鈥檒l text Hansj枚rg Felder directly. 听 You鈥檙e about to drop coin equivalent to a new Benz - you should be able to get answers and your sales rep should be willing to do the homework to satisfy your questions before you buy. 听 PERIOD.
On the subject of Precision Miter Guide, let me clarify - as it鈥檚 value to you has everything to do with what kind of work you expect to do. 听 If you plan on doing a lot of crosscut miters for things like mitered face frames, picture frames, mitered window/door frames, mitered raised panel doors, the precision miter guide option might be very valuable to you - especially if you鈥檙e working from dimensioned drawings where you know the precise length of the part you鈥檙e trying to miter. 听 听If you鈥檙e planning to do a lot of smaller (under ~36鈥�) picture frames or mitered raised panel doors or other similar joinery, you might actually be better off with the DGL or EGL. 听 In my own workflow, I have observed that when I want to angle the crosscut fence, 95 percent of the time I either want 45-degrees or some other angle which the precision miter guide doesn鈥檛 index, and I find the peg that extends below the crosscut fence a total pain in the ass to index to the slots on the precision miter guide, so I removed the peg. 听 I can consistently position the crosscut fence at 45-degrees using the markings on the the top of the crossbar. 听 My crosscut fence is twice the weight of what yours will be (because it鈥檚 digital), and that has an influence on my frustration level with the indexing system as well. 听 I also have the benefit of owning an EGL, so if I鈥檓 going to be doing a lot of mitering work, cutting to known lengths, I鈥檒l drop on the EGL. 听
I too would be interested to hear from other K/KF700 owners with precision miter guide just how often they use/need it and if they find it cumbersome to use. 听听
One other word of caution. 听 If you plan to use the shaper much, you鈥檒l want a power feeder. 听 Such power feeder would mount on the tilt-away bracket that attaches to the back edge of the cast iron top of the machine. 听 You can order the bracket later when you get the feeder. 听 However, as recently as 3 years ago, the tilt away bracket could not be used in conjunction with the 1500 outrigger because the telescoping support arm for the outrigger table would bind on the inverted power feeder. 听 This may have changed - I don鈥檛 know, but you should know, and if it鈥檚 true, and you expect to use a power feeder, you would be better off with the 1300 outrigger.
David Best 听听
So I'm working on finalizing my order for a KF700 S Pro with a 10 foot slider and the 1500mm outrigger.听 I've gotten some excellent advice from David Best.听 David noted that in his experience the precision miter attachment is fussy to use and not worth the hassle.听 I'm curious whether anyone else has an opinion.听 Does anyone who has one like theirs?听听 Why?听 Why not?
David also noted that on his KF700 (back in the day before he upgraded) that the mechanical scoring system required the main blade to be fully elevated to use it.听 Is this still the case?听 Is it different on the electric scoring unit?听 I've asked my the rep at Felder, but she doesn't seem to really know the equipment.
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
Newman Lake, WA
|
One last digression as well.听 The new 7 series BMW is a really nice ride.听 In a year or two it would have been on my list as they are taking a beating on the used market here.听 Seems they were expected to jump ahead more of the W222 S class redone in 2014
.听 The redesigned A8L will be out next spring so that may become the pick of the litter.听 Dave
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From: felder-woodworking@... on behalf of patrick walsh pwalsh651@... [felder-woodworking]
Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 4:20 PM
To: felder-woodworking@...
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
听
听
After my last post i though i should had mentioned i have never driven or owned听a Mercedes Gullwing or AMG anything of that caliber. Maybe i just dont knw what i dont know?听I have been in many top of the line S500 Mercedes and always felt a 700 series BMW
was a much听nicer car. I digress, i should finish my original听thought.听I听have alao never听seen a听Kapa 500 or Format anything in person. So听in all fairness maybe my comparison is not up to snuff.
I have always felt though that for the same money spent on a Mercedes you could get a much more refined machine in a BMW. Again things change and maybe in the last ten years the scales have tipped out of the favor of BMW.
Anyway this is not what this thread is about. I suppose i just wish to own a slider period ;)
On Sunday, December 4, 2016, 'James Baker' jamesbaker1@... [felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
听
There are multiple James answering this thread, but I have the 173, nothing digital on my saw, all cursor and eyeball settings.
听
听
听
Interesting.听 The Felder configurator won't let you pick the digital cross cut option (#171) if you pick the precision miter option with length compensation (#173):
170 Precision miter unit with pin locating system for outrigger table crosscut fence[听] O 173 Precision mitre guide with cutting length compensation for 1300/1500 outrigger[听] O 171 Digital flip stop 74鈥� (1900 mm), 1 digital flip stop, extendable to 126鈥� (3200
mm) for outrigger 1500[听] O
It looks like you can still get the "pin" option though (#170).
James, which one do you have?
The 173 ()
or the 171 ()
|
It looks like this thread is hijacked towards cars.听
I am in the market for a car and the new Audi Q7 has very good test reports. Do any of you have experience with Audi that is relevant to their newer cars?
Thanks听
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Show quoted text
听
I agree that the low end Mercedes is not what I'd spend for.听 I don't use or like half the electronics on any of them and am strictly a buy the large sedan I like to drive the best- and what can be found that is 2 years old, tricked out and under 5K in miles.听
I've had most all of them and like every machine I've owned, it could be better.听 Dave
听
I used to be听really into German cars. I owned听Mostly BMW but also one Audi and one Mercedes. This was ten years ago now. I owned six BMW's in that time all the way from a 318i to a Near new M3.
By far the Mercedes was the biggest piece of crap car i ever owned. For point of refernce i now own a Nissan Frontier and althought the trim is plastic it is a very reliable and well built vehicle.听听
Bellow every surface of that Mercedes was plastic. From a engineering perspective the car handled like crap also. If听you know anything about cars and put your head under the hood you would quickly understand why! Everything was bottom of th barrel.听Now
this was a C class but still a Mercedes non the less. I had a Jetta that was by far superior with regard to quality of build regarding both engineeiring and fit and finish.
I would say Felder is like a nice VW imop... Maybe mid range A4?
听
On Sunday, December 4, 2016, James Zhu james.zhu2@... [felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
听
I have precision miter with length compensation.听
James
Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 1:16 AM
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
|
听
Interesting.听 The Felder configurator won't let you pick the digital cross cut option (#171) if you pick the precision miter option with length compensation (#173):
170 Precision miter unit with pin locating system for outrigger table crosscut fence O 173 Precision mitre guide with cutting length compensation for 1300/1500 outrigger
O 171 Digital flip stop 74鈥� (1900 mm), 1 digital flip stop, extendable to 126鈥� (3200 mm) for outrigger 1500 O
It looks like you can still get the "pin" option though (#170).
James, which one do you have?
The 173 ()
or the 171 ()
|
All I can tell you is that every dealer says the other cars are worse for repairs.听 I've always been lucky but if you watch videos on how these cars are made and the amount of electronics stuffed in every corner, you wonder how they run at all.听 I always
thought Audi's all wheel drive- Haldex - was the best out there but most others are using听 systems pretty similar now.听 My wife loves her RX 350 and it is dependable.听 I hate driving it.听 I've a friend with a Q7 but he is so rich that he wouldn't remember
which car was in the shop so no help.听 Dave
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From: felder-woodworking@... on behalf of Marty Shultz mbshultz@... [felder-woodworking]
Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 7:18 PM
To: felder-woodworking@...
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
听
听
It looks like this thread is hijacked towards cars.听
I am in the market for a car and the new Audi Q7 has very good test reports. Do any of you have experience with Audi that is relevant to their newer cars?
Thanks听
听
I agree that the low end Mercedes is not what I'd spend for.听 I don't use or like half the electronics on any of them and am strictly a buy the large sedan I like to drive the best- and what can be found that is 2 years old, tricked out and under 5K in miles.听
I've had most all of them and like every machine I've owned, it could be better.听 Dave
听
I used to be听really into German cars. I owned听Mostly BMW but also one Audi and one Mercedes. This was ten years ago now. I owned six BMW's in that time all the way from a 318i to a Near new M3.
By far the Mercedes was the biggest piece of crap car i ever owned. For point of refernce i now own a Nissan Frontier and althought the trim is plastic it is a very reliable and well built vehicle.听听
Bellow every surface of that Mercedes was plastic. From a engineering perspective the car handled like crap also. If听you know anything about cars and put your head under the hood you would quickly understand why! Everything was bottom of th barrel.听Now
this was a C class but still a Mercedes non the less. I had a Jetta that was by far superior with regard to quality of build regarding both engineeiring and fit and finish.
I would say Felder is like a nice VW imop... Maybe mid range A4?
听
On Sunday, December 4, 2016, James Zhu james.zhu2@... [felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
听
I have precision miter with length compensation.听
James
Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 1:16 AM
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
|
听
Interesting.听 The Felder configurator won't let you pick the digital cross cut option (#171) if you pick the precision miter option with length compensation (#173):
170 Precision miter unit with pin locating system for outrigger table crosscut fence O 173 Precision mitre guide with cutting length compensation for 1300/1500 outrigger
O 171 Digital flip stop 74鈥� (1900 mm), 1 digital flip stop, extendable to 126鈥� (3200 mm) for outrigger 1500 O
It looks like you can still get the "pin" option though (#170).
James, which one do you have?
The 173 ()
or the 171 ()
|
David P. Best
David Luckensmeyer