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Videos on the use of the T-12 Shaper - preset for adjustable groover

 



Scott Slater indicated to me that it would be nice if there were how-to videos on the use of the Martin shapers. I indicated to Scott that I would be happy to help with that, as that would allow me to better learn (with Scott's help) how to use my equipment properly and efficiently.

This video is a "rough draft" of what I am trying to accomplish. ?They are certainly not as nice overall as the videos of David Best and David Zaret and Steve (Extreme Woodworker), but I do not think there are any videos out there showing how to do pre-sets for adjustable groovers on Martin Shapers. ?I have already identified things that can be improved with better lighting and editing etc. ?Subsequent videos will be way shorter in length.

Any suggestions, let me know. ?For me, I am not interested in being a "Youtuber" for profit, and do not even want my name associated with my videos on Youtube. ?At some point, I may host them elsewhere and/or disable comments. ?Mostly interested in learning more and helping others.
Re: Adjusting FB510 table orientation with blade? #Bandsaw #whatmachinetobuy

 

Ditto the Snodgrass video. I followed his instructions and have gotten very accurate resaw thicknesses. Snodgrass claims the fence can be out by 1/4¡± and still cut straight. I¡¯m not sure about that but Michael Fortune¡¯s point about the fence being parallel to the t-slot makes sense for the reason of using the slot for auxiliary jigs.

On Sun, May 23, 2021 at 8:00 AM <tomruth@...> wrote:
Craig,

????? Looks like you have a great saw. I would get a 1" carbide tipped blade like the Woodmaster CT by Lenox and put plenty of tension on it. They are expensive, but will last easily 10 times longer than steel blades. I would try different ways to adjust the blade as to how it rides on the wheel. Don't worry about not being able to move your table in relation to the saw. Also, adjust your guides as per the Snodgrass videos. I think you will not have any more drift problems. And if you really get into resawing, consider building a taller fence and something to keep pressure on the stock to keep it tight against the fence as you saw. I used to hate resawing, but since doing all the above to my saw, I really enjoy it now.

--
Kevin J. Wells
Re: replacing a sliding table saw with a CNC router

 

Lot of great feedbacks,

I think I start to grasp the limitation about the stock thickness and alignment. For my use case, I believe this is manageable with a small table saw on a side and something like pin (Michael's feedback)?or??with vacuum for alignment.

I like the "x rated" video, but it is gonna stay in the video as i am not an actor :).

I will continue to look at both options until I need to make a decision.

On the brands, all the ones I listed are hobby/small shop or middle of the road type. They seems to all have cost cutting somewhere compare to the heavy duty one, but not on on the same components such WInCNC vs industrial controller or single screw for Y axis vs two screws or manual zone vs automatic zone. If anyone has knowledge on those brands that would be great. I parsed internet and it looks like a GM vs Ford situation except for DMS patriot line for which there is really nothing to find about. From my viewpoint, as long as the company support the product after sales and there is no big design no-no, I am not worried.

Thanks,

Bill
Re: Not felder (directly)

 

If you have a CNC, and know strategy for gluing up laminations for arch, it's pretty straightforward to produce arched casing.?
Here's a small moulding detail I produced from flat stock, if that's the scale of moulding you'll apply to boxing at the arch.
?
Also, WH/Shop fox moulder with proper guides can get things done, though not as sophisticated as that machine appears to be.?

Curved work is like brain surgery vs removing a splinter.?

Jeff


On Sun, May 23, 2021 at 11:48 AM Mike S <Mike@...> wrote:
Anyone have experience with radius moulding?? I¡¯ve got quite a big trim job coming up boxing columns and arches with stain grade walnut (second phase.? Painters just finished with the chair rail/panels I did).? I¡¯ve talked to my local millwork shop and wasn¡¯t left thinking that its going to be successful to job it out.? Lots of YouTube out there with Williams Hussey users but I¡¯ve wondered about the Mikron machine (). Very niche I know but I really want to control quality on this (a dozen arches of the same size and one much bigger).? Still working on design but expect significant detail.? One of these situations where I really don¡¯t know what I don¡¯t know...? Thanks.

Resized_20210523_115948.jpeg

Re: replacing a sliding table saw with a CNC router

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Exactly, these things are fun to drool over, but out of reach for 99% of us. I almost went pod and rail machine because they can be pretty cheap, but most of them needed 440V or way more amperage than I can get here at home. They also tend to be a lot longer in physical size compare to their length of cut, an 8¡¯ machine might be 12-13¡¯ long.

I lost so much shop space with my relatively compact 4x8 machine that I can¡¯t imagine anything bigger.

Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
www.lambtoolworks.com




On May 23, 2021, at 10:48 AM, Michael Garrison Stuber <mtgstuber@...> wrote:

Fascinating video Brian.? I really liked the plunge cut chain-saw head for mortises.? If I wanted to make a couple hundred thousands of something and I had the necessary capital, this would be a lot of fun.

On 5/23/2021 10:16 AM, Brian Lamb wrote:
For an idea of what¡¯s out there in aggregate heads, watch this video:??

The problem here is the machines stout enough to handle them are usually pricey, like over $100k. They are either Cat40 spindles or HSK63, so big in hp too. And don¡¯t forget, each aggregate head could easily run $4000 to $10,00 in cost. Ones where you see the head rotate, to saw say in the X and Y directions, you have to have a C axis built into the spindle.

None of these things are usually found in a 4x8 machine sized for the home shop. Now, can you edge joint large slabs with an end mill, sure, not a problem, and do tenons and mortises, most likely if you have enough Z travel. Ripping boards, not so much if they get very thick. I don¡¯t like to cut with smaller than a 1/4¡± bit to go through 3/4¡±, for 8/4 I would be looking at 1/2¡±, maybe 3/8¡± if you run slow and multiple depths. That¡¯s a lot of wasted material and time to just cut something.

Facing slabs or glue ups is easy, not as fast as a planer or drum sander, and you still have to figure out how to hold it.

Brian Lamb
blamb11@...





On May 23, 2021, at 9:30 AM, Bill James via <xxrb2010@...> wrote:

Thanks for all the feedback,

I do get than for most of you this is not a replacement, but for my use case I am still no convinced. For examples, I do not cut anything taller than 8/4. I have done cross cut on 4x4 or 4x6, but this can be done on a miter saw. I do not have a shaper, and do everything on my table saw and jointer/planer. I plan to keep my jointer/planer and miter saw.

I do get that thin rip (1/8") or face frame stock are too thin for a CNC. As I do those kind of rip cuts, I can live with a small traditional table saw along a wall for that. Then I am left with bigger hardwood stocks out of the jointer/planer for glue ups or others that I normally cut to final size on my table saw. First, I guess I can get final size on the planer.
However, can you rip and cross cut 8/4, 4/4 hardwood with a cutter on a CNC as well as do joinery like dado, rabbet on those same 8/4, 4/4? Let's assume lumbers have been jointed and planed and are big enough to work either with a modest vacuum such as hurricane type or a small rotary vane vacuum pump for pods table? Like 4 inches wide at least and a couple of feet long, I guess?

What about aggregates? Brian mentioned them and I am wondering what are those aggregates used for beside joinery on the side (drilling) and bevel cut? Are they adding anything for hardwood cutting?

I have not yet a shaper, but I am wondering which kind of shaper tasks a modern CNC with vacuum as mentioned above can do without crazy jigs? I see stock longer than 8 ft not feasible on a CNC, but I do not know enough about CNC and shaper to know anything here.

Thanks

Bill 

-- 
Michael Garrison Stuber
Not felder (directly)

 

Anyone have experience with radius moulding? ?I¡¯ve got quite a big trim job coming up boxing columns and arches with stain grade walnut (second phase. ?Painters just finished with the chair rail/panels I did). ?I¡¯ve talked to my local millwork shop and wasn¡¯t left thinking that its going to be successful to job it out. ?Lots of YouTube out there with Williams Hussey users but I¡¯ve wondered about the Mikron machine (). Very niche I know but I really want to control quality on this (a dozen arches of the same size and one much bigger). ?Still working on design but expect significant detail. ?One of these situations where I really don¡¯t know what I don¡¯t know... ?Thanks.

E04045D1-C55E-4622-9AE7-70434EBCD3FD.jpeg

Re: replacing a sliding table saw with a CNC router

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Fascinating video Brian.? I really liked the plunge cut chain-saw head for mortises.? If I wanted to make a couple hundred thousands of something and I had the necessary capital, this would be a lot of fun.

On 5/23/2021 10:16 AM, Brian Lamb wrote:
For an idea of what¡¯s out there in aggregate heads, watch this video:??

The problem here is the machines stout enough to handle them are usually pricey, like over $100k. They are either Cat40 spindles or HSK63, so big in hp too. And don¡¯t forget, each aggregate head could easily run $4000 to $10,00 in cost. Ones where you see the head rotate, to saw say in the X and Y directions, you have to have a C axis built into the spindle.

None of these things are usually found in a 4x8 machine sized for the home shop. Now, can you edge joint large slabs with an end mill, sure, not a problem, and do tenons and mortises, most likely if you have enough Z travel. Ripping boards, not so much if they get very thick. I don¡¯t like to cut with smaller than a 1/4¡± bit to go through 3/4¡±, for 8/4 I would be looking at 1/2¡±, maybe 3/8¡± if you run slow and multiple depths. That¡¯s a lot of wasted material and time to just cut something.

Facing slabs or glue ups is easy, not as fast as a planer or drum sander, and you still have to figure out how to hold it.

Brian Lamb
blamb11@...





On May 23, 2021, at 9:30 AM, Bill James via <xxrb2010@...> wrote:

Thanks for all the feedback,

I do get than for most of you this is not a replacement, but for my use case I am still no convinced. For examples, I do not cut anything taller than 8/4. I have done cross cut on 4x4 or 4x6, but this can be done on a miter saw. I do not have a shaper, and do everything on my table saw and jointer/planer. I plan to keep my jointer/planer and miter saw.

I do get that thin rip (1/8") or face frame stock are too thin for a CNC. As I do those kind of rip cuts, I can live with a small traditional table saw along a wall for that. Then I am left with bigger hardwood stocks out of the jointer/planer for glue ups or others that I normally cut to final size on my table saw. First, I guess I can get final size on the planer.
However, can you rip and cross cut 8/4, 4/4 hardwood with a cutter on a CNC as well as do joinery like dado, rabbet on those same 8/4, 4/4? Let's assume lumbers have been jointed and planed and are big enough to work either with a modest vacuum such as hurricane type or a small rotary vane vacuum pump for pods table? Like 4 inches wide at least and a couple of feet long, I guess?

What about aggregates? Brian mentioned them and I am wondering what are those aggregates used for beside joinery on the side (drilling) and bevel cut? Are they adding anything for hardwood cutting?

I have not yet a shaper, but I am wondering which kind of shaper tasks a modern CNC with vacuum as mentioned above can do without crazy jigs? I see stock longer than 8 ft not feasible on a CNC, but I do not know enough about CNC and shaper to know anything here.

Thanks

Bill 

-- 
Michael Garrison Stuber
Re: replacing a sliding table saw with a CNC router

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Remember, you're depth of cut is limited by the length of your tooling.? In general, the longer the tool is, the larger the diameter is going to be.? Cutting 8/4 stock is going to require at least four passes (probably more, but it depends on the machine) with a 1/2" diameter cutter.? That's a lot of waste.? You might be able to get away with using a 3/8" diameter cutter, but you're probably not going to find a 1/4" diameter that is long enough to provide the required clearance.

In terms of rip versus crosscut, the CNC machine doesn't really care.? It's more of a question of conventional versus climb cutting, as everything is being done with a spinning router bit rather than a blade.? Also keep in mind that you're not going to get square inside corners.? There are ways to mitigate this some (depending what you're trying to achieve) such as dog bones, or changing tools to small a smaller diameter cutter, etc. but it's a fundamental limitation of the type of cutting you're doing.

Regarding bed size, you can get machines with longer beds if desired.? I'm seriously considering 5x10 for my next machine.? This would let me work with two pieces of 5x5 baltic birch at once if desired, or leave a rotary axis at one end while still having room for a 4x8 sheet of plywood.?? But yes, the bed size is the basic limitation, unless you're willing to have stock overhang one end and reposition it after a series of cuts.

You'll need to work out how you're doing your registration for joinery.? On a saw there's a fence.? When well-tuned you know exactly the relationship between the fence and the blade.? There is no "fence" on a typical CNC machine.? You would either need to do all of your cutting and joinery in one operation so that the joinery aligns exactly with the other cuts being made, or you need to provide a mechanism for registration.? On my CNC machine I implemented something like a festool MFT with 20 mm holes in a grid pattern across the bed.? I then milled a set of solid hardwood fences that I can pop in anywhere in the grid pattern on the table.? I can them use festool FMT clamps or some of the lee valley bench pups to hold stock against the fence.? I have program that aligns the cutter head with the edge of my fence (as opposed to the proximity switches).? This works pretty well for allowing me to do repeatable cuts into the surface of my stock, but it would be a fail for doing any profile cuts around the stock.? By using hardwood for my moveable fences there's not too much harm done if screw up and run the tool into the fence.? (Side note here, I've ended up with a variety of brass, plastic, wood, and aluminum for hold-downs so I don't do too much damage if I've misjudged a clearance.? I'm embarrassed that I make these occasional mistakes with the machine, but they continue to happen, so I have just made a point to make them less painful.)

Again, I'm not saying it can't be done, but you're definitely going to need to think through the order of operations in your joinery and how you're going to solve the combination of hold down and registration issues.

On 5/23/2021 9:30 AM, Bill James via groups.io wrote:
Thanks for all the feedback,

I do get than for most of you this is not a replacement, but for my use case I am still no convinced. For examples, I do not cut anything taller than 8/4. I have done cross cut on 4x4 or 4x6, but this can be done on a miter saw. I do not have a shaper, and do everything on my table saw and jointer/planer. I plan to keep my jointer/planer and miter saw.

I do get that thin rip (1/8") or face frame stock are too thin for a CNC. As I do those kind of rip cuts, I can live with a small traditional table saw along a wall for that. Then I am left with bigger hardwood stocks out of the jointer/planer for glue ups or others that I normally cut to final size on my table saw. First, I guess I can get final size on the planer.
However, can you rip and cross cut 8/4, 4/4 hardwood with a cutter on a CNC as well as do joinery like dado, rabbet on those same 8/4, 4/4? Let's assume lumbers have been jointed and planed and are big enough to work either with a modest vacuum such as hurricane type or a small rotary vane vacuum pump for pods table? Like 4 inches wide at least and a couple of feet long, I guess?

What about aggregates? Brian mentioned them and I am wondering what are those aggregates used for beside joinery on the side (drilling) and bevel cut? Are they adding anything for hardwood cutting?

I have not yet a shaper, but I am wondering which kind of shaper tasks a modern CNC with vacuum as mentioned above can do without crazy jigs? I see stock longer than 8 ft not feasible on a CNC, but I do not know enough about CNC and shaper to know anything here.

Thanks

Bill 
-- 
Michael Garrison Stuber
Re: replacing a sliding table saw with a CNC router

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

For an idea of what¡¯s out there in aggregate heads, watch this video:??

The problem here is the machines stout enough to handle them are usually pricey, like over $100k. They are either Cat40 spindles or HSK63, so big in hp too. And don¡¯t forget, each aggregate head could easily run $4000 to $10,00 in cost. Ones where you see the head rotate, to saw say in the X and Y directions, you have to have a C axis built into the spindle.

None of these things are usually found in a 4x8 machine sized for the home shop. Now, can you edge joint large slabs with an end mill, sure, not a problem, and do tenons and mortises, most likely if you have enough Z travel. Ripping boards, not so much if they get very thick. I don¡¯t like to cut with smaller than a 1/4¡± bit to go through 3/4¡±, for 8/4 I would be looking at 1/2¡±, maybe 3/8¡± if you run slow and multiple depths. That¡¯s a lot of wasted material and time to just cut something.

Facing slabs or glue ups is easy, not as fast as a planer or drum sander, and you still have to figure out how to hold it.

Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
www.lambtoolworks.com




On May 23, 2021, at 9:30 AM, Bill James via <xxrb2010@...> wrote:

Thanks for all the feedback,

I do get than for most of you this is not a replacement, but for my use case I am still no convinced. For examples, I do not cut anything taller than 8/4. I have done cross cut on 4x4 or 4x6, but this can be done on a miter saw. I do not have a shaper, and do everything on my table saw and jointer/planer. I plan to keep my jointer/planer and miter saw.

I do get that thin rip (1/8") or face frame stock are too thin for a CNC. As I do those kind of rip cuts, I can live with a small traditional table saw along a wall for that. Then I am left with bigger hardwood stocks out of the jointer/planer for glue ups or others that I normally cut to final size on my table saw. First, I guess I can get final size on the planer.
However, can you rip and cross cut 8/4, 4/4 hardwood with a cutter on a CNC as well as do joinery like dado, rabbet on those same 8/4, 4/4? Let's assume lumbers have been jointed and planed and are big enough to work either with a modest vacuum such as hurricane type or a small rotary vane vacuum pump for pods table? Like 4 inches wide at least and a couple of feet long, I guess?

What about aggregates? Brian mentioned them and I am wondering what are those aggregates used for beside joinery on the side (drilling) and bevel cut? Are they adding anything for hardwood cutting?

I have not yet a shaper, but I am wondering which kind of shaper tasks a modern CNC with vacuum as mentioned above can do without crazy jigs? I see stock longer than 8 ft not feasible on a CNC, but I do not know enough about CNC and shaper to know anything here.

Thanks

Bill

Re: replacing a sliding table saw with a CNC router

 

Thanks for all the feedback,

I do get than for most of you this is not a replacement, but for my use case I am still no convinced. For examples, I do not cut anything taller than 8/4. I have done cross cut on 4x4 or 4x6, but this can be done on a miter saw. I do not have a shaper, and do everything on my table saw and jointer/planer. I plan to keep my jointer/planer and miter saw.

I do get that thin rip (1/8") or face frame stock are too thin for a CNC. As I do those kind of rip cuts, I can live with a small traditional table saw along a wall for that. Then I am left with bigger hardwood stocks out of the jointer/planer for glue ups or others that I normally cut to final size on my table saw. First, I guess I can get final size on the planer.
However, can you rip and cross cut 8/4, 4/4 hardwood with a cutter on a CNC as well as do joinery like dado, rabbet on those same 8/4, 4/4? Let's assume lumbers have been jointed and planed and are big enough to work either with a modest vacuum such as hurricane type or a small rotary vane vacuum pump for pods table? Like 4 inches wide at least and a couple of feet long, I guess?

What about aggregates? Brian mentioned them and I am wondering what are those aggregates used for beside joinery on the side (drilling) and bevel cut? Are they adding anything for hardwood cutting?

I have not yet a shaper, but I am wondering which kind of shaper tasks a modern CNC with vacuum as mentioned above can do without crazy jigs? I see stock longer than 8 ft not feasible on a CNC, but I do not know enough about CNC and shaper to know anything here.

Thanks

Bill
Re: Adjusting FB510 table orientation with blade? #Bandsaw #whatmachinetobuy

 

Craig,

????? Looks like you have a great saw. I would get a 1" carbide tipped blade like the Woodmaster CT by Lenox and put plenty of tension on it. They are expensive, but will last easily 10 times longer than steel blades. I would try different ways to adjust the blade as to how it rides on the wheel. Don't worry about not being able to move your table in relation to the saw. Also, adjust your guides as per the Snodgrass videos. I think you will not have any more drift problems. And if you really get into resawing, consider building a taller fence and something to keep pressure on the stock to keep it tight against the fence as you saw. I used to hate resawing, but since doing all the above to my saw, I really enjoy it now.
Re: Adjusting FB510 table orientation with blade? #Bandsaw #whatmachinetobuy

 

I quit watching the video as soon as I heard "Center the blade on the upper wheel". This is the method I was first taught and always had problems tweaking alignment. Plus, changing blades means realignment every time.?

Consider an alternate method: Alex Snodgrass. The philosophical?difference is centering the teeth/gullets on the upper wheel. Much easier, repeatable, and changing blades means often no alignment issues at all, at least for me.

You will also likely?find the Alex Snodgrass method allows you to make minute upper wheel tracking adjustments under tension to correct any miter-slot/fence alignment you are experiencing, easily. That's what I do. In fact my bandsaw's?table isn't fully secured in place. I tap with a mallet to allow extra adjustment with some of the squirrely applications I find in my shop (which I would?recommend to nobody but it works for me).







On Sun, May 23, 2021 at 5:05 AM <longdog.woodworking@...> wrote:
Hello -

I am new here.? This is my first post.?

I have an FB510 band saw and I have been having problems with blade drift especially with wider resaw type blades.? I was given a tip by a fellow named Bob at R&B Bandsaw to check out this video ?

and related article ?
by Michael Fortune.?

So I began by adjusting the fence clamp bar so the the fence is very well aligned as parallel with the miter slot and blade slot. ?

I proceeded to do the cutting tests and the wood is tight between the fence and the left side of the blade. As such the blade is bowing slightly to the right of the operator.? When I stop the saw in the cut, there is a small gap between the right side of the blade and the wood and of course no gap on the left side. ?

Based on the information in the video and article, I conclude that the table (and so too the properly aligned fence) are out of alignment (not parallel) with the blade and in this case turned a bit too far clockwise from the perspective of the operator looking down at the table.?

Given this, my desire is to adjust / move the table top relative to the blade (and so relative to the rest of the saw) such that the table top would be rotated very slightly counterclockwise from its current position.?

Initially, I mistakenly thought this could be accomplished by loosening the 4 bolts holding the table top to the semi-circular base below it (that base piece is the one that can be unlocked to allow the table top to be oriented on an angle to horizontal) and then just shift the table top as I wanted and retighten (similar to the procedure described in the video). ? The table top cannot be shifted like that because near two of the 4 bolt holes mentioned there are also little placement pins that stick up from the semi-circular base into small holes in the bottom of the table top; these hold the table top such that they exactly align all four bolt holes in the table top with the corresponding semi circular base below. ? As well, there is no play between bolt holes and the bolts; the table top was not intended to be adjusted this way. ?(I tightened the 4 bolts back up).?

I notice that there are a pair of bolts which attach the semi circular base piece to the frame below it, and I wondered if there was some play and possibility for adjustment there, but I thought I should try to find out from somebody who knows before trying anything further.?

So, please tell me how can I make the such an ?adjustment in the table orientation??

craig?



--
Brett Wissel
Saint Louis Restoration
1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd)
St Louis, MO 63110

314.772.2167
brett@...
Re: replacing a sliding table saw with a CNC router

 

We justified some of the cost of a great cnc setup by thinking it would eliminate traditional tool upgrade purchases. We bought a slider and shaper a year later upon limitations of the cnc.

The previous comments reflect my experience as well.? The cnc can be configured to do many versatile things, but that doesn't mean it is feasible to do so.?

You may find space savings don't work out in practice. You may end up with more configuration/setup jigs for your cnc operations modes, plus the inevitable tooling storage needs. I have a nested base cnc but made a vacuum pod table top to replace my spoilboard also, and it has to go somewhere when not in use. The 4th axis setup takes up the space of a standard lathe when not on the table as another example.

On Sat, May 22, 2021, 10:12 PM Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq. <rohrabacher@...> wrote:

I think this is a case of "One of these things is not like the other" ? on a level that makes them not swappable.

How deep? you going to cut with a CNC router?

On 5/22/21 5:00 PM, Bill James via wrote:
Hi,

I am trying to find a replacement for my sliding table saw that takes less space but still allows to build hardwood furnitures, builtins, closet systems, kitchen cabinets.. I am not interested in a standard table saw and I plan to keep my jointer/planer, miter saw for some of the hardwood task. I know that CNC routers with flat bed are really good for cabinet box/sheet good, but it seems that the new machines with some pod tables are able to manage hardwood too. I am not a production shop, just looking to see if I can reduce the footprint (2 times the sliding table length, the rip capacity and the outrigger).

If anyone has insight on using a CNC for sheet good and hardwood and would like to share, I will appreciate. In term of machines, I am looking at middle to high end version from Shopsabre, CAmaster, Freedom Patriot as they all offer compact design for a 4x8 table.

I know that there is a learning curve from software and cutting technics (flow, order, tooling, holding parts), but as hobbyist I do not see any issue with that.

Thanks for all feedback,

Bill

Adjusting FB510 table orientation with blade? #Bandsaw #whatmachinetobuy

 
Edited

Hello -

I am new here. ?This is my first post.?

I have an FB510 band saw and I have been having problems with blade drift especially with wider resaw type blades. ?I was given a tip by a fellow named Bob at R&B Bandsaw to check out this video ?

and related article ?
by Michael Fortune.?

So I began by adjusting the fence clamp bar so the the fence is very well aligned as parallel with the miter slot and blade slot. ?

I proceeded to do the cutting tests and the wood is tight between the fence and the left side of the blade. As such the blade is bowing slightly to the right of the operator. ?When I stop the saw in the cut, there is a small gap between the right side of the blade and the wood and of course no gap on the left side. ?

Based on the information in the video and article, I conclude that the table (and so too the properly aligned fence) are out of alignment (not parallel) with the blade and in this case turned a bit too far clockwise from the perspective of the operator looking down at the table.?

Given this, my desire is to adjust / move the table top relative to the blade (and so relative to the rest of the saw) such that the table top would be rotated very slightly counterclockwise from its current position.?

Initially, I mistakenly thought this could be accomplished by loosening the 4 bolts holding the table top to the semi-circular base below it (that base piece is the one that can be unlocked to allow the table top to be oriented on an angle to horizontal) and then just shift the table top as I wanted and retighten (similar to the procedure described in the video). ? The table top cannot be shifted like that because near two of the 4 bolt holes mentioned there are also little placement pins that stick up from the semi-circular base into small holes in the bottom of the table top; these hold the table top such that they exactly align all four bolt holes in the table top with the corresponding semi circular base below. ? As well, there is no play between bolt holes and the bolts; the table top was not intended to be adjusted this way. ?(I tightened the 4 bolts back up).?

I notice that there are a pair of bolts which attach the semi circular base piece to the frame below it, and I wondered if there was some play and possibility for adjustment there, but I thought I should try to find out from somebody who knows before trying anything further.?

So, please tell me how can I make the such an ?adjustment in the table orientation??

craig
Re: replacing a sliding table saw with a CNC router

Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq.
 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

I think this is a case of "One of these things is not like the other" ? on a level that makes them not swappable.

How deep? you going to cut with a CNC router?

On 5/22/21 5:00 PM, Bill James via groups.io wrote:

Hi,

I am trying to find a replacement for my sliding table saw that takes less space but still allows to build hardwood furnitures, builtins, closet systems, kitchen cabinets.. I am not interested in a standard table saw and I plan to keep my jointer/planer, miter saw for some of the hardwood task. I know that CNC routers with flat bed are really good for cabinet box/sheet good, but it seems that the new machines with some pod tables are able to manage hardwood too. I am not a production shop, just looking to see if I can reduce the footprint (2 times the sliding table length, the rip capacity and the outrigger).

If anyone has insight on using a CNC for sheet good and hardwood and would like to share, I will appreciate. In term of machines, I am looking at middle to high end version from Shopsabre, CAmaster, Freedom Patriot as they all offer compact design for a 4x8 table.

I know that there is a learning curve from software and cutting technics (flow, order, tooling, holding parts), but as hobbyist I do not see any issue with that.

Thanks for all feedback,

Bill

Re: replacing a sliding table saw with a CNC router

 

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I think this is pretty much on point, you can¡¯t replace a saw with the CNC, there are things that it can¡¯t do easily until you get into the $100k machines that have aggregate heads and can saw and drill in numerous directions. Pod and rail machines have gotten somewhat cheaper, but they can be pretty limited as until you get really big, most won¡¯t cover a 4x8 sheet.

I just picked up a 4x8 Stepcraft machine, don¡¯t think it¡¯s all that special, but it was cheap and local. I¡¯ve made a few parts on it and can see the advantages, although work holding is a real pain. I have been screwing sheet goods down to the spoil board, but am almost complete with a vacuum system, just have to machine the plenum table and hook up the last of the piping to the zones. That will help with sheet goods, but I don¡¯t see processing much in the way of solid wood on this. Anything can be done, just don¡¯t know how convenient or fast it would end up being.

Programming can be a deep dark hole¡­ fortunately I¡¯ve been doing CNC since the late 70¡¯s, so while working with cabinet shapes is different from what I¡¯m used to, it¡¯s not hard with Vectric and some of the other software packages out there to accomplish what you want.

On the op¡¯s list of machines, Freedom Patriot, now sold by SCM, would be my top choice, but you are in the $70k and up range for one with a tool changer and vac table.

Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
www.lambtoolworks.com




On May 22, 2021, at 2:26 PM, Michael Garrison Stuber <mtgstuber@...> wrote:

I've had a CNC router for over 20 years now.? I have a ShopBot PRT.? At some point I plan on upgrading, but I've got to finish moving into my new shop first.? Here are my observations:

  • CNC allows me to do things that I am incapable of doing by hand.
  • CNC requires good software.? Some of the best packages are thousands of dollars.? You also have to know how to use it, which takes time and dedication.? I'm a computer geek by trade so I don't find it at all imposing, but there are plenty of things that I still can't do well or quickly with the software because I don't spend enough time practicing.? I'm sure it would be different if I was doing projects every day.? Bottom line -- don't underestimate the time commitment associated with learning to use the software well.
  • CNC is great for things that need to be precise or that you want to make a lot of.?
  • CNC is awful for doing ad hoc work.? You have to do lots of design and setup up front.? You can't just "knock something out"
  • CNC can be painfully slow.? Part of this is my particular machine.? I'm sure a modern machine with a high horse power spindle would do better, but saw blades cut straight lines a lot faster than router bits do and give a nicer finished edge, even if you have the ultimate machine (and the power source to feed it).
  • Don't underestimate how much effort goes into holding down your materials.? Vacuum systems can help, but they add to the costs, complexity, and power consumption.
  • The nice thing about CNC jobs is you can set them up and let them run.? This is also the horrible thing.? CNC machines, even with spindles instead of routers, are loud, and you really can't leave them unattended.? Bad things, very bad things can happen if you set something wrong, or a collet wasn't quite tight enough, or there was an embedded nail you didn't know about.? You can have a fire or a ruined tool in a heartbeat.? So you're stuck there watching a loud screaming machine do it's thing.? The first couple of times it's magical.? After that it's boring.?? You'll want other tools in your shop to work with while you wait for the CNC.? And hearing protection.? Very good hearing protection.

CNC is a powerful creative tool and I'm very glad I have one.? I don't regret the cost or the space.? That said, while I've done shelving units and cabinets using it, given the limitations of my machine, it's not my first choice.? It's faster for me to knock things out on a saw and use the CNC for fancy decorative stuff.? For some of the small stuff I use my laser cutter instead, as I don't have to fuss with work holding.? When I first got the machine I thought I would use it for everything.? Now I use it for things that require precision, that require embellishment, or for things that I want to create multiple copies of.? When I upgrade machines I expect I'll revisit the work holding part of things and focus on improvements I can make there to make the CNC machine more effective.? I also plan on upgrading to a spindle (quieter) and a tool changer so that I can hog things out with a big bit and then switch to smaller bits for detail work and not have to fuss with it.

--Michael Garrison Stuber

On 5/22/2021 2:00 PM, Bill James via wrote:
Hi,

I am trying to find a replacement for my sliding table saw that takes less space but still allows to build hardwood furnitures, builtins, closet systems, kitchen cabinets.. I am not interested in a standard table saw and I plan to keep my jointer/planer, miter saw for some of the hardwood task. I know that CNC routers with flat bed are really good for cabinet box/sheet good, but it seems that the new machines with some pod tables are able to manage hardwood too. I am not a production shop, just looking to see if I can reduce the footprint (2 times the sliding table length, the rip capacity and the outrigger).

If anyone has insight on using a CNC for sheet good and hardwood and would like to share, I will appreciate. In term of machines, I am looking at middle to high end version from Shopsabre, CAmaster, Freedom Patriot as they all offer compact design for a 4x8 table.

I know that there is a learning curve from software and cutting technics (flow, order, tooling, holding parts), but as hobbyist I do not see any issue with that.

Thanks for all feedback,

Bill 
-- 
Michael Garrison Stuber
Re: replacing a sliding table saw with a CNC router

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

I've had a CNC router for over 20 years now.? I have a ShopBot PRT.? At some point I plan on upgrading, but I've got to finish moving into my new shop first.? Here are my observations:

  • CNC allows me to do things that I am incapable of doing by hand.
  • CNC requires good software.? Some of the best packages are thousands of dollars.? You also have to know how to use it, which takes time and dedication.? I'm a computer geek by trade so I don't find it at all imposing, but there are plenty of things that I still can't do well or quickly with the software because I don't spend enough time practicing.? I'm sure it would be different if I was doing projects every day.? Bottom line -- don't underestimate the time commitment associated with learning to use the software well.
  • CNC is great for things that need to be precise or that you want to make a lot of.?
  • CNC is awful for doing ad hoc work.? You have to do lots of design and setup up front.? You can't just "knock something out"
  • CNC can be painfully slow.? Part of this is my particular machine.? I'm sure a modern machine with a high horse power spindle would do better, but saw blades cut straight lines a lot faster than router bits do and give a nicer finished edge, even if you have the ultimate machine (and the power source to feed it).
  • Don't underestimate how much effort goes into holding down your materials.? Vacuum systems can help, but they add to the costs, complexity, and power consumption.
  • The nice thing about CNC jobs is you can set them up and let them run.? This is also the horrible thing.? CNC machines, even with spindles instead of routers, are loud, and you really can't leave them unattended.? Bad things, very bad things can happen if you set something wrong, or a collet wasn't quite tight enough, or there was an embedded nail you didn't know about.? You can have a fire or a ruined tool in a heartbeat.? So you're stuck there watching a loud screaming machine do it's thing.? The first couple of times it's magical.? After that it's boring.?? You'll want other tools in your shop to work with while you wait for the CNC.? And hearing protection.? Very good hearing protection.

CNC is a powerful creative tool and I'm very glad I have one.? I don't regret the cost or the space.? That said, while I've done shelving units and cabinets using it, given the limitations of my machine, it's not my first choice.? It's faster for me to knock things out on a saw and use the CNC for fancy decorative stuff.? For some of the small stuff I use my laser cutter instead, as I don't have to fuss with work holding.? When I first got the machine I thought I would use it for everything.? Now I use it for things that require precision, that require embellishment, or for things that I want to create multiple copies of.? When I upgrade machines I expect I'll revisit the work holding part of things and focus on improvements I can make there to make the CNC machine more effective.? I also plan on upgrading to a spindle (quieter) and a tool changer so that I can hog things out with a big bit and then switch to smaller bits for detail work and not have to fuss with it.

--Michael Garrison Stuber

On 5/22/2021 2:00 PM, Bill James via groups.io wrote:
Hi,

I am trying to find a replacement for my sliding table saw that takes less space but still allows to build hardwood furnitures, builtins, closet systems, kitchen cabinets.. I am not interested in a standard table saw and I plan to keep my jointer/planer, miter saw for some of the hardwood task. I know that CNC routers with flat bed are really good for cabinet box/sheet good, but it seems that the new machines with some pod tables are able to manage hardwood too. I am not a production shop, just looking to see if I can reduce the footprint (2 times the sliding table length, the rip capacity and the outrigger).

If anyone has insight on using a CNC for sheet good and hardwood and would like to share, I will appreciate. In term of machines, I am looking at middle to high end version from Shopsabre, CAmaster, Freedom Patriot as they all offer compact design for a 4x8 table.

I know that there is a learning curve from software and cutting technics (flow, order, tooling, holding parts), but as hobbyist I do not see any issue with that.

Thanks for all feedback,

Bill 
-- 
Michael Garrison Stuber
Re: replacing a sliding table saw with a CNC router

[email protected]
 

IMHO you are still going to want a table saw for cutting hardwoods. There are some things that are going to take you 10 times longer to do on the CNC. Want to rip down some boards? 4 seconds to setup and 4 seconds to cut on a table saw, vs the 10-20 minutes it¡¯s going to take setting up and cutting on the CNC. Want to rip 1/8¡± strips of hardwood? Not going to happen, or at least not well on the CNC. Hobbyist here as well with a 5¡¯x10¡¯ machine and no way would I get rid of my table saw. Also doesn¡¯t replace a jointer/planner though it can plank down large boards. ?
replacing a sliding table saw with a CNC router

 

Hi,

I am trying to find a replacement for my sliding table saw that takes less space but still allows to build hardwood furnitures, builtins, closet systems, kitchen cabinets.. I am not interested in a standard table saw and I plan to keep my jointer/planer, miter saw for some of the hardwood task. I know that CNC routers with flat bed are really good for cabinet box/sheet good, but it seems that the new machines with some pod tables are able to manage hardwood too. I am not a production shop, just looking to see if I can reduce the footprint (2 times the sliding table length, the rip capacity and the outrigger).

If anyone has insight on using a CNC for sheet good and hardwood and would like to share, I will appreciate. In term of machines, I am looking at middle to high end version from Shopsabre, CAmaster, Freedom Patriot as they all offer compact design for a 4x8 table.

I know that there is a learning curve from software and cutting technics (flow, order, tooling, holding parts), but as hobbyist I do not see any issue with that.

Thanks for all feedback,

Bill
Re: Selling my Hammer equip?

Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq.
 

right now manufacturer's costs are skyrocketing

There isn't enough of anything?? because of the last 18 months

You sell now?? you will find replacing them? will be a ferociously?
expensive

On 5/19/21 1:54 PM, Someone wrote:
Hi all,
I have a call into my rep at Felder, but wanted to ask here as well.

I have a 12¡± A3-31 Hammer Jointer/Planer and a Hammer N4400 17¡± amongst my woodworking tools that I¡¯m planning to sell soon. Bought New in 2013 if I recall correctly. Lovingly used lightly; the A3/31 still has the original cutting blades which are still sharp - used mostly on curly maple, walnut and a few other exotics. Have new upgraded blades ready to insert as well.
Bandsaw has about same amount of use. And multiple blades for a variety of use.

Don¡¯t need to sell, but would like to to start fresh in a new shop in a year or two. Doesn¡¯t make sense to store them, when I know good machines are sparse in availability right now. Would rather see them being put to use by someone more productive.

Upgraded both machines to accept the Hammer table extensions (have long and short). Professionally wired by a master electrician.

Best way to sell and ideas on price? I live in VA, USA if it matters.

Cheers,

Kelcey
24661 - 24680 of 141024