Router Spindle and router speeds under load
I posted a few weeks ago that I believed that routers slowed a lot under load. I decide how hard to push my routers based on the pitch the motor makes.? No load and the pitch is high, as the load increases the router slows down and the pitch drops.? I found this article from "American Woodworker" July/August 1993 page 42.? In a plunge router test they built a dynamometer that measured RPM and torque to test each router.? Some had electronic variable speed control which compensates and some did not.? Interestingly all dropped speed quite a bit under load.? Under light to medium load they dropped from rated (max) RPM to between 18,000-20,000 RPM.? Under heavy load they dropped to around 15,000 RPM.? Your the 5 HP motor in my Felder shaper, or the 7.5HP motor in my other Felder shaper no router bit is going to slow the spindle down.? Therefore I maintain that 15,000 RPM for a router spindle in a shaper is not much if a change compared to a router.? especially for any bit one would be likely to run with a router in a router table.? JPG file of the chat from the article attached.
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Hi Lucky,
Delay is my middle name, you helped me with getting the air pressure set up correct for the pulse cleaning on my RL 300 Its working great but it is new. I have never got the water set up because there is a shipping screw that I need to remove and I am not sure which one it is and I am too chicken to turn it on because with my luck something will go wrong and my wall starts dont work but I see that coming up in a later post so...
The only other issue like everyone else is the bins don't fill evenly but I may have the fix for that which I will share to all if it works. All and all I like it and I wasted money on gates, Haven't needed to close one of them yet. Best
Glen
Alpine Moulding and Millwork Inc.
Mail: ?? P.O. Box 257 ?????????? Avery, CA. 95224 Shop: 441 Pennsylvania Gulch Road ????????? Murphys, CA. 95247
????????? 650-678-3137 LIC # 707507
On Wed, Jan 20, 2021 at 1:42 PM David Luckensmeyer < dhluckens@...> wrote: Hi Glen:
Apologies for the delayed reply.
My pleasure for whatever help I was able to give. I also have ongoing “issues” but overall my RL250 is served well. Over the last week it has not been working — which is the first time since 2013 that it would not start. In the end, my electrician discovered that the solenoid governing the water-entry for fire suppression was activating, which in turn cuts all power to the machine. So I had to take off multiple panels to try to trace which sensor was acting up. I did not find the sensors, which are in areas outside the dust filter box, but there are two plastic tubes up high in the dust area which seem to be associated with the metal water pipe and sprinkler system. I had a small amount of chips and dust packed hard in this area, covering the tubes. The chips were long and curly (pine) and unusual for me. I immediately thought of the “Red Grandis” issues that have been reported on the FOG. Anyway, my RL250 is back up, working imperfectly as always. But I’m delighted with the 7 years of non-stop use, despite the design issues.
Ditto on your positive views about the Kappa 400 X-motion. I love my saw too.
You can have your “music in the heavens”. I’m an ACDC “Highway to Hell” kind of guy! LOL. Now, about that road trip, David B., when are you coming to Brisbane?!!!! :-)
Take care.
Warm regards,
Lucky
Hi Lucky, First I want to thank you for the help with my dust collector way back, and yes I still have a couple of issues with that. my issues are so minor I haven't dealt with them. I know that some here have had issues with Felder, I have not. I had my machines commissioned twice, again not their fault.California likes to turn off the power when there is a breeze. So they could not finish the commission and came back to complete at a later time at no cost to me. I have called to have them come out again and fix the issues months ago and they said no problem, but with covid and my lack of time on the machines< i have delayed it as is so minor. They have a list of every issue I have with every machine and to be honest half of that list has been eliminated because of the operator being me not knowing enough. My issues:
The rip fence was not parallel to the blade and fixed that but it was late into the night as they wanted to not have to come back but we both forgot to reset the computer to the new setting. I bought the 3rd right hand digital stop pre? David Best recommendation but it is programmed backwards and I found that it does not work with the angle compensation of the fence it sits on the shelf. I will deal with it at some point. Lastly I have a sticky fence stop that the micro adjust does not work good, I'm sure it just needs to be taken apart and cleaned, but I don't really know how and I don't want to pull it off the fence in fear of going through resetting it. I found that I can set it easy without the micro adjustment. Some day I will get these issues fixed as Felder is willing to come up and do it, but on the rip fence, I don't use much. I just add .05 and I am good and the sticky outrigger stop I can set that just as fast without the micro adjust.
Before I had two cabinet saws, A left hand tilt and a right hand tilt and they were good, but the Kappa blows them away. I love this saw.
And last, The screen that lets you program dado cuts so the saw adjusts automatically that I thought I would never use..? Use it all the time and have saved my settings ans so far perfect from job to job.
And to Mark, The flip stops have been fine for me no slop but I don't gang cut.
And I will say again I love this saw and the planer/jointer they are a pleasure to use.
Now if I could only get David Best to make a road trip to dial them as well as his, There would be music in the heavens. HInt, Hint, HInt. Glen
?
Alpine Moulding and Millwork Inc.
Mail: ?? P.O. Box 257 ?????????? Avery, CA. 95224 Shop: 441 Pennsylvania Gulch Road ????????? Murphys, CA. 95247
????????? 650-678-3137 LIC # 707507
Wouldn’t happen to be not square and plumb digital flip stops would it? On Jan 14, 2021, at 10:46 PM, David Luckensmeyer <dhluckens@...> wrote:
?Hi Glen:
I’d be interested to know what are your “minor issues” with the saw? ?I have the Kappa 400 X motion and love it.? I went all digital and at first reluctant but very happy now. I have a couple of minor issues but nothing bad, just haven’t gotten around to getting them fixed.? Glen ?After over 22 yrs. in my hobby shop I am changing things up having ordered my fourth and hopefully last saw. I started out in this shop with a Jet cabinet saw, then after 18 yrs decided to upgrade to a SawStop ICS which was a fine saw until I started investigating sliding crosscut for the SawStop and learned about euro sliding table saws. Unfortunately I didn’t know about this group at that time. Replaced my SawStop with the K500P and was hooked on sliders. I have really enjoyed using the K500 but wanted more, so decided to go through the trouble of buying a bigger Felder with 110” slider and all of the digital options. Will also be totally changing my shop layout and have my concrete floors ground down and have an epoxy finish done. I have 20 weeks to prepare for deliver of a Kappa 400 X-motion.? I’ve sold my K500 and it is being picked up in two days. Been busy disassembling everything in preparation for moving day. <21400DDA-961B-4579-82FA-1836E7253D12.jpeg> <E43AE742-5426-4BD8-8C32-F441083C63E7.jpeg> <71E3B4C4-85B5-4EF0-B9A1-0826A1A389ED.jpeg> <C7822B55-83BF-450B-A4B7-4DEFF74E84A2.jpeg> <443E7A74-81FE-4086-BC7F-2E7FCF4166C6.jpeg> <A85AA4DD-0B93-4682-879A-665562785892.jpeg>
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Re: X-Roll Festool quick clamp adapter T nuts
#diy
Apologies for being a rookie - I should not have tried adding a hashtag to an existing message, it broke the thread so adding again here for continuity.? Agree we could add a magnet if needed. For now they remain 100% printed.? 1. The existing version was made to fit my clamps and are friction fit....just right to separate when desired but do not fall apart. Manufacturing tolerances with both clamps and the print may make this hit or miss for others. 2. My idea had the fit not been so well matched would be to incorporate a bulge on one or both sides of the top notch to snap in the clamps recess. Its almost as if the clamp was designed for a ball catch.? 3. The radiused end does nothing, it was an experiment to see if square or round avoided binding with sawdust (an imagined potential issue).? They were printed in PLA with a gyroid infill for those having a go at it and were printed standing up with the notch at the top ensuring no overhangs in the print and making the bond layers perpendicular to the clamp force (Clamp would need to break through the pure extrusion and not separate a layer to fail). Choose your own number of layers, etc. The length was modified a few times so two can be used facing each other holding a narrow strip. Also to slide on the table and miss the end handle (can be avoided by inserting from the other end also.) As promised, the print file and design file have been uploaded to the "Files" section in the new 3D print folder. Members should be able to see and download it now - (non members don't see all the choices)  -- Mike B
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Re: Air Compressor Big and Small- David Kumm Style
The dial regulator is sweet. Each dial I have is showing the output pressure that particular regulator is making.?
The tank has one from the factory, the main output regulator has one, and each downstream unit also has one. If my wall mount was not close to the tank setup and easily all seen I would add another "T" before the wall distribution unit and add a gauge to display incoming line pressure. Before this unit mine was an old craftsman horizontal tank up in the rafters so I can certainly relate.
I'm all for the slow running or quiet options now offered and will agree with others stating the capacity is usually not needed for intermittent high use scenarios in a hobby setting since one can simply stop and allow it to catch up.?
--
Mike B
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Re: X-Roll Festool quick clamp adapter T nuts #diy#3D_Print
Agree we could add a magnet if needed. For now they remain 100% printed.? 1. The existing version was made to fit my clamps and are friction fit....just right to separate when desired but do not fall apart. Manufacturing tolerances with both clamps and the print may make this hit or miss for others. 2. My idea had the fit not been so well matched would be to incorporate a bulge on one or both sides of the top notch to snap in the clamps recess. Its almost as if the clamp was designed for a ball catch.? 3. The radiused end does nothing, it was an experiment to see if square or round avoided binding with sawdust (an imagined potential issue).? They were printed in PLA with a gyroid infill for those having a go at it and were printed standing up with the notch at the top ensuring no overhangs in the print and making the bond layers perpendicular to the clamp force (Clamp would need to break through the pure extrusion and not separate a layer to fail). Choose your own number of layers, etc. The length was modified a few times so two can be used facing each other holding a narrow strip. Also to slide on the table and miss the end handle (can be avoided by inserting from the other end also.) As promised, print file and design file uploaded to Files section in the new 3D print folder. -- Mike B
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Shop cleanup - Items for sale STL area
Taking stock in the shop, these items are available. PM if interested and we can discuss off this forum. I won't answer any questions back to the?group out of respect to the other FOG members who don't want to be involved in any garage sales. But there is a Felder in there if you read.
1. Excellent Condition?Supermax SE 37x2 double drum sander - the one that can take 12" thickness stock - with dust hoses, records back to original purchaser, Accurate Technologies digital scale, 220v single phase. I purchased used but went a different direction?-$2000 price.
2. Felder F700z new/delivered 08/2019 has digi-drive height and crank tilt. will happily rehome for the right deal, but who brings it? Might have some accessories at play in the deal also.
3. 2 Centauro T4-1600 hydraulic tracing copy lathes, basically twins circa 1995 and 1997. These are really neat machines but need somebody to love them and take the time to get them back to their potential, which is a project I failed to complete in 2020.
4. Rockler Dustright?650 with the upgraded filter and rotating beater bar. Works great, probably has <10 running hours,? been sitting in the corner too long and needs a good home. Great for a home shop single-point dust collector on 110v plug.
5. Sawstop CNS175 36" with mobile base, cast iron wings both sides, solid saw but doesn't get enough use. Someone make a better offer than my current use as an outfeed table.
6. Harbor Freight "Pittsburgh" rolling gantry crane/hoist, steel castors, 1ton capacity, maybe more. Great condition, always used inside. Made redundant a la forklift.
-- Brett Wissel
Saint Louis Restoration
1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd)
St Louis, MO 63110
314.772.2167
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Bill,
Yes it is 24VAC that is present on terminal 7 when in auto position. Closing external (user supplied) relay provides 24VAC to terminal 8, which should start the machine.
Imran
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On Jan 26, 2021, at 4:22 PM, Bill James via groups.io <xxrb2010@...> wrote: ?By the way, someone can confirm, but the diagram says something about 24 VAC, so I guess 24V AC.
Bill
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Re: Air Compressor Big and Small- David Kumm Style
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I saw a Quincy unit in a shop with two small boxes next to the pressure relief valve. ?Onebox had a red LED light and was labeled “Check Valve Is Defective”. ?The box next to it had a red LED labeled “Check Valve Is Defective LED light is Defective”.
My Quincy compressor has 2 relief valves in case one fails.
--
Jerry P
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans.
"You can observe a lot by watching."? Yogi Berra
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Re: Air Compressor Big and Small- David Kumm Style
I saw a Quincy unit in a shop with two small boxes next to the pressure relief valve. ?Onebox had a red LED light and was labeled “Check Valve Is Defective”. ?The box next to it had a red LED labeled “Check Valve Is Defective LED light is Defective”.
David Best
https://www.instagram.com/davidpbest/
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My Quincy compressor has 2 relief valves in case one fails.
--
Jerry P
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans.
"You can observe a lot by watching."? Yogi Berra
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By the way, someone can confirm, but the diagram says something about 24 VAC, so I guess 24V AC.
Bill
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Here is the RL 140 electrical diagram page for the auto start solution. Automatisk is the german version of automatic or automated, this what I was told :).
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Thanks Bill. From your write up it appears that the machine starts when contacts 7 & 8 are shorted together.
Anyone, with this setup should be able to see an AC or DC voltage on one of the contacts, assuming something under 30V. Once you confirm the voltage level for safety reason, you should be able to short the two manually with a wire or a switch to confirm the start and stop.
Once confirmed, add a relay that is controlled via remote. See my earlier write up in this thread.
One thing I realized after my last post that blue tooth might have a safety advantage due to the pairing nature. There are a bunch of BT relay control modules but they primarily seem to work with phone. Exception is the festool device, which may be worth exploring.
Imran
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On Jan 26, 2021, at 3:28 PM, Bill James via groups.io <xxrb2010@...> wrote: ?On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 11:04 AM, imranindiana wrote:
Do I understand correctly that in this position you can autostart/stop with a relay?
You are absolutely right, I reread the manual and it is for the Felder automated start solution. I do not know how this OEM Felder solution works, but at some point it opens and closes this circuit via terminal 7 and 8 according to the electric diagram coming with your machine. Bill
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Re: Auction in WA with unipoint RAS, Lift tables, Altendorf, Resaw Bandsaw Etc
Hi David:
“Plenty of power in Australia” is 200A at 400V of 3 phase power. I have 63A at 400V and it takes all of that to start my WB (15kW single motor plus various small motors for feed, rise and fall, etc.). Add on to this 7.5kW for the RL250 and 4kW for compressed air, plus 2.2kW for air conditioning and bugger all for lights. It really adds up fast. Everything must be off to start the WB; then I can turn on the other items.?
When I said both heads run (no transmission) on my WB, I should have clarified that I can electro-pneumatically lift one head or the other up, so that it does not engage, even though it is running. Thus, both heads start and run, but I can choose which head, or combo, gets used.?
For multiple motored machines, I would be able to engage or disengage whatever heads I want, and turn on (individually) what ever heads I want. More flexibility, more power, and more electrical required.?
My machine has 2 x 160mm extraction ports. 3 head machines have even more. WBs definitely ask for a lot of high-capacity services (power, extraction, air), but they are amazing machines to have or rent.?
Hope this adds to the discussion.?
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On 26 Jan 2021, at 11:04 pm, David Davies <myfinishingtouch@...> wrote:
? Jason, ? Are you in a commercial setting?? How much power is plenty of power?? As I look forward towards my retirement shop I'd like to have a multihead widebelt?and am not sure how much power I need to try and have available in the shop.?? Thanks, Dave Davies On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 6:26 AM Jason Holtz < jholtzy@...> wrote: You can certainly run only one head on a multiple head machine. Almost all will have independent motors and controls. I rent time on a 3 head 53" machine occasionally. They have head 3 off and I believe slightly higher for all but the last couple passes.
Multi head machines are usually much larger, in addition to their increased power consumption and dust collection requirements. When I went from a 37" to a 43" I had to upgrade the dust collector, but we have plenty of power.
Jason Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765
--
Jason
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
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Re: Air Compressor Big and Small- David Kumm Style
This was the relief valve that takes the pressure off the compressor itself, not the tank relief valve. Thank goodness the circuit breaker tripped before I had a full fire.
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My Quincy compressor has 2 relief valves in case one fails.
--
Jerry P
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans.
"You can observe a lot by watching."? Yogi Berra
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On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 11:04 AM, imranindiana wrote:
Do I understand correctly that in this position you can autostart/stop with a relay?
You are absolutely right, I reread the manual and it is for the Felder automated start solution. I do not know how this OEM Felder solution works, but at some point it opens and closes this circuit via terminal 7 and 8 according to the electric diagram coming with your machine. Bill
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Re: Air Compressor Big and Small- David Kumm Style
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of Jerry P
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 1:16 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Air Compressor Big and Small- David Kumm Style
?
My Quincy compressor has 2 relief valves in case one fails.
--
Jerry
P
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans.
"You can observe a lot by watching."? Yogi Berra
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Re: Air Compressor Big and Small- David Kumm Style
My Quincy compressor has 2 relief valves in case one fails.
--
Jerry P
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans.
"You can observe a lot by watching."? Yogi Berra
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Re: Air Compressor Big and Small- David Kumm Style
Thanks for the reminder on the cal air, I think I left mine on overnight- hope the shop didn’t go up in ?while I am at work...
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On Jan 26, 2021, at 12:43 PM, Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> wrote:
? I started with a California Air Tools compressor, but I tended to leave it on and the valve that releases the head pressure stuck one day and I came into the shop and the unit had almost caught fire, the motor was completely smoked and melted. So, I recently found a used Sil-Air and went thru it, the oil for them isn’t cheap, and one of the compressors (there are three on this one) wasn’t running. Fortunately I took the top off, manually turned the motor and it freed up and is running great now. This thing is so quiet you really have to listen if it’s running or not, definitely can’t hear it over other machines.?
I’ll keep my eyes open for more of these, you can just gang the compressors together to get whatever CFM you want, I think each head puts out about 2CFM, so mine runs a bit over 6CFM. That’s plenty for clamps and nailers, not good enough for air tools and most likely spraying, which I do very little of.
On Jan 26, 2021, at 10:30 AM, Anthony Quesada < tonymiga2@...> wrote:
Brian, I couldn’t agree more. ?When my dads' 40 gallon kicks on it seems like I have never heard the noise before. ?It startles me every time!?
On Jan 26, 2021, at 12:24 PM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote:
If that’s all the sand blasting you intend to do, then definitely look at no more than a 5hp unit. As for the smaller unit, look for quiet…. period. The most irritating noise in the shop is the compressor... and they start when you least expect.On Jan 26, 2021, at 9:46 AM, Anthony Quesada < tonymiga2@...> wrote:
Great comments and questions!
If previous experience is any indication, the blast cabinet will be used sporadically and extremely lightly by commercial standards, as I am a hobbyist that loves both metal and wood. ?I can see the cabinet getting used 15 minutes here and 20 minutes there with weeks in between without use. ? I am very, very much a beginner machinist/metal worker, but hope to develop the skills over time. ?
Love Brian's idea of getting a more "modest" 5HP compressor and being patient if the blast cabinet can't keep up. ?
Regarding the small compressor down line of the larger one.... I never would have thought of this, but thankfully it was mentioned here. ?Since most of my use can be served by a little pancake type compressor, I would view this as taking the nimble and quick scooter out to get a carton of milk from the corner store vs a large pickup truck with trailer behind. ? ?Both get the job done, but one is quieter, more efficient and quicker for the specific task.
Anthony?
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Re: X-Roll Festool quick clamp adapter T nuts
#diy
I would like to get the 3d file as well please. ?My email is elwinkershaw@....
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On Jan 26, 2021, at 8:31 AM, Uncle T. via groups.io <utplo@...> wrote:
? Hi Mike,? This is creatively elegant yet simple. I'm not in the position to purchase pneumatic clamps at this time, but I do have access to a 3D printer. I would love to give this a try on my K500S with X-Roll. Thanks for offering to send the print file, you can PM to me.? I like the idea of starting?#3D_Print (newb opinion) Matt
--
Elwin Kershaw
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Re: Air Compressor Big and Small- David Kumm Style
I started with a California Air Tools compressor, but I tended to leave it on and the valve that releases the head pressure stuck one day and I came into the shop and the unit had almost caught fire, the motor was completely smoked and melted. So, I recently found a used Sil-Air and went thru it, the oil for them isn’t cheap, and one of the compressors (there are three on this one) wasn’t running. Fortunately I took the top off, manually turned the motor and it freed up and is running great now. This thing is so quiet you really have to listen if it’s running or not, definitely can’t hear it over other machines.?
I’ll keep my eyes open for more of these, you can just gang the compressors together to get whatever CFM you want, I think each head puts out about 2CFM, so mine runs a bit over 6CFM. That’s plenty for clamps and nailers, not good enough for air tools and most likely spraying, which I do very little of.
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Show quoted text
On Jan 26, 2021, at 10:30 AM, Anthony Quesada < tonymiga2@...> wrote:
Brian, I couldn’t agree more. ?When my dads' 40 gallon kicks on it seems like I have never heard the noise before. ?It startles me every time!?
On Jan 26, 2021, at 12:24 PM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote:
If that’s all the sand blasting you intend to do, then definitely look at no more than a 5hp unit. As for the smaller unit, look for quiet…. period. The most irritating noise in the shop is the compressor... and they start when you least expect.On Jan 26, 2021, at 9:46 AM, Anthony Quesada < tonymiga2@...> wrote:
Great comments and questions!
If previous experience is any indication, the blast cabinet will be used sporadically and extremely lightly by commercial standards, as I am a hobbyist that loves both metal and wood. ?I can see the cabinet getting used 15 minutes here and 20 minutes there with weeks in between without use. ? I am very, very much a beginner machinist/metal worker, but hope to develop the skills over time. ?
Love Brian's idea of getting a more "modest" 5HP compressor and being patient if the blast cabinet can't keep up. ?
Regarding the small compressor down line of the larger one.... I never would have thought of this, but thankfully it was mentioned here. ?Since most of my use can be served by a little pancake type compressor, I would view this as taking the nimble and quick scooter out to get a carton of milk from the corner store vs a large pickup truck with trailer behind. ? ?Both get the job done, but one is quieter, more efficient and quicker for the specific task.
Anthony?
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Joe Jensen
imran
David Luckensmeyer
David P. Best