?

I agree James, but in today's world when your trying to sell equipment with a high price tag don't you think that you would him at least checked what the rocket scientists in marketing department were putting out there on the web. LOL. ?

John

JMK Services?

-------- Original message --------
From: "James Zhu james.zhu2@... [felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 2016-11-29 12:16 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "phil_moger@... [felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Re: See the new dust collector?

?

I think it is a typo.?

If it was 5 micron, I do not think the owner of bridge city would buy it because he is allergic to wood dust as mentioned in the following review of his new dust collector.

James

On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 10:21 AM, andy.giddings@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

?

As the filter appears to be 5 micron, seems more like a large dust distributor than a collector :-) Hope that's a misprint

?

I would like to thank everyone of you for all the information you have provide me . I have read every post very carefully and ended up with 6 pages of notes and hundred of questions. I have learned more her in 24 hours than i have in the last three months. I have a very hard time with details i get out of salesmen, I do know their final agenda. ?

So if you don't mind im going to ask you guys & you Julie a lot of questions.

Im going to work with one machine at a time so my pea sized brain does not explode and take more notes from you.
so before i start with my first machine i have generic things to mention.

for the one that said it will be fun spending someone else s money or something along that line, Please do! you all have hundred times or more knowledge thank I do. This is a one time thing for me and i will make mistakes, I am not going to be able and just run out and drop another 20k on a machine of I make that mistake.

my space:2800 Sf about 300 sf of office i really don't need Ill use one room for old stile drafting table and to set up a space for my CAD system the othe office i guess will be a crash pad when i cant get home because of snow and the rest I guess to store samples and finished product. what i like about the building is i have the high ceilings which is very hard to get up here

My Budget Its not unlimited. I have saved for over ten years for this day, that said I have 200k for this project not including the building.
That is for everything from the big tools down to the countersink bits. my girlfriend was not very happy when i told her100k if she findsout its twice that? will probably be living in my shop.

So my first question

Felder:I like Felder i think they make a good machine for the price, a little more machine than i really need but if i actually ever make anything to sell and sell it i want to have a little more machine than i think I need.

I plan to have Felder deliver install/set up and run the machines at my shop. althoiugh the extra cost i think it is well worth it for me buying machines i am not familer with. I am planing on doing a service contract with Felder yearly or bi yearly () the say they offer it but i don't know the costs yet) My biggest concern is service and parts and the timeline.... One of you mention this

and one last thing for now before I bore you to death

Electronics They scare me, I know they have come along way and are a lot better but in my building which will not be conditioned all the time can get in the mid teens in the winter. Felder doesn't seen there is a big issue but I do Thats my first and biggest question from you that work in areas that get this cold. I have started to look in to a systen to heat the machines? internally but that wont do any good for the cnc data screens.

Thank you all
Glen
and its 19 deg F tonight



?

-----Original Message-----
From: David Davies myfinishingtouch@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
To: felder-woodworking <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Nov 30, 2016 3:27 pm
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Hello all,

?

Glen,

? Something you'll want to consider is support...this forum is an excellent source of support for Felder equipment.? Felder may or may not monitor the forum but if you're having issues with your machines this forum can get you answers.

Dave

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 6:46 AM, Joe dohertyj@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

?

Glen,

Don't get obsessed with buying the best machine available. ?

It does not make sense to buy a Martin t27 shaper if you are a hobbyist.? You will be paying for features you will not take advantage of.? If you have a shop with multiple employees running long hours you get the maximum benefit from a very heavy duty large machine.? Some of the value of Martin is in the ability to run hour after hour day after day, if you run your shaper a few hours a week you may not need the extra robustness. That said, if I had the space and money was not an issue I would love to have a t27 with tenoning table powered power feeder arm.

One nice thing about heavy robust machines that most here will hopefully never learn about first hand is that a heavy machine is much better when something goes wrong.? If you are spinning a heavy cutter on a shaper and a knife breaks resulting is an unbalanced spinning object a light machine which worked well with a balanced cutter may start oscillating and the operator will have less time to shut everything down before something fails.? While it is possible to spin a 40 pound 12" cutter on a single trunnion f700z it is much better to use a Profile 45 in the event that something goes wrong for safety reasons.

I took delivery of a Profile 45z X-motion in March to replace my f700z and am very happy.? I especially love X-motion control.? Also, recognize that machines with elaborate control systems may have a limited lifespan.? What do you do when your touch screen goes out on a 10 year old machine?? Look at the value of used CNC routers to see what I mean.? I look for machines with generic modular control system ?components.? Felder uses such parts and has been good at helping me repair older Felder machines.? In 2009 Felder's service department provided updated electronics for my year 2000 cf731p combination machine.? It now has modular electronics that can be easily repaired. ?

Joe in New Orleans?

On Nov 30, 2016, at 4:45 AM, 'david@bestservices IMAP 2' david@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

?

I’ll second Dave Kumm’s comment that there isn’t a single brand that is best-in-breed at everything. ? My shop is mostly Felder (Kappa 400 xMotion, Profil 45, Dual 51, RL160), and I have owned various Felder machines since I slipped into the deep end of the pool in 2001. ? Felder isn’t perfect - no company is. ? I have also been a Martin dealer.? While I respect Martin's in-house machines, they are not without their own quirks, and some of their machines are made by other companies. ? No company covers the equipment territory with all best-in-breed machines. ? Even Marin has disgruntled customers. ? ?

If you have NO BUDGET CONSTRAINTS, you can do better than Felder in almost every category, but not from a single supplier IMO. ? If, on the other hand, you’re looking for exceptional value from a single source, Felder is a great choice for several categories of equipment. ? Felder is also a progressive growth company, comes up with terrific innovations from time to time (Silent Power cutterhead on their J/P’s to name just one), and invests heavily in R&D and manufacturing. ? In contrast, the Martin factory looks like a re-tooled tank manufacturing facility from WWII, and they have had their share management turmoil the past 10 years. ? I don’t want to dis Martin, they do make great machines, but they come at a price, and not everything in their line is on par.

Your Felder shopping list looks good. ? I would encourage you to consider an RL250 or the Al-Ko dust collector system instead of RL200. ? I’d consider alternatives to the FW950 for all the reasons mentioned by Lucky. ? I don’t know what an FB190 is, but if you’re looking for a bandsaw, the newer 24” machines from a number of suppliers are all basically the same IMO - minor variations, everyone chasing maximum resaw capacity. ? Felder used to OEM ACM bandsaws, now they make their own. ? Edgebanding machines are temperamental beasts and if you’re thinking of going into cabinet production full time, I’d encourage you to buy from a vendor who provides local support with 24 hour on-call service (which Felder does not have). ? John Ferandin (here on FOG) has recent experience with the Forka and might comment - trust his comments, he’s not easily bullshitted. ? Before you settle on the FAT300, have a good long look at Barth (available from Rangate or Martin). ? I have the Barth 500V and it’s my constant companion in the shop, even though I choked hard on the price, it’s worth it IMO.

Tooling your equipment is another deep subculture, and worthy of lots of thought and discussion before you buy. ? Mac’s Airtight Clamps are a “must have” IMO. ? There are better alternatives to the Felder parallel fence system from Brian and Mac (both here on FOG).? Aigner’s catalog will drain your bank account quickly unless you know more about how you’re going to work, you’ll be convinced you need everything they make. ? Rangate is a good source for shaper tooling and other goodies including Barth, Zuani, and they are very service oriented.

Harry at Felder is a terrific guy, and is one of a select few customer-facing people at Felder who actually knows woodworking and can convey the benefits of the equipment to an honest woodworker.? He is one hell of a nice guy, but a sales person nonetheless. ? Do your homework.

If you have specific questions on equipment or options, sing out - there are plenty of great resources right here on FOG to help spend your money.

David Best

On Nov 29, 2016, at 9:05 PM, David Kumm davekumm@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

--

Dave & Marie Davies

318-219-7868

?

Hi Rick
I would love to consider used equipment, and I should but here is my issues
I am not sure what i am looking at it may be clean but am I inheriting some one else problem, has the machine been work to death.

While i can make amazing things from raw wood, my skills, mechanical skills on working on repair of machinery is limited.
Location: I found some things of interest but they are 3000 miles away, cost to go look at it and if get it back here, and may have to work on it i can burn a lot of money fast.
As you said and i agree the are some machines I should buy used and some machines I would never buy used.

so what do you have for the saw, band saw and Wide belt. I was looking felder on the wide belt but from ones response i dropped it off my list with Felder.

if you don't mind,? tell me about you edge sander I dropped it of my list with Felder because at 10k i could not really see it . My and my old shop mate made our own, he was the mechanical guy i made the table , fence and the dust collection part. I think we less than a grand in it

Glen

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Fisher rickfisher.cbs@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
To: felder-woodworking <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Nov 30, 2016 5:37 pm
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Hello all,

?

Hey Glen.. ?

$200,000 is a decent chunk of money ..? I would still look at buying some used machinery simply because of the savings vs value. ?

Big Jointers don't seem hard to come by and they're such a simple tool.? You can pick up a 16" SCM or Griggio for 40-50 percent of new.. ?make sure it has a Tersa head or similar, and it will still be good for another 50 years. ? Shapers seem plentiful used as well, the power feeder is pretty much thrown in on a used shaper, but I can tell you its not on a new one. .lol?

A good used SCM T-130 is a common machine.. ?lots of power, lots of capacity ..?

My favorite tools are my slider, Bandsaw, Wide belt and edge sander. ? The edge sander is a Felder, ?really a great machine. ??

You might want to check out Festool as well for smaller machines..?

?

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 5:16 PM, GLEN chris3645@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

?

I would like to thank everyone of you for all the information you have provide me . I have read every post very carefully and ended up with 6 pages of notes and hundred of questions. I have learned more her in 24 hours than i have in the last three months. I have a very hard time with details i get out of salesmen, I do know their final agenda. ?

So if you don't mind im going to ask you guys & you Julie a lot of questions.

Im going to work with one machine at a time so my pea sized brain does not explode and take more notes from you.
so before i start with my first machine i have generic things to mention.

for the one that said it will be fun spending someone else s money or something along that line, Please do! you all have hundred times or more knowledge thank I do. This is a one time thing for me and i will make mistakes, I am not going to be able and just run out and drop another 20k on a machine of I make that mistake.

my space:2800 Sf about 300 sf of office i really don't need Ill use one room for old stile drafting table and to set up a space for my CAD system the othe office i guess will be a crash pad when i cant get home because of snow and the rest I guess to store samples and finished product. what i like about the building is i have the high ceilings which is very hard to get up here

My Budget Its not unlimited. I have saved for over ten years for this day, that said I have 200k for this project not including the building.
That is for everything from the big tools down to the countersink bits. my girlfriend was not very happy when i told her100k if she findsout its twice that? will probably be living in my shop.

So my first question

Felder:I like Felder i think they make a good machine for the price, a little more machine than i really need but if i actually ever make anything to sell and sell it i want to have a little more machine than i think I need.

I plan to have Felder deliver install/set up and run the machines at my shop. althoiugh the extra cost i think it is well worth it for me buying machines i am not familer with. I am planing on doing a service contract with Felder yearly or bi yearly () the say they offer it but i don't know the costs yet) My biggest concern is service and parts and the timeline.... One of you mention this

and one last thing for now before I bore you to death

Electronics They scare me, I know they have come along way and are a lot better but in my building which will not be conditioned all the time can get in the mid teens in the winter. Felder doesn't seen there is a big issue but I do Thats my first and biggest question from you that work in areas that get this cold. I have started to look in to a systen to heat the machines? internally but that wont do any good for the cnc data screens.

Thank you all
Glen
and its 19 deg F tonight



?

-----Original Message-----
From: David Davies myfinishingtouch@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
To: felder-woodworking <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Nov 30, 2016 3:27 pm
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Hello all,

?

Glen,

? Something you'll want to consider is support...this forum is an excellent source of support for Felder equipment.? Felder may or may not monitor the forum but if you're having issues with your machines this forum can get you answers.

Dave

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 6:46 AM, Joe dohertyj@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

?

Glen,

Don't get obsessed with buying the best machine available. ?

It does not make sense to buy a Martin t27 shaper if you are a hobbyist.? You will be paying for features you will not take advantage of.? If you have a shop with multiple employees running long hours you get the maximum benefit from a very heavy duty large machine.? Some of the value of Martin is in the ability to run hour after hour day after day, if you run your shaper a few hours a week you may not need the extra robustness. That said, if I had the space and money was not an issue I would love to have a t27 with tenoning table powered power feeder arm.

One nice thing about heavy robust machines that most here will hopefully never learn about first hand is that a heavy machine is much better when something goes wrong.? If you are spinning a heavy cutter on a shaper and a knife breaks resulting is an unbalanced spinning object a light machine which worked well with a balanced cutter may start oscillating and the operator will have less time to shut everything down before something fails.? While it is possible to spin a 40 pound 12" cutter on a single trunnion f700z it is much better to use a Profile 45 in the event that something goes wrong for safety reasons.

I took delivery of a Profile 45z X-motion in March to replace my f700z and am very happy.? I especially love X-motion control.? Also, recognize that machines with elaborate control systems may have a limited lifespan.? What do you do when your touch screen goes out on a 10 year old machine?? Look at the value of used CNC routers to see what I mean.? I look for machines with generic modular control system ?components.? Felder uses such parts and has been good at helping me repair older Felder machines.? In 2009 Felder's service department provided updated electronics for my year 2000 cf731p combination machine.? It now has modular electronics that can be easily repaired. ?

Joe in New Orleans?

On Nov 30, 2016, at 4:45 AM, 'david@bestservices IMAP 2' david@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

?

I’ll second Dave Kumm’s comment that there isn’t a single brand that is best-in-breed at everything. ? My shop is mostly Felder (Kappa 400 xMotion, Profil 45, Dual 51, RL160), and I have owned various Felder machines since I slipped into the deep end of the pool in 2001. ? Felder isn’t perfect - no company is. ? I have also been a Martin dealer.? While I respect Martin's in-house machines, they are not without their own quirks, and some of their machines are made by other companies. ? No company covers the equipment territory with all best-in-breed machines. ? Even Marin has disgruntled customers. ? ?

If you have NO BUDGET CONSTRAINTS, you can do better than Felder in almost every category, but not from a single supplier IMO. ? If, on the other hand, you’re looking for exceptional value from a single source, Felder is a great choice for several categories of equipment. ? Felder is also a progressive growth company, comes up with terrific innovations from time to time (Silent Power cutterhead on their J/P’s to name just one), and invests heavily in R&D and manufacturing. ? In contrast, the Martin factory looks like a re-tooled tank manufacturing facility from WWII, and they have had their share management turmoil the past 10 years. ? I don’t want to dis Martin, they do make great machines, but they come at a price, and not everything in their line is on par.

Your Felder shopping list looks good. ? I would encourage you to consider an RL250 or the Al-Ko dust collector system instead of RL200. ? I’d consider alternatives to the FW950 for all the reasons mentioned by Lucky. ? I don’t know what an FB190 is, but if you’re looking for a bandsaw, the newer 24” machines from a number of suppliers are all basically the same IMO - minor variations, everyone chasing maximum resaw capacity. ? Felder used to OEM ACM bandsaws, now they make their own. ? Edgebanding machines are temperamental beasts and if you’re thinking of going into cabinet production full time, I’d encourage you to buy from a vendor who provides local support with 24 hour on-call service (which Felder does not have). ? John Ferandin (here on FOG) has recent experience with the Forka and might comment - trust his comments, he’s not easily bullshitted. ? Before you settle on the FAT300, have a good long look at Barth (available from Rangate or Martin). ? I have the Barth 500V and it’s my constant companion in the shop, even though I choked hard on the price, it’s worth it IMO.

Tooling your equipment is another deep subculture, and worthy of lots of thought and discussion before you buy. ? Mac’s Airtight Clamps are a “must have” IMO. ? There are better alternatives to the Felder parallel fence system from Brian and Mac (both here on FOG).? Aigner’s catalog will drain your bank account quickly unless you know more about how you’re going to work, you’ll be convinced you need everything they make. ? Rangate is a good source for shaper tooling and other goodies including Barth, Zuani, and they are very service oriented.

Harry at Felder is a terrific guy, and is one of a select few customer-facing people at Felder who actually knows woodworking and can convey the benefits of the equipment to an honest woodworker.? He is one hell of a nice guy, but a sales person nonetheless. ? Do your homework.

If you have specific questions on equipment or options, sing out - there are plenty of great resources right here on FOG to help spend your money.

David Best

On Nov 29, 2016, at 9:05 PM, David Kumm davekumm@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

--

Dave & Marie Davies

318-219-7868

?

I would like to thank everyone of you for all the information you have provide me . I have read every post very carefully and ended up with 6 pages of notes and hundred of questions. I have learned more her in 24 hours than i have in the last three months. I have a very hard time with details i get out of salesmen, I do know their final agenda. ?

So if you don't mind im going to ask you guys & you Julie a lot of questions.

Im going to work with one machine at a time so my pea sized brain does not explode and take more notes from you.
so before i start with my first machine i have generic things to mention.

for the one that said it will be fun spending someone else s money or something along that line, Please do! you all have hundred times or more knowledge thank I do. This is a one time thing for me and i will make mistakes, I am not going to be able and just run out and drop another 20k on a machine of I make that mistake.

my space:2800 Sf about 300 sf of office i really don't need Ill use one room for old stile drafting table and to set up a space for my CAD system the othe office i guess will be a crash pad when i cant get home because of snow and the rest I guess to store samples and finished product. what i like about the building is i have the high ceilings which is very hard to get up here

My Budget Its not unlimited. I have saved for over ten years for this day, that said I have 200k for this project not including the building.
That is for everything from the big tools down to the countersink bits. my girlfriend was not very happy when i told her100k if she findsout its twice that? will probably be living in my shop.

So my first question

Felder:I like Felder i think they make a good machine for the price, a little more machine than i really need but if i actually ever make anything to sell and sell it i want to have a little more machine than i think I need.

I plan to have Felder deliver install/set up and run the machines at my shop. althoiugh the extra cost i think it is well worth it for me buying machines i am not familer with. I am planing on doing a service contract with Felder yearly or bi yearly () the say they offer it but i don't know the costs yet) My biggest concern is service and parts and the timeline.... One of you mention this

and one last thing for now before I bore you to death

Electronics They scare me, I know they have come along way and are a lot better but in my building which will not be conditioned all the time can get in the mid teens in the winter. Felder doesn't seen there is a big issue but I do Thats my first and biggest question from you that work in areas that get this cold. I have started to look in to a systen to heat the machines? internally but that wont do any good for the cnc data screens.

Thank you all
Glen
and its 19 deg F tonight



?

-----Original Message-----
From: David Davies myfinishingtouch@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
To: felder-woodworking <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Nov 30, 2016 3:27 pm
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Hello all,

?

Glen,

? Something you'll want to consider is support...this forum is an excellent source of support for Felder equipment.? Felder may or may not monitor the forum but if you're having issues with your machines this forum can get you answers.

Dave

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 6:46 AM, Joe dohertyj@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

?

Glen,

Don't get obsessed with buying the best machine available. ?

It does not make sense to buy a Martin t27 shaper if you are a hobbyist.? You will be paying for features you will not take advantage of.? If you have a shop with multiple employees running long hours you get the maximum benefit from a very heavy duty large machine.? Some of the value of Martin is in the ability to run hour after hour day after day, if you run your shaper a few hours a week you may not need the extra robustness. That said, if I had the space and money was not an issue I would love to have a t27 with tenoning table powered power feeder arm.

One nice thing about heavy robust machines that most here will hopefully never learn about first hand is that a heavy machine is much better when something goes wrong.? If you are spinning a heavy cutter on a shaper and a knife breaks resulting is an unbalanced spinning object a light machine which worked well with a balanced cutter may start oscillating and the operator will have less time to shut everything down before something fails.? While it is possible to spin a 40 pound 12" cutter on a single trunnion f700z it is much better to use a Profile 45 in the event that something goes wrong for safety reasons.

I took delivery of a Profile 45z X-motion in March to replace my f700z and am very happy.? I especially love X-motion control.? Also, recognize that machines with elaborate control systems may have a limited lifespan.? What do you do when your touch screen goes out on a 10 year old machine?? Look at the value of used CNC routers to see what I mean.? I look for machines with generic modular control system ?components.? Felder uses such parts and has been good at helping me repair older Felder machines.? In 2009 Felder's service department provided updated electronics for my year 2000 cf731p combination machine.? It now has modular electronics that can be easily repaired. ?

Joe in New Orleans?

On Nov 30, 2016, at 4:45 AM, 'david@bestservices IMAP 2' david@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

?

I’ll second Dave Kumm’s comment that there isn’t a single brand that is best-in-breed at everything. ? My shop is mostly Felder (Kappa 400 xMotion, Profil 45, Dual 51, RL160), and I have owned various Felder machines since I slipped into the deep end of the pool in 2001. ? Felder isn’t perfect - no company is. ? I have also been a Martin dealer.? While I respect Martin's in-house machines, they are not without their own quirks, and some of their machines are made by other companies. ? No company covers the equipment territory with all best-in-breed machines. ? Even Marin has disgruntled customers. ? ?

If you have NO BUDGET CONSTRAINTS, you can do better than Felder in almost every category, but not from a single supplier IMO. ? If, on the other hand, you’re looking for exceptional value from a single source, Felder is a great choice for several categories of equipment. ? Felder is also a progressive growth company, comes up with terrific innovations from time to time (Silent Power cutterhead on their J/P’s to name just one), and invests heavily in R&D and manufacturing. ? In contrast, the Martin factory looks like a re-tooled tank manufacturing facility from WWII, and they have had their share management turmoil the past 10 years. ? I don’t want to dis Martin, they do make great machines, but they come at a price, and not everything in their line is on par.

Your Felder shopping list looks good. ? I would encourage you to consider an RL250 or the Al-Ko dust collector system instead of RL200. ? I’d consider alternatives to the FW950 for all the reasons mentioned by Lucky. ? I don’t know what an FB190 is, but if you’re looking for a bandsaw, the newer 24” machines from a number of suppliers are all basically the same IMO - minor variations, everyone chasing maximum resaw capacity. ? Felder used to OEM ACM bandsaws, now they make their own. ? Edgebanding machines are temperamental beasts and if you’re thinking of going into cabinet production full time, I’d encourage you to buy from a vendor who provides local support with 24 hour on-call service (which Felder does not have). ? John Ferandin (here on FOG) has recent experience with the Forka and might comment - trust his comments, he’s not easily bullshitted. ? Before you settle on the FAT300, have a good long look at Barth (available from Rangate or Martin). ? I have the Barth 500V and it’s my constant companion in the shop, even though I choked hard on the price, it’s worth it IMO.

Tooling your equipment is another deep subculture, and worthy of lots of thought and discussion before you buy. ? Mac’s Airtight Clamps are a “must have” IMO. ? There are better alternatives to the Felder parallel fence system from Brian and Mac (both here on FOG).? Aigner’s catalog will drain your bank account quickly unless you know more about how you’re going to work, you’ll be convinced you need everything they make. ? Rangate is a good source for shaper tooling and other goodies including Barth, Zuani, and they are very service oriented.

Harry at Felder is a terrific guy, and is one of a select few customer-facing people at Felder who actually knows woodworking and can convey the benefits of the equipment to an honest woodworker.? He is one hell of a nice guy, but a sales person nonetheless. ? Do your homework.

If you have specific questions on equipment or options, sing out - there are plenty of great resources right here on FOG to help spend your money.

David Best

On Nov 29, 2016, at 9:05 PM, David Kumm davekumm@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

--

Dave & Marie Davies

318-219-7868

?

While looking for something else I happen to stumble onto this video of a tour of the Northfield factory.? Pretty interesting and perhaps the last of the made in USA woodworking equipment.? Enjoy.

I hope this link works.? If not try a Youtube search for Northfield factory tour.

Scott

?

Glen,

Don't get obsessed with buying the best machine available. ?

It does not make sense to buy a Martin t27 shaper if you are a hobbyist.? You will be paying for features you will not take advantage of.? If you have a shop with multiple employees running long hours you get the maximum benefit from a very heavy duty large machine.? Some of the value of Martin is in the ability to run hour after hour day after day, if you run your shaper a few hours a week you may not need the extra robustness. That said, if I had the space and money was not an issue I would love to have a t27 with tenoning table powered power feeder arm.

One nice thing about heavy robust machines that most here will hopefully never learn about first hand is that a heavy machine is much better when something goes wrong.? If you are spinning a heavy cutter on a shaper and a knife breaks resulting is an unbalanced spinning object a light machine which worked well with a balanced cutter may start oscillating and the operator will have less time to shut everything down before something fails.? While it is possible to spin a 40 pound 12" cutter on a single trunnion f700z it is much better to use a Profile 45 in the event that something goes wrong for safety reasons.

I took delivery of a Profile 45z X-motion in March to replace my f700z and am very happy.? I especially love X-motion control.? Also, recognize that machines with elaborate control systems may have a limited lifespan.? What do you do when your touch screen goes out on a 10 year old machine?? Look at the value of used CNC routers to see what I mean.? I look for machines with generic modular control system ?components.? Felder uses such parts and has been good at helping me repair older Felder machines.? In 2009 Felder's service department provided updated electronics for my year 2000 cf731p combination machine.? It now has modular electronics that can be easily repaired. ?

Joe in New Orleans?

On Nov 30, 2016, at 4:45 AM, 'david@bestservices IMAP 2' david@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

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I’ll second Dave Kumm’s comment that there isn’t a single brand that is best-in-breed at everything. ? My shop is mostly Felder (Kappa 400 xMotion, Profil 45, Dual 51, RL160), and I have owned various Felder machines since I slipped into the deep end of the pool in 2001. ? Felder isn’t perfect - no company is. ? I have also been a Martin dealer.? While I respect Martin's in-house machines, they are not without their own quirks, and some of their machines are made by other companies. ? No company covers the equipment territory with all best-in-breed machines. ? Even Marin has disgruntled customers. ? ?

If you have NO BUDGET CONSTRAINTS, you can do better than Felder in almost every category, but not from a single supplier IMO. ? If, on the other hand, you’re looking for exceptional value from a single source, Felder is a great choice for several categories of equipment. ? Felder is also a progressive growth company, comes up with terrific innovations from time to time (Silent Power cutterhead on their J/P’s to name just one), and invests heavily in R&D and manufacturing. ? In contrast, the Martin factory looks like a re-tooled tank manufacturing facility from WWII, and they have had their share management turmoil the past 10 years. ? I don’t want to dis Martin, they do make great machines, but they come at a price, and not everything in their line is on par.

Your Felder shopping list looks good. ? I would encourage you to consider an RL250 or the Al-Ko dust collector system instead of RL200. ? I’d consider alternatives to the FW950 for all the reasons mentioned by Lucky. ? I don’t know what an FB190 is, but if you’re looking for a bandsaw, the newer 24” machines from a number of suppliers are all basically the same IMO - minor variations, everyone chasing maximum resaw capacity. ? Felder used to OEM ACM bandsaws, now they make their own. ? Edgebanding machines are temperamental beasts and if you’re thinking of going into cabinet production full time, I’d encourage you to buy from a vendor who provides local support with 24 hour on-call service (which Felder does not have). ? John Ferandin (here on FOG) has recent experience with the Forka and might comment - trust his comments, he’s not easily bullshitted. ? Before you settle on the FAT300, have a good long look at Barth (available from Rangate or Martin). ? I have the Barth 500V and it’s my constant companion in the shop, even though I choked hard on the price, it’s worth it IMO.

Tooling your equipment is another deep subculture, and worthy of lots of thought and discussion before you buy. ? Mac’s Airtight Clamps are a “must have” IMO. ? There are better alternatives to the Felder parallel fence system from Brian and Mac (both here on FOG).? Aigner’s catalog will drain your bank account quickly unless you know more about how you’re going to work, you’ll be convinced you need everything they make. ? Rangate is a good source for shaper tooling and other goodies including Barth, Zuani, and they are very service oriented.

Harry at Felder is a terrific guy, and is one of a select few customer-facing people at Felder who actually knows woodworking and can convey the benefits of the equipment to an honest woodworker.? He is one hell of a nice guy, but a sales person nonetheless. ? Do your homework.

If you have specific questions on equipment or options, sing out - there are plenty of great resources right here on FOG to help spend your money.

David Best

On Nov 29, 2016, at 9:05 PM, David Kumm davekumm@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Yes, spending money that isn't ours is certainly fun!? You have received some excellent advice already, but I'll add my two cents.

Dave K. and I are very much in the same school regarding machinery? ( in a weak moment, I sold my Martin shaper to him).? I've been continuously upgrading my equipment over decades and am likely to win any equipment diversity contest on this or any other forum.
Figuring out what sort of work you want to make would be a good path toward ending up with the best collection of machinery.?
Depending on how mechanically inclined you are and how much time you want to spend on such things, you might consider some full industrial items in the used category.?
Band saws, planers and jointers were optimized years ago with the exception of guides and cutterhead.? My planer is an older Martin, my jointer an older Panhans.
Northfield still produces new versions of old designs that have been performing the job in production shops with decades of daily use. They have their own version of the carbide spiral cutterhead, but have no experience with it.? Don't know how long they will be around, but you can still talk to the third or forth generation maker and get a history on any machine down to the bearings originally installed.?? Counts large in my estimation.? They, like many of the old school makers are likely to be a victim of their own overly robust machines and innovation from makers like Felder.?
Think Tannewitz when you look at band saws.? Silly cheap used and bulletproof.
Sliding table saws are an area that makes sense to buy new.? I have a Felder K975 and really like the saw.
Shapers.? I'm into multiplicity like Dave Keith.? I have a older Martin tilting, and SCMI T130, two Northfield SP's and a Yates number 4.? I have the space and dislike changing set ups.
I should probably get back to work...
Marlowe McGraw

On Nov 30, 2016 9:34 AM, "David Davies myfinishingtouch@... [felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

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I can see that this is going to be a fun conversation as we try to help Glen spend his money.

Dave

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 9:13 AM, David Kumm davekumm@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

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Glen, to mess with your head a little more, here is another option.? If you have the room you could start with a medium sized shaper with a sliding table like the F700.? It is as versatile as any shaper out there.? It does have some limitations but only use will tell you what they are in your world.? I would then supplement the F700 with a heavy fixed table production type machine with a bigger? ( 260 minimum ) fence.? A two shaper set up pretty much eliminates the need for the electronic bells and whistles that are efficient for a one machine shop but prone to failure before the mechanicals.

I have four shapers ( really only use three? but I like machines ) that in total cost less than a fully equipped Format.? Three were unused prior to my purchase.? Felder F7 precursor to the F700, Knapp saw shaper, SCMI T130, and Martin T21.

Knapp benefit is better fence and router spindle that rotates up to 23000.

SCMI has numerical fence on both sides and handles the Aigner plates better than the Felder.? Much more of a production machine although built nothing like the old Martin.

Martin is just cool but built with heavy components and precision large bearings in a drip oil lubrication system that will outlast all the others combined.? As long as they haven't been bastardized by some well meaning clueless type who swapped the bearings for sealed, you can get a machine that will outlast you for about 4K.? Same with T 130.

When I'm in entry or cabinet door mode, I set up the machines and don't change settings maybe for weeks or months depending on my lack of commitment.

I'd also second a look at an edge sander.? Mine is an older Oakley but gets used every time I saw joint or plane.

I guess my long winded point is to be careful spending for all new high end machinery up front until you develop what you really need to make your life happy.? Multiple sliding saws, shapers, and bandsaws make me happy while others like the T27 type capabilities.? Dave

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From: felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Jason Holtz jholtzy@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 9:38 AM
To: felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [felder-woodworking] Re: hello all

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Hi Glen,

I work in a co-op shop that includes 4 professional furniture makers, and a couple hobbyists as well. We have 4000 square feet of space, and redundancy in many machine areas-saws in particular. Thank goodness.

We have only one Felder in house, an early 2000's KF700 saw/shaper combo. This was a three phase vfd converted to single phase arrangement. The vfd failed on it a few years ago, and Felder was very helpful in helping me diagnose the problem and implement a solution (which was not replacing the $1900 vfd, but changing out the electrics to run 3 phase as we have it available). That said, this machine was down for nearly 3 months if I recall correctly. We had to wait for parts to come from Austria more than once. If that was our only saw, we'd have been sunk. Most of our machines are pretty old school, but commercial grade for the most part. Probably like what you may have been used to before. Yes, some of them have an aftermarket digital readout on them but that's the extent of higher technology with the exception of spiral cutterheads.?

The reason for this is two fold. A. we are custom furniture makers who don't make a ton of money, and didn't make it previously doing something else. It's a tough business. B. There is just not much to go wrong on machines that don't have all the bells and whistles of motorized fences, CNC controls, vfd converters, etc. Would it be nice? Sure it would. Can you do without it and still make beautiful things? Absolutely. Would those options make me that much more efficient to be able to afford those machines? I seriously doubt it. I bet they are a joy to use, but so is my all manual Panhans slider, or my old Oliver 299 planer, and my Eckstrom Carlson edge sander. I'd love to work in an all Martin shop, but that's not really an option for me, or most people that need to make a living with their tools.

So my message is pragmatic. Buy what you want, but don't feel like you need to blow your whole wad on machinery. You can make what you want with whatever you happen to buy. Some of the most talented woodworkers I know make due with less than a quarter of the equipment budget you're pondering. You could save a lot of money and spend it taking classes from the best people in the business. They would likely be in shops that were not as well appointed as what you are talking about setting up.

I do like our Felder. Its a fine machine. It has its quirks, and some of them have been addressed on the newer machines. I didn't buy this one, so I can't say that I'd buy another but I think my partner would indeed.

Jason

Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture

Welcome to J. Holtz Furniture. I specialize in building custom furniture and built-in cabinetry, including the occasional kitchen. I also build doors and ...

3307 Snelling Ave. South

Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765

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Dave & Marie Davies

318-219-7868