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Hi Rick
I would love to consider used equipment, and I should but here is my issues
I am not sure what i am looking at it may be clean but am I inheriting some one else problem, has the machine been work to death.

While i can make amazing things from raw wood, my skills, mechanical skills on working on repair of machinery is limited.
Location: I found some things of interest but they are 3000 miles away, cost to go look at it and if get it back here, and may have to work on it i can burn a lot of money fast.
As you said and i agree the are some machines I should buy used and some machines I would never buy used.

so what do you have for the saw, band saw and Wide belt. I was looking felder on the wide belt but from ones response i dropped it off my list with Felder.

if you don't mind,? tell me about you edge sander I dropped it of my list with Felder because at 10k i could not really see it . My and my old shop mate made our own, he was the mechanical guy i made the table , fence and the dust collection part. I think we less than a grand in it

Glen

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Fisher rickfisher.cbs@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
To: felder-woodworking <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Nov 30, 2016 5:37 pm
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Hello all,

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Hey Glen.. ?

$200,000 is a decent chunk of money ..? I would still look at buying some used machinery simply because of the savings vs value. ?

Big Jointers don't seem hard to come by and they're such a simple tool.? You can pick up a 16" SCM or Griggio for 40-50 percent of new.. ?make sure it has a Tersa head or similar, and it will still be good for another 50 years. ? Shapers seem plentiful used as well, the power feeder is pretty much thrown in on a used shaper, but I can tell you its not on a new one. .lol?

A good used SCM T-130 is a common machine.. ?lots of power, lots of capacity ..?

My favorite tools are my slider, Bandsaw, Wide belt and edge sander. ? The edge sander is a Felder, ?really a great machine. ??

You might want to check out Festool as well for smaller machines..?

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On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 5:16 PM, GLEN chris3645@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

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I would like to thank everyone of you for all the information you have provide me . I have read every post very carefully and ended up with 6 pages of notes and hundred of questions. I have learned more her in 24 hours than i have in the last three months. I have a very hard time with details i get out of salesmen, I do know their final agenda. ?

So if you don't mind im going to ask you guys & you Julie a lot of questions.

Im going to work with one machine at a time so my pea sized brain does not explode and take more notes from you.
so before i start with my first machine i have generic things to mention.

for the one that said it will be fun spending someone else s money or something along that line, Please do! you all have hundred times or more knowledge thank I do. This is a one time thing for me and i will make mistakes, I am not going to be able and just run out and drop another 20k on a machine of I make that mistake.

my space:2800 Sf about 300 sf of office i really don't need Ill use one room for old stile drafting table and to set up a space for my CAD system the othe office i guess will be a crash pad when i cant get home because of snow and the rest I guess to store samples and finished product. what i like about the building is i have the high ceilings which is very hard to get up here

My Budget Its not unlimited. I have saved for over ten years for this day, that said I have 200k for this project not including the building.
That is for everything from the big tools down to the countersink bits. my girlfriend was not very happy when i told her100k if she findsout its twice that? will probably be living in my shop.

So my first question

Felder:I like Felder i think they make a good machine for the price, a little more machine than i really need but if i actually ever make anything to sell and sell it i want to have a little more machine than i think I need.

I plan to have Felder deliver install/set up and run the machines at my shop. althoiugh the extra cost i think it is well worth it for me buying machines i am not familer with. I am planing on doing a service contract with Felder yearly or bi yearly () the say they offer it but i don't know the costs yet) My biggest concern is service and parts and the timeline.... One of you mention this

and one last thing for now before I bore you to death

Electronics They scare me, I know they have come along way and are a lot better but in my building which will not be conditioned all the time can get in the mid teens in the winter. Felder doesn't seen there is a big issue but I do Thats my first and biggest question from you that work in areas that get this cold. I have started to look in to a systen to heat the machines? internally but that wont do any good for the cnc data screens.

Thank you all
Glen
and its 19 deg F tonight



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-----Original Message-----
From: David Davies myfinishingtouch@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
To: felder-woodworking <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Nov 30, 2016 3:27 pm
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Hello all,

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Glen,

? Something you'll want to consider is support...this forum is an excellent source of support for Felder equipment.? Felder may or may not monitor the forum but if you're having issues with your machines this forum can get you answers.

Dave

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 6:46 AM, Joe dohertyj@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

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Glen,

Don't get obsessed with buying the best machine available. ?

It does not make sense to buy a Martin t27 shaper if you are a hobbyist.? You will be paying for features you will not take advantage of.? If you have a shop with multiple employees running long hours you get the maximum benefit from a very heavy duty large machine.? Some of the value of Martin is in the ability to run hour after hour day after day, if you run your shaper a few hours a week you may not need the extra robustness. That said, if I had the space and money was not an issue I would love to have a t27 with tenoning table powered power feeder arm.

One nice thing about heavy robust machines that most here will hopefully never learn about first hand is that a heavy machine is much better when something goes wrong.? If you are spinning a heavy cutter on a shaper and a knife breaks resulting is an unbalanced spinning object a light machine which worked well with a balanced cutter may start oscillating and the operator will have less time to shut everything down before something fails.? While it is possible to spin a 40 pound 12" cutter on a single trunnion f700z it is much better to use a Profile 45 in the event that something goes wrong for safety reasons.

I took delivery of a Profile 45z X-motion in March to replace my f700z and am very happy.? I especially love X-motion control.? Also, recognize that machines with elaborate control systems may have a limited lifespan.? What do you do when your touch screen goes out on a 10 year old machine?? Look at the value of used CNC routers to see what I mean.? I look for machines with generic modular control system ?components.? Felder uses such parts and has been good at helping me repair older Felder machines.? In 2009 Felder's service department provided updated electronics for my year 2000 cf731p combination machine.? It now has modular electronics that can be easily repaired. ?

Joe in New Orleans?

On Nov 30, 2016, at 4:45 AM, 'david@bestservices IMAP 2' david@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

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I’ll second Dave Kumm’s comment that there isn’t a single brand that is best-in-breed at everything. ? My shop is mostly Felder (Kappa 400 xMotion, Profil 45, Dual 51, RL160), and I have owned various Felder machines since I slipped into the deep end of the pool in 2001. ? Felder isn’t perfect - no company is. ? I have also been a Martin dealer.? While I respect Martin's in-house machines, they are not without their own quirks, and some of their machines are made by other companies. ? No company covers the equipment territory with all best-in-breed machines. ? Even Marin has disgruntled customers. ? ?

If you have NO BUDGET CONSTRAINTS, you can do better than Felder in almost every category, but not from a single supplier IMO. ? If, on the other hand, you’re looking for exceptional value from a single source, Felder is a great choice for several categories of equipment. ? Felder is also a progressive growth company, comes up with terrific innovations from time to time (Silent Power cutterhead on their J/P’s to name just one), and invests heavily in R&D and manufacturing. ? In contrast, the Martin factory looks like a re-tooled tank manufacturing facility from WWII, and they have had their share management turmoil the past 10 years. ? I don’t want to dis Martin, they do make great machines, but they come at a price, and not everything in their line is on par.

Your Felder shopping list looks good. ? I would encourage you to consider an RL250 or the Al-Ko dust collector system instead of RL200. ? I’d consider alternatives to the FW950 for all the reasons mentioned by Lucky. ? I don’t know what an FB190 is, but if you’re looking for a bandsaw, the newer 24” machines from a number of suppliers are all basically the same IMO - minor variations, everyone chasing maximum resaw capacity. ? Felder used to OEM ACM bandsaws, now they make their own. ? Edgebanding machines are temperamental beasts and if you’re thinking of going into cabinet production full time, I’d encourage you to buy from a vendor who provides local support with 24 hour on-call service (which Felder does not have). ? John Ferandin (here on FOG) has recent experience with the Forka and might comment - trust his comments, he’s not easily bullshitted. ? Before you settle on the FAT300, have a good long look at Barth (available from Rangate or Martin). ? I have the Barth 500V and it’s my constant companion in the shop, even though I choked hard on the price, it’s worth it IMO.

Tooling your equipment is another deep subculture, and worthy of lots of thought and discussion before you buy. ? Mac’s Airtight Clamps are a “must have” IMO. ? There are better alternatives to the Felder parallel fence system from Brian and Mac (both here on FOG).? Aigner’s catalog will drain your bank account quickly unless you know more about how you’re going to work, you’ll be convinced you need everything they make. ? Rangate is a good source for shaper tooling and other goodies including Barth, Zuani, and they are very service oriented.

Harry at Felder is a terrific guy, and is one of a select few customer-facing people at Felder who actually knows woodworking and can convey the benefits of the equipment to an honest woodworker.? He is one hell of a nice guy, but a sales person nonetheless. ? Do your homework.

If you have specific questions on equipment or options, sing out - there are plenty of great resources right here on FOG to help spend your money.

David Best

On Nov 29, 2016, at 9:05 PM, David Kumm davekumm@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

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Dave & Marie Davies

318-219-7868