Re: Raising an FB710 off its crate
Greetings, I recently bought a FB 710 in my workshop. We inserted it with a forklift. The situation in my workshop was not like yours. So we could move easily. However, when we needed to move the machine later, we found that we could move it with the help of 2 or 3 people by placing a blanket or fabric under it. The machine is not that heavy, of course, the condition of your place is very important in this regard. Please share photos.
--
Burak 骋ü谤别谤
Türkiye (owner Ad 951-K740S-FB710)
gurerwoodcraft/Instagram?
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Re: Raising an FB710 off its crate
Doug,
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We had the same issue with my SCM s640p, which is and ACM saw.? It is just under 8 feet tall and originally I was putting it in my garage shop with a 7' tall door and 9' ceilings.? My son and I used a appliance dolly with a 45 degree support to get it off the trailer.? It still would not fit under the height of the door.? We almost killed ourselves lowering it to get under the door.? I wished I would have filmed it for comedy on YT.? We got it stood up and off the pallet it was on.? Fast forward 18 months and I had to move it into the new shop.? The new shop has an 8' door and 10' ceilings, so much easier.? But we still had to lay down the saw to get it out of the old garage shop.? We took off the table (decent removal of weight) and laid it down onto a furniture dolly with some straps to use to hold on to the spine of the saw at it went down.? I then used some triangles I made out of 2x4;s to keep it upright.? This was much easier.
?
When we got it into the shop we decided to try and brute force it upright.? My son and I are not weight lifters, I think my son is like 145 pounds.? We got it upright.? The moving straps really helped to give us some leverage.
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Good luck!
?
PK
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Re: Raising an FB710 off its crate
First, your 600# kamado is of interest. Is that a Komodo Kamado? A Big Bad 32" is on my shortlist.?
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It's a Kamado Joe "Big Joe" - their big'n. ?I love it. ?Which reminds me, I need to get a couple chickens in there smoking on the "Joetisserie" before the rain comes later.?
?
?
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Re: Raising an FB710 off its crate
Ahhh, I had not considered this approach, but this is so much simpler. ?It's a new home, and I'm pretty sure I can find out from the builder if that load would be a problem distributed across two adjacent joists, or just add the temporary reinforcement and not worry about it.
?
Thank you,
Doug
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Re: Raising an FB710 off its crate
Doug, ? On this group, nobody will judge you for over buying for your needs. Dave Davies
"...you will want to tip it front to back, not the spine to foot brake direction."
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It's crated lying on the spine so I can only see rotating it in that one direction.? But, I've measured the diagonal at 8'3" so it will fit beneath the joists.
That's a big saw for a basement shop!
?
Ha! You are correct.? I was going with the 610 but made a last minute decision, for a couple of reasons that may not hold up to intense scrutiny, to get this one.? I haven't smoked pot in decades so I'm sure I wasn't high at the time, but oh well.? It's mine now!? I imagine I'd still be in the same situation with the 610 though with slightly more margin for error...
?
Thanks,
Doug
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
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Re: Raising an FB710 off its crate
"...you will want to tip it front to back, not the spine to foot brake direction."
?
It's crated lying on the spine so I can only see rotating it in that one direction. ?But, I've measured the diagonal at 8'3" so it will fit beneath the joists.
That's a big saw for a basement shop!
?
Ha! You are correct. ?I was going with the 610 but made a last minute decision, for a couple of reasons that may not hold up to intense scrutiny, to get this one. ?I haven't smoked pot in decades so I'm sure I wasn't high at the time, but oh well. ?It's mine now! ?I imagine I'd still be in the same situation with the 610 though with slightly more margin for error...
?
Thanks,
Doug
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Re: Raising an FB710 off its crate
Getting sidetracked...we bought a Lone Star Grillz pellet smoker and love it. Dave Davies
First, your 600# kamado is of interest. Is that a Komodo Kamado? A Big Bad 32" is on my shortlist.?
I also have shorter than ideal ceilings, but i might consider breaking the law for 9'-10' ceilings. I have 7' and some change, which gives me about 1/2" of clearance for my 20" saw. For your machine, have you consider building a ramp to the pallet and then blocking the bandsaw up enough for a pallet jack to get under it? I have moved machines from pallets this way several times. Once you have it on the pallet jack, you can move it inside into place and lower it onto blocking. If you dont want it to be permanently on blocking, then you can do the reverse of slowly levering it and reducing the blocking. Alternatively, you can build your gantry outside to lift the saw off the pallet.?
Patrick
On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 9:48?AM Brett Wissel via <Brettwissel= [email protected]> wrote: There are many out there, but Harrington is a high quality reputable brand imo worth?the extra cost over competitors, and you may buy locally for better deals from rigging companies.
If attaching to lumber joints, I'd bore holes in both sides of a joist bay and run an iron pipe nipple through, securing with hose clamps, sleeves, or other collars to prevent sliding out of place under load. It's still your responsibility to determine the safe load you can put to the structure and/or what other reinforcements or added temporary jack columns you might need to use to reinforce to make for safe loading.
On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 8:27?AM Brett Wissel via <Brettwissel= [email protected]> wrote: Doug,?
The bandsaw decreases topside load as the CoG shifts closer to the center of the base, and increases weight on the bottom. If you can use a chainfall?from the joists to get it as close as you can to the balance point, you can manage the rest with much lighter duty devices like cam-lever straps or a couple of 2x4s serving as levers, or a couple of friends with ropes/pulleys safely out of harm's way. You may not want to lift from a direct overhead point as when it reaches the last 10 degrees or so? of vertical after the balance point, next the CoG is within the footprint of the base, the machine will shift behavior to want to fall into correct position, there may be not enough angle on the lifting line to resist over-tipping in a controlled and safe fashion. Your ceiling height should not be an issue if you can rig from the roof structure at the right angles. If your machine isn't already marked where the CoG is, I'd suggest a ceiling attachment point about a foot toward the top of the geometrical center of the bandsaw.
I’m wrestling with how to raise an FB710 bandsaw to vertical beneath a 9’ ceiling.? The setup guide presumes I have a high ceiling and overhead crane - nope.? I’ve looked at renting a 2-ton gantry, but even if I were to raise its beam up into the gap between two ceiling joists (basement unfinished as of yet), when I subtract from that ~10’ height the vertical distance from the top of the beam to the trolley eyelet, that only leaves about 1’ to spare for a winch before I run out of vertical distance needed for the saw to stand up in.? From what I’ve been told, that 1’ isn’t enough for a winch and its attachments.? I’m now ?considering building a wooden gantry and using a hand-cranked winch, which I think I can make work.? While I do have a tiny bit of past experience doing exactly that to lift a 600 lb kamado grill into it’s carriage, I’ll probably over-design the thing and wind up with something that will lift a Mack truck.? I’m wondering if others have dealt with this situation and what their solutions are.
Thanks in advance,
Doug
--
Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
--
Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
|
Re: Raising an FB710 off its crate
First, your 600# kamado is of interest. Is that a Komodo Kamado? A Big Bad 32" is on my shortlist.?
I also have shorter than ideal ceilings, but i might consider breaking the law for 9'-10' ceilings. I have 7' and some change, which gives me about 1/2" of clearance for my 20" saw. For your machine, have you consider building a ramp to the pallet and then blocking the bandsaw up enough for a pallet jack to get under it? I have moved machines from pallets this way several times. Once you have it on the pallet jack, you can move it inside into place and lower it onto blocking. If you dont want it to be permanently on blocking, then you can do the reverse of slowly levering it and reducing the blocking. Alternatively, you can build your gantry outside to lift the saw off the pallet.?
Patrick
On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 9:48?AM Brett Wissel via <Brettwissel= [email protected]> wrote: There are many out there, but Harrington is a high quality reputable brand imo worth?the extra cost over competitors, and you may buy locally for better deals from rigging companies.
If attaching to lumber joints, I'd bore holes in both sides of a joist bay and run an iron pipe nipple through, securing with hose clamps, sleeves, or other collars to prevent sliding out of place under load. It's still your responsibility to determine the safe load you can put to the structure and/or what other reinforcements or added temporary jack columns you might need to use to reinforce to make for safe loading.
On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 8:27?AM Brett Wissel via <Brettwissel= [email protected]> wrote: Doug,?
The bandsaw decreases topside load as the CoG shifts closer to the center of the base, and increases weight on the bottom. If you can use a chainfall?from the joists to get it as close as you can to the balance point, you can manage the rest with much lighter duty devices like cam-lever straps or a couple of 2x4s serving as levers, or a couple of friends with ropes/pulleys safely out of harm's way. You may not want to lift from a direct overhead point as when it reaches the last 10 degrees or so? of vertical after the balance point, next the CoG is within the footprint of the base, the machine will shift behavior to want to fall into correct position, there may be not enough angle on the lifting line to resist over-tipping in a controlled and safe fashion. Your ceiling height should not be an issue if you can rig from the roof structure at the right angles. If your machine isn't already marked where the CoG is, I'd suggest a ceiling attachment point about a foot toward the top of the geometrical center of the bandsaw.
I’m wrestling with how to raise an FB710 bandsaw to vertical beneath a 9’ ceiling.? The setup guide presumes I have a high ceiling and overhead crane - nope.? I’ve looked at renting a 2-ton gantry, but even if I were to raise its beam up into the gap between two ceiling joists (basement unfinished as of yet), when I subtract from that ~10’ height the vertical distance from the top of the beam to the trolley eyelet, that only leaves about 1’ to spare for a winch before I run out of vertical distance needed for the saw to stand up in.? From what I’ve been told, that 1’ isn’t enough for a winch and its attachments.? I’m now ?considering building a wooden gantry and using a hand-cranked winch, which I think I can make work.? While I do have a tiny bit of past experience doing exactly that to lift a 600 lb kamado grill into it’s carriage, I’ll probably over-design the thing and wind up with something that will lift a Mack truck.? I’m wondering if others have dealt with this situation and what their solutions are.
Thanks in advance,
Doug
--
Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
--
Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
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Re: Raising an FB710 off its crate
Hi Doug,? All you should need is a come-a-long to stand it up. You don't need to be above it either, just go from the closest wall or something heavy you can anchor the other end to. I assume there is a lifting hook or eye on the top of the saw, or at least a hole to insert one?? And given your height restrictions, you will want to tip it front to back, not the spine to foot brake direction. I've done it before with a 510 and 610 it was pretty easy. That's a big saw for a basement shop! Enjoy it Jason
Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
612.432.2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
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Re: Raising an FB710 off its crate
You could get a gantry crane from Harbor Freight.? But you could probably lift it up with a few buddies. Dave Davies
On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 8:48?AM Brett Wissel via <Brettwissel= [email protected]> wrote: There are many out there, but Harrington is a high quality reputable brand imo worth?the extra cost over competitors, and you may buy locally for better deals from rigging companies.
If attaching to lumber joints, I'd bore holes in both sides of a joist bay and run an iron pipe nipple through, securing with hose clamps, sleeves, or other collars to prevent sliding out of place under load. It's still your responsibility to determine the safe load you can put to the structure and/or what other reinforcements or added temporary jack columns you might need to use to reinforce to make for safe loading.
On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 8:27?AM Brett Wissel via <Brettwissel= [email protected]> wrote: Doug,?
The bandsaw decreases topside load as the CoG shifts closer to the center of the base, and increases weight on the bottom. If you can use a chainfall?from the joists to get it as close as you can to the balance point, you can manage the rest with much lighter duty devices like cam-lever straps or a couple of 2x4s serving as levers, or a couple of friends with ropes/pulleys safely out of harm's way. You may not want to lift from a direct overhead point as when it reaches the last 10 degrees or so? of vertical after the balance point, next the CoG is within the footprint of the base, the machine will shift behavior to want to fall into correct position, there may be not enough angle on the lifting line to resist over-tipping in a controlled and safe fashion. Your ceiling height should not be an issue if you can rig from the roof structure at the right angles. If your machine isn't already marked where the CoG is, I'd suggest a ceiling attachment point about a foot toward the top of the geometrical center of the bandsaw.
I’m wrestling with how to raise an FB710 bandsaw to vertical beneath a 9’ ceiling.? The setup guide presumes I have a high ceiling and overhead crane - nope.? I’ve looked at renting a 2-ton gantry, but even if I were to raise its beam up into the gap between two ceiling joists (basement unfinished as of yet), when I subtract from that ~10’ height the vertical distance from the top of the beam to the trolley eyelet, that only leaves about 1’ to spare for a winch before I run out of vertical distance needed for the saw to stand up in.? From what I’ve been told, that 1’ isn’t enough for a winch and its attachments.? I’m now ?considering building a wooden gantry and using a hand-cranked winch, which I think I can make work.? While I do have a tiny bit of past experience doing exactly that to lift a 600 lb kamado grill into it’s carriage, I’ll probably over-design the thing and wind up with something that will lift a Mack truck.? I’m wondering if others have dealt with this situation and what their solutions are.
Thanks in advance,
Doug
--
Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
--
Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
|
Re: Raising an FB710 off its crate
There are many out there, but Harrington is a high quality reputable brand imo worth?the extra cost over competitors, and you may buy locally for better deals from rigging companies.
If attaching to lumber joints, I'd bore holes in both sides of a joist bay and run an iron pipe nipple through, securing with hose clamps, sleeves, or other collars to prevent sliding out of place under load. It's still your responsibility to determine the safe load you can put to the structure and/or what other reinforcements or added temporary jack columns you might need to use to reinforce to make for safe loading.
On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 8:27?AM Brett Wissel via <Brettwissel= [email protected]> wrote: Doug,?
The bandsaw decreases topside load as the CoG shifts closer to the center of the base, and increases weight on the bottom. If you can use a chainfall?from the joists to get it as close as you can to the balance point, you can manage the rest with much lighter duty devices like cam-lever straps or a couple of 2x4s serving as levers, or a couple of friends with ropes/pulleys safely out of harm's way. You may not want to lift from a direct overhead point as when it reaches the last 10 degrees or so? of vertical after the balance point, next the CoG is within the footprint of the base, the machine will shift behavior to want to fall into correct position, there may be not enough angle on the lifting line to resist over-tipping in a controlled and safe fashion. Your ceiling height should not be an issue if you can rig from the roof structure at the right angles. If your machine isn't already marked where the CoG is, I'd suggest a ceiling attachment point about a foot toward the top of the geometrical center of the bandsaw.
I’m wrestling with how to raise an FB710 bandsaw to vertical beneath a 9’ ceiling.? The setup guide presumes I have a high ceiling and overhead crane - nope.? I’ve looked at renting a 2-ton gantry, but even if I were to raise its beam up into the gap between two ceiling joists (basement unfinished as of yet), when I subtract from that ~10’ height the vertical distance from the top of the beam to the trolley eyelet, that only leaves about 1’ to spare for a winch before I run out of vertical distance needed for the saw to stand up in.? From what I’ve been told, that 1’ isn’t enough for a winch and its attachments.? I’m now ?considering building a wooden gantry and using a hand-cranked winch, which I think I can make work.? While I do have a tiny bit of past experience doing exactly that to lift a 600 lb kamado grill into it’s carriage, I’ll probably over-design the thing and wind up with something that will lift a Mack truck.? I’m wondering if others have dealt with this situation and what their solutions are.
Thanks in advance,
Doug
--
Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
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Re: Raising an FB710 off its crate
Doug,?
The bandsaw decreases topside load as the CoG shifts closer to the center of the base, and increases weight on the bottom. If you can use a chainfall?from the joists to get it as close as you can to the balance point, you can manage the rest with much lighter duty devices like cam-lever straps or a couple of 2x4s serving as levers, or a couple of friends with ropes/pulleys safely out of harm's way. You may not want to lift from a direct overhead point as when it reaches the last 10 degrees or so? of vertical after the balance point, next the CoG is within the footprint of the base, the machine will shift behavior to want to fall into correct position, there may be not enough angle on the lifting line to resist over-tipping in a controlled and safe fashion. Your ceiling height should not be an issue if you can rig from the roof structure at the right angles. If your machine isn't already marked where the CoG is, I'd suggest a ceiling attachment point about a foot toward the top of the geometrical center of the bandsaw.
I’m wrestling with how to raise an FB710 bandsaw to vertical beneath a 9’ ceiling.? The setup guide presumes I have a high ceiling and overhead crane - nope.? I’ve looked at renting a 2-ton gantry, but even if I were to raise its beam up into the gap between two ceiling joists (basement unfinished as of yet), when I subtract from that ~10’ height the vertical distance from the top of the beam to the trolley eyelet, that only leaves about 1’ to spare for a winch before I run out of vertical distance needed for the saw to stand up in.? From what I’ve been told, that 1’ isn’t enough for a winch and its attachments.? I’m now ?considering building a wooden gantry and using a hand-cranked winch, which I think I can make work.? While I do have a tiny bit of past experience doing exactly that to lift a 600 lb kamado grill into it’s carriage, I’ll probably over-design the thing and wind up with something that will lift a Mack truck.? I’m wondering if others have dealt with this situation and what their solutions are.
Thanks in advance,
Doug
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
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Re: Raising an FB710 off its crate
Without seeing what you are working with it's hard to know for sure. But perhaps rent an engine hoist? It might work with the low overhead. Lift the machine high enough to slide the crate out then set it down.
I’m wrestling with how to raise an FB710 bandsaw to vertical beneath a 9’ ceiling.? The setup guide presumes I have a high ceiling and overhead crane - nope.? I’ve looked at renting a 2-ton gantry, but even if I were to raise its beam up into the gap between two ceiling joists (basement unfinished as of yet), when I subtract from that ~10’ height the vertical distance from the top of the beam to the trolley eyelet, that only leaves about 1’ to spare for a winch before I run out of vertical distance needed for the saw to stand up in.? From what I’ve been told, that 1’ isn’t enough for a winch and its attachments.? I’m now ?considering building a wooden gantry and using a hand-cranked winch, which I think I can make work.? While I do have a tiny bit of past experience doing exactly that to lift a 600 lb kamado grill into it’s carriage, I’ll probably over-design the thing and wind up with something that will lift a Mack truck.? I’m wondering if others have dealt with this situation and what their solutions are.
Thanks in advance,
Doug
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Raising an FB710 off its crate
I’m wrestling with how to raise an FB710 bandsaw to vertical beneath a 9’ ceiling. ?The setup guide presumes I have a high ceiling and overhead crane - nope. ?I’ve looked at renting a 2-ton gantry, but even if I were to raise its beam up into the gap between two ceiling joists (basement unfinished as of yet), when I subtract from that ~10’ height the vertical distance from the top of the beam to the trolley eyelet, that only leaves about 1’ to spare for a winch before I run out of vertical distance needed for the saw to stand up in. ?From what I’ve been told, that 1’ isn’t enough for a winch and its attachments. ?I’m now ?considering building a wooden gantry and using a hand-cranked winch, which I think I can make work. ?While I do have a tiny bit of past experience doing exactly that to lift a 600 lb kamado grill into it’s carriage, I’ll probably over-design the thing and wind up with something that will lift a Mack truck. ?I’m wondering if others have dealt with this situation and what their solutions are.
Thanks in advance,
Doug
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Re: Question for old CF 741 Pro
Hello Joy
?
Herewith a PDF of our CF741 machine. There are differences with the 'Pro' version but it may offer some insight.
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Cheers,
Michael
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Re: Help with moving a Felder CY731
Calvin –
As others here have said, very sorry for your loss.
Many of us are at that age where we have had to deal with similar.
When my brother passed on, we did a series of whole-lot sales, and made clear we were not parting out his collections.? Auction house estate sales or used equipment dealers is a way to quickly liquidate equipment.
In our case, getting closure and moving on was more important than the selling.?
Good luck with the process, and I hope there is some peace in knowing others will be putting the equipment to good use.
Rich Markiewicz?
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Re: Fixing butt hinges on the edge of MDF doors (!!!)
On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 03:15 PM, jontathan samways wrote:
Dave to give you an idea of what we are talking about all these images are MDF doors with brass butts, normally I use tulip wood for the frames....but have also used MDF for the frames.
Screws I use are Spax 3x30 and 65mm brass butts
Thanks Jonathan, that's very reassuring (and lovely work in those photos).
?
Dave (in the UK)
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Re: Fixing butt hinges on the edge of MDF doors (!!!)
Jason, MDF does not move or twist so on a painted finish it just works Kindest Regards
Jonathan Samways
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Brass butt hinges on MDF doors sounds like a crazy juxtaposition of new and old.
Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
612.432.2765
--
Jason
J. Holtz Furniture
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Re: Help with moving a Felder CY731
I would consider a machine auction company. I assume there are more than just the two machines, likely tooling, small tools, clamps, etc? ?Exfactory and MachineryMax are two such companies.?
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Re: Help with moving a Felder CY731
Calvin, now that I know where you are located, I suggest you call Fergus or Liz in the Sacramento office of Felder (both are in sales) and see if Felder would have interest in taking the Felder gear on consignment. ???(916) 375-3190? ?They can probably look up the original invoice for the machine and give you specifics about it. ?
I also agree with the “you ask 10 people, you’ll get 10 different answers” sentiment. ?Decide how much work you want to do on this first. ?If you have the time to sell individual pieces, be prepared to take photos of the equipment and know some of the details for your advertising (year, condition, model numbers, accessories, power requirements, etc.). ?You will also get requests for “under power” demos. ? If you don’t want to do that level of work, I’d recommend donation to a local educational/training facility, or get an estate auction house involved. ?
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
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On Feb 17, 2025, at 3:32?PM, calvink69 via groups.io <calvink69@...> wrote:
Folks,?
?
First off, thanks for so many thoughtful and timely responses. This is an impressive community.?
?
@Karl - the links to the video on the slide and the details on separating the machine(s) are helpful. I hadn't realized that they could be separated.
?
@David Best - the HQ number is helpful. Plus one on including this in your estate plan. Hindsight being 20/20 there are questions I wish I had asked about the shop ahead of time and/or arrangements I wish we had made. Dealing with all this now makes a hard time somewhat harder.?
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@Patrick Kane - the shop itself is roomy with plenty of space, but there is quite an incline once out the doors at the back. They got them in with a moving truck with a lift gate I believe. Both the combination machine and the bandsaw are on blocking. We're located in Washington state, in Paulsbo (close to Seattle).?
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@John Hinman - we have a great deal of very fine furniture to share with various family members. Cant think of many other hobbies that result in such a great legacy actually.?
?
One last question. The shop consists of the Felder combination machine (731-03), Felder bandsaw (FB-40), a Bridgewood belt sander, a Jet dust collector, and too many misc. tools and accessories to list. I see places like world4machines to sell the individual machines. But we would quite frankly prefer for someone to come and take the whole shop. Not so much interested in getting top dollar on things as we are in having someone keep using them as they were previously used. Thoughts on any way to do that? Seems a bit commercial to just part the whole thing out a bit at a time.?
?
Thx,
Calvin
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骋ü谤别谤
PK
Jason Holtz
Joe Jensen
David P. Best