Re: Couple more questions
Chris,
There is a scientific/engineering explanation:
The recess (mentioned in my post) shall be greater than the raised part under the cap. Both can be measured. I can post pics when I am in the shop later.
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On Jul 1, 2023, at 9:07 AM, Christopher Rozycki <croz1950@...> wrote: ? Responding to Imran’s post.? First, thank you for this information and explanation…but shouldn’t there be a clear and scientific/engineering based explanation of how to set this tool up correctly? It all sounds too touchy feely for me…and too prone to operator error. My C3-31 has been great, but I am still trying to complete the transition from my great shop made router table to the somewhat scary spindle shaper. Not to mention, the spindle shaper on the C3-31 seems less flexible than my router table. Am I wrong? Or just not understanding how to use this tool? Thanks for any feedback, advice, and input. Chris? Chris Rozycki? On Jul 1, 2023, at 8:40 AM, rodsheridan <riderofgallifrey@...> wrote:
?Hi David, that’s true of the Felder spindles, however the Hammer MF spindle is in two pieces, the bearings, pulley and belt remain in the machine, only the top section of the spindle comes out.
If you want to use bushings with the Hammer spindle you would have to use the 30mm spindle and bush it to 1.25”, which is 31.75mm, which is a pretty thin bushing.
I find it convenient to share cutters with the saw, requiring the 30mm spindle, and I have a selection of 1.25” cutters so for me, having 2 spindles is useful……..Regards, Rod
Regards, Rod
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Re: Couple more questions
A very simple method to avoid a spun shaft is to get in the habit of griping the shaft by the spacers and or cutter before turning on the machine to make sure they don’t turn. Now in the case of using bushings on adjustable groovers you have to be more careful as the spacers could be tight but you could have movement in one of the groovers. Using bushing with these should be avoided if possibly.
A spun shaft will make a particular noise when starting up. If you can recognize this and shut down right away you can usually avoid damage. Don’t ask how I know this.
Joe
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Re: Couple more questions
Chris? You have good reason to be concerned shaper work as all work with machine tools and cutters is dangerous. No rings no loss clothing clean spindle and cutters , safety glasses of course. Full body cutters ! The advantage he is mass and ease of operation , high quality cut .? Start simple,,, 5” rebar block and work you way up. Most work in general is. Don w ith ?rebate cutters and groovers.? Leave round overs to dedicated hand routers!
Designing and building for 50 years
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On Jul 1, 2023, at 8:07 AM, Christopher Rozycki <croz1950@...> wrote:
? Responding to Imran’s post.? First, thank you for this information and explanation…but shouldn’t there be a clear and scientific/engineering based explanation of how to set this tool up correctly? It all sounds too touchy feely for me…and too prone to operator error. My C3-31 has been great, but I am still trying to complete the transition from my great shop made router table to the somewhat scary spindle shaper. Not to mention, the spindle shaper on the C3-31 seems less flexible than my router table. Am I wrong? Or just not understanding how to use this tool? Thanks for any feedback, advice, and input. Chris? Chris Rozycki? On Jul 1, 2023, at 8:40 AM, rodsheridan <riderofgallifrey@...> wrote:
?Hi David, that’s true of the Felder spindles, however the Hammer MF spindle is in two pieces, the bearings, pulley and belt remain in the machine, only the top section of the spindle comes out.
If you want to use bushings with the Hammer spindle you would have to use the 30mm spindle and bush it to 1.25”, which is 31.75mm, which is a pretty thin bushing.
I find it convenient to share cutters with the saw, requiring the 30mm spindle, and I have a selection of 1.25” cutters so for me, having 2 spindles is useful……..Regards, Rod
Regards, Rod
|
Re: Couple more questions
Responding to Imran’s post.? First, thank you for this information and explanation…but shouldn’t there be a clear and scientific/engineering based explanation of how to set this tool up correctly? It all sounds too touchy feely for me…and too prone to operator error. My C3-31 has been great, but I am still trying to complete the transition from my great shop made router table to the somewhat scary spindle shaper. Not to mention, the spindle shaper on the C3-31 seems less flexible than my router table. Am I wrong? Or just not understanding how to use this tool? Thanks for any feedback, advice, and input.
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On Jul 1, 2023, at 8:40 AM, rodsheridan <riderofgallifrey@...> wrote:
?Hi David, that’s true of the Felder spindles, however the Hammer MF spindle is in two pieces, the bearings, pulley and belt remain in the machine, only the top section of the spindle comes out.
If you want to use bushings with the Hammer spindle you would have to use the 30mm spindle and bush it to 1.25”, which is 31.75mm, which is a pretty thin bushing.
I find it convenient to share cutters with the saw, requiring the 30mm spindle, and I have a selection of 1.25” cutters so for me, having 2 spindles is useful……..Regards, Rod
Regards, Rod
|
Re: Couple more questions
Hi David, that’s true of the Felder spindles, however the Hammer MF spindle is in two pieces, the bearings, pulley and belt remain in the machine, only the top section of the spindle comes out.
If you want to use bushings with the Hammer spindle you would have to use the 30mm spindle and bush it to 1.25”, which is 31.75mm, which is a pretty thin bushing.
I find it convenient to share cutters with the saw, requiring the 30mm spindle, and I have a selection of 1.25” cutters so for me, having 2 spindles is useful……..Regards, Rod
Regards, Rod
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Re: AD941 installing fence support bar
I just received my AD941, and this is what I did (not that it is correct). I used the spacers to ensure a consistent distance for both the left and right attachment points, and I figured that would better ensure that the jointer fence was perpendicular to the cutterhead. I did not use the big washers on the backside but rather the two washers ("ball socket 1" and "ball socket 2") that have one side each that is concave/convex and fit effectively "inside" each other.  
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Re: AD941 installing fence support bar
Wade,
Those are spherical washers. They are used when irregular surfaces are involved. They will shift relative to each other as opposed to deforming.
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On Jul 1, 2023, at 12:25 AM, Wade Dees <wjdsignature@...> wrote: ? James,
The manual is showing the backside washers as being called ball socket 1 & 2. ?See picture, circled in red. ?No signs of the larger diameter washers being used. ?
The ball socket like washers have corresponding concave faces that fit into one another. ?Not sure why they have this shape to them. ?
Wade
On Jun 30, 2023, at 8:49 PM, James Zhu <james.zhu2@...> wrote:
? Wade,
larger?washers are used on the backside of the casting. If my memory?serves me correctly, it is a washer (not a split washer) like the one in your picture sitting between the casting and the nut.?
James
James,
Thank you for your help.? In that first picture, is that a split washer sitting between the casting and the nut?? And it looks like you did use the larger washers in the second picture on the backside of the casting.
Thx,
Wade
? Wade,
I have AD741, I believe the support bar is the same as AD941's. The description on the manual is correct, it is sort of German English :)
<IMG_3499.JPG>
James Hello FOG members,
Could someone with an AD941 chime in on the proper assembly order for the support bar hardware.? Felder shows one thing in the manual, but then supplies the bar with these “spacers” that came already on the threaded rod.? Not sure if I remove these spacers or use them.? You can see them circled in red.? And, according to the manual, it appears that I don’t use the large washers at all.? Maybe these were for shipping purposes only.?
Thank You,
Wade
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Re: Couple more questions
Most if not all know this but for new comers to shapers I would? add one point to David’s warning. This has been mentioned here many times but is worth repeating as it can be, as David said, an expensive mistake.
One can?spin-weld the cutter, as David mentioned, by not having the cutter sufficiently tightened. Sometimes it is insufficient torque on the nut and other times this happens when the spindle is not sufficiently recessed in the rings and the locking cap bottoms out by hitting the spindle. In this case, locking cap is physically touching the spindle. This should never happen as the cap is unable to apply appropriate downward force on the rings to prevent the cutter from spinning.
I have no data to prove this but my gut feeling is that most users over tighten the nut so spin-welding is more likely to happen as described above when the cap contacts the spindle.
The main reason I am writing this, it is very deceiving, at least to me, to visually gauge the recess created by the rings. I have made it a habit to always stack rings such that I have the tallest ring on top, this in itself does not do squat to prevent the problem but it helps me gauge the depth easier. I can gauge the shaft protrusion before I place the last ring much better than the recess inside the rings. Since I use the same ring (99% of the times) as my last ring, over time, I have developed a good sense of how much of the spindle should be sticking up before I place the last tall ring.
This is not rocket science but an easy and expensive mistake to make. Alway go with more recess whenever it looks questionable. This is really important because this is where it will bite you. The rings and cutter will appear secure and the cutter will even cut. This is what happened to me. The cutter was cutting but it stopped mid cut. I was lucky no welding occurred. This was over 20 yrs ago.
Happy profiling.
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On Jul 1, 2023, at 12:14 AM, David P. Best <dbestworkshop@...> wrote: ? Joe makes some excellent points as always. ?In my case, the only stacked cutter sets I use with bushings are 4” (100mm) Freeborn braised carbide units, and I have dedicated bushings that are always kept with those cutters specifically to avoid confusion. ?I do stack other larger mass cutters, but those are all properly sized to the spindle and do not require bushings. ?
And to Joe’s point, I have stacked 220mm 30mm tall rebate cutters for tenoning operations, and spin-welded one of them to the spindle because I didn’t sufficiently tighten the spindle cap. ?Those cutters were not bushed, but it was an expensive lesson nonetheless since it required replacement of both the spindle and one of the cutters. ?I did get the spindle pressed out of the cutters at a machine shop, but the spindle was so badly scored that it couldn’t ?be salvaged, and one of the cutters was trashed in the pressing operation. ?Others here have lamented the same experience, so at least I’m not alone in my “early years” sloppy workflow.
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
On Jun 30, 2023, at 8:54 PM, Joe Calhoon via groups.io <joecalhoon@...> wrote:
I use a lot of bushings even though all my shafts change very quickly. Most of my runs are short. If a long run I change the shaft. One place I don’t like to use bushings is stacked cutters like door sets and adjustable groovers. Using bushings on these gets confusing and prone to getting a spun cutter. If you need to bush these it’s better to use an unthreaded sleeve.
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Re: Cf741 rip fence issues
Thanks for the input Alex.
On Fri, 30 Jun 2023 at 17:57, Alex Bowlds <aabj@...> wrote: Hi Simon,
I can’t tell how far off the part is from “flat” from the photo. ?But it looks like there may be enough material to machine the part so that it is flat. ?This might be an option if a replacement is not available. ?I am also wondering if part of the problem might be how it is attached to the base. ?Was it originally too wide where it is bolted to the base, and squeezed into place, causing the bend. ?It looks like a piece of cast steel or cast iron. ?They are prone to breakage if they are stressed too much, but they will bend, to a point.
Good luck,
Alex
On Jun 30, 2023, at 4:00 AM, smo_motion via groups.io <smo_motion@...> wrote:
Hi there,
We have noticed that our casting on this 2007 cf741s rip fence is massively out of square. Is this by design??
Thanks
Simon
<20230630_115557.jpg>
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Re: A Question For Martin Owners
Hi Joe
I have mounted the felder adjustable Dado onto the arbor in the T70.? I have the Pro-Lock system on the?T70 and the mounting feels solid. Fingers crossed.? ?I have entered the dado in the tool catalogue with the best description and sizes that I could come up with.? The job at hand is grooving doors.? So the first picture of the three you sent is what I want to do.? When I try to angel the dado I get a popup indicating that angling the blade is not permitted.? Nothing in the manual discusses angling wider tools.? How did you get around the issue?? I have considered just not telling the Martin what I have mounted and seeing what happens.
Hoping for a solution...
Warm Regards Clinton
On Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 10:44?PM Joe Calhoon via <joecalhoon= [email protected]> wrote: [Edited Message Follows]
Clint, I run a 250mm diameter adj groover in my T72 and remove the pins. Not something I use a lot but never had an issue with it coming loose on breaking. Also had my Systmatic dado rebored for this one and did not put pin holes in that. This one only takes 35mm of width for shaper cutters. I run bigger on the T17 but it doesn’t have braking.
I assume you are talking about the old T70 that is similar to my T72?
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Re: AD941 installing fence support bar
James,
The manual is showing the backside washers as being called ball socket 1 & 2. ?See picture, circled in red. ?No signs of the larger diameter washers being used. ?
The ball socket like washers have corresponding concave faces that fit into one another. ?Not sure why they have this shape to them. ?
Wade
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On Jun 30, 2023, at 8:49 PM, James Zhu <james.zhu2@...> wrote:
? Wade,
larger?washers are used on the backside of the casting. If my memory?serves me correctly, it is a washer (not a split washer) like the one in your picture sitting between the casting and the nut.?
James
James,
Thank you for your help.? In that first picture, is that a split washer sitting between the casting and the nut?? And it looks like you did use the larger washers in the second picture on the backside of the casting.
Thx,
Wade
? Wade,
I have AD741, I believe the support bar is the same as AD941's. The description on the manual is correct, it is sort of German English :)
James Hello FOG members,
Could someone with an AD941 chime in on the proper assembly order for the support bar hardware.? Felder shows one thing in the manual, but then supplies the bar with these “spacers” that came already on the threaded rod.? Not sure if I remove these spacers or use them.? You can see them circled in red.? And, according to the manual, it appears that I don’t use the large washers at all.? Maybe these were for shipping purposes only.?
Thank You,
Wade
|
Re: Couple more questions
Joe makes some excellent points as always. ?In my case, the only stacked cutter sets I use with bushings are 4” (100mm) Freeborn braised carbide units, and I have dedicated bushings that are always kept with those cutters specifically to avoid confusion. ?I do stack other larger mass cutters, but those are all properly sized to the spindle and do not require bushings. ?
And to Joe’s point, I have stacked 220mm 30mm tall rebate cutters for tenoning operations, and spin-welded one of them to the spindle because I didn’t sufficiently tighten the spindle cap. ?Those cutters were not bushed, but it was an expensive lesson nonetheless since it required replacement of both the spindle and one of the cutters. ?I did get the spindle pressed out of the cutters at a machine shop, but the spindle was so badly scored that it couldn’t ?be salvaged, and one of the cutters was trashed in the pressing operation. ?Others here have lamented the same experience, so at least I’m not alone in my “early years” sloppy workflow.
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
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On Jun 30, 2023, at 8:54 PM, Joe Calhoon via groups.io <joecalhoon@...> wrote:
I use a lot of bushings even though all my shafts change very quickly. Most of my runs are short. If a long run I change the shaft. One place I don’t like to use bushings is stacked cutters like door sets and adjustable groovers. Using bushings on these gets confusing and prone to getting a spun cutter. If you need to bush these it’s better to use an unthreaded sleeve.
|
Re: Couple more questions
I use a lot of bushings even though all my shafts change very quickly. Most of my runs are short. If a long run I change the shaft. One place I don’t like to use bushings is stacked cutters like door sets and adjustable groovers. Using bushings on these gets confusing and prone to getting a spun cutter. If you need to bush these it’s better to use an unthreaded sleeve.
|
Re: AD941 installing fence support bar
Wade,
larger?washers are used on the backside of the casting. If my memory?serves me correctly, it is a washer (not a split washer) like the one in your picture sitting between the casting and the nut.?
James
James,
Thank you for your help.? In that first picture, is that a split washer sitting between the casting and the nut?? And it looks like you did use the larger washers in the second picture on the backside of the casting.
Thx,
Wade
? Wade,
I have AD741, I believe the support bar is the same as AD941's. The description on the manual is correct, it is sort of German English :)
James Hello FOG members,
Could someone with an AD941 chime in on the proper assembly order for the support bar hardware.? Felder shows one thing in the manual, but then supplies the bar with these “spacers” that came already on the threaded rod.? Not sure if I remove these spacers or use them.? You can see them circled in red.? And, according to the manual, it appears that I don’t use the large washers at all.? Maybe these were for shipping purposes only.?
Thank You,
Wade
|
Re: AD941 installing fence support bar
James,
Thank you for your help. ?In that first picture, is that a split washer sitting between the casting and the nut? ?And it looks like you did use the larger washers in the second picture on the backside of the casting.
Thx,
Wade
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On Jun 30, 2023, at 7:33 PM, James Zhu <james.zhu2@...> wrote:
? Wade,
I have AD741, I believe the support bar is the same as AD941's. The description on the manual is correct, it is sort of German English :)
James Hello FOG members,
Could someone with an AD941 chime in on the proper assembly order for the support bar hardware.? Felder shows one thing in the manual, but then supplies the bar with these “spacers” that came already on the threaded rod.? Not sure if I remove these spacers or use them.? You can see them circled in red.? And, according to the manual, it appears that I don’t use the large washers at all.? Maybe these were for shipping purposes only.?
Thank You,
Wade
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Re: Couple more questions
Thanks for the illustration, David. That makes sense to me.
--
Larry Long Neck
Just a noob trying to learn the ways of wood
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Re: Couple more questions
I guess we have different definitions of “PITA”. ? ??
Same is true on the Profil 45 - loosen two kipp levers and the spindle comes out the top. ?Compared to having cutter bushing - total PITA IMO.
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
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On Jun 30, 2023, at 8:07 PM, rodsheridan <riderofgallifrey@...> wrote:
Hi David, on the C3 the spindles come out the top of the machine when you remove the tooling clamp bolt, certainly not a pain at all……Regards, Rod
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Re: Couple more questions
IMO, exact height is not important. ?But you do want the cutter bushed-out from the spindle top and bottom if it’s a single cutter. ?So in your example, I wouldn’t be concerned about the 10mm gap between the bushings. ?
In the case of a stack of multiple cutters, my rule of thumb (totally unscientific) is that each cutter should ?have bushing contact across 60 percent of its height. ? Below is a visual representation of what I mean and the rules I follow.
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
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On Jun 30, 2023, at 5:02 PM, Larry Long Neck <longneckwood@...> wrote:
Thanks for the input, Mac.
How about something like a 60mm tall rebate cutter that is a single, solid block. If you had 25mm top hat bushings on both the top and the bottom, would the 10mm gap in the middle be a concern? I suppose that I'm wondering how important it is to try and find an exact height match set of bushings for each cutter, compared to using a set that is "close enough" (whatever that may be).
--
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Re: Couple more questions
Hi David, on the C3 the spindles come out the top of the machine when you remove the tooling clamp bolt, certainly not a pain at all……Regards, Rod
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Re: AD941 installing fence support bar
Wade,
I have AD741, I believe the support bar is the same as AD941's. The description on the manual is correct, it is sort of German English :)
James
Hello FOG members,
Could someone with an AD941 chime in on the proper assembly order for the support bar hardware.? Felder shows one thing in the manual, but then supplies the bar with these “spacers” that came already on the threaded rod.? Not sure if I remove these spacers or use them.? You can see them circled in red.? And, according to the manual, it appears that I don’t use the large washers at all.? Maybe these were for shipping purposes only.?
Thank You,
Wade
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imran
rodsheridan
Andy Pickler
Simon Ballard
David P. Best
Larry Long Neck