Re: Thoughts on the Router Spindle for Felder shapers?
Lots of "different strokes / different strokes" in this thread. I do have a router spindle for my F700Z and it works fine, even with small- diameter bits. As Mac observed, the power makes up for it, even if the cutter edge speed is below spec - I suspect that the cutter edge speed specs actually have a fairly wide tolerance. The dust collection of the F700Z is excellent, but as noted by others, the Aigner fence is problematic for very small diameter bits. The router spindle delivers excellent results. That said, I found that I could not plan for router spindle work well enough to avoid?constantly changing the spindles back and forth. Some of you may be qualified as Indy 500 pit crews but I am not a quick- change artist! So I went ahead and got a cast iron router table and mounted it to my old Powermatic cabinet saw's?iron?table - the Powermatic is basically dedicated to ripping and dado work. I had to take the cast iron wing from the Powermatic to a machine shop to grind a 90 degree edge surface and tap holes to mount the router table top, but it was simple and now I have a big, flat cast iron surface to work with which is much easier than working?around the Aigner. I mounted a dedicated 2 1/2HP Makita router and an Incra dust shroud. Combined with a Woodpeckers router fence, only a very small share of the shavings escape the RL160. I have found that it's much faster and much more flexible to set up the router table for small and medium?jobs, leaving the tougher ones for the router spindle, now using maybe 10% of the time. Yes, it's more expensive to dedicate equipment, and you have to decide whether that tradeoff suits you. In my case, yes. And adding the cast iron router table to the Powermatic cost me zero additional floor space, which was a big plus. Pix of the router table and what's currently on the F700Z follow. Good luck with your projects! BR Eric Janson
On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 10:03 PM Alex Bowlds < aabj@...> wrote: Hi Joe,
That¡¯s a great deal for someone interested in Lift and Slide.? I already have the same set.? Can¡¯t see a need for another. Hopefully, someone will jump at the opportunity.
I hope all is well with you and yours in Oregon.? Passed through Klamath Falls a couple days ago to take a class from ArcLight, in Bend, on their Plasma CNC machines.? Stopped in Klamath Falls to purchase some 4/4 maple for $6.59/bf.? Didn¡¯t you settle in that general area?
I put your FD250 to good use cutting large mortises in my large door components.? They are lift and slide, weigh 550# each.? They are 90% complete, installed, but still have a lot of finish work ahead of me.? I used FPL hardware.? I¡¯ll post photos when they are finished.
Have a great weekend.
Alex
> On Jun 10, 2022, at 8:08 PM, bacchus6015 via <joeinno=[email protected]> wrote:
>
> ?Alex, speaking of lift and slide I still have a lift and slide cutter set, supported my Rangate that would sell for $300 plus shipping.?
>
> Joe in New Orleans
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>> On Jun 10, 2022, at 3:38 PM, Alex Bowlds <aabj@...> wrote:
>>
>> ?When it comes to the shaper, Joe Calhoon has a bag of tricks that seems bottomless.? Equally impressive is his willingness to share that knowledge with those of us that are, by comparison, fumbling in the dark.
>>
>> If you haven¡¯t seen Joe¡¯s shop, it is worth the trip to Ouray, Colorado.? Just the trip to Ouray is worth the trip.? It is a truly stunning place in the mountains.? Even better is to take one of the Alpine shaper classes hosted by Joe Calhoon with Greg from Rangate.? You can learn some of Joe¡¯s tricks first hand while discovering how to build Tilt & Turn Windows and Lift & Slide Doors.?
>>
>> Thanks Joe, for the tip on the rosette manufacturing.? I wouldn¡¯t have thought of that.? Seems pretty simple now.
>>
>> Alexbowlds
>>>> On Jun 10, 2022, at 9:05 AM, Joe Calhoon via <joecalhoon=[email protected]> wrote:
>>> ?I use the router shaft on my T23 occasionally. Works fine even with the 9000 rpm top speed.
>>> I used it a while back to produce 120 large roset blocks. My lathe is weak and does not do well with this cutter.
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>>> <06D143D6-2A83-4375-B20E-F20F01E5DBB7.jpeg>
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Garth Multipress vs Soukup Press
All, ? ?Looking for opinions on these two presses sold by Rangate.? If anybody has a Barth I'd be particularly interested in your thoughts on how well suited it is to clamping windows and doors (which Rangate lists as a negative) Thanks Dave Davies
BarthPositive? Ships flat packed so shipping?costs are reduced ? Many options available ? Available in 2.5m / 3m / 4m?lengths ? Base model is cost effective, but?with no options. Negative? Because it is a bolted frame, the amount of?force that can be applied is reduced, which?can make it difficult to clamp heavy frames?such as windows and doors ? Client must decide which model is correct for?sizing and budget, then this model is theirs?forever. Models to choose are RP / RPG /?RPGL. There is no expandability between?models only additional options. ? The delivery is lengthy, estimated 12-16?weeks at this time. ? Full assembly is required. ? Parts and service are now managed from?Germany to North American market. Soukup FP 32-?21Positive? Full welded frame for maximum?force able to handle heavy?timbers. ? Fully hydraulic unit both vertical?and horizontal, for maximum?force. ? Full assembled, easier to set up?and go into production. ? 1 base frame unit and could be?ordered in 2.5m / 3.2m / 4.0m .??the 3.2m is the most common. ? Full set of options that are?expandable between all sizes. ? Stock product for immediate?shipping. ? Fully supported with parts and?service, in stock in North?America. ? Cost effective against other?clamps on the market. Negative? Because of the fully welded frame the?shipping costs can be higher. ? At this time there is no wheel kit to move the?unit.
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
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Thank you Imran, Richard, Brad for the good feedback, much appreciated.? The setup & calibration doc's are priceless; I've also been going thru the Files section on this forum, good stuff here.?? I will def check out the David P Best doc's.
I am in the process of re-doing my DIY'er garage shop layout, so this is a good opportunity to get the machines dialed-in.
thanks, ?? Rich M. in Denver
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Re: Thoughts on the Router Spindle for Felder shapers?
Hi Joe,
That¡¯s a great deal for someone interested in Lift and Slide. I already have the same set. Can¡¯t see a need for another. Hopefully, someone will jump at the opportunity.
I hope all is well with you and yours in Oregon. Passed through Klamath Falls a couple days ago to take a class from ArcLight, in Bend, on their Plasma CNC machines. Stopped in Klamath Falls to purchase some 4/4 maple for $6.59/bf. Didn¡¯t you settle in that general area?
I put your FD250 to good use cutting large mortises in my large door components. They are lift and slide, weigh 550# each. They are 90% complete, installed, but still have a lot of finish work ahead of me. I used FPL hardware. I¡¯ll post photos when they are finished.
Have a great weekend.
Alex
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On Jun 10, 2022, at 8:08 PM, bacchus6015 via groups.io <joeinno@...> wrote:
?Alex, speaking of lift and slide I still have a lift and slide cutter set, supported my Rangate that would sell for $300 plus shipping.
Joe in New Orleans
On Jun 10, 2022, at 3:38 PM, Alex Bowlds <aabj@...> wrote:
?When it comes to the shaper, Joe Calhoon has a bag of tricks that seems bottomless. Equally impressive is his willingness to share that knowledge with those of us that are, by comparison, fumbling in the dark.
If you haven¡¯t seen Joe¡¯s shop, it is worth the trip to Ouray, Colorado. Just the trip to Ouray is worth the trip. It is a truly stunning place in the mountains. Even better is to take one of the Alpine shaper classes hosted by Joe Calhoon with Greg from Rangate. You can learn some of Joe¡¯s tricks first hand while discovering how to build Tilt & Turn Windows and Lift & Slide Doors.
Thanks Joe, for the tip on the rosette manufacturing. I wouldn¡¯t have thought of that. Seems pretty simple now.
Alexbowlds
On Jun 10, 2022, at 9:05 AM, Joe Calhoon via groups.io <joecalhoon@...> wrote: ?I use the router shaft on my T23 occasionally. Works fine even with the 9000 rpm top speed.
I used it a while back to produce 120 large roset blocks. My lathe is weak and does not do well with this cutter.
<4046D489-0126-41A8-A1F8-B9519D077AA7.jpeg>
<78CFC93C-E373-4C5B-9FB3-19B4E42BFACD.jpeg>
<06D143D6-2A83-4375-B20E-F20F01E5DBB7.jpeg>
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Re: Thoughts on the Router Spindle for Felder shapers?
Alex, speaking of lift and slide I still have a lift and slide cutter set, supported my Rangate that would sell for $300 plus shipping.
Joe in New Orleans
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On Jun 10, 2022, at 3:38 PM, Alex Bowlds <aabj@...> wrote:
?When it comes to the shaper, Joe Calhoon has a bag of tricks that seems bottomless. Equally impressive is his willingness to share that knowledge with those of us that are, by comparison, fumbling in the dark.
If you haven¡¯t seen Joe¡¯s shop, it is worth the trip to Ouray, Colorado. Just the trip to Ouray is worth the trip. It is a truly stunning place in the mountains. Even better is to take one of the Alpine shaper classes hosted by Joe Calhoon with Greg from Rangate. You can learn some of Joe¡¯s tricks first hand while discovering how to build Tilt & Turn Windows and Lift & Slide Doors.
Thanks Joe, for the tip on the rosette manufacturing. I wouldn¡¯t have thought of that. Seems pretty simple now.
Alexbowlds
On Jun 10, 2022, at 9:05 AM, Joe Calhoon via groups.io <joecalhoon@...> wrote:
?I use the router shaft on my T23 occasionally. Works fine even with the 9000 rpm top speed.
I used it a while back to produce 120 large roset blocks. My lathe is weak and does not do well with this cutter.
<4046D489-0126-41A8-A1F8-B9519D077AA7.jpeg>
<78CFC93C-E373-4C5B-9FB3-19B4E42BFACD.jpeg>
<06D143D6-2A83-4375-B20E-F20F01E5DBB7.jpeg>
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Re: Pro Lock Tightening Update
Hi Brandon,
Here is a post with pics of prolock. This thread also covers the discussion we had when Michael was ordering the parts for the group.
Standard Felder spindle nut is secured by tightening the bolt located on top of the spindle. This requires one to reach down and manually lock the spindle via push button, unless one has a high end machine with auto spindle lock.
Prolock nut is close to horizontal and therefore can be locked w/o needing to lock the spindle. I typically used a mallet to tighten and loosen the std bolt so that is not needed as well.
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On Jun 10, 2022, at 6:30 PM, Branden Helgason via groups.io <brandenhelgason@...> wrote: ? Hi Imran,
I don¡¯t have a prolock. ?I might be missing something, is this a traditional screw that¡¯s getting torqued? ?Your video certainly doesn¡¯t appear to be providing 8.8Nm of torque spinning in your fingers.
°ä³Ü°ù¾±´Ç³Ü²õ¡
Thanks Branden
After getting prolock for my shaper spindles, I asked the question here about how many turns to achieve 8-10Nm torque spec. That went unanswered.
I just did the test with torque wrench. With 2 finger tight as shown in the video, it took 1.25 turns to reach 8.8Nm +/-6%
The shaft of the 4mm wrench, provided by Prolock, starts twisting after 1 turn. I have never gone that far to tighten the screw. I have a feeling that most users w/o torque wrench are under tightening Prolock.
Can any Prolock user with a torque wrench corroborate my results.
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Re: Thoughts on the Router Spindle for Felder shapers?
When it comes to the shaper, Joe Calhoon has a bag of tricks that seems bottomless. Equally impressive is his willingness to share that knowledge with those of us that are, by comparison, fumbling in the dark.
If you haven¡¯t seen Joe¡¯s shop, it is worth the trip to Ouray, Colorado. Just the trip to Ouray is worth the trip. It is a truly stunning place in the mountains. Even better is to take one of the Alpine shaper classes hosted by Joe Calhoon with Greg from Rangate. You can learn some of Joe¡¯s tricks first hand while discovering how to build Tilt & Turn Windows and Lift & Slide Doors.
Thanks Joe, for the tip on the rosette manufacturing. I wouldn¡¯t have thought of that. Seems pretty simple now.
Alexbowlds
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jun 10, 2022, at 9:05 AM, Joe Calhoon via groups.io <joecalhoon@...> wrote:
?I use the router shaft on my T23 occasionally. Works fine even with the 9000 rpm top speed.
I used it a while back to produce 120 large roset blocks. My lathe is weak and does not do well with this cutter.
<4046D489-0126-41A8-A1F8-B9519D077AA7.jpeg>
<78CFC93C-E373-4C5B-9FB3-19B4E42BFACD.jpeg>
<06D143D6-2A83-4375-B20E-F20F01E5DBB7.jpeg>
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Re: Pro Lock Tightening Update
Hi Imran,
I don¡¯t have a prolock. ?I might be missing something, is this a traditional screw that¡¯s getting torqued? ?Your video certainly doesn¡¯t appear to be providing 8.8Nm of torque spinning in your fingers.
°ä³Ü°ù¾±´Ç³Ü²õ¡
Thanks Branden
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
After getting prolock for my shaper spindles, I asked the question here about how many turns to achieve 8-10Nm torque spec. That went unanswered.
I just did the test with torque wrench. With 2 finger tight as shown in the video, it took 1.25 turns to reach 8.8Nm +/-6%
The shaft of the 4mm wrench, provided by Prolock, starts twisting after 1 turn. I have never gone that far to tighten the screw. I have a feeling that most users w/o torque wrench are under tightening Prolock.
Can any Prolock user with a torque wrench corroborate my results.
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Pro Lock Tightening Update
After getting prolock for my shaper spindles, I asked the question here about how many turns to achieve 8-10Nm torque spec. That went unanswered.
I just did the test with torque wrench. With 2 finger tight as shown in the video, it took 1.25 turns to reach 8.8Nm +/-6%
The shaft of the 4mm wrench, provided by Prolock, starts twisting after 1 turn. I have never gone that far to tighten the screw. I have a feeling that most users w/o torque wrench are under tightening Prolock.
Can any Prolock user with a torque wrench corroborate my results.
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Re: Thoughts on the Router Spindle for Felder shapers?
UJ,
Next time you make rosettes call me and I will sit on the floor and crank the hand wheel up and down so you don¡¯t have to bend over for every rosette.
Joe in New Orleans
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On Jun 10, 2022, at 10:23 AM, Joe Calhoon via groups.io <joecalhoon@...> wrote:
?Joe,
Don¡¯t need any stinking DRO. T23 is typical German with one full turn of hand wheel =3mm plus it¡¯s marked at 0.1mm intervals.
If you can count to 2 and see the blue tape on the mark you are set!
I will say my lowest speed of 3000 was just a bit fast but it worked.
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Re: Thoughts on the Router Spindle for Felder shapers?
On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 11:04 AM, mac campshure wrote:
What I said with out the kw documentation
Yes indeed.? I should have said I was translating "Power makes up hot high speed torque" for people who might not know precisely what that means.
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Re: Thoughts on the Router Spindle for Felder shapers?
What I said with out the kw documentation ?
Designing and building for 50 years
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On Jun 10, 2022, at 12:39 PM, mark thomas <murkyd@...> wrote:
?On Wed, Jun 8, 2022 at 05:47 PM, Brian Turner wrote:
It seems like most palm routers run between 16k-22k, and big plunge routers run as low as 9k and up to 22k.
These are no-load ratings, which are almost meaningless per se, and definitely meaningless when comparing across different equipment. On the shaper, you have a motor capable of delivering ~5 kilowatts of power.? On a palm router, you have ~0.5 kw of power. When the 20k RPM palm router hits the wood, it might slow to 5k.? ? When your 15k shaper hits the wood, it slows to 14,999 RPM ;-) ?
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Re: Thoughts on the Router Spindle for Felder shapers?
I have no experience with the felder router spindle but I did recently migrate away from my dedicated router table to do most profile work on a shaper. What I have found is that I still like having a router table for dados and grooves in small stock, as well as for small freehand work and tight radius curves in small pieces. So I have a router "table" that I can mount my router to, and I clamp to a bench top when I really need it for these scenarios, then I hang it on the wall and use the shaper every other scenario. Unclear if I could dados and tight radius pieces with a shaper+router combo, but its saved me about $1800 not having to get a router spindle and various fence upgrades to make small parts feasible on the shaper+router spindle.?
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Definitely pour over the setup guide Imran provided both to learn the ins and outs of the machines and to get things setup in a way you are satisfied with. I used that guide to setup a used Hammer B3 and A3-31 I purchased (and shipped across the country) recently and, while maddening at times, I have my machines setup in a way where I know most flaws in what I produce with them are likely operator error rather than a machine problem.
If/when you do modify your crosscut fence to square it up, make sure you follow these steps to ensure the miter indicator is also aligned:
http://www.davidpbest.com/VA/StonehorseShop/K975_Install/Felder_Commissioning/2-4-1%20Miter%20Index.htm
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Re: Thoughts on the Router Spindle for Felder shapers?
On Wed, Jun 8, 2022 at 05:47 PM, Brian Turner wrote:
It seems like most palm routers run between 16k-22k, and big plunge routers run as low as 9k and up to 22k.
These are no-load ratings, which are almost meaningless per se, and definitely meaningless when comparing across different equipment. On the shaper, you have a motor capable of delivering ~5 kilowatts of power.? On a palm router, you have ~0.5 kw of power. When the 20k RPM palm router hits the wood, it might slow to 5k.? ? When your 15k shaper hits the wood, it slows to 14,999 RPM ;-) ?
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Re: Thoughts on the Router Spindle for Felder shapers?
Joe,
Don¡¯t need any stinking DRO. T23 is typical German with one full turn of hand wheel =3mm plus it¡¯s marked at 0.1mm intervals.
If you can count to 2 and see the blue tape on the mark you are set!
I will say my lowest speed of 3000 was just a bit fast but it worked.
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You should have one on each side of the outrigger as the fence can be mounted on either end of the outrigger.
These parts are what Brad ordered as the older 1100 model outriggers did not come with them.
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On Jun 10, 2022, at 11:08 AM, Rich M. <rmarkiewicz@...> wrote: ?I called Felder tech support, it turns out the flip-up at the back of the outrigger provides the zero-degree reference. The flip-up is adjustable, so it looks like you can dial it in.....
 
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Re: Thoughts on the Router Spindle for Felder shapers?
Once I tried router spindles in shapers, I never went back to preferring my router tables. I have used multiple dedicated router spindles with dedicated tooling so I could swap spindles to keep setup time? and recalibration errors low,?though that isn't always the?answer. I also find dust/chip collection to work better. My Festool CMS setup is probably my best router table unit ever, but now serves as a glorified shaper tool storage bench - it really does feel like the "lite" version in so many ways to the big Felder with the sliding table in use. I never found?the 15k rpms to be any issue, like Imran says adjust feedrate for best results.
Brian,
This has been discussed here in detail, so if you search you may find a thread with long discussion. I myself have run small round over bits in KF700 using router spindle with no ill effects. Remember that feed rate is one component of the final cuts/inch achieved. That can make up for the less than ideal RPMs. ? I am moving into a new shop soon. My old router table stayed at my previous house so I either need to build a new one, or find a suitable replacement.?
I have a KF700 with a great shaper already in it. So I am considering skipping a dedicated router table. I can use my palm or plunge router when i need to take the tool to the work. And I can use the shaper when I need to take the work to the tool. And it would be pretty great to have a flat cast iron table and a slider attached to my "router table".
In my research, the biggest issue with running router bits in a shaper is that the shaper will run too slow for the high speed that many smaller bits demand. However it looks like Felder sells a that has a pulley?sized appropriately to get 15,000rpm. That sounds pretty fast to me.?
It seems like most palm routers run between 16k-22k, and big plunge routers run as low as 9k and up to 22k. Seeing that it seems like it would be reasonable to run even small bits in a shaper running at 15k RPM.
Does anyone have any wisdom to impart here? Is 15k fast enough? Are there other things to consider that i'm overlooking??
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
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Re: Thoughts on the Router Spindle for Felder shapers?
UJ,
I would not have thought of that method of cutting rosettes. Did you raise the cutter into each blank? Do you have a height dro or stop on the T23 to get the same depth for each rosette?
Joe
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On Jun 10, 2022, at 9:05 AM, Joe Calhoon via groups.io <joecalhoon@...> wrote:
?I use the router shaft on my T23 occasionally. Works fine even with the 9000 rpm top speed.
I used it a while back to produce 120 large roset blocks. My lathe is weak and does not do well with this cutter.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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Re: Thoughts on the Router Spindle for Felder shapers?
I use the router shaft on my T23 occasionally. Works fine even with the 9000 rpm top speed.
I used it a while back to produce 120 large roset blocks. My lathe is weak and does not do well with this cutter.
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imran
