Re: Building a closet for dust collector
If the energy (watts) that came into the room (as electricity) isn't left in the room (as heat), then where is it??
On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 8:06 PM imranindiana via <imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote: I am intrigued by this conversation. In a data center I follow that energy is turning into heat. But in case of a motor I am not convinced.
Imagine a well pump. There is energy stored in the water that has been lifted. So per the law of conservation of energy not all energy got converted into heat.
Imran On May 22, 2020, at 10:34 PM, TJ Cornish < tj@...> wrote: ?
I think you just said mostly what I did ¨C that the energy turns into heat, just not entirely in the motor itself.?
?
8KW of electricity into a room turns into 27,000 of BTU in that room, either directly or indirectly, unless that motor is driving a shaft through a wall where some of that energy is converted into heat somewhere else. That 8KW of heat may
not stay in the room due to diffusion through the room walls and ceiling, but it¡¯s put into the room, no if¡¯s, and¡¯s, or but¡¯s, just as if you had an 8KW electric resistance heater.
?
Energy is not returned to the environment on the return leg ¨C the neutral wire in a single phase 120v world, or the other hot legs in a 240v or 3-phase world. If the energy is not needed for work output or system inefficiency losses it
is not drawn in the first place; e.g. a 5HP/3KW motor has a free-running power consumption value of maybe 1KW, and that power consumption increases when the motor is asked to do work. Only when the motor is fully loaded does it draw 3KW of power. Yes there
is voltage drop on the electrical service wiring and yes there is heat generated from that lost energy, but that¡¯s a different problem in a different room. Power distribution is sized to deliver nominal voltage at the end point, factoring in losses in distribution.
?
RE designing HVAC based on electrical load ¨C yes, this is exactly how it¡¯s done. My day job is in IT, part of which includes managing a datacenter and it¡¯s power and cooling. Cooling load is absolutely sized based on power draw of computing
equipment as well as the expected environmental factors. ??
?
Small spaces like workshops ¨C small closed systems ¨C will show the temperature rise of power consumption more quickly than a larger system which has a lot more thermal sinking capability.
?
I agree it¡¯s complicated, and I¡¯m glad nothing is simple on the Felder forum, which I¡¯m new to. There are few things in life that can truly be expressed simply.? Learning stuff ¨C the reason I joined the group ¨C happens when the complexity
is welcomed. ?
?
No. While you may be correct that the differences between potential energy and kinetic reach equilibrium through heat transfer, it¡¯s not so clear cut as the statement that an 8kw input to a motor yields 8kw of heat within a workshop. Within
systems there are many components, heat sinks, and losses. So for example, the spinning motor creates heat in bearings through friction, the blade creates heat through friction in the wood and drag through air, some energy is passed through entirely in the
electrical supply and leaves the system and recovers its potential in a ground, some energy is absorbed through wood fibers/saw dust and heat sinked. Heat is lost through inefficient insulation, air drafts, radiation through windows etc. Some energy is released
slowly and muddies the results like the specific heat of cast iron and sawdust. All causes, yes, 8kw input leads to 8kw of heat. But the closed system needs to be very large which simply is out of line with a real world workshop. I don¡¯t know much about sizing
hvac but I don¡¯t think this is the way to do it.
Nothing is simple on a Felder forum :) And I¡¯m waiting for my finish to dry.
All forms of energy ultimately end in heat, so yes, 8KW of energy coming in results in 8KW of heat in your shop.
?
A 3KW 5HP motor produces 3KW worth of heat ¨C electrical resistance heat in the power cord and motor windings, sliding friction heat in the bearings and air friction in parts rotating in air. Even the work output of the motor ¨C the cutting,
sanding, blowing, etc., ultimately ends up as heat ¨C if you stick your hand in a pile of just cut sawdust, it will be quite warm from the cutting tool friction and the forced deformation of the wood.
?
It is accurate to say that a 3KW motor itself doesn¡¯t itself give off 10,000 BTU of heat, but if you factor all of the losses in the system and especially the work output into whatever the motor is doing, you end up with 10,000 BTU of
heat in your room as a result of the motor running. It¡¯s counter-intuitive, but it¡¯s true.
?
I am not an expert but I am pretty sure this is not correct.
¡°?That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.¡±
Only a small portion of power being consumed is generating heat.
?Mark, I understand the thermal mass.? I often run the saw or shaper for an hour or two straight.? Sucking 110F air into my shop would definitely be a problem.? When running I have a 5HP dust collector and a 5HP saw, shaper, or sander
running. That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.? My lighting is another 2.3kw.? 1kw of electric is 3412btu so 10kw of electric in is about 34K btu.? Over 3 tons of AC.? If I ran
machines all the time and wanted to keep it cool when it's over 110F I would have had to have 10 tons of AC per the mechanical engineer.? That's without dumping exhaust outside.? Now if I were heating the machine heat would work for me and not against me.
|
Re: Building a closet for dust collector
I am intrigued by this conversation. In a data center I follow that energy is turning into heat. But in case of a motor I am not convinced.
Imagine a well pump. There is energy stored in the water that has been lifted. So per the law of conservation of energy not all energy got converted into heat.
Imran
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On May 22, 2020, at 10:34 PM, TJ Cornish <tj@...> wrote: ?
I think you just said mostly what I did ¨C that the energy turns into heat, just not entirely in the motor itself.?
?
8KW of electricity into a room turns into 27,000 of BTU in that room, either directly or indirectly, unless that motor is driving a shaft through a wall where some of that energy is converted into heat somewhere else. That 8KW of heat may
not stay in the room due to diffusion through the room walls and ceiling, but it¡¯s put into the room, no if¡¯s, and¡¯s, or but¡¯s, just as if you had an 8KW electric resistance heater.
?
Energy is not returned to the environment on the return leg ¨C the neutral wire in a single phase 120v world, or the other hot legs in a 240v or 3-phase world. If the energy is not needed for work output or system inefficiency losses it
is not drawn in the first place; e.g. a 5HP/3KW motor has a free-running power consumption value of maybe 1KW, and that power consumption increases when the motor is asked to do work. Only when the motor is fully loaded does it draw 3KW of power. Yes there
is voltage drop on the electrical service wiring and yes there is heat generated from that lost energy, but that¡¯s a different problem in a different room. Power distribution is sized to deliver nominal voltage at the end point, factoring in losses in distribution.
?
RE designing HVAC based on electrical load ¨C yes, this is exactly how it¡¯s done. My day job is in IT, part of which includes managing a datacenter and it¡¯s power and cooling. Cooling load is absolutely sized based on power draw of computing
equipment as well as the expected environmental factors. ??
?
Small spaces like workshops ¨C small closed systems ¨C will show the temperature rise of power consumption more quickly than a larger system which has a lot more thermal sinking capability.
?
I agree it¡¯s complicated, and I¡¯m glad nothing is simple on the Felder forum, which I¡¯m new to. There are few things in life that can truly be expressed simply.? Learning stuff ¨C the reason I joined the group ¨C happens when the complexity
is welcomed. ?
?
No. While you may be correct that the differences between potential energy and kinetic reach equilibrium through heat transfer, it¡¯s not so clear cut as the statement that an 8kw input to a motor yields 8kw of heat within a workshop. Within
systems there are many components, heat sinks, and losses. So for example, the spinning motor creates heat in bearings through friction, the blade creates heat through friction in the wood and drag through air, some energy is passed through entirely in the
electrical supply and leaves the system and recovers its potential in a ground, some energy is absorbed through wood fibers/saw dust and heat sinked. Heat is lost through inefficient insulation, air drafts, radiation through windows etc. Some energy is released
slowly and muddies the results like the specific heat of cast iron and sawdust. All causes, yes, 8kw input leads to 8kw of heat. But the closed system needs to be very large which simply is out of line with a real world workshop. I don¡¯t know much about sizing
hvac but I don¡¯t think this is the way to do it.
Nothing is simple on a Felder forum :) And I¡¯m waiting for my finish to dry.
All forms of energy ultimately end in heat, so yes, 8KW of energy coming in results in 8KW of heat in your shop.
?
A 3KW 5HP motor produces 3KW worth of heat ¨C electrical resistance heat in the power cord and motor windings, sliding friction heat in the bearings and air friction in parts rotating in air. Even the work output of the motor ¨C the cutting,
sanding, blowing, etc., ultimately ends up as heat ¨C if you stick your hand in a pile of just cut sawdust, it will be quite warm from the cutting tool friction and the forced deformation of the wood.
?
It is accurate to say that a 3KW motor itself doesn¡¯t itself give off 10,000 BTU of heat, but if you factor all of the losses in the system and especially the work output into whatever the motor is doing, you end up with 10,000 BTU of
heat in your room as a result of the motor running. It¡¯s counter-intuitive, but it¡¯s true.
?
I am not an expert but I am pretty sure this is not correct.
¡°?That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.¡±
Only a small portion of power being consumed is generating heat.
On May 22, 2020, at 7:48 PM, Joe Jensen <joe.jensen@...> wrote:
?Mark, I understand the thermal mass.? I often run the saw or shaper for an hour or two straight.? Sucking 110F air into my shop would definitely be a problem.? When running I have a 5HP dust collector and a 5HP saw, shaper, or sander
running. That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.? My lighting is another 2.3kw.? 1kw of electric is 3412btu so 10kw of electric in is about 34K btu.? Over 3 tons of AC.? If I ran
machines all the time and wanted to keep it cool when it's over 110F I would have had to have 10 tons of AC per the mechanical engineer.? That's without dumping exhaust outside.? Now if I were heating the machine heat would work for me and not against me.
|
Re: Building a closet for dust collector
That¡¯s fair.
?
One thing that is often confused is KW vs KWH. The first ¨C kilowatts ¨C is an instantaneous measurement. If a 3KW table saw is on for 5 seconds, it draws 3KW for the 5 seconds it¡¯s on and 0KW when it¡¯s off. KWH ¨C kilowatt hours ¨C is the
measure of energy consumed over time. A table saw used for 5 seconds per hour draws 3KW for those 5 seconds, but that translates to only .004KWH, which is the more relevant number for HVAC calculations.
?
In my shop, the dust collector is probably the biggest aggregate consumer of energy. I have a CNC router with vacuum table. When I use the vacuum table,? I¡¯m pulling 3 ? KW for a couple hours straight, plus the router spindle. I live in
Minnesota so the heat is welcome about half of the year, but things get toasty in a hurry in the summer.
?
?
?
I think perhaps the issue then is the usual workload of a typical shop. Although in an it system things are, I imagine, a bit more stable in terms of draw and power use, that is not the case for most shops not in a factory environment.
We tend to turn on and off equipment and not be steadily throwing plank after plank in rapid succession thorough a saw at max force leading to an actual nameplate type draw. Whereas computer fans are typically more blunt force objects running at max 100% of
the time to account for a potentially catastrophic consequence of failing to control heat in a limited space and the consequences of those failures. And so, I may allow for a total heat release into your shop for the sake of argument, but even then, the draw
is variable and subsequently the heat release. If the OP is concerned about utilizing a motor and dealing with the heat for 100% utilization, he is probably 1) not using the right equipment as Felder doesn¡¯t spec the duty as 100%, and 2) in the wrong forum
and needs to be talking to factory owners.
But in more real world situations, we don¡¯t use 100% draw even when we are using machines most of the time, turn them off between runs, have leaks under a doors, windows to radiate out, poor insulation to not contain heat or cold, and a
myriad of other issues. Sure, running motors will increase heat but it¡¯s not a 1:1 in any of our shops, and especially not at nameplate levels.
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Show quoted text
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of TJ Cornish <tj@...>
Sent: Friday, May 22, 2020 9:33:52 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [FOG] Building a closet for dust collector
I think you just said mostly what I did ¨C that the energy turns into heat, just not entirely in the motor itself.?
?
8KW of electricity into a room turns into 27,000 of BTU in that room, either directly or indirectly, unless that motor is driving a shaft through a wall where some of that energy is converted into heat somewhere else. That 8KW of heat
may not stay in the room due to diffusion through the room walls and ceiling, but it¡¯s put into the room, no if¡¯s, and¡¯s, or but¡¯s, just as if you had an 8KW electric resistance heater.
?
Energy is not returned to the environment on the return leg ¨C the neutral wire in a single phase 120v world, or the other hot legs in a 240v or 3-phase world. If the energy is not needed for work output or system inefficiency losses it
is not drawn in the first place; e.g. a 5HP/3KW motor has a free-running power consumption value of maybe 1KW, and that power consumption increases when the motor is asked to do work. Only when the motor is fully loaded does it draw 3KW of power. Yes there
is voltage drop on the electrical service wiring and yes there is heat generated from that lost energy, but that¡¯s a different problem in a different room. Power distribution is sized to deliver nominal voltage at the end point, factoring in losses in distribution.
?
RE designing HVAC based on electrical load ¨C yes, this is exactly how it¡¯s done. My day job is in IT, part of which includes managing a datacenter and it¡¯s power and cooling. Cooling load is absolutely sized based on power draw of computing
equipment as well as the expected environmental factors. ??
?
Small spaces like workshops ¨C small closed systems ¨C will show the temperature rise of power consumption more quickly than a larger system which has a lot more thermal sinking capability.
?
I agree it¡¯s complicated, and I¡¯m glad nothing is simple on the Felder forum, which I¡¯m new to. There are few things in life that can truly be expressed simply.? Learning stuff ¨C the reason I joined the group ¨C happens when the complexity
is welcomed. ?
?
No. While you may be correct that the differences between potential energy and kinetic reach equilibrium through heat transfer, it¡¯s not so clear cut as the statement that an 8kw input to a motor yields 8kw of heat within a workshop. Within
systems there are many components, heat sinks, and losses. So for example, the spinning motor creates heat in bearings through friction, the blade creates heat through friction in the wood and drag through air, some energy is passed through entirely in the
electrical supply and leaves the system and recovers its potential in a ground, some energy is absorbed through wood fibers/saw dust and heat sinked. Heat is lost through inefficient insulation, air drafts, radiation through windows etc. Some energy is released
slowly and muddies the results like the specific heat of cast iron and sawdust. All causes, yes, 8kw input leads to 8kw of heat. But the closed system needs to be very large which simply is out of line with a real world workshop. I don¡¯t know much about sizing
hvac but I don¡¯t think this is the way to do it.
Nothing is simple on a Felder forum :) And I¡¯m waiting for my finish to dry.
All forms of energy ultimately end in heat, so yes, 8KW of energy coming in results in 8KW of heat in your shop.
?
A 3KW 5HP motor produces 3KW worth of heat ¨C electrical resistance heat in the power cord and motor windings, sliding friction heat in the bearings and air friction in parts rotating in air. Even the work output of the motor ¨C the cutting,
sanding, blowing, etc., ultimately ends up as heat ¨C if you stick your hand in a pile of just cut sawdust, it will be quite warm from the cutting tool friction and the forced deformation of the wood.
?
It is accurate to say that a 3KW motor itself doesn¡¯t itself give off 10,000 BTU of heat, but if you factor all of the losses in the system and especially the work output into whatever the motor is doing, you end up with 10,000 BTU of
heat in your room as a result of the motor running. It¡¯s counter-intuitive, but it¡¯s true.
?
I am not an expert but I am pretty sure this is not correct.
¡°?That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.¡±
Only a small portion of power being consumed is generating heat.
On May 22, 2020, at 7:48 PM, Joe Jensen <joe.jensen@...> wrote:
?Mark, I understand the thermal mass.? I often run the saw or shaper for an hour or two straight.? Sucking 110F air into my shop would definitely be a problem.? When running I have a 5HP dust collector and a 5HP saw, shaper, or sander
running. That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.? My lighting is another 2.3kw.? 1kw of electric is 3412btu so 10kw of electric in is about 34K btu.? Over 3 tons of AC.? If I ran
machines all the time and wanted to keep it cool when it's over 110F I would have had to have 10 tons of AC per the mechanical engineer.? That's without dumping exhaust outside.? Now if I were heating the machine heat would work for me and not against me.
|
Re: Building a closet for dust collector
I think perhaps the issue then is the usual workload of a typical shop. Although in an it system things are, I imagine, a bit more stable in terms of draw and power use, that is not the case for most shops not in a factory environment.
We tend to turn on and off equipment and not be steadily throwing plank after plank in rapid succession thorough a saw at max force leading to an actual nameplate type draw. Whereas computer fans are typically more blunt force objects running at max 100% of
the time to account for a potentially catastrophic consequence of failing to control heat in a limited space and the consequences of those failures. And so, I may allow for a total heat release into your shop for the sake of argument, but even then, the draw
is variable and subsequently the heat release. If the OP is concerned about utilizing a motor and dealing with the heat for 100% utilization, he is probably 1) not using the right equipment as Felder doesn¡¯t spec the duty as 100%, and 2) in the wrong forum
and needs to be talking to factory owners.
But in more real world situations, we don¡¯t use 100% draw even when we are using machines most of the time, turn them off between runs, have leaks under a doors, windows to radiate out, poor insulation to not contain heat or cold,
and a myriad of other issues. Sure, running motors will increase heat but it¡¯s not a 1:1 in any of our shops, and especially not at nameplate levels.
Get
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I think you just said mostly what I did ¨C that the energy turns into heat, just not entirely in the motor itself.?
?
8KW of electricity into a room turns into 27,000 of BTU in that room, either directly or indirectly, unless that motor is driving a shaft through a wall where some of that energy is converted into heat somewhere else. That 8KW of heat
may not stay in the room due to diffusion through the room walls and ceiling, but it¡¯s put into the room, no if¡¯s, and¡¯s, or but¡¯s, just as if you had an 8KW electric resistance heater.
?
Energy is not returned to the environment on the return leg ¨C the neutral wire in a single phase 120v world, or the other hot legs in a 240v or 3-phase world. If the energy is not needed for work output or system inefficiency losses it
is not drawn in the first place; e.g. a 5HP/3KW motor has a free-running power consumption value of maybe 1KW, and that power consumption increases when the motor is asked to do work. Only when the motor is fully loaded does it draw 3KW of power. Yes there
is voltage drop on the electrical service wiring and yes there is heat generated from that lost energy, but that¡¯s a different problem in a different room. Power distribution is sized to deliver nominal voltage at the end point, factoring in losses in distribution.
?
RE designing HVAC based on electrical load ¨C yes, this is exactly how it¡¯s done. My day job is in IT, part of which includes managing a datacenter and it¡¯s power and cooling. Cooling load is absolutely sized based on power draw of computing
equipment as well as the expected environmental factors. ??
?
Small spaces like workshops ¨C small closed systems ¨C will show the temperature rise of power consumption more quickly than a larger system which has a lot more thermal sinking capability.
?
I agree it¡¯s complicated, and I¡¯m glad nothing is simple on the Felder forum, which I¡¯m new to. There are few things in life that can truly be expressed simply.? Learning stuff ¨C the reason I joined the group ¨C happens when the complexity
is welcomed. ?
?
No. While you may be correct that the differences between potential energy and kinetic reach equilibrium through heat transfer, it¡¯s not so clear cut as the statement that an 8kw input to a motor yields 8kw of heat within a workshop.
Within systems there are many components, heat sinks, and losses. So for example, the spinning motor creates heat in bearings through friction, the blade creates heat through friction in the wood and drag through air, some energy is passed through entirely
in the electrical supply and leaves the system and recovers its potential in a ground, some energy is absorbed through wood fibers/saw dust and heat sinked. Heat is lost through inefficient insulation, air drafts, radiation through windows etc. Some energy
is released slowly and muddies the results like the specific heat of cast iron and sawdust. All causes, yes, 8kw input leads to 8kw of heat. But the closed system needs to be very large which simply is out of line with a real world workshop. I don¡¯t know much
about sizing hvac but I don¡¯t think this is the way to do it.
Nothing is simple on a Felder forum :) And I¡¯m waiting for my finish to dry.
All forms of energy ultimately end in heat, so yes, 8KW of energy coming in results in 8KW of heat in your shop.
?
A 3KW 5HP motor produces 3KW worth of heat ¨C electrical resistance heat in the power cord and motor windings, sliding friction heat in the bearings and air friction in parts rotating in air. Even the work output of the motor ¨C the cutting,
sanding, blowing, etc., ultimately ends up as heat ¨C if you stick your hand in a pile of just cut sawdust, it will be quite warm from the cutting tool friction and the forced deformation of the wood.
?
It is accurate to say that a 3KW motor itself doesn¡¯t itself give off 10,000 BTU of heat, but if you factor all of the losses in the system and especially the work output into whatever the motor is doing, you end up with 10,000 BTU of
heat in your room as a result of the motor running. It¡¯s counter-intuitive, but it¡¯s true.
?
I am not an expert but I am pretty sure this is not correct.
¡°?That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.¡±
Only a small portion of power being consumed is generating heat.
On May 22, 2020, at 7:48 PM, Joe Jensen <joe.jensen@...> wrote:
?Mark, I understand the thermal mass.? I often run the saw or shaper for an hour or two straight.? Sucking 110F air into my shop would definitely be a problem.? When running I have a 5HP dust collector and a 5HP saw, shaper, or sander
running. That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.? My lighting is another 2.3kw.? 1kw of electric is 3412btu so 10kw of electric in is about 34K btu.? Over 3 tons of AC.? If I ran
machines all the time and wanted to keep it cool when it's over 110F I would have had to have 10 tons of AC per the mechanical engineer.? That's without dumping exhaust outside.? Now if I were heating the machine heat would work for me and not against me.
|
Randy, That is a very impressive build, It looks very well thought out and assembled. Where I don't see the need for one in my situation, When you list the build, and parts I might just give it a try and do it for fun Again well done. Glen
Alpine Moulding and Millwork Inc.
Mail: ?? P.O. Box 257 ?????????? Avery, CA. 95224 Shop: 441 Pennsylvania Gulch Road ????????? Murphys, CA. 95247
????????? 650-678-3137 LIC # 707507
On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 4:07 PM Randy Child via <strongman_one= [email protected]> wrote: As some of you know, Joel Gelman and I have been attempting to make an articulate boom arm.? After some trial and error (with more emphasis on error), I think I finally got the boom arm the way it's suppose to be.? I still have more to do with it, like hook the hoses onto it at the joint, but all in all, it turned out exactly the way I'd had hoped..
|
Re: Building a closet for dust collector
I think you just said mostly what I did ¨C that the energy turns into heat, just not entirely in the motor itself.?
?
8KW of electricity into a room turns into 27,000 of BTU in that room, either directly or indirectly, unless that motor is driving a shaft through a wall where some of that energy is converted into heat somewhere else. That 8KW of heat may
not stay in the room due to diffusion through the room walls and ceiling, but it¡¯s put into the room, no if¡¯s, and¡¯s, or but¡¯s, just as if you had an 8KW electric resistance heater.
?
Energy is not returned to the environment on the return leg ¨C the neutral wire in a single phase 120v world, or the other hot legs in a 240v or 3-phase world. If the energy is not needed for work output or system inefficiency losses it
is not drawn in the first place; e.g. a 5HP/3KW motor has a free-running power consumption value of maybe 1KW, and that power consumption increases when the motor is asked to do work. Only when the motor is fully loaded does it draw 3KW of power. Yes there
is voltage drop on the electrical service wiring and yes there is heat generated from that lost energy, but that¡¯s a different problem in a different room. Power distribution is sized to deliver nominal voltage at the end point, factoring in losses in distribution.
?
RE designing HVAC based on electrical load ¨C yes, this is exactly how it¡¯s done. My day job is in IT, part of which includes managing a datacenter and it¡¯s power and cooling. Cooling load is absolutely sized based on power draw of computing
equipment as well as the expected environmental factors. ??
?
Small spaces like workshops ¨C small closed systems ¨C will show the temperature rise of power consumption more quickly than a larger system which has a lot more thermal sinking capability.
?
I agree it¡¯s complicated, and I¡¯m glad nothing is simple on the Felder forum, which I¡¯m new to. There are few things in life that can truly be expressed simply.? Learning stuff ¨C the reason I joined the group ¨C happens when the complexity
is welcomed. ?
?
No. While you may be correct that the differences between potential energy and kinetic reach equilibrium through heat transfer, it¡¯s not so clear cut as the statement that an 8kw input to a motor yields 8kw of heat within a workshop. Within
systems there are many components, heat sinks, and losses. So for example, the spinning motor creates heat in bearings through friction, the blade creates heat through friction in the wood and drag through air, some energy is passed through entirely in the
electrical supply and leaves the system and recovers its potential in a ground, some energy is absorbed through wood fibers/saw dust and heat sinked. Heat is lost through inefficient insulation, air drafts, radiation through windows etc. Some energy is released
slowly and muddies the results like the specific heat of cast iron and sawdust. All causes, yes, 8kw input leads to 8kw of heat. But the closed system needs to be very large which simply is out of line with a real world workshop. I don¡¯t know much about sizing
hvac but I don¡¯t think this is the way to do it.
Nothing is simple on a Felder forum :) And I¡¯m waiting for my finish to dry.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of TJ Cornish <tj@...>
Sent: Friday, May 22, 2020 8:42:53 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [FOG] Building a closet for dust collector
All forms of energy ultimately end in heat, so yes, 8KW of energy coming in results in 8KW of heat in your shop.
?
A 3KW 5HP motor produces 3KW worth of heat ¨C electrical resistance heat in the power cord and motor windings, sliding friction heat in the bearings and air friction in parts rotating in air. Even the work output of the motor ¨C the cutting,
sanding, blowing, etc., ultimately ends up as heat ¨C if you stick your hand in a pile of just cut sawdust, it will be quite warm from the cutting tool friction and the forced deformation of the wood.
?
It is accurate to say that a 3KW motor itself doesn¡¯t itself give off 10,000 BTU of heat, but if you factor all of the losses in the system and especially the work output into whatever the motor is doing, you end up with 10,000 BTU of
heat in your room as a result of the motor running. It¡¯s counter-intuitive, but it¡¯s true.
?
I am not an expert but I am pretty sure this is not correct.
¡°?That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.¡±
Only a small portion of power being consumed is generating heat.
On May 22, 2020, at 7:48 PM, Joe Jensen <joe.jensen@...> wrote:
?Mark, I understand the thermal mass.? I often run the saw or shaper for an hour or two straight.? Sucking 110F air into my shop would definitely be a problem.? When running I have a 5HP dust collector and a 5HP saw, shaper, or sander
running. That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.? My lighting is another 2.3kw.? 1kw of electric is 3412btu so 10kw of electric in is about 34K btu.? Over 3 tons of AC.? If I ran
machines all the time and wanted to keep it cool when it's over 110F I would have had to have 10 tons of AC per the mechanical engineer.? That's without dumping exhaust outside.? Now if I were heating the machine heat would work for me and not against me.
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Re: Building a closet for dust collector
No. While you may be correct that the differences between potential energy and kinetic reach equilibrium through heat transfer, it¡¯s not so clear cut as the statement that an 8kw input to a motor yields 8kw of heat within a workshop.
Within systems there are many components, heat sinks, and losses. So for example, the spinning motor creates heat in bearings through friction, the blade creates heat through friction in the wood and drag through air, some energy is passed through entirely
in the electrical supply and leaves the system and recovers its potential in a ground, some energy is absorbed through wood fibers/saw dust and heat sinked. Heat is lost through inefficient insulation, air drafts, radiation through windows etc. Some energy
is released slowly and muddies the results like the specific heat of cast iron and sawdust. All causes, yes, 8kw input leads to 8kw of heat. But the closed system needs to be very large which simply is out of line with a real world workshop. I don¡¯t know much
about sizing hvac but I don¡¯t think this is the way to do it.
Nothing is simple on a Felder forum :) And I¡¯m waiting for my finish to dry.
Get
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All forms of energy ultimately end in heat, so yes, 8KW of energy coming in results in 8KW of heat in your shop.
?
A 3KW 5HP motor produces 3KW worth of heat ¨C electrical resistance heat in the power cord and motor windings, sliding friction heat in the bearings and air friction in parts rotating in air. Even the work output of the motor ¨C the cutting,
sanding, blowing, etc., ultimately ends up as heat ¨C if you stick your hand in a pile of just cut sawdust, it will be quite warm from the cutting tool friction and the forced deformation of the wood.
?
It is accurate to say that a 3KW motor itself doesn¡¯t itself give off 10,000 BTU of heat, but if you factor all of the losses in the system and especially the work output into whatever the motor is doing, you end up with 10,000 BTU of
heat in your room as a result of the motor running. It¡¯s counter-intuitive, but it¡¯s true.
?
I am not an expert but I am pretty sure this is not correct.
¡°?That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.¡±
Only a small portion of power being consumed is generating heat.
On May 22, 2020, at 7:48 PM, Joe Jensen <joe.jensen@...> wrote:
?Mark, I understand the thermal mass.? I often run the saw or shaper for an hour or two straight.? Sucking 110F air into my shop would definitely be a problem.? When running I have a 5HP dust collector and a 5HP saw, shaper, or sander
running. That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.? My lighting is another 2.3kw.? 1kw of electric is 3412btu so 10kw of electric in is about 34K btu.? Over 3 tons of AC.? If I ran
machines all the time and wanted to keep it cool when it's over 110F I would have had to have 10 tons of AC per the mechanical engineer.? That's without dumping exhaust outside.? Now if I were heating the machine heat would work for me and not against me.
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When are you use the thickness planer the rowers seem to be turning but when I put the word in there I can Them it doesn¡¯t feed the wood I have to push like hell and then pull it out penny Any thoughts
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Re: Building a closet for dust collector
All forms of energy ultimately end in heat, so yes, 8KW of energy coming in results in 8KW of heat in your shop.
?
A 3KW 5HP motor produces 3KW worth of heat ¨C electrical resistance heat in the power cord and motor windings, sliding friction heat in the bearings and air friction in parts rotating in air. Even the work output of the motor ¨C the cutting,
sanding, blowing, etc., ultimately ends up as heat ¨C if you stick your hand in a pile of just cut sawdust, it will be quite warm from the cutting tool friction and the forced deformation of the wood.
?
It is accurate to say that a 3KW motor itself doesn¡¯t itself give off 10,000 BTU of heat, but if you factor all of the losses in the system and especially the work output into whatever the motor is doing, you end up with 10,000 BTU of heat
in your room as a result of the motor running. It¡¯s counter-intuitive, but it¡¯s true.
?
I am not an expert but I am pretty sure this is not correct.
¡°?That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.¡±
Only a small portion of power being consumed is generating heat.
On May 22, 2020, at 7:48 PM, Joe Jensen <joe.jensen@...> wrote:
?Mark, I understand the thermal mass.? I often run the saw or shaper for an hour or two straight.? Sucking 110F air into my shop would definitely be a problem.? When running I have a 5HP dust collector and a 5HP saw, shaper, or sander running.
That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.? My lighting is another 2.3kw.? 1kw of electric is 3412btu so 10kw of electric in is about 34K btu.? Over 3 tons of AC.? If I ran machines
all the time and wanted to keep it cool when it's over 110F I would have had to have 10 tons of AC per the mechanical engineer.? That's without dumping exhaust outside.? Now if I were heating the machine heat would work for me and not against me.
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What was your final? boom arm extended length?
On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 7:07 PM Randy Child via <strongman_one= [email protected]> wrote: As some of you know, Joel Gelman and I have been attempting to make an articulate boom arm.? After some trial and error (with more emphasis on error), I think I finally got the boom arm the way it's suppose to be.? I still have more to do with it, like hook the hoses onto it at the joint, but all in all, it turned out exactly the way I'd had hoped..
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Re: Building a closet for dust collector
Hey Joe, ?I live in Mesa. I used a variety of materials and staggered studs, on my closet. Most of the noise is from the return vent
You¡¯re welcome to come see the 5 hp dust collector closet if you wish.?
Marty
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On May 20, 2020, at 2:19 PM, Joe Jensen <joe.jensen@...> wrote:
? Hi all, the journey of building out the new shop continues.? I am now planning a closet to house the cyclone dust collector.? Being an engineer, I have to research everything.? I found a fantastic website with data on different wall construction and the STC (sound transmission coeff) for each.
I had been planning to do 2x6 plates and staggered 2x4 studs.? From the data at the site I was surprised at a couple of things.? First, steel studs are meaningfully better the wood studs.? Second if building two walls, having drywall only on the two exterior sides is better than having drywall sides of the studs facing inside the double wall.??
I have decided to do double steel stud walls with 2 1/2" steel studs.? I think I want 20 gauge and not the cheaper 25 gauge. any input on that?
I will install 5/8" drywall inside, a layer of green glue, and a second layer of 5/8" drywall over that and then 5/8" drywall outside. If not quiet enough I will install green glue and a second layer of 5/8" drywall outside.
I need a door to access the drum and a door to access the filters.? I am fairly certain I will do some sort of stress skin construction for the doors.
Any suggestions on how to get the dust inlet sealed to the sound proof wall?? I am doing a folded duct with 5X the cross sectional area of the exhaust port for flow the air conditioned air back into the room.
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Single pivot will not allow a full 180 degree articulation unless 1 arm is above the other, but then that does not work out well for the hose. ?As for extra hose, for any boom arm, you need hose going from the vac to the boom arm, across the boom arm, and down to the tool. ?Smooth pipe is better than flex for maintaining CFM.?
With this boom arm, you will have the flex hose going vac to the boom arm and from the top of the boom arm to the tool, but within the boom arm, you have smooth wall pipe instead of flex hose (except at the mid pivot point.
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Looks very good. I have two questions. One, I can't quite get my head around the gears function in the knuckle joint. Is there a reason a single pivot point won't work? Two, I'm wondering how that much extra hose is going to effect performance of the vac.
Thanks Jason Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
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Basically a more simplified version. which is a good thing..
On Friday, May 22, 2020, 05:10:17 PM PDT, joelgelman via groups.io <joelgelman@...> wrote:
I now have 4 of the 2 inch OD angled thrust bearings and just ordered another gear. ?Those bearings will be used on the wood version of the middle pivot section. ?If all goes well, it will be possible to make a no-sag wood version of the aluminum contraption in 30 minutes with a drill bit, a 2 inch Forstner bit, the gears and bearings, and washers, nuts, and bolts. ?We will see.
The hose is on order. Two options were selected. ?One was more expensive but had the ability to stretch and compress from 12 to 2 inches instead of 12 to 6 inches. ?The idea is not have resistance to movement of the articulation.
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Re: Building a closet for dust collector
Come on Imran. Don¡¯t need to be so humble. You are most definitely correct.
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of imranindiana via groups.io
Sent: Friday, May 22, 2020 6:58 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Building a closet for dust collector? I am not an expert but I am pretty sure this is not correct. ¡°?That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.¡± Only a small portion of power being consumed is generating heat. ?Mark, I understand the thermal mass.? I often run the saw or shaper for an hour or two straight.? Sucking 110F air into my shop would definitely be a problem.? When running I have a 5HP dust collector and a 5HP saw, shaper, or sander running. That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.? My lighting is another 2.3kw.? 1kw of electric is 3412btu so 10kw of electric in is about 34K btu.? Over 3 tons of AC.? If I ran machines all the time and wanted to keep it cool when it's over 110F I would have had to have 10 tons of AC per the mechanical engineer.? That's without dumping exhaust outside.? Now if I were heating the machine heat would work for me and not against me.
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I now have 4 of the 2 inch OD angled thrust bearings and just ordered another gear. ?Those bearings will be used on the wood version of the middle pivot section. ?If all goes well, it will be possible to make a no-sag wood version of the aluminum contraption in 30 minutes with a drill bit, a 2 inch Forstner bit, the gears and bearings, and washers, nuts, and bolts. ?We will see.
The hose is on order. Two options were selected. ?One was more expensive but had the ability to stretch and compress from 12 to 2 inches instead of 12 to 6 inches. ?The idea is not have resistance to movement of the articulation.
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On May 22, 2020, at 4:07 PM, Randy Child via groups.io <strongman_one@...> wrote:
?As some of you know, Joel Gelman and I have been attempting to make an articulate boom arm.? After some trial and error (with more emphasis on error), I think I finally got the boom arm the way it's suppose to be.? I still have more to do with it, like hook the hoses onto it at the joint, but all in all, it turned out exactly the way I'd had hoped..
<20200522_130349.jpg> <IMG_20200522_134131_422.jpg> <IMG_20200522_134131_425.jpg> <IMG_20200522_134131_454.jpg>
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Re: Building a closet for dust collector
Joe,
I am not an expert but I am pretty sure this is not correct.
¡°?That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.¡±
Only a small portion of power being consumed is generating heat.
Imran
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Show quoted text
On May 22, 2020, at 7:48 PM, Joe Jensen <joe.jensen@...> wrote: ?Mark, I understand the thermal mass.? I often run the saw or shaper for an hour or two straight.? Sucking 110F air into my shop would definitely be a problem.? When running I have a 5HP dust collector and a 5HP saw, shaper, or sander running. That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.? My lighting is another 2.3kw.? 1kw of electric is 3412btu so 10kw of electric in is about 34K btu.? Over 3 tons of AC.? If I ran machines all the time and wanted to keep it cool when it's over 110F I would have had to have 10 tons of AC per the mechanical engineer.? That's without dumping exhaust outside.? Now if I were heating the machine heat would work for me and not against me.
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Of course.. Joel and I will be posting how to make this so anyone else who wants, can make their own.. all the details will be posted as well as where to buy the parts..
On Friday, May 22, 2020, 04:51:07 PM PDT, David Davies <myfinishingtouch@...> wrote:
Thanks for the explanation about the purpose of the second tube. Dave Davies
On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 6:28 PM Randy Child via <strongman_one= [email protected]> wrote:
the 1 PVC tube is for the dust collection, the other is for the electric power cord, and airline to feed thru. I have not attached the hoses that fit between the 2 arms at the joint yet..that's next
Randy, ? Why are there two? PVC tubes in each section? Dave Davies On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 6:07 PM Randy Child via <strongman_one= [email protected]> wrote: As some of you know, Joel Gelman and I have been attempting to make an articulate boom arm.? After some trial and error (with more emphasis on error), I think I finally got the boom arm the way it's suppose to be.? I still have more to do with it, like hook the hoses onto it at the joint, but all in all, it turned out exactly the way I'd had hoped..
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
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No..actually I drilled and used an adjustable reamer to bore the hole where I could press the bearings into the plate..it worked very well and there is no sag or loose play at all
On Friday, May 22, 2020, 04:44:37 PM PDT, Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> wrote:
Looks like those gears worked out well, good deal. Did you end up using any thrust bearings between the plates?
As some of you know, Joel Gelman and I have been attempting to make an articulate boom arm.? After some trial and error (with more emphasis on error), I think I finally got the boom arm the way it's suppose to be.? I still have more to do with it, like hook the hoses onto it at the joint, but all in all, it turned out exactly the way I'd had hoped..
<20200522_130349.jpg><IMG_20200522_134131_422.jpg><IMG_20200522_134131_425.jpg><IMG_20200522_134131_454.jpg>
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imran
marty shultz
Jason Holtz