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What Every person on the List Can Do
As a career foreign service officer, I've been to my share of tough
places. But nothing prepared me for yesterday's creep home, during which I was close enough to the Pentagon to see and smell the smoke and the general mayhem. Having lost friends and colleagues in the Berlin disco bombing, on the SS Cole and in embassies in Africa, I reflected on just how close I was to meeting my Maker and how precious life is. When I was finally reunited with my family, we hugged, we cried, we prayed, and we proudly hung our American flag, where I suspect it will remain hanging for a very long time. When all is said and done, I believe no one on this list will be unaffected by this senseless tragedy. What can you do? Give blood, donate your time or resources to agencies helping to aid the recovery, and you can pray. Pray to whoever or whatever your God might be, for healing, for reconciliation, and for understanding that will likely never come. Pray for your elected leaders and government, for wise decisions that need to made. Pray for the dead, the injured, for families, for recovery. Every person on this list can pray. We're down, but not out. God bless America! Scott in DC/MD |
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Re: frozen LP line
John Waterman
Erik,
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In some cases, users have had butane rather than propane in their tanks, which works great in warm weather, but not in cold. Also, on a new vehicle it is important to purge the propane tank before use. This consists merely of pumping in a pound or so of propane, venting it, putting in another pound, reventing, etc. Should be done 5 times according to Winnebago's service manual. John Erik L wrote:
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Re: OFFTOPIC: Re: Teach your children well.....
plthe
Your arguments had force on Monday. Today they're irrelevant. A substantial, well-financed, well-organized entity has murdred 10,000+ American civilians and another thousand military personnel. They've declared war without quarter on every American man, woman and child, not just on our government. Those who carried out the deed didn't mind dying for their cause. Those who sent them do, however. That's why they didn't go themselves. It's now our job to make them terrified for their own sorry skins, and for those of their wives and children and parents and friends and homes and land.
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And no, all Midddle Eastern Muslims don't hate us. Their radical elements hate all of us while their moderate elements remain silent--because they'd be murdered by the radicals if they spoke up--but they've voted with their feet by emigrating to America in very large numbers. And most of those love it here and love and respect America and what it stands for. OTOH the radicals you saw dancing in the streets would continue to hate all of us even if we did get out of the Middle East. Because we symbolize Western civilization, which they hate, and the twentieth century, which they hate (along with the preceeding four or five centuries), and because we're rich and comfortable, which they envy. If you'd like to understand the Middle East better than just blaming everything on our oil greed, try reading "From Beirut to Jerusalem" by Thomas L. Friedman. Especially the chapter on what Hafez Assad did to the town of Hama when it peacefully opposed his rule of Syria. Assad followed Machiavelli's dicturm "Men must be caressed or annihilated." Assad had every man in the town killed. This didn't alter Assad's standing in the Middle East. He was simply seen as a tough guy who'd proven he could rule. Don't assume from what I'm saying that I think "Israelis good, Arabs bad." I still think Israel's unprovoked attack on a U.S. Navy vessel decades ago (in which they murdered dozens of Americans) was unconscionable, and that we should have brought the perpetrators to justice and cut off all aid to Israel if it didn't cooperate. But we did the usual State Dept. craven shuffle and let Israel get away with it scott free. And I've felt the Palestinians have certainly gotten a raw deal. Israelis talk contemptuously of menial gigs as being "Arab jobs," consistently discriminate against Israeli citizens who are Arabs, continue to build Israeli settlements in the occupied territories as fast as they can, and carry out their attacks on Palestinians using American military gear bought on the cheap from us. However, we're now at war. Just because the enemy may not be a country's government--though you can't rule out Iraq at this point--doesn't change that fact. And if we don't want to get our butts kicked by everyone everywhile with a grievance against the top dog country, we've got to go to war ourselves now. War means you don't send cops to arrest the bad guys. You find them and kill them. That what happens in a war. We're at a huge disadvantage, because they regard every American (even would-be Americans) as a target, and we only regard the radical groups as targets. And everyone knows who we are, while they're doing their best to conceal who they are. It's as if the aircraft that attacked Pearl Harbor had no markings. But I have a feeling we can figure out who did it. And as Bush (who I didn't vote for) said, those who harbor the murderers will be treated exactly the same as them. If that's one or more countries, they just declared war on us in the most unambigous way possible. We had such a foe in Japan during WWII. They only quit trying to kill us when we convinced them that we had both the will and the means to make Japan itself cease to exist. They were as stubborn and ideologically committed as the Islamic extremists are. But they stopped when we upped the ante sufficiently. And afterwards, we created a grateful ally when we were magnanimous in victory, just as we were to Germany and Italy. But the magnanimous part can only come after victory. As Polonius said to Laertes, "Beware of entrance to a quarrel, but being in, bear't that the opposed may beware of thee." Lee Th¨¦ 97 EVC Palo Alto, CA ----- Original Message -----
From: serge@... To: ev_update@... Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 4:59 PM Subject: [ev_update] Re: Teach your children well..... --- In ev_update@y..., "Chase, Dale" <papillon@s...> wrote: > No easy answers. All I can think of is, "How do we break the > cycle of violence." How about getting the hell out of the mideast? We probably lost today in less than an hour about the same number of lives we lost in the ENTIRE Vietnam war! The ordinary Palestinians, and their children, are dancing in the streets and smiling through the windshields of THEIR Eurovans! All this to keep the price of gas for OUR Eurovans below $2/gallon? This isn't about some small group of political leaders, or crazed terrorists, that are angry at us. This is an ENTIRE population. And they hate all of us, even the Eurovanners. It's long past time we, as citizens of a democracy, took our heads out of the sand, and all really looked at what we've done over there, what we're doing now, and WHY they hate us SO much. Serge 2001 EVC "Beluga" Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Start here... Height: 345678 ft 01234567891011in Weight: lbs. kg. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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Re: Teach your children well.....
In a message dated 9/11/01 11:42:03 PM, wmeyer@... writes:
<< those who breathe retribution and hate here in america are the same who piloted this tradegy. like a dog growling at it's image in a mirror, the haters will never recognize themselves, but always find their partners in hell. >> Amen, amen, amen. But do we each see our very own mirrored part in this??? When we heal the violence, bitterness, disilusionment and lack of reverence we each have in our hearts for any part of the human family, the reflection in the mirror will gradually change. Its an inside job to develop our spiritual selves and be part of the solution, instead of plans of further retaliation which just perpetuates a disguised form of the same finger-pointing terrorism. Until we each do that, the "world" will not change, and we are each just hawks in lily-white victim clothing. There is but one human family composed of individuals at war within our own selves, and I see this horrific tragedy as an outpicturing of our collective blindness and spiritual poverty. We value "trade and stuff and territory and power to be on top, more than reverence for all of Life and life's forms. Someone said, I've met the enemy and "they" are "us". A new worldview is struggling to emerge and all the territory protection in the universe will never replace our inner craving to be at peace within our own hearts. This takes slowing down and doing a lot of homework of self reflection, meditation, prayer, loving service. But first you have to get off the treadmill and out of the idea of "my" family, "my" country. "my" boundaries. Many of us have just begun to even consider such ideas as being worthy. Its good to read the Dalai Lama and Deepak Choprah, and writing like those visionaries, instead of being hypnotized by political strategies of attack as solution. All of our political leaders and much of humanity are self-righteous finger pointers too asleep to realize retribution and a retaliatory attitude will bring about more of the same insanity. Just disguised and diluted versions of a warring part of our psyches that need healing. Sentimentality and sympathy that are natural outcomes of tragedy are good as wake up calls to come together, but they can keep us in a soap opera approach that triggers the blame and separation of victim/perpetrator mentality. This is a start, at least, but only spiritual healing will ever satisfy. And I am not talking in the least about "religion". If God gave us the universe to learn to play and love in, I don't think s/he drew lines on the globe that were meant to keep "others" out. That was man's invention, and it clearly does not work and never will. Peace cannot be enforced or policed, it must be discovered within and then shared. This is a worthy lifeswork that truly satisfies, instead of pursuing temporary satisfaction of its "symbols". Barbara/Florida |
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Re: Teach your children well.....
wiliam meyer
to roy and madeleine - i send my love and regards. those who breathe
retribution and hate here in america are the same who piloted this tradegy. like a dog growling at it's image in a mirror, the haters will never recognize themselves, but always find their partners in hell. |
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Re: Teach your children well.....
Madeleine Dewar
Very well said William.
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Peace, Love and Serenity, Madeleine ----- Original Message -----
From: wiliam meyer To: ev_update@... Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 6:54 PM Subject: Re: [ev_update] Teach your children well..... the world order has changed. the relative freedom and openness of america has been challenged. now we must see how much we believe in these values. in order to preserve our openness we must immediately learn to fight the new war against small bands of terrorists. meanwhile, we must all steady ourselves and continue to learn how to be better and more decent people. there is no other responce possible to madness and violence. i would prefer we had a goverment that did not seem so tied to the expansion of multinational corporation as it's primary goal. mercantilism is not an absolute value and neither is a cowboy mentality. we no longer live in a wide open ignorant frontier society. i advocate the values of humor, intelligence, and tolerance. so, i have said this and will not comment again on this subject. william Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. |
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Re: Teach your children well.....
Laurel
If you want/need to discuss today's events go to:
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www.clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/september11 (forwarded message, no personal endorsement) Can we get back to EV issues? We can not solve (in some cases don't even |
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Re: Teach your children well.....
Nakamura, Roy M
Serge... it "is" more complicated than that. Ever ask a Jewish person about
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Palestine? Have you every hear a Palestinian talk about how they believe that Israel stole their land? It's ugly... a war (hatred) that's been going for many generations. While that's not a concern to most of us Americans... we are "selling" weapons to Israel who then uses them to cause death and destruction in Palestine. I'm not passing judgement on anyone... I was only trying to correct a statement that was made about that Palestine was pissed at us because of our oil interests. I think it's more complicated than that. I pray for everyone who was injured or died... regardless of where they happen to be living. It is very complicated... and there's no answer to questions that the Jews and Palestinians are asking each other. Roy 99 EVC -----Original Message----- |
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Re: Teach your children well.....
Madeleine Dewar
I am monitoring another newsgroup that I read regularly (an RV UseNet list) and differences in the posts between our ev group and that "other" group is dramatic. There are definite voices of reason in that group, but many more posts are those of retribution and hate. We frequently talk about our being different as ev owners... different drummer and all that... We indeed are marching to... etc.
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Peace, Love and Serenity, Madeleine ----- Original Message -----
From: Michael G. McCarthy To: ev_update@... Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 8:08 PM Subject: Re: [ev_update] Re: Teach your children well..... > So what is it about our "world view" (that dictates > our actions in that part of the world) that has these > folks (many of whom drive Eurovans) SO angry at us? Re-read your first paragraph below....the answer to your question is right there. And I agree this is a conversation that must be had. We can take a break from tires and port-a-potties and trade-in values for a while. ---------- From: serge@... To: ev_update@... Subject: [ev_update] Re: Teach your children well..... Date: Tue, Sep 11, 2001, 8:59 PM I wouldn't get too hung up on terms. As far as I'm concerned, the American midwest is... OREGON. Or some place between California and Hawaii, for that matter. Names are names. We need common names so we all know what we're talking about so we can communicate effectively. If I say "mideast", everyone knows what I mean. If I use "Southwest Asia", it will confuse people. VW named my car "Eurovan". I prefer "Eurobus", but what can I do? Type in "World Trade Center" at google.com. Ours is (was) by far not the only one. Again, it's a common term that means something within a given context. If you analyze it for linguistic accuracy you're going to misinterpret it. People languages are not exacting like computer languages. Ok, maybe it's not about oil for our Eurovans. Maybe it is about "differing world views". My challenge -- to get our heads out of the sand -- still stands. So what is it about our "world view" (that dictates our actions in that part of the world) that has these folks (many of whom drive Eurovans) SO angry at us? This is the conversation that should be happening at every dinner table, water cooler, campsite, and, yes, discussion board, in this country for weeks, if not months, to come. Tens of thousands of lives lost today deserve at least that much. Serge 2001 EVC "Beluga" Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <> . Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. |
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Re: Teach your children well.....
--- In ev_update@y..., "Nakamura, Roy M" <Roy.Nakamura@W...> wrote:
They [the Palestinians] were celebrating because now theySo the Palestinians hate us for selling weapons to Israel? Don't we sell weapons in Ireland too? I don't see them hating, much less terrorizing, us. Is that just a difference between Palestinians and the Irish, or is there more going on? |
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Re: Teach your children well.....
Michael G. McCarthy
I have a different theory of WWII entirely......it was SCIENCE run amuck.
It was the notion of the technical perfectibility of the mankind carried to an obscene degree, and even the "ordinary" person understood that, and often wholeheartedly approved. It was quite easy to make peace after the war because, in the final analysis, we weren't all that different from each other. ---------- From: serge@... To: ev_update@... Subject: [ev_update] Re: Teach your children well..... Date: Tue, Sep 11, 2001, 9:11 PM Its really very simple to end the cycle of violence and stopI'm no historian, but there seems to be a fundamental difference between the WWII situation and the current situation. In WWII, our enemy was clear - it was the governments of Germany, Japan and Italy; it was the military of these countries empowered by these governments. The ordinary PEOPLE of Germany, Japan and Italy did not hate Americans. Now, there is no specific government or military that is clearly an enemy. Yes, Iraq has a bone to pick with us because we defended Kuwait from there invastion, but that situation is relatively under control. And, again, there, the people of Iraq don't seem to hate us so much. I don't think this attack has anything to do with our "world view" with respect to Iraq. Or Iran for that matter. In an ordinary war, like WWII, the targets tend to be military targets. The World Trade Center is a civilian target. What does that tell you? We hunted down the small groups who "hate us so much" and putThat's not what happened in WWII. We put on trial the military leaders responsible for war crimes. There were no groups of people who "hated us so much". Now in the mideast there are LARGE groups of ordinary Eurovan-driving people who hate us so much. WHY??? Serge 2001 EVC "Beluga" Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <> . |
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Re: Teach your children well.....
--- In ev_update@y..., "Michael G. McCarthy" <mgmccarthy@c...> wrote:
First paragraph below:So what is it about our "world view" (that dictatesRe-read your first paragraph below....the answer to your question I wouldn't get too hung up on terms. As far as I'm concerned, thewe all know what we're talking about so we can communicate effectively.I don't get it. You think it's all about terminology? Serge |
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Re: Teach your children well.....
Nakamura, Roy M
Uh... I'm definately not the expert here... but I don't believe the
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"Palestinians" were celebrating because we wanted to keep the price of oil down. They were celebrating because now they believe that we Americans can feel the pains that they have been going through in the part of the world that was once known as "Palestine" by being attracted by USA made weapons that we sell to Israel. As long as we're alias with Israel we'll have to accept that the Palestinians will hate us. I believe the issue is called the "Holy War"... not the Gas War? If the issue is with the Arab countries... then yes... oil. The Palestinians insensitive and barbaric for celebrating... yes; But, is it any different than what we did during the gulf war.. remember?,,, as the bombs were falling in Iran? I recall a sudden spurt of patriotism and jubilation. Let me quote an "infamous" American.... "Ca we all get along?" Roy 99 EVC -----Original Message----- |
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Re: Teach your children well.....
Its really very simple to end the cycle of violence and stopI'm no historian, but there seems to be a fundamental difference between the WWII situation and the current situation. In WWII, our enemy was clear - it was the governments of Germany, Japan and Italy; it was the military of these countries empowered by these governments. The ordinary PEOPLE of Germany, Japan and Italy did not hate Americans. Now, there is no specific government or military that is clearly an enemy. Yes, Iraq has a bone to pick with us because we defended Kuwait from there invastion, but that situation is relatively under control. And, again, there, the people of Iraq don't seem to hate us so much. I don't think this attack has anything to do with our "world view" with respect to Iraq. Or Iran for that matter. In an ordinary war, like WWII, the targets tend to be military targets. The World Trade Center is a civilian target. What does that tell you? We hunted down the small groups who "hate us so much" and putThat's not what happened in WWII. We put on trial the military leaders responsible for war crimes. There were no groups of people who "hated us so much". Now in the mideast there are LARGE groups of ordinary Eurovan-driving people who hate us so much. WHY??? Serge 2001 EVC "Beluga" |
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Re: Teach your children well.....
Michael G. McCarthy
So what is it about our "world view" (that dictatesRe-read your first paragraph below....the answer to your question is right there. And I agree this is a conversation that must be had. We can take a break from tires and port-a-potties and trade-in values for a while. ---------- From: serge@... To: ev_update@... Subject: [ev_update] Re: Teach your children well..... Date: Tue, Sep 11, 2001, 8:59 PM I wouldn't get too hung up on terms. As far as I'm concerned, the American midwest is... OREGON. Or some place between California and Hawaii, for that matter. Names are names. We need common names so we all know what we're talking about so we can communicate effectively. If I say "mideast", everyone knows what I mean. If I use "Southwest Asia", it will confuse people. VW named my car "Eurovan". I prefer "Eurobus", but what can I do? Type in "World Trade Center" at google.com. Ours is (was) by far not the only one. Again, it's a common term that means something within a given context. If you analyze it for linguistic accuracy you're going to misinterpret it. People languages are not exacting like computer languages. Ok, maybe it's not about oil for our Eurovans. Maybe it is about "differing world views". My challenge -- to get our heads out of the sand -- still stands. So what is it about our "world view" (that dictates our actions in that part of the world) that has these folks (many of whom drive Eurovans) SO angry at us? This is the conversation that should be happening at every dinner table, water cooler, campsite, and, yes, discussion board, in this country for weeks, if not months, to come. Tens of thousands of lives lost today deserve at least that much. Serge 2001 EVC "Beluga" Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <> . |
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The path we will choose.......
I usually refrain from making political or moral statements in
public, especially when I am not directly asked for it. However, as an International Relations and Conflict Resolution professor who taught in Europe, Washington DC, and now in Portland OR and as a researcher at Oregon Peace Institute,(OPI), allow me to offer this thought: "On this day of international crisis, we find ourselves at a crossroads on the path of human development where two choices are before us--pursuing revenge through death and destruction or choosing the path of life and transformation. Rather than seeking violent retribution against whole communities for the actions of individuals, this is a time to work for tolerance and understanding of the diversity within the human family. We, at OPI, call upon everyone to use this crisis as an opportunity to acknowledge and transform intra- and interpersonal relationships to conflict. It is though our emotional and spiritual development that we can secure the peace of our planet. We invite all people to hold in their hearts a positive vision for the future." I hope that lesser thoughts of recipricating violence will leave us forever. If not, the question someone asked here today "Why do they hate us so much?" will still remain valid for a long time. PEACE! -Pawel Kepinski |
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Re: Teach your children well.....
I wouldn't get too hung up on terms. As far as I'm concerned, the
American midwest is... OREGON. Or some place between California and Hawaii, for that matter. Names are names. We need common names so we all know what we're talking about so we can communicate effectively. If I say "mideast", everyone knows what I mean. If I use "Southwest Asia", it will confuse people. VW named my car "Eurovan". I prefer "Eurobus", but what can I do? Type in "World Trade Center" at google.com. Ours is (was) by far not the only one. Again, it's a common term that means something within a given context. If you analyze it for linguistic accuracy you're going to misinterpret it. People languages are not exacting like computer languages. Ok, maybe it's not about oil for our Eurovans. Maybe it is about "differing world views". My challenge -- to get our heads out of the sand -- still stands. So what is it about our "world view" (that dictates our actions in that part of the world) that has these folks (many of whom drive Eurovans) SO angry at us? This is the conversation that should be happening at every dinner table, water cooler, campsite, and, yes, discussion board, in this country for weeks, if not months, to come. Tens of thousands of lives lost today deserve at least that much. Serge 2001 EVC "Beluga" |
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Re: Teach your children well.....
Donald
--- In ev_update@y..., serge@s... wrote:
--- In ev_update@y..., "Chase, Dale" <papillon@s...> wrote:todayNo easy answers. All I can think of is, "How do we break theHow about getting the hell out of the mideast? We probably lost in less than an hour about the same number of lives we lost in theAnd they hate all of us, even the Eurovanners. It's long past time we,as citizens of a democracy, took our heads out of the sand, and alland WHY they hate us SO much.Its really very simple to end the cycle of violence and stop certain small populations from hating us. Anyone remember WW II? We took the two most agressive and hated countries on Earth (Germany & Japan) and turned them around utterly. We hunted down the small groups who "hate us so much" and put them on trial for their war crimes. Then we set up governments so that this sort of thing can never happen again. Now, 50 years latter, we are driving VW's and Toy***'s! Its time to do it again in the mideast. Yes, get our heads out of the sand and find these people who "hate us so much" and take care of them. It will not be easy or painless but we simply can't allow such populations of hate to exist anymore.
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