Keyboard Shortcuts
ctrl + shift + ? :
Show all keyboard shortcuts
ctrl + g :
Navigate to a group
ctrl + shift + f :
Find
ctrl + / :
Quick actions
esc to dismiss
Likes
- Digitalhobbyist
- Messages
Search
|
Re: RELS project info wanted
#RELS
Hi, Ralph,
There are Constants, Feed, Taper and Thread tables all on separate tabs within the single spreadsheet "RELS_Metric_Calculation sheet_V2-33.ods". Is this what you are referring to? If not, could you please clarify what you think is missing?
-- Regards, Charlie New Jersey, USA LAW OF ANNOYANCE: When working on a project, if you put away a tool that you¡¯re certain you¡¯re finished with, you will need it instantly. |
|
Re: RELS project info wanted
#RELS
I downloaded?RELS_Metric_ Calculation sheet_V2-33.ods?
--?? There are other tables referenced where are they? Ralph Clausing 8520, Craftsman 12x36 Lathe, 4x12 mini lathe, 14" Delta drill press, 40 watt laser, Consew brushless DC motors and a non working 3D printer |
|
Re: RELS project info wanted
#RELS
Hello, All,
A new version V2-33 of the spreadsheet has been placed in the Files area. This corrects a minor bug in the previous version. Sketch V2-32 has also been updated, but the only change was to correct the version number being displayed when the program was started. -- Regards, Charlie New Jersey, USA LAW OF ANNOYANCE: When working on a project, if you put away a tool that you¡¯re certain you¡¯re finished with, you will need it instantly. |
|
Re: RELS project info wanted
#RELS
Richard
Just a small correction with regard to the RELS
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
The encoder needs an A and B signal. It only becomes "A quadratic one" if the hardware or software reads it as such. The RELS actually reads an 1800 line encoder as 1800 pulses when in feed and 3600 pulses when in Taper and Threading. It does not read at 7200 pulses per rev. Having seen problems I am very wary of 5-24vDC encoders running on 5v. With regard to the rest of the kit mentioned up to the user. I happily use a 36v powered stepper system with? a 3Nm motor drive a 3mm pitch Z screw at 2:1 and a 1.8Nm motor driving a 2.5mm pitch X screw. My max spindle speed is about 1300 rpm. Not sure about the nicer"Code Quality", I am happy with the extra functions the RELS offers Richard On 20/02/2020 22:27, alexphredorg wrote:
There is a schematic in the files section that shows the parts |
|
Re: RELS project info wanted
#RELS
Richard
There isn't one at this moment but I am sure we can pull one together in
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
the next couple of days. As far as the encoder is concerned you have a couple of options. First and best fit an 1800 line encoder and drive 1:1 from the spindle Second and works for a few of us fit a 600 line or more encoder and drive at 3:1 or less to suit what you have picked This option to a degree limits your max spindle speed as the encoder will be running maybe 3 times faster than the spindle. You just need an encoder with an A and B signal, you do not need a Z signal (1 pulse per rev). Ignore quadrature numbers just pick based on the number of lines. I will look at producing a parts list. Richard On 20/02/2020 21:16, Chuck Pickering via Groups.Io wrote:
Is there a parts list for the Arduino based ELS? What encoder is |
|
Re: RELS project info wanted
#RELS
¿ªÔÆÌåÓý
There is a schematic in the files section that shows the parts necessary to interface to the Arduino.? Here is a link:
It looks like a simple encoder is used, not a quadratic one that can also tell direction.? The spreadsheet lets you configure many encoder pulses there are per revolution.? You could use a quadratic encoder and just listen to the A signal and get it working.
On my Emco Compact 10 I'm using the same encoder shown here under "Lathe-specific Parts", except that you'd also want a second stepper and drive if you are also putting a stepper on X.
I think everything listed there will work for this or the RELS.? The "Standard Parts" section of that page is specific to the Clough42 ELS (which uses a different microcontroller and display, has fewer features, but has much nicer code quality).
I've posted a couple of photos of my lathe here, including a short video with the ELS in operation:
I've 3d printed my stepper and encoder mount, but will be CNC'ing these out of steel (at least the stepper mount) next month when I have a bit more shop time.? It would be better to use a proper timing belt for the encoder, but I need to make a 2-part pulley
to fit on my spindle for that so right now I'm just running a round belt on the spindle and an identical sized pulley that I 3d printed.? I've run for many minutes at high speed without them coming out of sync.? The encoder has smooth bearings with almost
zero resistance, so belt slippage is unlikely.
The ELS feature that I'm considering adding next is constant surface speed turning by reading X position off of a linear scale and using that to automatically adjust spindle speed through the VFD.? To turn this on you'll need to tell the ELS display the OD
of the object being turned so that it can compute relative sizes as you adjust X.? An alternative is to build a tool table so that it can always compute it from zero, but I think that is more work to maintain that tool table.
alex
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Chuck Pickering via Groups.Io <chunk07@...>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 1:16 PM To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] RELS project info wanted #RELS ?
Is there a parts list for the Arduino based ELS? What encoder is everyone using?
|
|
Re: RELS project info wanted
#RELS
Richard
Glad you are up and running with the Clough42 system.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I have re-loaded the current RELS files to the Files area, I pulled them originally as I determined an error (my fault!). The system will happily run without an X drive but as you say fitting one gives greater functionality. The tapering option works extremely well. If the X drive is fitted it is only "Enabled" when needed, so apart from a little detent type feeling when manually moving X there are no problems. What lathe are you working with? I have a Denford Viceroy and four photos of my X stepper mount are in the RELS folder in an "X Stepper mount" folder. Hopefully others will add their photos with descriptions. My mount is well over the top but I needed to extend it back to give room for the top slide and I had "thick" material. There is an Oldham coupling between stepper and extension piece mounted in a bearing. The end of the lead-screw was turned down a tad to enter the extension piece where it was pinned. The mount was screwed and dowelled to the rear of the carriage after the lead-screw to extension piece alignment was proved. Good luck Richard On 19/02/2020 22:36, alexphredorg wrote:
I have the clough42 ELS implemented on my lathe, I got it all wired up |
|
Re: RELS project info wanted
#RELS
¿ªÔÆÌåÓý
I have the clough42 ELS implemented on my lathe, I got it all wired up and working over the weekend.? It works well and was pretty easy to get working.
It's a very simple system and that works well for my needs now.? It only has a stepper on Z, not on X, so it can't do some of the RELS functionality like turning a taper.? It doesn't even have the ability to turn to a shoulder, but I'm going to add that to
it.? The clough42 control panel is quite simple (8 7-segment digits and 8 LEDs), but I'm going to replace that with a 4 line text display.??
Can you post the RELS spreadsheet and Arduino sketch?? I just checked and they aren't in the files section.? There is a little readme listing some of the functionality and showing how it wires up to the Arduino.
Does the RELS function without an X stepper, or is that an intricate requirement?? I'd be interested to see some photos of how that X stepper has been integrated without getting in the way of having a manually controlled X axis handle.
alex
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Richard via Groups.Io <edelec@...>
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2020 10:46 AM To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] RELS project info wanted #RELS ?
I will be interested to hear how you get on with the Clough42 system.
I totally agree that it the expenditure on mechanics, drives, steppers and Power supplies is the major part of a system. Again interchangeability is easy, I can swap from my lathes ELS to CNC in a few minutes, and with initial design thought could swap over to a different ELS. Good Luck Richard On 11/02/2020 18:13, alexphredorg wrote: > I used Clough42 because it is very well documented both in hardware > installation and software design and covered my needs. It is a simpler > system than most (for instance it has limited UI options based on the > 8 digit display and some fixed LED) with less functionality as a > result.? I will likely improve that over time, maybe adding a better > display and more functionality.? The good documentation (both written > and through YouTube videos) made it pretty straight forward to figure > out how to adapt it to my lathe. > > It's also pretty easy to swap out the actual control logic between > these ELS systems.? The microcontroller and code are the cheap part of > the system, the stepper or servo drive and custom brackets and pulleys > is a bigger investment in money and time. > > alex > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> on > behalf of Richard via Groups.Io <edelec@...> > *Sent:* Monday, February 10, 2020 11:16 PM > *To:* [email protected] <[email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [digitalhobbyist] RELS project info wanted #RELS > I have put the Sketch and a Spreadsheet in the "Files" area. The > Spreadsheet is used to generate the system parameters for "Your" lathe. > This is based on Metric values only for the moment. However the only > time you might be aware of that is that the "Feed" pitches are in > Metric. The unit will happily install and run on an imperial machine. > Metric and Imperial thread pitches LH and RH are both available, Manual > and Automatic, together with the ability to cut any taper Internal or > External. > I will be doing a write up on the system to explain what it can do in > the near future. > I would be interested to know why you picked on the Clough42 system for > your lathe. > Good Luck > Richard > > > On 10/02/2020 16:02, alexphredorg wrote: > > > > Is there a GitHub or other page for the RELS project being discussed > > on this list? ?I think I¡¯ve read all of the posts but never found a > > summary page or link to the source code. > > > > I¡¯m currently adding an electronic leadscrew to my Emco Compact 10 > > using the Clough42 system but I¡¯m curious to see other similar > > alternatives. > > > > thanks, > > alex > > > > > > > > > |
|
Re: Step #1 Encoder
#RELS
I tried to find the Gecko motors but they make a lot of things so no luck.
I did note they seem to have premium prices. The Trinamic Motor Control 5160 on a Silent Stepper Stick breakout board costs ?15-?20 less if you buy a pair. Should let you do the same thing and possibly more. I know conventional wisdom is you pay for quality and cheap is crap but China works on high volume low margins. Having the largest domestic population in the world helps. As does having a massive export industry. Times have changed. They may change again. For however long it lasts we're currently in a paradise of cheap but reliable with marvellous specs. Ant? |
|
Re: connecting MPG
#MISC
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýIf that's a USB Pendant then you probably don't? enable MPG. I found with my far east one that it wasn't needed.? The pendant duplicates key presses.? I think¡ ? John ? ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of phill005
Sent: February-17-20 3:56 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [digitalhobbyist] connecting MPG #MISC ? Having a little trouble connecting a German MPG encoder to Mach3 all the buttons are recognised on the mach screen but no movement when I rotate dial. |
|
connecting MPG
#MISC
Having a little trouble connecting a German MPG encoder to Mach3 all the buttons are recognised on the mach screen but no movement when I rotate dial.
I don't have any motors connected yet just testing on screen have gone into Config: ports & pins: enabled MPG#1 now not sure what to put into A-port A-pin? &? B-port B-pin, I have read to enable Encoder #1 as well again not sure what to put into A & B boxes can anyone advise please. Phill |
|
Re: Step #1 Encoder
#RELS
The 5160 does include a dc step mode which adjusts speed based on load.
Ant? |
|
Re: Step #1 Encoder
#RELS
Be aware that although stallguard sounds like a built in encoder it's only to guard against stalls and allow sensorless homing (maybe one day).
Not sure which version this describes, the 5160 is v2, but this gives a guide to the use and limitations. Ant? |
|
Re: Step #1 Encoder
#RELS
Looked through that slide show.
Modern drivers do take care of resonance and other issues intrinsic to steppers. They also provide fine positional control as evidenced by astrophotography applications which are very sensitive to errors. Albeit with high gearing also. In actual real world testing a TMC2130 without encoder performed as well as the MKS42B with magnetic encoder. The TMC5160 is the latest and greatest member of that family. But your milage may vary because it's a different application. Ant? |
|
Re: Step #1 Encoder
#RELS
These particular sticks have been in the pipeline for a long time. We've been waiting for them and now they're here they replace most of the drivers we used to use. They are pretty amazing.
I'm astounded at how much you can get for how little money and just how advanced they have become. Ant? |
|
Re: Step #1 Encoder
#RELS
They can give extra precision up to around 16 microsteps. Providing your gearing is sufficient that the diminished torque works.
With the high gear ratios scopes use even higher than 16ms can be useful, without encoder feedback. It all comes down to the reduced torque, initial torque and load. Horses for courses though, it depends on your application. Turns out the 5160 does have internal load sensing built in. In addition to the specs below, which allow 3A at 35V, extenal MOSFETs can be used, with cooling, up to 20A. "Based on the TMC5160 stepper motor controller, the TMC5160 SilentStepStick is a tiny breakout board that can drive motors up to 3A phase current at 35V. The TMC5160 motion controller and driver chip is designed to interface between a CPU and a high power stepper motor. All stepper motor logic is completely within the TMC5160, with no software required to control the motor. The IC supports a motor supply voltage range of 8V to 60V and features a resolution of 256 microsteps per full step. It represents an extension of the capabilities of the Trinamic TMC2100, TMC2130, and TMC5130 family to higher voltages and higher motor currents. The IC incorporates single-wire-UART and SPI communication interfaces. It combines a flexible ramp generator for automatic target positioning with what is claimed to be the industry¡¯s most advanced stepper motor driver. The TMC5160 is available in a 9 x 9 mm2 TQFP48 package or an 8 x 8 mm? QFN package. Advanced Control Technologies Incorporated with the TMC5160 StealthChop: Silencing Stepper Motors StealthChop is a voltage chopper-based principle that claims absolutely quiet operation in standstill or slow motion. Motors operating at low speeds exhibit a phenomenon known as magnetostriction, which causes audible high-pitch noise. Based on the current feedback, the StealthChop regulates voltage modulation to minimize current fluctuation. This capability is relevant for applications such as 3D printing, desktop manufacturing, and personal medical devices where audible noise is unacceptable. StallGuard: Sensorless Load Measurement for Stepper Motors StallGuard is said to be the first sensorless load measurement capability embedded in a standard stepper driver. It monitors the load by measuring electrical energy flowing in and out of motors and how much energy returns to the power supply. This is important because the motor will likely stall when no energy remains. Additionally, StallGuard provides real-time feedback on the load angle and eliminates the need for reference or end switches. The IC was specially designed for situations when precise referencing is required and when an application requires high-resolution feedback and continuous system condition monitoring. TMC5160 SilentStepStick Specs The TMC5160 SilentStepStick is an IC Breakout board built around the TMC5160. Features Include: ??? Step/Dir and SPI interface ??? Configuration via SPI or CFG pins ??? Up to 256x microstepping ??? 3 to 5V logic supply voltage ??? For 10V to 35V motors with up to 3.0A RMS ??? Standby current reduction ??? Board width is 0.6 in. and length is 0.8 in. |
|
Re: Step #1 Encoder
#RELS
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýThe Gecko stepper drives, if the rumour is correct, does exactly that.? Microstepping a stepper motor does not give better positioning accuracy unless it's close looped with an encoder.? ?That's because certain positions have far less torque because there is far less current so the load on the motor prevents it from turning. ? Take one your motors and couple it to some load.? Then step it in micro-steps and track it with a dial indicator. Not the 18 micro-steps it takes to move 0.001" but one micro-step at a time. ? What micro-stepping does, and it's primary reason for being isto keep the torque constant through the resonance spot of the motor. From ? ? Above that point micro-stepping isn't needed and I believe the Gecko switches over from Micro to full steps. The result is higher speed with more torque.? ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ant No
Sent: February-15-20 2:55 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] Step #1 Encoder ? From what I can understand, very little, it seems that being able to switch microsteps on the fly changes the practabilty of stepper motors. |
|
Re: Step #1 Encoder
#RELS
The cheaper MKS uses the A1333 encoder. At first people all thought it was the lesser encoder, based on the bits.
Khalid dug down to the truth. Alex actually bought a pair and did extensive testing. "On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 05:28 PM, Alexander Varakin wrote:
That is what I thought too, based on the 12bits vs. 14bits specs.?Looking at the datasheets, I see that A1333 has a lower resolution - 12 bits, whereas AS5047D?has 14 bits.? But the datasheet for the AS5047D says otherwise: 2048 clicks maximum. Also, in the??there are these lines in the respective header file for each model: #define A1333_DEGREES_PER_BIT? (360.0/(float)(0x7FFF)) So: 0.0109 degree per bit #define AS5047D_DEGREES_PER_BIT? (360.0/(float)(0x3FFF)) So: 0.0219 degree per bit No wonder MKS went with the A1333. Khalid" |
|
Re: Step #1 Encoder
#RELS
From what I can understand, very little, it seems that being able to switch microsteps on the fly changes the practabilty of stepper motors.
Of course you still need a suitably sized motor that's up to the forces needed with the chosen gearing. But it does open up new possibilities by making a given set up more versatile. I'm not sure how at the moment but it seems that if you had some kind of feedback you could write the control software to dynamically alter steps to respond to how easily the material cuts; automatically optimising speed, precision and torque as best as possible with a given rig. But...I know nothing. I just like interesting things. Ant ? |
to navigate to use esc to dismiss