I have it entered as June, 1941. ? Robert Downs ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of David Beierl Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 21:25 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced? I'm not familiar with all? this terminology - what is the 618??
Sorry -- 618 was their six by eighteen inch lathe.? Minimum speed in back gear 54 rpm.? I have my grandfather's, delivered in '40 (or maybe '41?? Robert knows because I used to have the delivery papers and told him about them).?
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Re: glass scales for atlas 12" lathe #3986
Hi Dennis,? Yeah, DRO is kind of handy for that! Micrometer stops and indicators won't really help much. Nice.? Dave Matticks?
Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
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-------- Original message -------- From: "Dennis Williams via Groups.Io" <dwhog@...> Date: 2/14/19 18:41 (GMT-06:00) Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] glass scales for atlas 12" lathe #3986
I turn these , and dro¡¯s come in real handy.
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These are the folks I bought mine from, though I can't swear this is the same edition I have. They have a couple of listings, and you can ask them if it matches the info in Robert's MOLO history. IIRC, that is what I did, and the one I got was the the correct one for my 10F/TH42.
HTH!
Bill in OKC
On Sunday, February 17, 2019, 11:23:20 AM CST, Stan Gorodenski <stanlep@...> wrote:
Robert, I have the "Atlas Manual of Lathe Operation". This is the beat up manual I made reference to earlier. The reprint date on it is 1961. It does not include the 10", just the 12" and 6", as far as I can tell. A couple years ago I went all through this searching the internet for these manuals and could not find a pdf for the 10". One of the souces was
Maybe I missed something there. Is there a web site where I can get this manual? Stan
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On 2/17/2019 1:14 AM, Robert Downs via Groups.Io wrote: You are correct in saying that the surface speed is important when machining on a lathe.? But surface speed depends upon spindle RPM and diameter of the part.? It has nothing to do with what the swing of the lathe is, other than that you obviously can¡¯t machine a part larger in diameter than the swing.? You need to get a copy of the Atlas Manual of Lathe Operations (MOLO) that matches the 10F.? Download and read the MOLO history and version selection document from Files.? Prior to 1954, you can¡¯t tell the version from information on the Copyright page because all 15 Editions just say Copyright 1937.
There is a diameter versus RPM versus SFM chart in the MOLO.
Robert Downs
*From:*[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Stan Gorodenski *Sent:* Saturday, February 16, 2019 17:14 *To:* [email protected] *Subject:* Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced
Therefore, the spindle rpm for my lathe has to be increased by 37/7/31.42. The max direct rpm for the 12" is 2072 and so this means the direct drive rpm for my 10" has to be? 2486 for the surface speeds to be equal between the two swings (the 12" and the 10")
2486 seems to be too fast an rpm for my 10" lathe. Is this correct"? Stan
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If you live near San Jose, CA, you could pick it up, otherwise it's going to be $250 including shipping, but it's a complete assembly. Good photos if you want to see what you could make to replace it, too.
HTH!
Bill in OKC
On Sunday, February 17, 2019, 11:05:59 AM CST, Stan Gorodenski <stanlep@...> wrote:
Thanks, Carvel. Yes, I knew the countershaft arrangement is homemade. It is because of this that I am going to have to redo what he did to make room for the back gears when I get them (which should arrive in a few days). In the process I am thinking of trying to get back to 16 speeds, in a homemade manner but it won't be easy to do, at least for me. One solution is to buy some of the parts on ebay, brackets and all, but at this point I am not sure I would be getting everything I need. As someone mentioned, he doesn't envy me trying to restore it. I do not either and am not sure just how far I want to go.
Thanks for the link. Those are sure beautiful machines. I see now Atlas had mounted the countershaft arrangement up high and close to the lathe and the motor down low and close to the lathe, I assume to reduce the torque from so much weight hanging out the back end. Stan
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On 2/17/2019 12:27 AM, cwlathes wrote: Stan ,
The countershaft arrangement in your picture is also homemade . . .
Please have a look at the following link . . . . .
This shows very nicely two lathes with two different countershafts that were available . . .
The first is an earlier ?¡°10D¡± with a one piece carriage , and a vertical countershaft ( which was also available for the 10F)
The second is a ¡°10F¡± with two piece carriage ( separate apron) , and a horizontal countershaft . . .
You will also note the that the pulley arrangements were to all intents and purposes the same as the badge which has been posted on this thread . .
Hope this helps ,
Carvel
*From:*[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Stan Gorodenski *Sent:* 17 February 2019 01:14 AM *To:* [email protected] *Subject:* Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced
Forgot to attach. Here it is.
On 2/16/2019 3:55 PM, Stan Gorodenski wrote:
I am not convinced my 10F lathe originally had 16 speeds. Robert had estimated its vintage is about 1953 or 1954. As? I mentioned in a previous email message my lathe is a real frankenstein. I did not realize the back gear, the bull gear, the gear attached to the spindle pulley assembly, and the collar were all gone until many years later. Other significant changes were made, including discarding the original brackets for the motor.
However, I feel pretty certain my friend (who died about 3 years ago) used the original pulleys of what I think is called the counterbalance. Attached is an image of it. It looks original to me and you can see the large pulley (that the belt from the motor is attached to) is just one pulley, not two side by side. The images in the document called "Atlas Parts list for 10"-F Series Atlas Lathes" also show the large power pulley being just one pulley, not composed to two side by side. All this tells me that my lathe originally came out as an 8 speed lathe, not a 16.
I don't know if the original motor was kept while it was being frankensteinized, but the motor it has turns at 1725 RPM.
I am in the process of trying to get it back to the original 8 speed. I ordered and am getting the back gears, the bull gear, the small spindle gear, and the collar behind the small gear. I have the manual my friend gave me when I bought the lathe. It is pretty beat up and I think it is supposed to be the manual for my lathe, but it describes the 12" and 6", not the 10". Therefore, I do not know what the maximum direct drive spindle rpm for my lathe is supposed to be. From what I read, it is the surface speed, not RPM of the spindle, that is important in for machining various metals. The circumference of a 12" swing for the 12" lathe is 37.7". For my 10" lathe it is 31.42". The 12" swing covers a distance of 37.7" in one revolution of the spindle, but for my lathe it only covers 31.42". Therefore, the spindle rpm for my lathe has to be increased by 37/7/31.42. The max direct rpm for the 12" is 2072 and so this means the direct drive rpm for my 10" has to be? 2486 for the surface speeds to be equal between the two swings (the 12" and the 10").
2486 seems to be too fast an rpm for my 10" lathe. Is this correct"? Stan
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Robert, I have the "Atlas Manual of Lathe Operation". This is the beat up manual I made reference to earlier. The reprint date on it is 1961. It does not include the 10", just the 12" and 6", as far as I can tell. A couple years ago I went all through this searching the internet for these manuals and could not find a pdf for the 10". One of the souces was
Maybe I missed something there. Is there a web site where I can get this manual? Stan
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On 2/17/2019 1:14 AM, Robert Downs via Groups.Io wrote: You are correct in saying that the surface speed is important when machining on a lathe.? But surface speed depends upon spindle RPM and diameter of the part.? It has nothing to do with what the swing of the lathe is, other than that you obviously can¡¯t machine a part larger in diameter than the swing.? You need to get a copy of the Atlas Manual of Lathe Operations (MOLO) that matches the 10F.? Download and read the MOLO history and version selection document from Files.? Prior to 1954, you can¡¯t tell the version from information on the Copyright page because all 15 Editions just say Copyright 1937.
There is a diameter versus RPM versus SFM chart in the MOLO.
Robert Downs
*From:*[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Stan Gorodenski *Sent:* Saturday, February 16, 2019 17:14 *To:* [email protected] *Subject:* Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced
Therefore, the spindle rpm for my lathe has to be increased by 37/7/31.42. The max direct rpm for the 12" is 2072 and so this means the direct drive rpm for my 10" has to be? 2486 for the surface speeds to be equal between the two swings (the 12" and the 10")
2486 seems to be too fast an rpm for my 10" lathe. Is this correct"? Stan
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Thanks, Robert. "How yours lost those parts we will probably never know." I will never know, but I have a strong suspicion. My friend's father was also a machinist and I suspected he inherited (not by death) the lathe from his father. His father was a well known scrounger who bartered and wheel dealed to get things. He probably got this incomplete lathe because it was a good bargain to him. Stan
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On 2/17/2019 12:55 AM, Robert Downs via Groups.Io wrote: Stan,
Although the 4-step cone pulley on your shop-made Countershaft assembly looks original, and probably is, the slightly larger single step pulley next to it on the countershaft hanger assembly definitely is not.? The original motor pulley and the original pulley on the countershaft that it drives are both originally 2-step.? If you think that some drawing or photograph shows otherwise, it is only because the motor pulley isn¡¯t visible and the smaller step on the 2-Step countershaft pulley isn¡¯t visible because the photo or drawing shows what you would see if you were standing to the right of the headstock.? On the 9-427 Pulley, the OD of the larger step is 9.0¡±.? The OD of the smaller step is only 7.5¡±.? With the smaller step outboard, you do not have to be very far to the right of the pulley before the smaller step disappears.
Although in the early years, around 1935, Atlas offered what they called Unit Plan 10¡± lathes as did Sears with the 12¡± except that they called it something else. ?The lathes were offered without back gears, lead screw, change gears, countershaft, compound, carriage, etc.? These were called the 10A, 10B and 10C.? When the 10D came out, the A,B,C were replaced by the 10E.? It was missing the back gears, countershaft, lead screw and change gears but had the other things.? When the 10F came out, that ceased.? The 10 F in the early years was available with Vertical or Horizontal Countershaft and with Babbit or Timken bearings.? So far as the basic lathe was concerned, those were your only choices.
How yours lost those parts we will probably never know.? But when it came off of the Assembly Line, if it was a 10F, it was a 16-speed machine.
Robert Downs
*From:*[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Stan Gorodenski *Sent:* Saturday, February 16, 2019 17:14 *To:* [email protected] *Subject:* Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced
Forgot to attach. Here it is.
On 2/16/2019 3:55 PM, Stan Gorodenski wrote:
I am not convinced my 10F lathe originally had 16 speeds. Robert had estimated its vintage is about 1953 or 1954. As? I mentioned in a previous email message my lathe is a real frankenstein. I did not realize the back gear, the bull gear, the gear attached to the spindle pulley assembly, and the collar were all gone until many years later. Other significant changes were made, including discarding the original brackets for the motor.
However, I feel pretty certain my friend (who died about 3 years ago) used the original pulleys of what I think is called the counterbalance. Attached is an image of it. It looks original to me and you can see the large pulley (that the belt from the motor is attached to) is just one pulley, not two side by side. The images in the document called "Atlas Parts list for 10"-F Series Atlas Lathes" also show the large power pulley being just one pulley, not composed to two side by side. All this tells me that my lathe originally came out as an 8 speed lathe, not a 16.
I don't know if the original motor was kept while it was being frankensteinized, but the motor it has turns at 1725 RPM.
I am in the process of trying to get it back to the original 8 speed. I ordered and am getting the back gears, the bull gear, the small spindle gear, and the collar behind the small gear. I have the manual my friend gave me when I bought the lathe. It is pretty beat up and I think it is supposed to be the manual for my lathe, but it describes the 12" and 6", not the 10". Therefore, I do not know what the maximum direct drive spindle rpm for my lathe is supposed to be. From what I read, it is the surface speed, not RPM of the spindle, that is important in for machining various metals. The circumference of a 12" swing for the 12" lathe is 37.7". For my 10" lathe it is 31.42". The 12" swing covers a distance of 37.7" in one revolution of the spindle, but for my lathe it only covers 31.42". Therefore, the spindle rpm for my lathe has to be increased by 37/7/31.42. The max direct rpm for the 12" is 2072 and so this means the direct drive rpm for my 10" has to be? 2486 for the surface speeds to be equal between the two swings (the 12" and the 10")
2486 seems to be too fast an rpm for my 10" lathe. Is this correct"? Stan
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Thanks, Carvel. Yes, I knew the countershaft arrangement is homemade. It is because of this that I am going to have to redo what he did to make room for the back gears when I get them (which should arrive in a few days). In the process I am thinking of trying to get back to 16 speeds, in a homemade manner but it won't be easy to do, at least for me. One solution is to buy some of the parts on ebay, brackets and all, but at this point I am not sure I would be getting everything I need. As someone mentioned, he doesn't envy me trying to restore it. I do not either and am not sure just how far I want to go.
Thanks for the link. Those are sure beautiful machines. I see now Atlas had mounted the countershaft arrangement up high and close to the lathe and the motor down low and close to the lathe, I assume to reduce the torque from so much weight hanging out the back end. Stan
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On 2/17/2019 12:27 AM, cwlathes wrote: Stan ,
The countershaft arrangement in your picture is also homemade . . .
Please have a look at the following link . . . . .
This shows very nicely two lathes with two different countershafts that were available . . .
The first is an earlier ?¡°10D¡± with a one piece carriage , and a vertical countershaft ( which was also available for the 10F)
The second is a ¡°10F¡± with two piece carriage ( separate apron) , and a horizontal countershaft . . .
You will also note the that the pulley arrangements were to all intents and purposes the same as the badge which has been posted on this thread . .
Hope this helps ,
Carvel
*From:*[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Stan Gorodenski *Sent:* 17 February 2019 01:14 AM *To:* [email protected] *Subject:* Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced
Forgot to attach. Here it is.
On 2/16/2019 3:55 PM, Stan Gorodenski wrote:
I am not convinced my 10F lathe originally had 16 speeds. Robert had estimated its vintage is about 1953 or 1954. As? I mentioned in a previous email message my lathe is a real frankenstein. I did not realize the back gear, the bull gear, the gear attached to the spindle pulley assembly, and the collar were all gone until many years later. Other significant changes were made, including discarding the original brackets for the motor.
However, I feel pretty certain my friend (who died about 3 years ago) used the original pulleys of what I think is called the counterbalance. Attached is an image of it. It looks original to me and you can see the large pulley (that the belt from the motor is attached to) is just one pulley, not two side by side. The images in the document called "Atlas Parts list for 10"-F Series Atlas Lathes" also show the large power pulley being just one pulley, not composed to two side by side. All this tells me that my lathe originally came out as an 8 speed lathe, not a 16.
I don't know if the original motor was kept while it was being frankensteinized, but the motor it has turns at 1725 RPM.
I am in the process of trying to get it back to the original 8 speed. I ordered and am getting the back gears, the bull gear, the small spindle gear, and the collar behind the small gear. I have the manual my friend gave me when I bought the lathe. It is pretty beat up and I think it is supposed to be the manual for my lathe, but it describes the 12" and 6", not the 10". Therefore, I do not know what the maximum direct drive spindle rpm for my lathe is supposed to be. From what I read, it is the surface speed, not RPM of the spindle, that is important in for machining various metals. The circumference of a 12" swing for the 12" lathe is 37.7". For my 10" lathe it is 31.42". The 12" swing covers a distance of 37.7" in one revolution of the spindle, but for my lathe it only covers 31.42". Therefore, the spindle rpm for my lathe has to be increased by 37/7/31.42. The max direct rpm for the 12" is 2072 and so this means the direct drive rpm for my 10" has to be? 2486 for the surface speeds to be equal between the two swings (the 12" and the 10").
2486 seems to be too fast an rpm for my 10" lathe. Is this correct"? Stan
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If you look at any motor pulley drawing other the MK-II from any decade, they are all 2-step.? Unlike your setup, the large 2-step pulley on the countershaft is outboard of the bearing.? Someone at the factory in about 1934 decided that the larger step should be next to the bearing. Which puts the smaller step nearer the motor in all but one case (some drawings or photos of the 6¡± where the motor hangs out to the left, making the lathe take up more space on the bench). ?For whatever reason (including it was easier to draw) all exploded view countershaft drawings for 10¡± and early 12¡± are from the right instead of the left.? So the smaller step on the large 2-step just doesn¡¯t show. ? Robert Downs ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Stan Gorodenski Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 20:04 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced? Jon, Thanks. From your response one would conclude that my lathe was a 16 speed. However, how does one reconcile the images in the Atlas parts list? As I mentioned, the images look like the pulley (what I call the power pulley) that goes to the motor is just one pulley, not two side by side. I suppose my friend could have used the 4 pulley assembly but swapped out the original double power pulley for just one pulley, but, again, there are the parts drawings in the parts list that show a single pulley. Stan
On 2/16/2019 5:56 PM, Jon Elson wrote: On 02/16/2019 04:55 PM, Stan Gorodenski wrote:
I am not convinced my 10F lathe originally had 16 speeds. Robert had estimated its vintage is about 1953 or 1954.
Well, all 10 and 12" Atlas and Craftsman lathes I've encountered had basically the same setup. A belt with 2 positions from motor to countershaft, and then a 4-position belt from countershaft to cone pulley on the spindle. That gives 8 speeds. Then, you have the back gear, so now that gives 16 speeds.
Jon
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Robert and friends, ? I would just like to point out that this is only valid for the original Atlas ¡°Home Market¡±? ( smile )
A four pole motor will run at 1750 rpm on a 60Hz ( c/s) supply as found in North America , but for the majority of the rest of the world with 50Hz (c/s) supplies , the motors run at 1500 rpm ( no load ) and around 1425rpm under full load
With my Austrian Maximat lathe the motor / headstock pulley combination comes out in two sizes for either 50Hz or 60Hz supplies . . .?
Enjoy your day , ? Carvel ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Robert Downs via Groups.Io Sent: 17 February 2019 10:51 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced? The Atlas 10¡± and Atlas built 12¡± came with the same 16 RPM list.? As I said before, what surface speed you need to be running depends upon three things ¨C diameter of the work piece, material and sometimes heat treat condition ?of the work piece, and composition or type of cutter.? Swing of the lathe is never in the equation because you can¡¯t swing a part that is larger than the lathe. ? The 16 nominal speeds that all 10¡± and 12¡± Atlas machines will do are: ? 2072 1270 805 685 500 418 345 266 211 164 134 112 83 70 45 28 ? I think that the chart was originally based on a motor with an average RPM of 1725.? 1740 and 1750 are more commonly quoted today but the difference is only 1.5%. ? The surface speed chart in the MOLO actually gives the nearest standard available speeds ? ? ? Robert Downs ? ? However, aside from an argument of how to determine surface speed or equate rpm to surface speed, the main point of my post was to find out what the max rpm, as it came from the factory, is for my lathe. It had to have come out with this max rpm, whatever it may have been, for a reason. So, what was the max rpm as it came out from the factory? Does anyone know? 2486 seems too high to me.
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The Atlas 10¡± and Atlas built 12¡± came with the same 16 RPM list.? As I said before, what surface speed you need to be running depends upon three things ¨C diameter of the work piece, material and sometimes heat treat condition ?of the work piece, and composition or type of cutter.? Swing of the lathe is never in the equation because you can¡¯t swing a part that is larger than the lathe. ? The 16 nominal speeds that all 10¡± and 12¡± Atlas machines will do are: ? 2072 1270 805 685 500 418 345 266 211 164 134 112 83 70 45 28 ? I think that the chart was originally based on a motor with an average RPM of 1725.? 1740 and 1750 are more commonly quoted today but the difference is only 1.5%. ? The surface speed chart in the MOLO actually gives the nearest standard available speeds ? ? ? Robert Downs ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Stan Gorodenski Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 18:42 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced? However, aside from an argument of how to determine surface speed or equate rpm to surface speed, the main point of my post was to find out what the max rpm, as it came from the factory, is for my lathe. It had to have come out with this max rpm, whatever it may have been, for a reason. So, what was the max rpm as it came out from the factory? Does anyone know? 2486 seems too high to me.
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You are correct in saying that the surface speed is important when machining on a lathe.? But surface speed depends upon spindle RPM and diameter of the part.? It has nothing to do with what the swing of the lathe is, other than that you obviously can¡¯t machine a part larger in diameter than the swing.? You need to get a copy of the Atlas Manual of Lathe Operations (MOLO) that matches the 10F.? Download and read the MOLO history and version selection document from Files.? Prior to 1954, you can¡¯t tell the version from information on the Copyright page because all 15 Editions just say Copyright 1937. ? There is a diameter versus RPM versus SFM chart in the MOLO. ? Robert Downs ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Stan Gorodenski Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 17:14 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced? Therefore, the spindle rpm for my lathe has to be increased by 37/7/31.42. The max direct rpm for the 12" is 2072 and so this means the direct drive rpm for my 10" has to be? 2486 for the surface speeds to be equal between the two swings (the 12" and the 10")
2486 seems to be too fast an rpm for my 10" lathe. Is this correct"? Stan
|
Stan, ? Although the 4-step cone pulley on your shop-made Countershaft assembly looks original, and probably is, the slightly larger single step pulley next to it on the countershaft hanger assembly definitely is not.? The original motor pulley and the original pulley on the countershaft that it drives are both originally 2-step.? If you think that some drawing or photograph shows otherwise, it is only because the motor pulley isn¡¯t visible and the smaller step on the 2-Step countershaft pulley isn¡¯t visible because the photo or drawing shows what you would see if you were standing to the right of the headstock.? On the 9-427 Pulley, the OD of the larger step is 9.0¡±.? The OD of the smaller step is only 7.5¡±.? With the smaller step outboard, you do not have to be very far to the right of the pulley before the smaller step disappears. ? Although in the early years, around 1935, Atlas offered what they called Unit Plan 10¡± lathes as did Sears with the 12¡± except that they called it something else. ?The lathes were offered without back gears, lead screw, change gears, countershaft, compound, carriage, etc.? These were called the 10A, 10B and 10C.? When the 10D came out, the A,B,C were replaced by the 10E.? It was missing the back gears, countershaft, lead screw and change gears but had the other things.? When the 10F came out, that ceased.? The 10 F in the early years was available with Vertical or Horizontal Countershaft and with Babbit or Timken bearings.? So far as the basic lathe was concerned, those were your only choices. ? How yours lost those parts we will probably never know.? But when it came off of the Assembly Line, if it was a 10F, it was a 16-speed machine. ? Robert Downs ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Stan Gorodenski Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 17:14 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced? Forgot to attach. Here it is.
On 2/16/2019 3:55 PM, Stan Gorodenski wrote: I am not convinced my 10F lathe originally had 16 speeds. Robert had estimated its vintage is about 1953 or 1954. As? I mentioned in a previous email message my lathe is a real frankenstein. I did not realize the back gear, the bull gear, the gear attached to the spindle pulley assembly, and the collar were all gone until many years later. Other significant changes were made, including discarding the original brackets for the motor.
However, I feel pretty certain my friend (who died about 3 years ago) used the original pulleys of what I think is called the counterbalance. Attached is an image of it. It looks original to me and you can see the large pulley (that the belt from the motor is attached to) is just one pulley, not two side by side. The images in the document called "Atlas Parts list for 10"-F Series Atlas Lathes" also show the large power pulley being just one pulley, not composed to two side by side. All this tells me that my lathe originally came out as an 8 speed lathe, not a 16.
I don't know if the original motor was kept while it was being frankensteinized, but the motor it has turns at 1725 RPM.
I am in the process of trying to get it back to the original 8 speed. I ordered and am getting the back gears, the bull gear, the small spindle gear, and the collar behind the small gear. I have the manual my friend gave me when I bought the lathe. It is pretty beat up and I think it is supposed to be the manual for my lathe, but it describes the 12" and 6", not the 10". Therefore, I do not know what the maximum direct drive spindle rpm for my lathe is supposed to be. From what I read, it is the surface speed, not RPM of the spindle, that is important in for machining various metals. The circumference of a 12" swing for the 12" lathe is 37.7". For my 10" lathe it is 31.42". The 12" swing covers a distance of 37.7" in one revolution of the spindle, but for my lathe it only covers 31.42". Therefore, the spindle rpm for my lathe has to be increased by 37/7/31.42. The max direct rpm for the 12" is 2072 and so this means the direct drive rpm for my 10" has to be? 2486 for the surface speeds to be equal between the two swings (the 12" and the 10")
2486 seems to be too fast an rpm for my 10" lathe. Is this correct"? Stan
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Re: Atlas MF horizontal mill, power feed gears
Thanks, Robert. I've downloaded it also, as I also have an MF milling machine. On the 32" TV I'm using as a monitor, it is sharp and readable.
Bill in OKC
On Sunday, February 17, 2019, 1:09:22 AM CST, Robert Downs via Groups.Io <wa5cab@...> wrote:
OK.? Best that I could do within the constraints of 8-1/2x11 was 150% enlargement spread over two pages.? ? Go to the group¡¯s site on groups.io.? Go to Files.? Go down to ? 26 Manuals, Atlas or Atlas-Craftsman Horizontal Mills ? And click on that.? On the next screen, find ? Atlas Mill Bulletin MMB5 Pg5 For MF_MFA_MFB.pdf ? and click on that.? Follow the instructions to download the PDF. ? Robert Downs ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of j7g3jj via Groups.Io Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 13:52 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Atlas MF horizontal mill, power feed gears ? My printer is only capable of printing 8.5 X 11 sheets.
Thanks.
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Stan , ? The countershaft arrangement in your picture is also homemade . . .?
Please have a look at the following link . . . . .
This shows very nicely two lathes with two different countershafts that were available . . .
The first is an earlier ?¡°10D¡± with a one piece carriage , and a vertical countershaft ( which was also available for the 10F)
The second is a ¡°10F¡± with two piece carriage ( separate apron) , and a horizontal countershaft . . .
You will also note the that the pulley arrangements were to all intents and purposes the same as the badge which has been posted on this thread . .?
Hope this helps , ? Carvel ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Stan Gorodenski Sent: 17 February 2019 01:14 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced ? Forgot to attach. Here it is.
On 2/16/2019 3:55 PM, Stan Gorodenski wrote: I am not convinced my 10F lathe originally had 16 speeds. Robert had estimated its vintage is about 1953 or 1954. As? I mentioned in a previous email message my lathe is a real frankenstein. I did not realize the back gear, the bull gear, the gear attached to the spindle pulley assembly, and the collar were all gone until many years later. Other significant changes were made, including discarding the original brackets for the motor.
However, I feel pretty certain my friend (who died about 3 years ago) used the original pulleys of what I think is called the counterbalance. Attached is an image of it. It looks original to me and you can see the large pulley (that the belt from the motor is attached to) is just one pulley, not two side by side. The images in the document called "Atlas Parts list for 10"-F Series Atlas Lathes" also show the large power pulley being just one pulley, not composed to two side by side. All this tells me that my lathe originally came out as an 8 speed lathe, not a 16.
I don't know if the original motor was kept while it was being frankensteinized, but the motor it has turns at 1725 RPM.
I am in the process of trying to get it back to the original 8 speed. I ordered and am getting the back gears, the bull gear, the small spindle gear, and the collar behind the small gear. I have the manual my friend gave me when I bought the lathe. It is pretty beat up and I think it is supposed to be the manual for my lathe, but it describes the 12" and 6", not the 10". Therefore, I do not know what the maximum direct drive spindle rpm for my lathe is supposed to be. From what I read, it is the surface speed, not RPM of the spindle, that is important in for machining various metals. The circumference of a 12" swing for the 12" lathe is 37.7". For my 10" lathe it is 31.42". The 12" swing covers a distance of 37.7" in one revolution of the spindle, but for my lathe it only covers 31.42". Therefore, the spindle rpm for my lathe has to be increased by 37/7/31.42. The max direct rpm for the 12" is 2072 and so this means the direct drive rpm for my 10" has to be? 2486 for the surface speeds to be equal between the two swings (the 12" and the 10").
2486 seems to be too fast an rpm for my 10" lathe. Is this correct"? Stan
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Re: Atlas MF horizontal mill, power feed gears
OK.? Best that I could do within the constraints of 8-1/2x11 was 150% enlargement spread over two pages.? ? Go to the group¡¯s site on groups.io.? Go to Files.? Go down to ? 26 Manuals, Atlas or Atlas-Craftsman Horizontal Mills ? And click on that.? On the next screen, find ? Atlas Mill Bulletin MMB5 Pg5 For MF_MFA_MFB.pdf ? and click on that.? Follow the instructions to download the PDF. ? Robert Downs ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of j7g3jj via Groups.Io Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 13:52 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Atlas MF horizontal mill, power feed gears? My printer is only capable of printing 8.5 X 11 sheets.
Thanks.
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Then 2072 should be your max speed, and no need to loosen or tighten bearing caps. Should make it easier, anyway. I'm not envying you trying to restore it to original condition, but ebay has a lot of Atlas/Craftsman parts. Hold on to your wallet, though!
Bill in OKC
On Saturday, February 16, 2019, 11:54:35 PM CST, Stan Gorodenski <stanlep@...> wrote:
Bill, I have the tapered bearings. Stan
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On 2/16/2019 10:41 PM, Bill in OKC too via Groups.Io wrote: Stan, I don't see where you've mentioned the type of bearing you have in your lathe. That can make a difference. I have what Robert tells me is the correct manual for my TH42, with Timken bearings. On page 10, under Bearing Adjustment, and referring to babbitt bearings, it says to loosen the bearing cap screws between 1/8-1/4 turn for speeds over 805rpm. When you're going back to lower speeds, or heavier cuts, you're supposed to tighten them again to maintain the correct bearing clearances. Next page says the Timken bearings are recommended for high spindle speeds for long intervals or for continuous production work with no adjustment. Page 47, on the machining of various materials, has a chart that shows 8 speeds of 164-2072rpm in direct drive depending on the pulley steps, and exclusive of the back gear. Back gear gives 8 steps from 28-345rpm.
I have a pdf copy of the MOLO for the the Sears Master Craftsman lathe. It's different from the one for my TH42 in some places, but the info on page 10 is nearly identical. It doesn't have the chart on page 47, but a different spindle speed chart is on page 49 in both books, and lists the minimum and maximum speeds as 28 & 2072rpm. I think I'd figure 2072rpm as the max speed for either 10 or 12 inch lathes
HTH!
Bill in OKC
On Saturday, February 16, 2019, 6:41:56 PM CST, Stan Gorodenski <stanlep@...> wrote:
I think we all agree because I did take into account surface speed if you read my email. I am assuming the max rpm was set by Atlas to whatever it is by some considerations that have to do with possible surface speeds one might encounter. I don't think they just randomly selected a max rpm. Therefore, if Atlas had determined, which seems reasonable, that the max rpm for the 12" lathe is related to the max surface speed one might need, then to get an equivalent rpm for the 10" should be what I had suggested.
However, aside from an argument of how to determine surface speed or equate rpm to surface speed, the main point of my post was to find out what the max rpm, as it came from the factory, is for my lathe. It had to have come out with this max rpm, whatever it may have been, for a reason. So, what was the max rpm as it came out from the factory? Does anyone know? 2486 seems too high to me.
Also, can anyone confirm that the number of speeds for my lathe was 8 as it came from the factory, not 16? I think it was 8 based on what I said in my previous post and the image I had attached. Stan
On 2/16/2019 5:22 PM, Dave Matticks wrote:
Surface speed for cutting is only related to rpm whether turning, milling, drilling, grinding, whatever. Easy to remember formula: 3.82¡Á desired surface feet per minute ¡Â diameter of whatever is rotating = rpm. Doesn't need to be perfect, always exceptions. It's a start though. Tool and workpiece material dictate what could work. Dave Matticks
Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
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Don't forget that money was worth more then, and harder to come by. My mom bought a 1965 Mustang for about $2500 in 1965, IIRC. I was about 10. There was a gas war going on between the gas stations across the street from our apartment, on opposite corners. $0.17 per gallon. Mom was back to waitressing after the divorce, and a dime tip was good money.
Bill in OKC
On Saturday, February 16, 2019, 10:20:04 PM CST, Stan Gorodenski <stanlep@...> wrote:
I now realize, from catalogue pages someone privately emailed me, that although the speeds given in the beat up manual I have are for a 12" they are also the speeds for a 10F. So, my confusion is cleared up. It came from the factory with 16 speed and the speeds are the same as those listed for the 12". When I see these old catalogues, I think how nice it would be to be able to go back in time to buy one. Stan
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On 2/16/2019 8:52 PM, Stan Gorodenski wrote: The badge didn't come with the lathe I have. Maybe it got trashed somehow over the years. The beat up manual I have that is supposed to be for the lathe, at least I thought so, has this image, but it is for a 12". Stan
On 2/16/2019 7:47 PM, Larry Hoelscher wrote:
Here is the badge that came with the lathe.? It should also appear in your lathe manual.
On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 8:14 PM Stan Gorodenski <stanlep@... <mailto:stanlep@...>> wrote:
On 2/16/2019 6:20 PM, David Beierl wrote:
Top speed of the 618 is about 3600 rpm.? Again, it's for small-diameter work that you want the higher speeds.
Hmmm. I guess you are right. I was approaching it from the the other direction. I this case there would be no reason for the max spindle rpm of the 10" to be higher than that of the 12". I'm not familiar with all this terminology - what is the 618? Stan
Yrs, d
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Larry, that is essentially the chart that I described on page 47 in the manual for my 10F/TH42. There is no chart like that in the Sears Master Craftsman manual I have. Page 47 in that book is blank except for "Part 4 The Machining of Various Materials
HTH!
Bill in OKC
On Saturday, February 16, 2019, 8:48:22 PM CST, Larry Hoelscher <lgh1330@...> wrote:
Here is the badge that came with the lathe.? It should also appear in your lathe manual.
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On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 8:14 PM Stan Gorodenski < stanlep@...> wrote: On 2/16/2019 6:20 PM, David Beierl wrote:
Top speed of the 618 is about 3600 rpm.? Again, it's for small-diameter work that you want the higher speeds. Hmmm. I guess you are right. I was approaching it from the the other direction. I this case there would be no reason for the max spindle rpm of the 10" to be higher than that of the 12". I'm not familiar with all this terminology - what is the 618? Stan
Yrs, d
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Bill, I have the tapered bearings. Stan
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On 2/16/2019 10:41 PM, Bill in OKC too via Groups.Io wrote: Stan, I don't see where you've mentioned the type of bearing you have in your lathe. That can make a difference. I have what Robert tells me is the correct manual for my TH42, with Timken bearings. On page 10, under Bearing Adjustment, and referring to babbitt bearings, it says to loosen the bearing cap screws between 1/8-1/4 turn for speeds over 805rpm. When you're going back to lower speeds, or heavier cuts, you're supposed to tighten them again to maintain the correct bearing clearances. Next page says the Timken bearings are recommended for high spindle speeds for long intervals or for continuous production work with no adjustment. Page 47, on the machining of various materials, has a chart that shows 8 speeds of 164-2072rpm in direct drive depending on the pulley steps, and exclusive of the back gear. Back gear gives 8 steps from 28-345rpm.
I have a pdf copy of the MOLO for the the Sears Master Craftsman lathe. It's different from the one for my TH42 in some places, but the info on page 10 is nearly identical. It doesn't have the chart on page 47, but a different spindle speed chart is on page 49 in both books, and lists the minimum and maximum speeds as 28 & 2072rpm. I think I'd figure 2072rpm as the max speed for either 10 or 12 inch lathes
HTH!
Bill in OKC
On Saturday, February 16, 2019, 6:41:56 PM CST, Stan Gorodenski <stanlep@...> wrote:
I think we all agree because I did take into account surface speed if you read my email. I am assuming the max rpm was set by Atlas to whatever it is by some considerations that have to do with possible surface speeds one might encounter. I don't think they just randomly selected a max rpm. Therefore, if Atlas had determined, which seems reasonable, that the max rpm for the 12" lathe is related to the max surface speed one might need, then to get an equivalent rpm for the 10" should be what I had suggested.
However, aside from an argument of how to determine surface speed or equate rpm to surface speed, the main point of my post was to find out what the max rpm, as it came from the factory, is for my lathe. It had to have come out with this max rpm, whatever it may have been, for a reason. So, what was the max rpm as it came out from the factory? Does anyone know? 2486 seems too high to me.
Also, can anyone confirm that the number of speeds for my lathe was 8 as it came from the factory, not 16? I think it was 8 based on what I said in my previous post and the image I had attached. Stan
On 2/16/2019 5:22 PM, Dave Matticks wrote:
Surface speed for cutting is only related to rpm whether turning, milling, drilling, grinding, whatever. Easy to remember formula: 3.82¡Á desired surface feet per minute ¡Â diameter of whatever is rotating = rpm. Doesn't need to be perfect, always exceptions. It's a start though. Tool and workpiece material dictate what could work. Dave Matticks
Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
|
Stan, I don't see where you've mentioned the type of bearing you have in your lathe. That can make a difference. I have what Robert tells me is the correct manual for my TH42, with Timken bearings. On page 10, under Bearing Adjustment, and referring to babbitt bearings, it says to loosen the bearing cap screws between 1/8-1/4 turn for speeds over 805rpm. When you're going back to lower speeds, or heavier cuts, you're supposed to tighten them again to maintain the correct bearing clearances. Next page says the Timken bearings are recommended for high spindle speeds for long intervals or for continuous production work with no adjustment. Page 47, on the machining of various materials, has a chart that shows 8 speeds of 164-2072rpm in direct drive depending on the pulley steps, and exclusive of the back gear. Back gear gives 8 steps from 28-345rpm.
I have a pdf copy of the MOLO for the the Sears Master Craftsman lathe. It's different from the one for my TH42 in some places, but the info on page 10 is nearly identical. It doesn't have the chart on page 47, but a different spindle speed chart is on page 49 in both books, and lists the minimum and maximum speeds as 28 & 2072rpm. I think I'd figure 2072rpm as the max speed for either 10 or 12 inch lathes
HTH!
Bill in OKC
On Saturday, February 16, 2019, 6:41:56 PM CST, Stan Gorodenski <stanlep@...> wrote:
I think we all agree because I did take into account surface speed if you read my email. I am assuming the max rpm was set by Atlas to whatever it is by some considerations that have to do with possible surface speeds one might encounter. I don't think they just randomly selected a max rpm. Therefore, if Atlas had determined, which seems reasonable, that the max rpm for the 12" lathe is related to the max surface speed one might need, then to get an equivalent rpm for the 10" should be what I had suggested.
However, aside from an argument of how to determine surface speed or equate rpm to surface speed, the main point of my post was to find out what the max rpm, as it came from the factory, is for my lathe. It had to have come out with this max rpm, whatever it may have been, for a reason. So, what was the max rpm as it came out from the factory? Does anyone know? 2486 seems too high to me.
Also, can anyone confirm that the number of speeds for my lathe was 8 as it came from the factory, not 16? I think it was 8 based on what I said in my previous post and the image I had attached. Stan
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On 2/16/2019 5:22 PM, Dave Matticks wrote: Surface speed for cutting is only related to rpm whether turning, milling, drilling, grinding, whatever. Easy to remember formula: 3.82¡Á desired surface feet per minute ¡Â diameter of whatever is rotating = rpm. Doesn't need to be perfect, always exceptions. It's a start though. Tool and workpiece material dictate what could work. Dave Matticks
Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
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